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The depth of combat in GW2.

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  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    SNIP!

    As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.

    The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.

    The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.

    GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.

    Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).

    Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".

    Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?

    Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.

    Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).

    Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.

    Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor  rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.

    That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.

    Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.

    From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?

    I would take GW1's system any day. 

     

    Did GW1 have an abundance of skills at launch? I only played for 10's of hours and started with Nighfall, the game just did not grab me I was an L2 junkie at the time.

    Yes it did. Add the skills from the following two categories:

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_core_skills

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_Prophecies_skills

    In Prophecies, the first GW1 game released, each class has between 72 (mesmer) and 79 (elementalist) skills. Then consider the fact that you have two professions per character and you have about 150 skills to mix and match with.

    By the time they got to Nightfall, each of the core professions had about 140 skills, assassins and ritualists had 110, and paragon and dervish had 85. Not to mention the shared PvE skills and faction based skills.

    Regarding the previous poster who said only a few builds were viable - yeah that's a lie, only a few builds were popular or overpowered at any one time. That isnt the same as viable.   

    Again just looking at the numbers of skills mean nothing.

    Running an empty skill bar was also a viable way of finishing GW1 PvE.

    Apparently loads of people like to gimp themselves.

    Next people will post wammos with healing hands and mending...

    It is very simple, in any game with limited party sizes if my build out perform yours I get the spot and you get the boot. So only the best builds are viable.

     

     

    No, some people just didn't feel the need to be a sheep. Baaa, baaaa, baaaa.

    Plenty of skill combinations worked well, not everyone had to rely on the current FOTM builds to get through the elite dungeons. 

    Not using typical builds in PvP made it easy to smash the FOTM sheep as well.  

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Again just looking at the numbers of skills mean nothing.

    Running an empty skill bar was also a viable way of finishing GW1 PvE.

    Apparently loads of people like to gimp themselves.

    Next people will post wammos with healing hands and mending...

    It is very simple, in any game with limited party sizes if my build out perform yours I get the spot and you get the boot. So only the best builds are viable.

     

    No, some people just didn't feel the need to be a sheep. Baaa, baaaa, baaaa.

    Plenty of skill combinations worked well, not everyone had to rely on the current FOTM builds to get through the elite dungeons. 

    Not using typical builds in PvP made it easy to smash the FOTM sheep as well.  

    The difference between my posts and yours is that actually I can detail skills, builds, build names, metagame periods.

    Your posts on the other hand are filled with generalities, that might sound good but show no insight into the actual game - "not needing to be a sheep" or "loads of skills work just fine" generally ended up in people pinging builds with ressurection, healing breeze, troll unguent, final thrust, heal party or any non-UA rez with a Monk, Defy Pain, etc.

    It is especially fun because the builds that are better at doing elite hm content have always been those focused in Invicibuilds+spike and that hasn't changed since ursan was nerfed.

    Your typical PvE player was still using Searing Flames heroes when others were already running Sabs or Discord.

    Then your typical PvE player was running Sabs or Discord, with their N/Rt  healers when others were runnin E/Mo Ether renewal healers and finishing slavers and vloxen.

    Of course full guild groups were running Shadow Form tanking (or Terra Tanking) with whatver spike.

    But I bet you will post a few more generalities about sheep or fotm (as if anyone with all the professions at level 20 is concerned about fotm) instead of any shred of evidence you know more about builds (especially 8 or12 men teambuilds) than "there is loads of skills to choose from".

    Also the story of GW1 GvG is filled with examples of FOTM builds winning - ever heard of rawr spike? They won a few months in a row using it and it couldn't be more fotm than that.

    It would be interesting to read what builds you used to finish what dungeons/elite areas before the rit buffs.

    Or even just post some PvE Warrior builds and see how far you can get from my skills selection in this thread or whatever profession you prefer.

     

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    The difference between my posts and yours is that actually I can detail skills, builds, build names, metagame periods.

    Because you can just go to http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page to find the sheep builds used over the years, whereas I would have to have photographic memory of what skill combinations I used over the past 6 years or so.

  • ZizouXZizouX Burbank, CAPosts: 670Member

    I believe GW2 has very deep combat mechanics.  The reason some disagree is that the game is so accessible and so easy to get into, people mistake that with shallow gameplay.

     

    I have an 80 Engineer which offers more versatility, combo finishers, utility and varied playstyles than most other games have between two different classes.

     

    I recently started playing a Guardian.  Check this guide out  https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/guardian/Guide-PVE-Guardian-101-A-Beginner-s-Text  and tell me whether or not Guardian mechanics are shallow.  BTW... copy and paste the guide and you will see it's 50+ pages and its only as to ONE class in GW2.  Guess what, it's a BEGINNERS Guide! Talk about depth.   

     

    The amount of controversy and different opinions this thread has created clearly shows that it's a not a black and white issue of depth vs. shallow.  The fact that there is a heated debate lends in favor of "depth."  

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    SNIP!

    As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.

    The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.

    The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.

    GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.

    Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).

    Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".

    Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?

    Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.

    Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).

    Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.

    Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor  rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.

    That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.

    Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.

    From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?

    I would take GW1's system any day. 

     

    Did GW1 have an abundance of skills at launch? I only played for 10's of hours and started with Nighfall, the game just did not grab me I was an L2 junkie at the time.

    Yes it did. Add the skills from the following two categories:

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_core_skills

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_Prophecies_skills

    In Prophecies, the first GW1 game released, each class has between 72 (mesmer) and 79 (elementalist) skills. Then consider the fact that you have two professions per character and you have about 150 skills to mix and match with.

    By the time they got to Nightfall, each of the core professions had about 140 skills, assassins and ritualists had 110, and paragon and dervish had 85. Not to mention the shared PvE skills and faction based skills.

    Regarding the previous poster who said only a few builds were viable - yeah that's a lie, only a few builds were popular or overpowered at any one time. That isnt the same as viable.   

    Again just looking at the numbers of skills mean nothing.

    Running an empty skill bar was also a viable way of finishing GW1 PvE.

    Apparently loads of people like to gimp themselves.

    Next people will post wammos with healing hands and mending...

    It is very simple, in any game with limited party sizes if my build out perform yours I get the spot and you get the boot. So only the best builds are viable.

     

    OH come on - HH and MENDING WAMMO WAS DA BOMB!!! It is not as much fun as a W/E with meteor Storm in Jade Quarry lol

     

    The problem was wo the 72 skills that mesmer had in GW1, there were many that were so situational to be useless.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • FaelsunFaelsun Brandon, MSPosts: 492Member
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Faelsun

    You can go on and on, however it would be repetitive. No matter what spec  you play it will be a dps spec, the cc effects are marginal and merely exist to accent DPS which is what GW2 pvp is all about, layers of dps. The boredom factor sets in when you realize that you cannot make a functional healer, CC, Support build that is not really just a DPS build with some perks. You quickly find out after a few weeks of never ending theory crafting and searching other builds online, that you are confined to play, conditions, bunker, roamer or some other Crit heavy build.

     

    Its basically like saying there are countless ways to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, it doesn't really mean you have options. In GW2 if you have a build that even uses another RUNE this is different from the other guy who also plays ranger, you feel like you won a small victory. Slave 48 hours theorty crafting your necromancer only to find out some guy named Clerk already came up with the exact same thing down to the armor and weapon sigils.  You of course tried vampirism early on to find out how terrible it was, or some other things that LOOKED really cool. But you ended up with this damn condition build you hate playing, you roll an alt, thinking things will be different with a Mesmer or thief, but no.

    Combat feels empty and dull to me, GW2 pvp is not something people give up as a l2p issue its something that you stop doing because you don't hate yourself.  Just my opinion maybe, but I played a lot of mmorpgs, GW2 pvp combat is fine the first month or so until the lack of debth really sets in.

    Opposed to the awesome PvP MMORPGs where you are CC'ed until you die or CC them until they die or the most healers win.

    And fotm was a word specially coined for GW2, right?

    In other games all the possible builds are equaly viable and succesful and you are a snowflake!

    Healing, dealing damage, supporting and CCing in the same character is boring but spending an entire match/dungeon just healing, ccing, tanking or dealing damage is the pinnacle of diversity and variation.

     

    Oh are you trying to ninja some anti holy trinity arguent in there? The reason I tried GW2 in the first place was the lack of trinity, WvWvW, sPVP and lack of gear grind. The problem  is the inflexibility of the so called hybrids. Healing, damage dealing, support and CC are NOT all on an equal footing, as a matter of fact DPS is clearly the king to such an extent a true hybrid is impossible. The average class is not even as flexible as a WOW Shaman and ALL of them have a DPS focus. Snowflake? How about SOME deviation at all. All classes have not only limited weapon options but those weapon skills are all for the most part DPS focussed. Then about 20 skills that are in 4 or so skill types that are bracketed off and your choices dwindle as you further speciallize down the traits.

    You act as if everyone is not already spending the entire match match just dealing damage and you are right it certainly isnt  the pinnacle of variation.  Just because every class has a mandatory heal slot doesn't make them really hybrids, it feels more like a FPS with a med kit honestly. And the chain CCing and healing in WOW is frustrating however, thier idea of CC in GW2 is laughagle, and healing what a few hundred points a tic compared to how much DPS burst.

    Tell you what you map the amount of DPS per second ANY class in GW2 can do and put it side by side to any other type of Control, healing, fear, etc that it can do and explain to me how that its balanced.

  • Alber_gamerAlber_gamer RomePosts: 557Member Uncommon

    It's very deep. You sometimes press 1, and sometimes press 2. Unless you have 1 set on autoattack, then you just press 2.

     

    No, seriously. It's okay, and fun for a while, but deep? Reminds me of the review that gave GW2 a social score of 8 or 9. The zeal is strong.

    My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  • DraronDraron A town in, KYPosts: 993Member
    It's fun, but not really in depth (IMO at least). 
  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Draron
    It's fun, but not really in depth (IMO at least). 

     

    But why? we have had some examples of why it can be considered deep but not much of why it is shallow, so what makes it shallow? just saying it is doesn't make it so.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,943Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Again just looking at the numbers of skills mean nothing.

    Running an empty skill bar was also a viable way of finishing GW1 PvE.

    Apparently loads of people like to gimp themselves.

    Next people will post wammos with healing hands and mending...

    It is very simple, in any game with limited party sizes if my build out perform yours I get the spot and you get the boot. So only the best builds are viable.

    Only the best builds are viable if you PUG, yes. But when you play with a guild at least my guild are way more interested in resaults than your build and gear.

    We know who is good or not and the good people are the one that gets invited to most runs, but someone playing really good with bad gear and odd builds still gets priority over someone that plays badly with good gear.

    Of course we also try to teach the ropes to players not as good, our guild is based on IRL friends. We did also try to help people with builds in GW1 but some people are rather stubborn.

    If you are good enough you can more or less use any build and still do well, even if you sadly might miss many PUGs. But whenever I do PUG now in GW2 I dont really bother about the groups gear or builds because I frankly think peoples personality is more interesting. Stuff we havnt completed have been to rude idiots who dies more than everyone eklse, try to shift the blame and then disconnects without warning, and my experience is that they often have good gear and builds they copied of the net.

    I can pull a bad group through almost all stuff in PvE (besides the fractal in the swamp, you need 3 good guys for that one minimum) as long as they are willing to listen to advice and arent quiters.I can not stop someon with disfunctional personality to make playing boring or someone to disconnect the first time they die.

    And since guild Vs guild PvP isnt in yet, I only care about gear and specs in tournaments.

    Of course since I play in a guild I help people getting good gear and help out with the speccs as way anyways, even if we do have a few stubborn players like the necro who must have all his minions equipped at the same time...

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    The difference between my posts and yours is that actually I can detail skills, builds, build names, metagame periods.

    Because you can just go to http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page to find the sheep builds used over the years, whereas I would have to have photographic memory of what skill combinations I used over the past 6 years or so.

    I know them because I was an active member of the community.

    Since I was an active member I even know the new builds wiki is http://www.gwpvx.com/PvX_wiki and not the wikia.

    Lastly you assume I'm talking about builds on the wiki that were widely used.

    Anyone involved in the PvE aspect of GW1 knows the PvE is composed by PuG play, Hardcore Guild play, casual guild play, H/H (replaced by player+7 heroes).

    I wasn't even very interested in PuG play or  Hardcore Guild play due to the tank+spike aspect of it.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • fundayzfundayz Chatown, ONPosts: 463Member
    Originally posted by Alber_gamer

    It's very deep. You sometimes press 1, and sometimes press 2. Unless you have 1 set on autoattack, then you just press 2.

     

    No, seriously. It's okay, and fun for a while, but deep? Reminds me of the review that gave GW2 a social score of 8 or 9. The zeal is strong.

    lol yeah go try that in competitive PvP and see what happens.

     

    People making a case against GW2's combat based on PvE is  pointless because the current PvE content doesn't push player skill or mechanics as high as other players can.

  • fundayzfundayz Chatown, ONPosts: 463Member
    Originally posted by Faelsun

    The average class is not even as flexible as a WOW Shaman and ALL of them have a DPS focus. Snowflake? How about SOME deviation at all. All classes have not only limited weapon options but those weapon skills are all for the most part DPS focussed. Then about 20 skills that are in 4 or so skill types that are bracketed off and your choices dwindle as you further speciallize down the traits.

    You act as if everyone is not already spending the entire match match just dealing damage and you are right it certainly isnt  the pinnacle of variation.  Just because every class has a mandatory heal slot doesn't make them really hybrids, it feels more like a FPS with a med kit honestly. And the chain CCing and healing in WOW is frustrating however, thier idea of CC in GW2 is laughagle, and healing what a few hundred points a tic compared to how much DPS burst.t

    Tell you what you map the amount of DPS per second ANY class in GW2 can do and put it side by side to any other type of Control, healing, fear, etc that it can do and explain to me how that its balanced.

    Pretty much all of what you wrote is false.

    The vast majority of weapon skills perform multiple roles, including healing, protecting, crowd control, etc. You are rarely doing JUST DPS, much like you are rarely doing just healing or CC. Not only that but you also ignore the element of positioning and mobility inherent to many skills.

    It isn't all dps... in organized team play team rezzes, stuns, and buffs/conditions are key

    Again, most skills do dmg/heal, dmg/control, heal/support, etc. Damage is somewhat more prevalent and that is on purpose: the devs even said pre-release that offense was always going to break through defence eventually

  • NaeviusNaevius Houston, TXPosts: 334Member Uncommon

    Equipment + traits + weapon swapping + movement...there is a lot of subtle depth to combat. If you don't believe it, just watch good players vs bad ones.

    Some games add a lot of noise to combat (e.g. multiple skills you never even use), but that isn't depth.

     

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Again just looking at the numbers of skills mean nothing.

    Running an empty skill bar was also a viable way of finishing GW1 PvE.

    Apparently loads of people like to gimp themselves.

    Next people will post wammos with healing hands and mending...

    It is very simple, in any game with limited party sizes if my build out perform yours I get the spot and you get the boot. So only the best builds are viable.

    Only the best builds are viable if you PUG, yes. But when you play with a guild at least my guild are way more interested in resaults than your build and gear.

    We know who is good or not and the good people are the one that gets invited to most runs, but someone playing really good with bad gear and odd builds still gets priority over someone that plays badly with good gear.

    Of course we also try to teach the ropes to players not as good, our guild is based on IRL friends. We did also try to help people with builds in GW1 but some people are rather stubborn.

    If you are good enough you can more or less use any build and still do well, even if you sadly might miss many PUGs. But whenever I do PUG now in GW2 I dont really bother about the groups gear or builds because I frankly think peoples personality is more interesting. Stuff we havnt completed have been to rude idiots who dies more than everyone eklse, try to shift the blame and then disconnects without warning, and my experience is that they often have good gear and builds they copied of the net.

    I can pull a bad group through almost all stuff in PvE (besides the fractal in the swamp, you need 3 good guys for that one minimum) as long as they are willing to listen to advice and arent quiters.I can not stop someon with disfunctional personality to make playing boring or someone to disconnect the first time they die.

    And since guild Vs guild PvP isnt in yet, I only care about gear and specs in tournaments.

    Of course since I play in a guild I help people getting good gear and help out with the speccs as way anyways, even if we do have a few stubborn players like the necro who must have all his minions equipped at the same time...

    Again, it isn't about being a bad player or a good player, being able to finish something or not.

    It is about builds and professions balance.

    Self gimping for whatever motive is ok but the game design shouldn't be about that.

    You could finish GW1 PvE naked, with a team smaller than the one give, with an empty skill bar.

    That didn't make professions like the mesmer attractive until it was redone, it didn't make Dervishes any more desirable than Assassins and Warriors running with scythes until it was redone, etc.

    GW2 is less complex than GW1 in the sense it is easier to avoid really bad builds, this is, the difference between a bad build and a good build is much smaller in GW2.

    Additionally the GW2 team build system is less complex in the sense all the professions have useful general skills, instead of narrow skills that had to be specifically picked in the 8x8 build instead of the indivual build.

    On the other hand, GW2 has more viable builds and selecting the appropriate equipment and runes/glyphs/traits is much more important than in GW1.

    Still GW2 isn't totally balanced.

    But some in these threads like to say there is no variation between professions.

    That is complete BS when in the same profession you can have a build that is about staying there spamming a skill and another is based on having 4 dodges in the time the other build would have 2.
     

    And that is an example of many.

    Most people simply look that there is no hard line between the professions (all do a bit of everything albeit in different ways) and call it shallow, as if stitching 3 games together made the game more complex, as if the choice of the tank influenced the healer build and the DPS build and vice-versa.

    Basically they say that since all the professions deal damage, all have a self heal and all have support/control they play the same and that is like saying a WoW protection paladin is the same as a WoW protection warrior or a mage is the same as warlock, since they both tank or they both are ranged magic dps.

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • FaelsunFaelsun Brandon, MSPosts: 492Member
    Originally posted by fundayz
    Originally posted by Faelsun

    The average class is not even as flexible as a WOW Shaman and ALL of them have a DPS focus. Snowflake? How about SOME deviation at all. All classes have not only limited weapon options but those weapon skills are all for the most part DPS focussed. Then about 20 skills that are in 4 or so skill types that are bracketed off and your choices dwindle as you further speciallize down the traits.

    You act as if everyone is not already spending the entire match match just dealing damage and you are right it certainly isnt  the pinnacle of variation.  Just because every class has a mandatory heal slot doesn't make them really hybrids, it feels more like a FPS with a med kit honestly. And the chain CCing and healing in WOW is frustrating however, thier idea of CC in GW2 is laughagle, and healing what a few hundred points a tic compared to how much DPS burst.t

    Tell you what you map the amount of DPS per second ANY class in GW2 can do and put it side by side to any other type of Control, healing, fear, etc that it can do and explain to me how that its balanced.

    Pretty much all of what you wrote is false.

    The vast majority of weapon skills perform multiple roles, including healing, protecting, crowd control, etc. You are rarely doing JUST DPS, much like you are rarely doing just healing or CC. Not only that but you also ignore the element of positioning and mobility inherent to many skills.

    It isn't all dps... in organized team play team rezzes, stuns, and buffs/conditions are key

    Again, most skills do dmg/heal, dmg/control, heal/support, etc. Damage is somewhat more prevalent and that is on purpose: the devs even said pre-release that offense was always going to break through defence eventually

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon

     

    They sometimes perform multiple roles but mostly their primary role is DPS and even more rare than that do they no do dps at all, in rare cases like Cleansing Wave, line of warding etc. do they specialize in healing or CC and those are almost always water elementalist or staff skills.

    You cannot seriously compare the DPS in Gw2 to a few Rez abilities or 1 second fears or stuns.

    It is not "somewhat" more prevalent, it is tremendously more prevalent you CAN specialize in Pure dps witih some kind of Condition, crit damange build but you CANNOT make an even 75% CC/heal spec. Non DPS abilities are at best 25% of your spec and that is in extreme cases, more often than not your non dps abilties exist to allow you to do more dps or take less dps, but DPS is without a doubt king. Which is why pvp is such a shallow dps spam borefest atm.

    Like I said a side by side comparison will reveal the inherit weakness other skills have to dps, take fear skills for instance.

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fear

    Most of which do 1 whole second of fear but also do damange half of them are highly situational or pve only but realistically 5-6  skills over 3 classes only counting in skull fear for thieves if they get lucky enough to use it, realistically 2 classes and usually just Necromancers, compared to say oh I dunno Bleeding.

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleeding

    roughly 100+ skills and weapon skills over every class that do huge sums of damage.

    What you say fear isnt a fair side by side, fine  Daze 22, knockdown 19, Stun 19 .. actually there are more skills that break stun than actual stun skills, all those skill totals combined not only don't even match just ONE dps skill list Bleeding, but the durations of those skills are so low comparitivly there is no comparison as to which are more powerful.

    You think a Mesmer will focus on stacking confusion or a one second stun?

    A necro will sometimes have a one second fear but you think he will be  a heavy condition build of try to do CC?

    Some of the better support options on Ranger and Engineers are mostly ignored because of the obvious power difference of condition stacking.  I doubt you will see many rangers using Shouts, especially no Search and Rescue. But you will see almost half of them using sharpening stones.

    Everybody is DPS with minor skills but no one is Healing with minor DPS or CC with a few conditions, everyone is a Primary DPS.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Faelsun
    Originally posted by fundayz
    Originally posted by Faelsun

    The average class is not even as flexible as a WOW Shaman and ALL of them have a DPS focus. Snowflake? How about SOME deviation at all. All classes have not only limited weapon options but those weapon skills are all for the most part DPS focussed. Then about 20 skills that are in 4 or so skill types that are bracketed off and your choices dwindle as you further speciallize down the traits.

    You act as if everyone is not already spending the entire match match just dealing damage and you are right it certainly isnt  the pinnacle of variation.  Just because every class has a mandatory heal slot doesn't make them really hybrids, it feels more like a FPS with a med kit honestly. And the chain CCing and healing in WOW is frustrating however, thier idea of CC in GW2 is laughagle, and healing what a few hundred points a tic compared to how much DPS burst.t

    Tell you what you map the amount of DPS per second ANY class in GW2 can do and put it side by side to any other type of Control, healing, fear, etc that it can do and explain to me how that its balanced.

    Pretty much all of what you wrote is false.

    The vast majority of weapon skills perform multiple roles, including healing, protecting, crowd control, etc. You are rarely doing JUST DPS, much like you are rarely doing just healing or CC. Not only that but you also ignore the element of positioning and mobility inherent to many skills.

    It isn't all dps... in organized team play team rezzes, stuns, and buffs/conditions are key

    Again, most skills do dmg/heal, dmg/control, heal/support, etc. Damage is somewhat more prevalent and that is on purpose: the devs even said pre-release that offense was always going to break through defence eventually

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon

     

    They sometimes perform multiple roles but mostly their primary role is DPS and even more rare than that do they no do dps at all, in rare cases like Cleansing Wave, line of warding etc. do they specialize in healing or CC and those are almost always water elementalist or staff skills.

    You cannot seriously compare the DPS in Gw2 to a few Rez abilities or 1 second fears or stuns.

    It is not "somewhat" more prevalent, it is tremendously more prevalent you CAN specialize in Pure dps witih some kind of Condition, crit damange build but you CANNOT make an even 75% CC/heal spec. Non DPS abilities are at best 25% of your spec and that is in extreme cases, more often than not your non dps abilties exist to allow you to do more dps or take less dps, but DPS is without a doubt king. Which is why pvp is such a shallow dps spam borefest atm.

    Like I said a side by side comparison will reveal the inherit weakness other skills have to dps, take fear skills for instance.

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fear

    Most of which do 1 whole second of fear but also do damange half of them are highly situational or pve only but realistically 5-6  skills over 3 classes only counting in skull fear for thieves if they get lucky enough to use it, realistically 2 classes and usually just Necromancers, compared to say oh I dunno Bleeding.

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleeding

    roughly 100+ skills and weapon skills over every class that do huge sums of damage.

    What you say fear isnt a fair side by side, fine  Daze 22, knockdown 19, Stun 19 .. actually there are more skills that break stun than actual stun skills, all those skill totals combined not only don't even match just ONE dps skill list Bleeding, but the durations of those skills are so low comparitivly there is no comparison as to which are more powerful.

    You think a Mesmer will focus on stacking confusion or a one second stun?

    A necro will sometimes have a one second fear but you think he will be  a heavy condition build of try to do CC?

    Some of the better support options on Ranger and Engineers are mostly ignored because of the obvious power difference of condition stacking.  I doubt you will see many rangers using Shouts, especially no Search and Rescue. But you will see almost half of them using sharpening stones.

    Everybody is DPS with minor skills but no one is Healing with minor DPS or CC with a few conditions, everyone is a Primary DPS.

    Powerful damage means small CC/interrupt times are devastating.

    And being able to fight in a game about fighting makes more sense to me than having characters that can't stand a hit or hit for tickles.

    It also means team cordination is done on the fly instead of pre set.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • 1vald21vald2 StuttgartPosts: 75Member

    What annoys me about GW2's combat system is the lack of variety. Most of the melee/ranged/magic spells are the same just with different animations/graphic effects. I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG. 

    But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there. 

    Now I am not a hater of GW2, just stating my opinion. I have 2 lvl 80s and had my fun until I realised that the combat was quite boring and too simple. 

    For those that like the combat (and game), have fun playing it :)

    image

  • RimmersmanRimmersman MonacoPosts: 885Member
    Compared to a game like Age of Wushu, GW2 combat is restrictive and quite frankly boring as hell. Age Of Wushu also has active blocking and parrying but it is totally skilled based with no classes or levels. I can use any weapons in the game and choose how and what role I want to play in the game.

    image
  • Rollcage8Rollcage8 SydneyPosts: 63Member

    Didn't find guild wars 2 combat had any more depth then other MMOs. 

    Ability watching, moving out of the area of attack range, a few hotkeys that cover various tasks like single target damage and area of effect damage. 

    Absolutely nothing I can think of that other MMOs haven't already done, probably the only thing they did really was make the combat look different. 

    TSW, WoW and Swtor all had the same elements as GW2, they just presented them differently. The main difference that people I think are mistaking is the freedom to create a very customised character build in some games over others, although this can be fun, it doesn't add depth to combat, your still moving out of spells, interupting the spells, using the correct damage keys at the right time. Same tasks different spell make up. 

    I personally play MMORPGs for the character customisation and character progression systems, the combat in all of them varies in style/animation only. 

    Unfortunately I didn't enjoy guild wars 2 character progression or customisation at all. 

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Maplewood, NJPosts: 1,098Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by 1vald2

    What annoys me about GW2's combat system is the lack of variety. Most of the melee/ranged/magic spells are the same just with different animations/graphic effects. I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG

    But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there. 

    Now I am not a hater of GW2, just stating my opinion. I have 2 lvl 80s and had my fun until I realised that the combat was quite boring and too simple. 

    For those that like the combat (and game), have fun playing it :)

    Warrior and Guardians both have a spin attack with their greatsword, but the warrior's spin attack is just a spin attack going in one direction of your choice, while the guardian's spin attack can change directions and throws bolts of holy energy.

    Elementalists and Mesmers both have distance attacks with scepters, but the elementalist's attack changes with their elemental attunment, and can be anything from three flying ice shards, each with their own hitbox, to a single spontaneous combustion of the enemy that isn't a projectile and always hits, while the mesmer's attack is a lobbed orb of purple energy that creates illusions to confuse your enemies.

    And that's just the weapon skills.  The really unique stuff lies in the utility and elite skills, where elementalists can summon flaming greatswords, mesmers can polymorph their enemies, warriors can ditch their weapons and pummel their enemies with fists, and guardians can temporarily summon magic books that buff their allies.

    I have trouble seeing how what I just described are merely the same attacks with "different animations/graphics effects".

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • 1vald21vald2 StuttgartPosts: 75Member
    Originally posted by MadDemon64
    Originally posted by 1vald2

    What annoys me about GW2's combat system is the lack of variety. Most of the melee/ranged/magic spells are the same just with different animations/graphic effects. I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG

    But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there. 

    Now I am not a hater of GW2, just stating my opinion. I have 2 lvl 80s and had my fun until I realised that the combat was quite boring and too simple. 

    For those that like the combat (and game), have fun playing it :)

    Warrior and Guardians both have a spin attack with their greatsword, but the warrior's spin attack is just a spin attack going in one direction of your choice, while the guardian's spin attack can change directions and throws bolts of holy energy.

    Elementalists and Mesmers both have distance attacks with scepters, but the elementalist's attack changes with their elemental attunment, and can be anything from three flying ice shards, each with their own hitbox, to a single spontaneous combustion of the enemy that isn't a projectile and always hits, while the mesmer's attack is a lobbed orb of purple energy that creates illusions to confuse your enemies.

    And that's just the weapon skills.  The really unique stuff lies in the utility and elite skills, where elementalists can summon flaming greatswords, mesmers can polymorph their enemies, warriors can ditch their weapons and pummel their enemies with fists, and guardians can temporarily summon magic books that buff their allies.

    I have trouble seeing how what I just described are merely the same attacks with "different animations/graphics effects".

    You fail to see my point. It's not important what the skill does, the animations are very similar to eachother (you mentioned warrior's and guardian's spin attack) with just different colors and effects. My bad for the blant explanation I gave of how GW2's combat lacks variety, but the stress is on the

    "I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG genre."

    and

    "But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there."

     

    To me the combat just doesn't feel rewarding and you don't feel unique. 

     

    image

  • pedrostrikpedrostrik lisboaPosts: 391Member
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by muffins89
    it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

    I love statements like those... why? because if guild wars is shallow.. then depth in other games must be nonexistant.

    +1.

    Tried after GW2 and cant stay there with that standing cast skill type game without dodge or the richest gameplay you find on GW2, i think people only gaves value to GW2 after returning to their old crap gameplay MMO's with always hit skills.

  • eliteroelitero fremont, CAPosts: 263Member Common


    Originally posted by 1vald2
    Originally posted by MadDemon64 Originally posted by 1vald2 What annoys me about GW2's combat system is the lack of variety. Most of the melee/ranged/magic spells are the same just with different animations/graphic effects. I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG.  But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there.  Now I am not a hater of GW2, just stating my opinion. I have 2 lvl 80s and had my fun until I realised that the combat was quite boring and too simple.  For those that like the combat (and game), have fun playing it :)
    Warrior and Guardians both have a spin attack with their greatsword, but the warrior's spin attack is just a spin attack going in one direction of your choice, while the guardian's spin attack can change directions and throws bolts of holy energy. Elementalists and Mesmers both have distance attacks with scepters, but the elementalist's attack changes with their elemental attunment, and can be anything from three flying ice shards, each with their own hitbox, to a single spontaneous combustion of the enemy that isn't a projectile and always hits, while the mesmer's attack is a lobbed orb of purple energy that creates illusions to confuse your enemies. And that's just the weapon skills.  The really unique stuff lies in the utility and elite skills, where elementalists can summon flaming greatswords, mesmers can polymorph their enemies, warriors can ditch their weapons and pummel their enemies with fists, and guardians can temporarily summon magic books that buff their allies. I have trouble seeing how what I just described are merely the same attacks with "different animations/graphics effects".
    You fail to see my point. It's not important what the skill does, the animations are very similar to eachother (you mentioned warrior's and guardian's spin attack) with just different colors and effects. My bad for the blant explanation I gave of how GW2's combat lacks variety, but the stress is on the

    "I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG genre."

    and

    "But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there."

     

    To me the combat just doesn't feel rewarding and you don't feel unique. 

     



    So in first post you say the skills do the same thing but with different animations, then you say you fail to see my point and say its not about skills being different but the animations look the same.

    am I missing something here?

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,260Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by pedrostrik
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by muffins89
    it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

    I love statements like those... why? because if guild wars is shallow.. then depth in other games must be nonexistant.

    +1.

    Tried after GW2 and cant stay there with that standing cast skill type game without dodge or the richest gameplay you find on GW2, i think people only gaves value to GW2 after returning to their old crap gameplay MMO's with always hit skills.

    It was just opposite for me. After returning to WoW (after 1 1/2 years), and RIFT, I realized that games like swtor and gw2 jumped in head first when they saw blizzard had went the streamline/simplify route in cata. Simplification and removal of depth is why I quit WoW. GW2 inparticular took those ideas far beyond where WoW was going. 

     

    GW2 out simplified/streamlined WoW, with nearly no CC, limited skill bar, and abilities that are selected and sloted for you. GW2 is the only mmorpg that I ever played that has abosolutly no need for a damage meter. I'm not even a pro-damage meter guy, but in other mmos I could atleast see where one would be useful.

     

     Remember back in beta, when the gw2 devs said "we don't want people to be overwhelmed with choice..."? 

     

     

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