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Originally posted by MsFit What a pretty blue crab.
I don't care who said what afterward.
MsFit wins this discussion straight out of the gate.
Seriously though, very good article! An interesting look at an extremely common, even definitive, kind of behavior on gaming forums.
Originally posted by TangentPoint Originally posted by MsFit What a pretty blue crab.
Agreed . I especially like posts within this very thread that serve as examples of the original posters comments.
Originally posted by bliss14 Originally posted by gaeanprayer I never really saw this until I stepped away from this site for a while, been too busy enjoying GW2 and like, participating in life n' stuff. I popped in the other day and was almost knocked over by how polar opposite the people on this site are to every other site out there. It's pretty poisonous in here, probably about time to be even more heavy-handed on the penalties and bans. In any case, I don't think this is about entitlement nor do I think this is about the games themselves. I think this boils down to psychology; human beings are by nature evil, vile, gross and without redemption. You like to think you are naturally good and occasionally do bad things, but it's the opposite. Then you get into an online environment where anonymity let's you be the thing you truly are behind closed doors, mob mentality kicks in, and you have what this article claims, the "teardown generation". In other words, people do it for no other reason than that they can, because people are no better than animals and more often than not, are far worse. The end.
Wow. Someone has lost their faith in humanity. I'm curious if you think it applies to you?
It does, though some of us are better at fighting our urges than others.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Originally posted by FearumIf you don't like a game, wtf is the point of repeated negative posts on a forum to others that actually like the game?
There's where you lose it, These forums are not dedicated to people who just 'like the game'. But a discussion consisting of thoughts and opinions about the game.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
I confess to 'tearing down' games, but I also want to make it clear that most of my 'teardown' has been during the last 5+ years, not in 1997 when UO came out, or 2003 when SWG came out, etc..
Somewhere around the time of WoW games became 'big bizness' and a lot of what makes a game fun just vanished into a maze of zerg-fest cash-shop freemium grinder garbage.
Imagine playing D&D as a kid and being told you need to buy in-game currency for real-world $$$ to outfit your character to begin play, or having to pay real-world $$$ to have a multi-class profession since only single-class professions start free. Bleh.
Most of the games of the last 5+ years don't even seem vaguely like games: they're just ad hoc revenue schemes, and if that makes me a person with a 'teardown mentality' then yes, I admit to it.
Very interesting article.
Years ago when I first started out in forums and was a director of a forum on AOL, I got a real taste of what was to come. I always viewed it from the standpoint that people feel that they have a certain anonymity in what they post. Things that they would never say in a face to face meeting, they do without thought on forums because they are protected from most repercussions that would take place in a more standard social settings.
A friend who was acting as my mentor at the time advised me to "alway smile from the wrists down" when posting on forums. This advice I've kept with me all these years.
As someone else has pointed out, the bulk of the voices heard on forums are the minority. Many people read forums on a daily basis and do not reply, preferring instead, to keep their opinions to themselves or to not engage in the war of words that can quickly ensue.
Thanks for the good read.
Originally posted by VendettaDFA Opinions on anything in forums are fine and criticisms if constructive and explained should be accepted. Differing opinions exist. The problem comes when someone feels they are not winning the discussion of opinion and begins replacing fact or on topic information with personal attacks or assumptions of who this person with the view contrary to theirs actually is.
Another problem seems to be the presentation of one's views as fact, not in an attempt to mislead but rather because the person is genuinely assuming that if it is their situation and experience then that is the majority situation or experience.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Zorgo Originally posted by Ozmodan Nothing to do with any of that. As long as developers continue to put crap games out there they will get tons of criticism and deservedly so. You should stop trying to psychoanalyze something with silly rejoinders and look at the obvious fact that none these games lately have been very good. So it is rather hard to argue for any kind of tear down mentality when there is a lot to criticize about these games.
You did a great job exemplifying one of his points:
The Customer Satisfaction Premise
Here's something I picked up from Keen at Keen and Graev's Gaming Blog: the idea of dissatisfaction being caused by previous exposure. Basically, the idea as it relates to the tearing down premise is that we set ourselves up to hate things based on our expectations, as determined by past experiences. As Keen explains,
"If a developer aims for 100% enjoyment or innovation, then players will come to expect that level of enjoyment and innovation. That means next time you’re going to have to meet that same level of enjoyment and innovation or else you will fail to meet expectations, and a high level of disconfirmation will result and players will be unhappy."
That's exactly what he was talking about.
Well I completely disagree with you. Why shouldn't bad games be criticized? What is the point of even having a forum then? You would not have what he calls a tear down issue if the developers had a clue what makes a game enjoyable to keep playing. We have developers spending inordinate amount of time on voice overs, cut scenes, etc, basically fluff that adds nothing to gameplay. They spend no time on the game systems which keeps people playing. Then you have the nerve to say we have a tear down mentality because we have increased expectations. Ludicrous!
Give us the old SWG pre NGE, it was a buggy mess, but it had 10 times the playability and character than these current games. At least that game had some moderately developed systems. Even old UO had better systems than the current crop.
So I think this so called Tear Down Mentality is a product of the market, not the individual.
Originally posted by Ramonski7 Originally posted by Crazy_Stick OP, I think you are trying to over rationalize forum behavior from a slimly sociological perspective to develop an excuse for why things are the way they are that fits your preconceived notions of why people post emotionally on various subjects. In truth, it could be as simple a fact as acknowledging that gaming (playing) is an inherently childish activity for emotional release or satisfaction prone to breed childish behavior in both its best and worse sense. As such a site for the discussion of game opinion can only follow suit.
You are way off base if you think that for a second. A while ago I was doing research while creating a website for my brother-in-law who is a dentist. I happened upon a forum for premed students while looking up terms and gathering information about them. One hot topic of dicussion was why some premed students feel it necessary to wear their lab coats or scrubs around campus to stroke their egos. The whole topic turned into a flame war about who's better than who and it was far from mature.
All I can say is you'd be surprise at the amount of "childish" behavior that goes on even if gaming isn't involved in forums. Maybe you should think about that next time you feel money, intelligence or power breeds mature rational thinking. We were all children at one point and none of us are perfect at keeping that child in us from resurfacing every now and then, myself included. You can be a gamer, doctor or judge it doesn't matter. No one is immune to doing and saying foolish things.
I pointed out that playing is a childish activity liable to breed childish behaviour and I stand by that point. The fact childish behaviour exists in forums unrelated to gaming is in no way detremental to the point made. I never made any claim that wealth, power or intelligence alone are somehow enough to protect one from such failings and see that as you projecting your own issues into an unrelated conversation.
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick Originally posted by Ramonski7 Originally posted by Crazy_Stick OP, I think you are trying to over rationalize forum behavior from a slimly sociological perspective to develop an excuse for why things are the way they are that fits your preconceived notions of why people post emotionally on various subjects. In truth, it could be as simple a fact as acknowledging that gaming (playing) is an inherently childish activity for emotional release or satisfaction prone to breed childish behavior in both its best and worse sense. As such a site for the discussion of game opinion can only follow suit.
I am sorry but I am getting too old and too tired to keep on hitting the same nail: to play games and react on them on the adjecent forums is a "behaviour" of any age, any generation: it is inhirent to human nature. Any claim otherwise is proof of discriminatory biased "superstition".
And while or because I am a firm believer of any reaction based on reason and or substantiated ideas I believe and are convinced that childish and or mature reasoning will distantiate itself by its lack or by its abundance, and not by age only or anything else for that matter
Rated M for Mature - May contain content inappropriate for children
I see it basically as mob mentality. Or democracy. Take your pick. They're both pretty much the same.
Really, it's a mix of all those things you mentioned, but it pretty much just boils down to democracy, which equals mob mentality.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
Originally posted by apocoluster I just assume anyone anyone who posts to online forums are pretty much admitting they are idiots. Ill let the irony hang there for a second >>>>>
I let the irony hang. Nicely done. Would read again.
Anyway, great article. While it is full of obvious points, I believe that someone had to put them all together for some exposure. Do I believe it will make a difference? No. I lost my optimism back in my late 20's. But I still applaud the article.
I rarely have ever posted on a forum such as this one but it is a good topic.
I'm a 49 year old mom that has been PC gaming since original Doom circa 1993/94. I'm most likely not your target audience, but I assure you , people like myself are progression raiders, PvP'rs and coined the term "Hardcore gamer" when most of you were pooping your diapers.
I can tell you, if I want to enjoy ANY game in the least, I do not visit forums such as this one. It feels to me to be full of the most miserable gamers all rounded up from every other Dev forum.
These forums remind me of a cesspool and no one gets out without a little "dirt" on them.
Just for once, try to play a game with a "clean slate" frame of mind. I'm not sure its possible for any of you to understand that concept due ot the jaded discontent that abounds now a days within the industry. It's quite sad that all of you experience this, almost thrive on the drama forums seem to create.
Hope you can figure it out soon! Peace!
Originally posted by Ozmodan So I think this so called Tear Down Mentality is a product of the market, not the individual.
I agree with this. The magnitude of the backlash generally seems to be proportionate to the scale of the hype. Game PR's and their 'journalist' friends thrive on building a groundswell of interest long before a game is released. It's a strategy designed to persuade naive and expectant consumers to part with their cash on release day. Is it really surprising that disappointment turns to anger when players feel that they've been wilfully deceived? It's karma, if you like - a repayment in kind to match the cynicism of the industry and its cronies.
The article talks about dissatisfaction and consumer expectations. The onus is surely on the developers and publishers to be careful about what they promise and to be careful to deliver on those promises. Caveat emptor, for sure, but Caveat venditor too. The faithful here are an unforgiving and unforgetting audience.
Originally posted by therain93 Dear DAG (Devil's Advocate Guy), I think you missed a very important point -- the notion of cognitive dissonance. Basically, when people are holding conflicting ideas, beliefs, or emotions, one of the atural reactions is to try to reduce or eliminate that dissonance while maintaining their belief structure. A typical example is buyer's remorse when purchasing a new car and seeking out reasons to justify why that purcharse was worthwhile. In the context of this column, ripping another game or criticizing praise for another game can also be a defense mechanism to reinforce the belief that what you've chosen is much better and worthwhile.
This. 100 effin percent. If anyone ever made it past 200 level psychology, they would have run by this little dandy. Definitely left out, but overall a good article. I see a great deal of negativity in some of these responses. Just blaming it on recent bad titles is not the answer. This mentality has been rampaging on gaming forums long before the wave of bad games came.
The pattern I see is player burnout related to brain chemistry.
The way I see it, gaming displaces reality (aka immersion) and in-game reward triggers a pleasure / satisfaction response. It's a rush from endogenous neurotransmitters. Something that can be paralleled with substance abuse.
The problem I see is that receptors downregulate based on exposure and lessen the amount of neurotransmitter signalling. Also, with continued gameplay the virtual environment gradually becomes less intense, reducing perceived immersion in the players and thereby lowering the pleasure response.
Bottom line, after a while, it takes more and more to satisfy , and it becomes the developers fault for failing to provide the desired experience.
There's no satisfaction for MMO junkies who can't get a good fix. Of course they get hostile.
Then again, maybe it's just that the games are bad.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Originally posted by crack_fox
The onus is surely on the developers and publishers to be careful about what they promise and to be careful to deliver on those promises.
Add in fan generated hype and I agree. The level of excitement driven up rivals hysteria. That's bound to be a factor in releases that fail to meet expectations.
I have been around since the Awesome XT and vic20 and games to me are still "Games" and Well I love GW2 and Rift and I once loved WOW and Swtor and basically I don't care if you or anyone else agrees or disagrees! I put this down to my age (maturity). I call this the "I'm too old and crotchety to give a damn" mentality. I will never tear down WOW because I had way to much fun playing it (except to get a rise out of one of my annoying mates) and I will never tear down EVE online because I have never played it.
I think people invest so much time and effort into thier games that it all becomes way to personal but I do think that with so many options the "Tear Down" mentality will slowly dissipate and be left to a few "unstable" gamers. The choices we have and are going to have will have so many people playing multiple mmos that preaching and "Tearing Down" will seem pointless and a little hypocritical.
This may be the words of an "Old Fart" (46 but to most gamers that's really really old!!) but what I am trying to say is invest in a game because you like/enjoy playing it, because really, everything else is incidental.
The Teardown Mentality is far from restricted to gamers. Long, long ago when I moderated lists and taught people who wanted to do the same we talked at length about this peculiar and imo interesting part of human behaviour. I lean towards a combination of
and never forget
Add a big group like eg. here to the above and you have an explosive mixture that can blowup at any (real or perceived) provocation.
I had quite a few laughs when people tried to tell me that their particular group was not going to be this way, either because they were too old for such nonsense or because a group was subject bound (eg. technical information only) and would therefore never descend into such destructive behaviour.
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc stop making trash games and marketing them as gold, as we ll stop tearing down ur "stuff".
What is trash to you is another person's gold. PERIOD.
Don't like the games, vote with your wallet. Complaining just makes gamers sound like spoiled children that have to have everything their way.
"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum
Very good article. The section on "Crab Mentality" really made me smile. We have something very similar in the Bahamas. The old people have a saying for those who like to tear others down: "You just like black crab!"
In the Bahamas we have two types of crabs we like to eat. One is a very large white crab, and the other is a smaller black crab. If you put black crabs in one bucket and white crabs in another bucket, walk away for a while and then come back, the bucket with black crabs will still be full. The bucket with white crabs...completely empty.
The black crabs will always reach up and pull down any of the others that try to escape, whereas the white crabs will pile on top of each other, creating a ramp of sorts for the others to climp up, and the second-to-last will actually reach down and pull the last one up and over the edge with it. It's pretty amazing to watch, and always made me feel a bit guilty for eating them...