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So Tengu and Drakes are getting nerfed...

13

Comments

  • JetrpgJetrpg Whitehouse, OHPosts: 2,376Member
    Originally posted by Hazelle
    Originally posted by jagd1
    Originally posted by Malcanis

     

    How many damb times?! Short range missiles are getting a massive buff. Now they're actually viable, so you don't have to use low DPS long range weapons, you can have some fun actually flying your ship.

    980 DPS HAM Tengu. Do it!

    Malcanis do you work for CCP ? Direct or indirect ? Because your posts dont make sense .

    I forgot how many times missiles nerfed since i joined game tech2 /tech1/speed buff = indirect missile nerf  /torp nerf  range nerf / speed balance and missile nerf again / again another missile nerf not talking about ''tweaks '' fyi

    What you forgot is time people spend for these skills ,since skill gain is real time nerf = loss of real time .Drake and tengu were last missile ships in pvp /fleet  and some people tgrained because of alliance fits .

     

    And about that fake big numbers , how many of that damage applied to a Ab  frigate or cruiser ? Numbers mean nothing if you cant apply  ,but you dont talk about this. 

    Oh come on dude a tengu pilot has more than got his/her return on their skill investments.

    The ship was overpowered to rediculous proportions and required no talent to fly.

    I was a tengu pilot and as a tengu pilot I read the blog and thought to myself "it was fun while it lasted" which is something anyone that flew a tengu should think.  Hell, flying a Tengu was like discovering an exploit!

    It's a minor change that brings that ship a bit back down to earth which at the most will set a disgruntled pilot back a whopping 3 months.  Which means that If you've been playing for longer than 3 months you've most likely picked up enough skills to fit a different ship if you honestly believe these changes will make the tengu unplayable.

    Tengu it still viable as heck. Still oen of the better ships to l4 in i mean, cheer.

    Makes nightmares and machs looka  bit better.  But its not a big deal seeing as anyone shootign for tengu that doesn't feel its worth anymore can sit in a CNR farm l4s all day long and train tosomethign else. Or not.

    "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member

    Tried out my close-to-1000 DPS HAMgu last night. It has zero issues hitting Angel Elite frigates with T1 ammo, and it absolutely smashed through the BC & BS rats.

    Whacking BS with T2 Rage is made much nicer by not getting the sig radius penalty, so you don't take as much DPS on approach, and effectivly none while orbiting.

     

    The main change I found was that you basically have to plan 1 target group ahead, ie start moving towards the next group of ships before the current one you're hitting is finished in order to maintain your fire, compared to the old HML tengu which was basically burn to acceleration gate & orbit until all rats are dead. Make sure to reload at every opportunity when you're not firing.

     

    Rigs on the Tengu are:

    T1 Hydraulic Thruster

    2x T2 Rigors

    All in all, the experience was closer to flying a Machariel, with similar DPS. I recommend it.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • vonryan123vonryan123 Not home, MIPosts: 151Member Uncommon

    124km range is now 97km range and dmg took a big hit

    switch to hams or crosstrain like I did when I read the blog about the nerf months ago.

     

    CCP have NEVER done a nerf/change right yet to date. The nerf bat always hits harder then they plan.

    The tengu has been a bit op since the start did it need that big of a kick? well no. Did it need to be a bit more in-line with the other T3's? very much so.

     

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Malcanis

    Tried out my close-to-1000 DPS HAMgu last night. It has zero issues hitting Angel Elite frigates with T1 ammo, and it absolutely smashed through the BC & BS rats.

    Whacking BS with T2 Rage is made much nicer by not getting the sig radius penalty, so you don't take as much DPS on approach, and effectivly none while orbiting.

     

    The main change I found was that you basically have to plan 1 target group ahead, ie start moving towards the next group of ships before the current one you're hitting is finished in order to maintain your fire, compared to the old HML tengu which was basically burn to acceleration gate & orbit until all rats are dead. Make sure to reload at every opportunity when you're not firing.

     

    Rigs on the Tengu are:

    T1 Hydraulic Thruster

    2x T2 Rigors

    All in all, the experience was closer to flying a Machariel, with similar DPS. I recommend it.

    LOL, does anyone still run L4s like I do, in a Battleship?  (Maelstrom in fact)  Probably not.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • KrematoryKrematory TVNPosts: 542Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Malcanis

    Tried out my close-to-1000 DPS HAMgu last night. It has zero issues hitting Angel Elite frigates with T1 ammo, and it absolutely smashed through the BC & BS rats.

    Whacking BS with T2 Rage is made much nicer by not getting the sig radius penalty, so you don't take as much DPS on approach, and effectivly none while orbiting.

     

    The main change I found was that you basically have to plan 1 target group ahead, ie start moving towards the next group of ships before the current one you're hitting is finished in order to maintain your fire, compared to the old HML tengu which was basically burn to acceleration gate & orbit until all rats are dead. Make sure to reload at every opportunity when you're not firing.

     

    Rigs on the Tengu are:

    T1 Hydraulic Thruster

    2x T2 Rigors

    All in all, the experience was closer to flying a Machariel, with similar DPS. I recommend it.

    LOL, does anyone still run L4s like I do, in a Battleship?  (Maelstrom in fact)  Probably not.

     

    Raven pilot reporting in :)

    "EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran

  • kovahkovah Orlando, FLPosts: 695Member
    CNR4Life!
  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Malcanis

    Tried out my close-to-1000 DPS HAMgu last night. It has zero issues hitting Angel Elite frigates with T1 ammo, and it absolutely smashed through the BC & BS rats.

    Whacking BS with T2 Rage is made much nicer by not getting the sig radius penalty, so you don't take as much DPS on approach, and effectivly none while orbiting.

     

    The main change I found was that you basically have to plan 1 target group ahead, ie start moving towards the next group of ships before the current one you're hitting is finished in order to maintain your fire, compared to the old HML tengu which was basically burn to acceleration gate & orbit until all rats are dead. Make sure to reload at every opportunity when you're not firing.

     

    Rigs on the Tengu are:

    T1 Hydraulic Thruster

    2x T2 Rigors

    All in all, the experience was closer to flying a Machariel, with similar DPS. I recommend it.

    LOL, does anyone still run L4s like I do, in a Battleship?  (Maelstrom in fact)  Probably not.

     

    Only posers fly anything but BS class vessels in missions, the only point there ever was to that was probe immune ships for mission running in lowsec or 0.0. Im saying that as someone who loves cruisers and BCs, and hates flying the cumbersome BS. Problem is threefold: 

    1. The lower range on the medium guns for the turret ships. Many many rats tend to orbit outside optimal(some around 60km), and once they established their orbits you end up drawing a 3D pentagram into space or using ineffective very long distance ammo.

    2. Missile DPS lower than expected due to sig, speed and defenders. With hams you end up with the pentagram in space again.

    3. Not enough dronespace to effectively kill frigates. BS can kill frigates with drones while killing cruisers and BS. Even if you kill the frigs very quick, wasted time is wasted time.

     

    I mean, yeah they can situationally perform very well, depending on the mission. But a Faction BS with matching dmgtype for the rats you deal with, a mwd and 3-4 damage modules ... it plainly outperforms anything cruiser sized.

    For example the annoying 30k frigs ... My nightmare could pop 4 of them every cycle at like 80km. It could literally wipe out pockets before anything got in range to fire a single shot. My machariel was even more ridiculous, its just as quick as most T3, huge range(falloff), dps and can choose damage types. Tracking on that beast is also very good due to shipbonus and ACs innate tracking.

    Though that being said, i could see a HAM tengu giving most BS a run for their money. And with most i mean those that don't have 7 ACs with falloff bonus and double damage bonus aswell as a tracking bonus, or those that sport the equivalent of 8 tachs with damage and tracking bonus.

    All the turret based T3 and CS though? Nah. Just not seeing it.

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member

    With 2x T2 Rigors and Guided Missile Precision V, I had no problems at all killing Frigates with T1 HAMs. With the missile changes they're significantly more effective.

    And using T2 Rage, I get close to 1000 DPS.  That's Mach/Nightmare class DPS, albeit only out to ~28km. If you want to call that "posing", go for it. The Tengu was a far quicker train than a Mach would have been for my mission alt.

    I also used an "unprobeable" (I know they're not any more) Tengu on Malc to do Angel pirate missions and made an enormous profit on that. All those Gallente tags worked really nicely with all those Caldari LP my hi-sec alt was earning. Being able to sell 15-20 Dramiels and 10-15 Caldari Navy BCUs every week pays back the investment required for a couple of decently fitted Tengus very quickly. I still have 7 or 8 bill left from that period and I haven't really bothered to make ISK all this year. I sold my PVP-fitted pirate BS collection when the cash started running low and that paid for another 6 months of PvP :)

     

    EDIT: PS there are such things as Javelin HAMs you know...

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Malcanis

    Tried out my close-to-1000 DPS HAMgu last night. It has zero issues hitting Angel Elite frigates with T1 ammo, and it absolutely smashed through the BC & BS rats.

    Whacking BS with T2 Rage is made much nicer by not getting the sig radius penalty, so you don't take as much DPS on approach, and effectivly none while orbiting.

     

    The main change I found was that you basically have to plan 1 target group ahead, ie start moving towards the next group of ships before the current one you're hitting is finished in order to maintain your fire, compared to the old HML tengu which was basically burn to acceleration gate & orbit until all rats are dead. Make sure to reload at every opportunity when you're not firing.

     

    Rigs on the Tengu are:

    T1 Hydraulic Thruster

    2x T2 Rigors

    All in all, the experience was closer to flying a Machariel, with similar DPS. I recommend it.

    LOL, does anyone still run L4s like I do, in a Battleship?  (Maelstrom in fact)  Probably not.

     

     

    Try a Mach. They're much more effective (I mean a LOT) and also much less tedious to fly than a Mael. You don't need to bling-fit them at all. The only fancy goods I'd recommend are a Pith XL C-type booster and a RF Afterburner. Everything else you can just fit plain T2

    [Machariel, EM-Missiony]
    Gyrostabilizer II
    Gyrostabilizer II
    Gyrostabilizer II
    Gyrostabilizer II
    Tracking Enhancer II
    Tracking Enhancer II
    Tracking Enhancer II

    Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
    Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    EM Ward Field II
    EM Ward Field II

    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    [empty high slot]

    Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
    Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
    Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


    Hobgoblin II x7
    Hammerhead II x5
    Hammerhead II x4
     

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member
    Originally posted by Teala
    Biggest news coming from EVE is the death of WIS.   Team Avatar is no more and WIS is not even going to be a part of the game any longer.   So the walking in closets is all WIS will ever be.   Here I thought CCP was a game company that was truly making a difference in the MMO industry...I was sadly mistaken.   

     

    I was favorable toward WIS when the whole idea first began because it allowed more game play possibilities and really threatened to open up New Eden as a living setting. The idea of being able to delve a wormhole, locate the ruins of a sleeper colony or station, and then go inside it on the ground to get artifacts and make discoveries too was HUGE to me. Put that kind of space and ground game together and you’ve a fan for life in me. Factional fighting for planet side resources was a given.

     

    All those ideas and possibilities were flushed into DUST514. DUST looked like sucha cool idea for the first while. Then? Little 48 man battle maps without real point and only for PS3 owners. That’s all it will ever be and it simply doesn't meet the expectations of PS3 players. I understand CCP wants to broaden their products appeal but you can’t just ditch your core audience that way and fail to satisfy the new market.

     

    Now? Since the idea has been abandoned, I honestly wish they would get rid of the current WIS closets and go back to the old hangar interface with an added TV screen in one corner. It’s a poorly optimized waste only good for making it hard for people with lower end systems to multibox sometimes. That’s the only reason I support keeping them around, lol.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Malcanis
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Malcanis

    Tried out my close-to-1000 DPS HAMgu last night. It has zero issues hitting Angel Elite frigates with T1 ammo, and it absolutely smashed through the BC & BS rats.

    Whacking BS with T2 Rage is made much nicer by not getting the sig radius penalty, so you don't take as much DPS on approach, and effectivly none while orbiting.

     

    The main change I found was that you basically have to plan 1 target group ahead, ie start moving towards the next group of ships before the current one you're hitting is finished in order to maintain your fire, compared to the old HML tengu which was basically burn to acceleration gate & orbit until all rats are dead. Make sure to reload at every opportunity when you're not firing.

     

    Rigs on the Tengu are:

    T1 Hydraulic Thruster

    2x T2 Rigors

    All in all, the experience was closer to flying a Machariel, with similar DPS. I recommend it.

    LOL, does anyone still run L4s like I do, in a Battleship?  (Maelstrom in fact)  Probably not.

     

     

    Try a Mach. They're much more effective (I mean a LOT) and also much less tedious to fly than a Mael. You don't need to bling-fit them at all. The only fancy goods I'd recommend are a Pith XL C-type booster and a RF Afterburner. Everything else you can just fit plain T2

    [Machariel, EM-Missiony]
    Gyrostabilizer II
    Gyrostabilizer II
    Gyrostabilizer II
    Gyrostabilizer II
    Tracking Enhancer II
    Tracking Enhancer II
    Tracking Enhancer II

    Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
    Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    EM Ward Field II
    EM Ward Field II

    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
    [empty high slot]

    Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
    Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
    Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


    Hobgoblin II x7
    Hammerhead II x5
    Hammerhead II x4
     

    Thanks for the tip, I debated flying a Mach, and ended up going with a pretty tricked out Mael.

    One question, 800's instead of 1400's?  In the Mael I was using 1400's with Republic fleet EMP as people said the falloff values for 800's was much more severe than people realized. (maybe that was specific only to the Mael)

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by AvsRock21
    Originally posted by Teala
    Biggest news coming from EVE is the death of WIS.   Team Avatar is no more and WIS is not even going to be a part of the game any longer.   So the walking in closets is all WIS will ever be.   Here I thought CCP was a game company that was truly making a difference in the MMO industry...I was sadly mistaken.   

    "Biggest news"??? Rofl. Hardly any EVE players care about WIS. It's a waste of time and pointless compared to other things that you can do in-game. How would CCP be making a 'difference' by making the game more like other mmos? CCP made a difference when they released EVE.

    There was a lot of people, including me, who was looking forward to station walking and beyond because the feeling was that it was not immersive to be a ship. However CCP botched it by trying to turn it into a cash-cow with trying to use it to push forward their cash shop.

    It backfired both on the existing playerbase and those of us waiting on the sideline. Now the back-pedaled and are back into being a ship thing. Which is alright as it will keep their current playerbase but will not do much about bringing in new people.

    Second misstake they made was to make their FPS game console only. That could have brought it more people into Eve if they tied it into the space game properly. But again they botched it by making it console only.

    Sorry but CCP were the indy company when they made Eve but now they are just yet another bloated studio with more money than sense.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by Z3R01

    WIS was too much for CCP.

    Maybe if they had Blizzard resources WIS could be a full fledged addition tot he game.

    Fully interaction stations, missions, mini-games, social hubs, personal shops and more.

    However they can't do that and I would rather they scrap the idea than limp along taking 10 years to release whats basically meaningless Avatars walking down a hallway.

    What do you mean they cant do that? They are creating a full fledged FPS so the definetely can do that. However they probably think they wont make enough money from it so they wont do that, rather than cant.

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by Malcanis

    With 2x T2 Rigors and Guided Missile Precision V, I had no problems at all killing Frigates with T1 HAMs. With the missile changes they're significantly more effective.

    And using T2 Rage, I get close to 1000 DPS.  That's Mach/Nightmare class DPS, albeit only out to ~28km. If you want to call that "posing", go for it. The Tengu was a far quicker train than a Mach would have been for my mission alt.

    I also used an "unprobeable" (I know they're not any more) Tengu on Malc to do Angel pirate missions and made an enormous profit on that. All those Gallente tags worked really nicely with all those Caldari LP my hi-sec alt was earning. Being able to sell 15-20 Dramiels and 10-15 Caldari Navy BCUs every week pays back the investment required for a couple of decently fitted Tengus very quickly. I still have 7 or 8 bill left from that period and I haven't really bothered to make ISK all this year. I sold my PVP-fitted pirate BS collection when the cash started running low and that paid for another 6 months of PvP :)

     

    EDIT: PS there are such things as Javelin HAMs you know...

    Yeah, i know about javelin. They do the exact same damage against frigs as bogstandard t1 last i checked, and that means piss poor. 

    125m explosion radius unaffected by skills

    101 explosion velocity affected by skills since last patch.

     

    That means at most youll be applying 1/3 of your dps against a nonmoving frigate(30-40 sig), if they move it gets worse. Yeah sure 200dps is still plenty to kill frigs, but you won't be able to pop them with a single volley from a single turret like the nightmare. I have run level 4 missions in a nightmare with a friend in a HAM fitted sacriledge(he needed the standing). He /ragequit running missions with me because i could reliably kill an entire spawn by the time he got to it with his mwd.

    Should have frapsed the crap, the cruisers and frigs went pop pop pop, i literally had trouble locking them quickly enough. Didn't even group my guns because it would have been way overkill 90% of the time.

     

    I mean i have flown both, perfect skills for both aswell. There is just no comparsion. A nightmare or mach will have killed all the frigs and cruisers in a spawn(they do need a bit of distance i admit though, which is why i said there are exceptions) by the time your first volley arrives. Its simply the difference with gun vs missile mechanics. A frig burning straight at my nightmare(and all NPCs do) will be hit for 100% of the guns damage, doesn't matter if its going 2m/s, 200m/s or 2km/s. And that means INSTANT death by virtue of being hit by a single turret for any npc frigate. Which means 4 dead frigs 1-2 sec after i get a lock. No missile ship can do that. Infact for the fast frigs(like spider drones) you have to wait for them to slow down or waste oodles of ammo.

    Or are you telling me your HAM tengu is doing 1000dps against mwding spider drones? 

     

    P.S.: Guided missile prediction and rigor rigs don't do anything for HAMs btw. Those skills/rigs are only for guided missiles like ligh, heavies and cruise. And no, the patch didn't change THAT, target navigation prediction affects them now. 

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,867Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Rocketeer
    I have run level 4 missions in a nightmare with a friend in a HAM fitted sacriledge(he needed the standing).  

    I found your problem.


    Just because you pick very poor ship for missions does not make HAMs bad.

  • gibogibo GibraltarPosts: 25Member
    If you liked eve but and these last changes have made you reconsider resubbing. Please give Perpetuum a try. It has similar mechanics and skilling system, the market is almost identical, pvp and mining and missions are different and more fun, than shooting red crosses all day.  I quit eve and found Perpetuum almost 2 years ago and never looked back, maybe you guys like it.
  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Rocketeer
    I have run level 4 missions in a nightmare with a friend in a HAM fitted sacriledge(he needed the standing).  

     

    I found your problem.


    Just because you pick very poor ship for missions does not make HAMs bad.

    Calling a nightmare a very poor ship for missions shows the level of your expertise.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,867Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Calling a nightmare a very poor ship for missions shows the level of your expertise.

    Or could it be I was talking about...the other ship?

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Calling a nightmare a very poor ship for missions shows the level of your expertise.

     

    Or could it be I was talking about...the other ship?

    "Just because you pick very poor ship for missions does not make HAMs bad." <-- Is this your quote?

    In reply to this quote:

    "I have run level 4 missions in a nightmare with a friend in a HAM fitted sacriledge(he needed the standing)."

     

    If so, no you where talking about the nightmare. Unless you meant to imply i pick my friends ships, which makes no sense at all and is certainly implied nowhere in my posts.

     

    That being said a sacriledge does about 10% less damage than a 6 launcher tengu against rats you would use a nightmare against, while having higher topspeed, acceleration and able to be used as tackle. It is a very, very sensible choice over the tengu in a mission tandem where its not going to be primary dps anyway.

     

    Edit: Especially taking cost efficiency into account.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,867Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    If so, no you where talking about the nightmare. Unless you meant to imply i pick my friends ships, which makes no sense at all and is certainly implied nowhere in my posts.

    "You" also implies plural - all of you, any of you.

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member
    Originally posted by Rocketeer
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Calling a nightmare a very poor ship for missions shows the level of your expertise.

     

    Or could it be I was talking about...the other ship?

    "Just because you pick very poor ship for missions does not make HAMs bad." <-- Is this your quote?

    In reply to this quote:

    "I have run level 4 missions in a nightmare with a friend in a HAM fitted sacriledge(he needed the standing)."

     

    If so, no you where talking about the nightmare. Unless you meant to imply i pick my friends ships, which makes no sense at all and is certainly implied nowhere in my posts.

     

    That being said a sacriledge does about 10% less damage than a 6 launcher tengu against rats you would use a nightmare against, while having higher topspeed, acceleration and able to be used as tackle. It is a very, very sensible choice over the tengu in a mission tandem where its not going to be primary dps anyway.

     

    Edit: Especially taking cost efficiency into account.

     

    You appear to be operating under a few misconceptions.

    First, Retribution changed short range missiles; Guided Missile Precision now applies, as do rigor rigs and precision implants.

    Secondly, I would be fascinated to see your friends "90% of Tengu" DPS Sacri fit. The most I can get with T2 Rage and 5 Estamels BCUs, +5% Rof & Damage implants is 790 @ 16.9Km. Wheras my HAM Tengu is getting 1042 @ 29.1Km. Where is he getting that extra 147 DPS from?

    Realistically, he's using no more than 4 T2 BCUs, and even with implants that puts him at around 680 missile DPS. I'm sorry to break this to you, but the Sac is hugely inferior to the Tengu as a PvE missile boat. There's no away around this. That puts him at about 30% less DPS and 50% less range than a HAM Tengu. He'd actually get more damage with a DPS-fitted Drake.

     

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    If so, no you where talking about the nightmare. Unless you meant to imply i pick my friends ships, which makes no sense at all and is certainly implied nowhere in my posts.


     

    "You" also implies plural - all of you, any of you.

    So what, wea re some commune now that decides together which ship to use? He picks the ship he likes, i pick the ship i like. His choice was poor because HAM/HMLs suck in missions compared to BS sized lasers thats hardly my fault. If he had chosen a tengu instead, the outcome would have been exactly the same. The 1k dps of a ham tengu is conditional to a big slow moving target within your range that is not using defenders. If it takes you 20 sec to close to your range, another 10 sec to kill it you didn't do 1k dps, you did 300 dps. 

    Morale of the story is missiles on any ship match badly with any high performance turret BS, because stuff WILL explode before your missiles or your ship reach it, and there is no target thats better left to missiles because turrets at range are efficent against frigs and cruisers alike.

    The issue is traveltime, 30km range is simply not enough for many many missions. And even with a MWD it takes up to a full minute to reach a spawn thats 70-100km away. And your speed means nothing when a machariel is actually faster than a tengu while having upto 30% more dps than a tengu.

     

    It has been done to death on forums and in theory, it has been tested ingame and people have compared their missiontimes. T3 are simply worse than wellfitted BS for lvl 4 missions. Range is king, followed by DPS and then tank since no amount of dps will allow you to make up the time it takes you to fly a 100km detour for that spawn opposite the acceleration gate. And killing a bunch of tough frigs on approach when they have the sig of a cruiser is the best way to deal with them, HAM range, even if it wasn't for its poor performance agaisnt fast targets, is too short for that.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,867Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by RocketeerHis choice was poor because HAM/HMLs suck in missions compared to BS sized lasers thats hardly my fault.

    The poor choice was Sacrilege, not HAM/HML.

    because as you said yourself:



    Originally posted by RocketeerT3 are simply worse than wellfitted BS for lvl 4 missions. Range is king, followed by DPS and then tank

    You gotta decide whether you want to pick right ship for the job or pick a ship you like.

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by Malcanis
    Originally posted by Rocketeer
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Calling a nightmare a very poor ship for missions shows the level of your expertise.

     

    Or could it be I was talking about...the other ship?

    "Just because you pick very poor ship for missions does not make HAMs bad." <-- Is this your quote?

    In reply to this quote:

    "I have run level 4 missions in a nightmare with a friend in a HAM fitted sacriledge(he needed the standing)."

     

    If so, no you where talking about the nightmare. Unless you meant to imply i pick my friends ships, which makes no sense at all and is certainly implied nowhere in my posts.

     

    That being said a sacriledge does about 10% less damage than a 6 launcher tengu against rats you would use a nightmare against, while having higher topspeed, acceleration and able to be used as tackle. It is a very, very sensible choice over the tengu in a mission tandem where its not going to be primary dps anyway.

     

    Edit: Especially taking cost efficiency into account.

     

    You appear to be operating under a few misconceptions.

    First, Retribution changed short range missiles; Guided Missile Precision now applies, as do rigor rigs and precision implants. 

    Your right, i confused it with target navigation prediction.

    Secondly, I would be fascinated to see your friends "90% of Tengu" DPS Sacri fit. The most I can get with T2 Rage and 5 Estamels BCUs, +5% Rof & Damage implants is 790 @ 16.9Km. Wheras my HAM Tengu is getting 1042 @ 29.1Km. Where is he getting that extra 147 DPS from?

    Sacri: 5 Launcher x 1.25 Damage / 0.75 RoF = 8.3 Effective launcher with any ammo + 3 Light drones.

    Tengu: 6 Launchers / 0.625 RoF = 9.6 Effective launcher with any ammo but kinetic.

    I didn't bother entering fittings into eve fit, just did some rough math in my head but still it shouldn't be that far off. And yes we fought rats weak to EM and Therm which influenced his ship choice.

    Realistically, he's using no more than 4 T2 BCUs, and even with implants that puts him at around 680 missile DPS. I'm sorry to break this to you, but the Sac is hugely inferior to the Tengu as a PvE missile boat. There's no away around this. That puts him at about 30% less DPS and 50% less range than a HAM Tengu. He'd actually get more damage with a DPS-fitted Drake.

    Im curious how such a spread is supposed to be possible given the difference in effective launchers. Multiplying amount of launchers with damage boni and rate of fire is basic math, and there simply is no 30% spread between them. 

    Ofc if you use kinetic missiles tengu pulls ahead, but sometimes you can't.

     

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Rocketeer

     

    His choice was poor because HAM/HMLs suck in missions compared to BS sized lasers thats hardly my fault.


     

    The poor choice was Sacrilege, not HAM/HML.

    because as you said yourself:

     


    Originally posted by Rocketeer

     

    T3 are simply worse than wellfitted BS for lvl 4 missions. Range is king, followed by DPS and then tank


     

    You gotta decide whether you want to pick right ship for the job or pick a ship you like.

    Sacri is 1.5km/s, Tengu is 1.27km/s on MWD. 130m/s top speed vs 10km range on weapons would not have affected the situation of him not reaching a spawn 90km away before i nearly obliterated it. He felt useless in a 150 mil ship, had he flown a tengu he would have felt useless in a 800 mil ship.

    The damage difference between the tengu using non kinetic missiles vs a sacri doing the same with 3 light drones would have been neglible. Certainly noticeable in a solo situation, but completely lost in a duo.

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