1) "virtual worlds" that places "realism" above fun.
2) Artificial boundries (like oh you can't group with your friend just because his toon is in another server) to limit the greater community across server and games.
3) artificial time sinks ..(oh .. you have to wait 20 min for the boat rides, because that is how it is in real life .. come on .. we are playing a GAME here).
4) playing more like work (apply to get into a raid guild, have to go to raid meetings, have to stick to a raid schedule .. come on .. is this a game or work?)
* Lifeless static worlds....Those dwarves have been hammering away fixing up Stormwind for the last 2 years now, and they are still no closer to finishing the job. Also remember games like The Witcher where NPC's in towns would react to things like Day/Night and Weather etc and you'd find them in different places at different times? Not in MMO's...They have ONE purpose, ONE phrase and ONE position from now until eternity.
* Zones that have no business being next to each other...How many times have we seen games now where on one side of a cave its all lush jungle oasis, and on the other its cold hard blizzard struck snowy landscapes, or harsh barren deserts next to them? Not a gradual change, but BAM instant!
* Dismissal of your prior achievments come new expansions..."What? YOU were the one who bested the Lich King? Thats INCREDIBLE!!!...Now go find me 3 Banana's, 2 Grapefruit and a Melon, and if you're lucky I'll give you a few pieces of silver and a pair of useless gloves you can't use...chop chop!"
Faction rep grind irritates me. So you completed the Spore Peoples storyline, saved their people, vanquished their most hated and feared enemies, and restored peace. Now come back everyday for a month and do these remedial tasks and then we will REALLY like you.
It has to be PVP in PVE games. I just don't get it. PvE players and PvP players just don't get on and destroy MMOs communities and game concept(AKA balancing PVP usually unbalance PvE and viceversa which means drama guaranteed and lead to confused developers and watered down MMOs) IMO MMOs should be either full PVP like Darkfall or full PVE like Everquest
forcing everyone who plays a particular game into PVP.
one of the most idiotic design choices ever.
(%90-%95 of my gaming time since 1996 has been PVP, so don't get it twisted)
I'm missing the problem. If you don't like PvP then don't play that game. Would you like to count the number of games that force you to PvE? Variety is a good thing.
i'm not surprised you missed that.
Did you read what I wrote with an angry voice in your head? I wasn't referring to you specifically. All games have certain rulesets and playstyles. If a player does not like those rules then they can simply elect not to play said game. Especially when it comes to forced PvP which is becoming increasingly rare. I wouldn't join a football team then complain about being hit. It's part of the game. Either I deal with it or find another sport.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Absurd stat inflation (Have 40 HP at level 1, at level cap you have 400,000 HP).
Primary class attributes: Warriors go for stregth, ignore intelligence. Mages go for intelligence, strength is useless. Archers ignore Strength, go for agility (because we all know that you use your agility to pull the string, and not your strength).
Faction rep grind irritates me. So you completed the Spore Peoples storyline, saved their people, vanquished their most hated and feared enemies, and restored peace. Now come back everyday for a month and do these remedial tasks and then we will REALLY like you.
and once you've completed a months work of remedial tasks for them, they might even reward you with something special to represent them by, such as a mount!....for a cost of course! Like you haven't done enough...
forcing everyone who plays a particular game into PVP.
one of the most idiotic design choices ever.
(%90-%95 of my gaming time since 1996 has been PVP, so don't get it twisted)
I'm missing the problem. If you don't like PvP then don't play that game. Would you like to count the number of games that force you to PvE? Variety is a good thing.
i'm not surprised you missed that.
Did you read what I wrote with an angry voice in your head? I wasn't referring to you specifically. All games have certain rulesets and playstyles. If a player does not like those rules then they can simply elect not to play said game. Especially when it comes to forced PvP which is becoming increasingly rare. I wouldn't join a football team then complain about being hit. It's part of the game. Either I deal with it or find another sport.
then don't jump in an forum featuring other people's opinions and then complain about an opinion you don't like. its part of the forum. either deal with it, or find another forum.
no, i read that with a very vacant voice in my head. you're saying nonsensicle, oblivious things. basically that its wrong for a player to want a kinda of game that you don't care about. if you don't care about that kind of game then move on. don't act like you're gonna be the police of what other people want to play. this should be just basic stuff nobody has to tell you.
monsters don't hunt a person down intelligently & persistently across the world, therefore a person never has non-consentual PVE (that they can't opt out of) forced on them.
& your football analogy is extremely off base. nobody goes to a play football that hates to play football.
& nobody chooses to play pvp that hates to play pvp. this shouldn't be so hard for you to understand.
Random monsters carrying items they should not be able to especially with inconsistent themeing (Because the theme of your sword weilding warrior is so much more important than loot making sense so we will have this tiny rat drop a sword the sword warrior can use)
Time locked respawns.
Time locked raids
Having to schedule a certain time to be efficient at acomplishing the next task.
PVP must be fair and skill based (as in real person skill)
Complaining is just a sign of the times, our culture, and the entitlement society we now live in. Complain enough and maybe you get your way, so long as you dont need to change anything about yourself or what you do (as well as going to another game)
Armchair developers, been playing mmorpgs since the 17th century, must include their history gaming, as if that matterd, and have half baked ideas suited to exactly what will benefit them in game, no concept towards the greater good of the game. Developers are all stupid and ruin every game ect. Cant stand it anymore, frankly id rather pay a company to develop the game and let them do the work and keep me out of it, which is why i do exactly that. If they do something i dont like, i live with it or move on. Its a game so its not life of death. This again is a reflection of society being insanely narcissistic. Take your ideas, get funding for it, watch and learn how easy it isnt.
And finally the pvp is fair and skill based community. No its not fair or skill based....its smarts based and character based...which is unfair. Thats how these games were always meant to be. mmoRPGS were never meant to be a reflex based game, they have those, they call them FPS and action games. Your class doesnt need a buff you need to stop playing it like its rambo and stop thinking your suppose to 1vs1 stomp people when these games are group based and your a vital cog in a wheel.
***warning resturant analogy***
Anyway. I have no issues with wow clones or instancing or gear grind. You dont like that stuff dont play those games, tons exist to suit your needs. Sometimes i feel like im watching people eating a a burger joint, complaining about how hamburgers are all the same basic concept as all the other burgers made at other places, telling the waiter how the burgers should have been made, and how other peoples burgers are better than theirs despite having the option to order that one...and i think...why are you people eating burgers, specifically at this particulair burger joint...if you have issues with the resturant staple product and or the way they are made and served.
forcing everyone who plays a particular game into PVP.
one of the most idiotic design choices ever.
(%90-%95 of my gaming time since 1996 has been PVP, so don't get it twisted)
I'm missing the problem. If you don't like PvP then don't play that game. Would you like to count the number of games that force you to PvE? Variety is a good thing.
i'm not surprised you missed that.
forced PvP which is becoming increasingly rare.
and that's completely opposite of reality. it dipped slightly after Trammel (many many years ago), but there's been an explosion of forced PVP sandboxes lately. do you never read MMO related news?
the concept that every mmo must have PvP, which is absolute rubbish. A 2nd concept that bugs me is the whole "balance is god" idea. I would love to see an mmo come out that relegates balance to a more sane level. Why must it be possible for everyone,with the same gear/skill set ultimately to be no more or less powerful with everyone else with that same gear/skill set. Hard to motivate me to dash out into battle against whatever boss-enemy to save the day, when I already know there are countless thousands of others out there like me who can do the job basically just as well as I,lol.
I hate quests, if you have quests it means that your game is so bad you have to give people a point to move forward. Quests should be goals made by the characters because they want something. Make the rewards for exploring and hunting and trading and everything more interesting and you wont need quests.
agree with all that part, for the most part.
at least when it comes to making them a requirement,
where most of your xp was designed to come from completing quests.
if they made them completely optional, people who enjoyed them would do them......you know....because they ENJOY them, not cuz they HAD to, in order to make enough xp.
Backwards compatability. Making sure it runs on every pos walmart computer rather than pushing the limits of REAL gaming computers.
Vanguard was a prime example. Right before launch they removed ALL the fantastic hair options and replaced them with 3 or 4 variations of plastic hair helmets.
Why must it be possible for everyone,with the same gear/skill set ultimately to be no more or less powerful with everyone else with that same gear/skill set. Hard to motivate me to dash out into battle against whatever boss-enemy to save the day, when I already know there are countless thousands of others out there like me who can do the job basically just as well as I,lol.
that's not a problem when gameplay is based on real life skill progression,
rather than statistically pre-determined dice rolling "gameplay".
Hats, hoods and cloaks that require you to be above level X to wear.
Why on earth would a hood require you to be level 10 or higher to wear, how much of a dumbass do you have to be to F'up wearing a hood, come on it's a bag with two sides opened up and as for cloaks they are just blanket tied around your shoulders.
by the logic that most games give when it comes to wearing hats, hoods and cloaks you should be above level 20 just to wear your underwear.
Hats, hoods and cloaks that require you to be above level X to wear.
Why on earth would a hood require you to be level 10 or higher to wear, how much of a dumbass do you have to be to F'up wearing a hood, come on it's a bag with two sides opened up and as for cloaks they are just blanket tied around your shoulders.
by the logic that most games give when it comes to wearing hats, hoods and cloaks you should be above level 20 just to wear your underwear.
lol, that reminds me of WoW, where you couldn't even get a full size cloak until later levels. Everyone was running around with baby bib on backwards.
Hats, hoods and cloaks that require you to be above level X to wear.
Why on earth would a hood require you to be level 10 or higher to wear, how much of a dumbass do you have to be to F'up wearing a hood, come on it's a bag with two sides opened up and as for cloaks they are just blanket tied around your shoulders.
by the logic that most games give when it comes to wearing hats, hoods and cloaks you should be above level 20 just to wear your underwear.
good one. i meant to post this one too. just one of the many intrusive, immersion-breaking band-aid "fixes" that people think are necessary to keep power progression players on their hardwired treadmills/hamster-wheels with no "cheats"/twinks, to let them break free.
devs who focus too much on the core gameplay (grind, questing, grind) especially at endgame, and forget about the "little things" that truly capture an audience. examples:
player housing (instanced housing is a joke to me, but even that is better than nothing), side mini games (i consider swtor space game a fun distraction when i'm bored), USEFUL seasonal events ("oh man that was sure fun to kill all those x,y,z holiday mobs, good thing i got that firework/food item/0 damage seasonal weapon to show for it"), community building (the actual feeling of "us vs them" in pvp or pve events rather than "me vs all of them for rep/rank")
ya it's so funny that a level 10 can pick up and wear a hat but a level 9 cannot, for example. Same with a knife for that matter. So is a wizard so stupid that he cannot pick up a dirk? How does he make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches?
The a virtual world is required. In many MMOs, much of the pve gameply is not even massive (more like a lobby game) and if the world is taken away ... or shrink to just a city .. i wonder how many will even notice.
I think the commonly accepted MMO concept that bugs me the most is offering a choice of quest rewards with only one correct choice. Did this start in WoW? It's all over the place now, or at least in every game that has quests with rewards. Rather than just going "Here's some leather gloves, Mr. Thief", they always say "Do you want the Cloth gloves with +Int, the Leather Gloves with +Dex, or the Plate Gauntlets with +Vit?" You can't sell or trade them, so there's no reason to choose a reward that is inappropriate for your class. And it's almost never a toss-up. There are usually choices that you're not allowed to equip. Sometimes, you can't equip ANY of the incorrect choices.
Does this keep getting put into games because picking the right choice from the list makes some players feel smart? Or is it something that gets copied from game to game purely because "the other MMOs do it so it must be a good idea"?
Building a game around a virtual world, and then pushing other areas of the game so hard that the virtual world becomes irrelevant and noone uses it.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Comments
1) "virtual worlds" that places "realism" above fun.
2) Artificial boundries (like oh you can't group with your friend just because his toon is in another server) to limit the greater community across server and games.
3) artificial time sinks ..(oh .. you have to wait 20 min for the boat rides, because that is how it is in real life .. come on .. we are playing a GAME here).
4) playing more like work (apply to get into a raid guild, have to go to raid meetings, have to stick to a raid schedule .. come on .. is this a game or work?)
* Lifeless static worlds....Those dwarves have been hammering away fixing up Stormwind for the last 2 years now, and they are still no closer to finishing the job. Also remember games like The Witcher where NPC's in towns would react to things like Day/Night and Weather etc and you'd find them in different places at different times? Not in MMO's...They have ONE purpose, ONE phrase and ONE position from now until eternity.
* Zones that have no business being next to each other...How many times have we seen games now where on one side of a cave its all lush jungle oasis, and on the other its cold hard blizzard struck snowy landscapes, or harsh barren deserts next to them? Not a gradual change, but BAM instant!
* Dismissal of your prior achievments come new expansions..."What? YOU were the one who bested the Lich King? Thats INCREDIBLE!!!...Now go find me 3 Banana's, 2 Grapefruit and a Melon, and if you're lucky I'll give you a few pieces of silver and a pair of useless gloves you can't use...chop chop!"
Faction rep grind irritates me. So you completed the Spore Peoples storyline, saved their people, vanquished their most hated and feared enemies, and restored peace. Now come back everyday for a month and do these remedial tasks and then we will REALLY like you.
I just don't get it. PvE players and PvP players just don't get on and destroy MMOs communities and game concept(AKA balancing PVP usually unbalance PvE and viceversa which means drama guaranteed and lead to confused developers and watered down MMOs)
IMO MMOs should be either full PVP like Darkfall or full PVE like Everquest
Did you read what I wrote with an angry voice in your head? I wasn't referring to you specifically. All games have certain rulesets and playstyles. If a player does not like those rules then they can simply elect not to play said game. Especially when it comes to forced PvP which is becoming increasingly rare. I wouldn't join a football team then complain about being hit. It's part of the game. Either I deal with it or find another sport.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Absurd stat inflation (Have 40 HP at level 1, at level cap you have 400,000 HP).
Primary class attributes: Warriors go for stregth, ignore intelligence. Mages go for intelligence, strength is useless. Archers ignore Strength, go for agility (because we all know that you use your agility to pull the string, and not your strength).
Levelling that exists for its own sake.
and once you've completed a months work of remedial tasks for them, they might even reward you with something special to represent them by, such as a mount!....for a cost of course! Like you haven't done enough...
then don't jump in an forum featuring other people's opinions and then complain about an opinion you don't like. its part of the forum. either deal with it, or find another forum.
no, i read that with a very vacant voice in my head. you're saying nonsensicle, oblivious things. basically that its wrong for a player to want a kinda of game that you don't care about. if you don't care about that kind of game then move on. don't act like you're gonna be the police of what other people want to play. this should be just basic stuff nobody has to tell you.
monsters don't hunt a person down intelligently & persistently across the world, therefore a person never has non-consentual PVE (that they can't opt out of) forced on them.
& your football analogy is extremely off base. nobody goes to a play football that hates to play football.
& nobody chooses to play pvp that hates to play pvp. this shouldn't be so hard for you to understand.
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Corpus Callosum
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Quest hubs.
Random monsters carrying items they should not be able to especially with inconsistent themeing (Because the theme of your sword weilding warrior is so much more important than loot making sense so we will have this tiny rat drop a sword the sword warrior can use)
Time locked respawns.
Time locked raids
Having to schedule a certain time to be efficient at acomplishing the next task.
Artificial gating of content.
My accepted mmo concepts i detest most are:
Complaining
Armchair developers
PVP must be fair and skill based (as in real person skill)
Complaining is just a sign of the times, our culture, and the entitlement society we now live in. Complain enough and maybe you get your way, so long as you dont need to change anything about yourself or what you do (as well as going to another game)
Armchair developers, been playing mmorpgs since the 17th century, must include their history gaming, as if that matterd, and have half baked ideas suited to exactly what will benefit them in game, no concept towards the greater good of the game. Developers are all stupid and ruin every game ect. Cant stand it anymore, frankly id rather pay a company to develop the game and let them do the work and keep me out of it, which is why i do exactly that. If they do something i dont like, i live with it or move on. Its a game so its not life of death. This again is a reflection of society being insanely narcissistic. Take your ideas, get funding for it, watch and learn how easy it isnt.
And finally the pvp is fair and skill based community. No its not fair or skill based....its smarts based and character based...which is unfair. Thats how these games were always meant to be. mmoRPGS were never meant to be a reflex based game, they have those, they call them FPS and action games. Your class doesnt need a buff you need to stop playing it like its rambo and stop thinking your suppose to 1vs1 stomp people when these games are group based and your a vital cog in a wheel.
***warning resturant analogy***
Anyway. I have no issues with wow clones or instancing or gear grind. You dont like that stuff dont play those games, tons exist to suit your needs. Sometimes i feel like im watching people eating a a burger joint, complaining about how hamburgers are all the same basic concept as all the other burgers made at other places, telling the waiter how the burgers should have been made, and how other peoples burgers are better than theirs despite having the option to order that one...and i think...why are you people eating burgers, specifically at this particulair burger joint...if you have issues with the resturant staple product and or the way they are made and served.
Its mind boggling to say the least.
and that's completely opposite of reality. it dipped slightly after Trammel (many many years ago), but there's been an explosion of forced PVP sandboxes lately. do you never read MMO related news?
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Corpus Callosum
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the concept that every mmo must have PvP, which is absolute rubbish. A 2nd concept that bugs me is the whole "balance is god" idea. I would love to see an mmo come out that relegates balance to a more sane level. Why must it be possible for everyone,with the same gear/skill set ultimately to be no more or less powerful with everyone else with that same gear/skill set. Hard to motivate me to dash out into battle against whatever boss-enemy to save the day, when I already know there are countless thousands of others out there like me who can do the job basically just as well as I,lol.
agree with all that part, for the most part.
at least when it comes to making them a requirement,
where most of your xp was designed to come from completing quests.
if they made them completely optional, people who enjoyed them would do them......you know....because they ENJOY them, not cuz they HAD to, in order to make enough xp.
---------------------------
Corpus Callosum
---------------------------
Backwards compatability. Making sure it runs on every pos walmart computer rather than pushing the limits of REAL gaming computers.
Vanguard was a prime example. Right before launch they removed ALL the fantastic hair options and replaced them with 3 or 4 variations of plastic hair helmets.
that's not a problem when gameplay is based on real life skill progression,
rather than statistically pre-determined dice rolling "gameplay".
---------------------------
Corpus Callosum
---------------------------
Hats, hoods and cloaks that require you to be above level X to wear.
Why on earth would a hood require you to be level 10 or higher to wear, how much of a dumbass do you have to be to F'up wearing a hood, come on it's a bag with two sides opened up and as for cloaks they are just blanket tied around your shoulders.
by the logic that most games give when it comes to wearing hats, hoods and cloaks you should be above level 20 just to wear your underwear.
You make me like charity
lol, that reminds me of WoW, where you couldn't even get a full size cloak until later levels. Everyone was running around with baby bib on backwards.
You make me like charity
good one. i meant to post this one too. just one of the many intrusive, immersion-breaking band-aid "fixes" that people think are necessary to keep power progression players on their hardwired treadmills/hamster-wheels with no "cheats"/twinks, to let them break free.
---------------------------
Corpus Callosum
---------------------------
devs who focus too much on the core gameplay (grind, questing, grind) especially at endgame, and forget about the "little things" that truly capture an audience. examples:
player housing (instanced housing is a joke to me, but even that is better than nothing), side mini games (i consider swtor space game a fun distraction when i'm bored), USEFUL seasonal events ("oh man that was sure fun to kill all those x,y,z holiday mobs, good thing i got that firework/food item/0 damage seasonal weapon to show for it"), community building (the actual feeling of "us vs them" in pvp or pve events rather than "me vs all of them for rep/rank")
I think the commonly accepted MMO concept that bugs me the most is offering a choice of quest rewards with only one correct choice. Did this start in WoW? It's all over the place now, or at least in every game that has quests with rewards. Rather than just going "Here's some leather gloves, Mr. Thief", they always say "Do you want the Cloth gloves with +Int, the Leather Gloves with +Dex, or the Plate Gauntlets with +Vit?" You can't sell or trade them, so there's no reason to choose a reward that is inappropriate for your class. And it's almost never a toss-up. There are usually choices that you're not allowed to equip. Sometimes, you can't equip ANY of the incorrect choices.
Does this keep getting put into games because picking the right choice from the list makes some players feel smart? Or is it something that gets copied from game to game purely because "the other MMOs do it so it must be a good idea"?
When I cant sit in a chair.
The fact that I log into a themepark to get to end game, to then enjoy the game.
Rampant instancing.
Classes, bring me classless systems!
Carebear pvp.
I really could go on for a page, but, its all been said already.
Building a game around a virtual world, and then pushing other areas of the game so hard that the virtual world becomes irrelevant and noone uses it.