Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

World is not required for an MMO

135678

Comments

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,667Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    I'm not following your point here. Yes, in a way you can say a chessboard is a worldspace. That doesn't change the fact that a worldspace is necessary for an MMO. Were you agreeing or disagreeing?

    I think I know what you mean, but a more accurate term, think, would be "gamespace". There is no world in Planetarion still just like there is no world in chess.

    Or to put it simply: there is no world world.

    You're assuming it doesn't exist because you don't walk/fly/swim in it. It is definitely there, adding context, physics and rulesets that control what can be done and how it can be done within the game world. Planetarion most certainly has a game world that the participants play in.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,762Member Uncommon

    I think Quirhad is confusing ‘online game’ with MMO. Your definition of a MMO seems to be an online game. There are various genres of online games, you can have a MMO FPS for example. But I see no value in trying to dilute the concept of what a MMO is, in fact I see that as being very detrimental to gaming.

    If you like easyMMO’s that’s OK by me, but call it what it is, you can have a different term, mine is a dig at that subgenre so you are not going to pick mine, fair enough. Trying to incorporate every new change of gameplay into the term MMO is pointless and misleading.

    Much of this problem is down to game marketing which does not like to use new terms for games which are not already buzz words. So new games come out which are not MMO’s but marketing considerations override common sense.

    In fact the abbreviation MMO is now ubiquitously used by the gaming industry for what I think of as easyMMO’s. But I still think of them as MMO’s if you get my drift, just ones where you have to play in easymode.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot

    I think Quirhad is confusing ‘online game’ with MMO. Your definition of a MMO seems to be an online game. There are various genres of online games, you can have a MMO FPS for example. But I see no value in trying to dilute the concept of what a MMO is, in fact I see that as being very detrimental to gaming.

    If you like easyMMO’s that’s OK by me, but call it what it is, you can have a different term, mine is a dig at that subgenre so you are not going to pick mine, fair enough. Trying to incorporate every new change of gameplay into the term MMO is pointless and misleading.

    Much of this problem is down to game marketing which does not like to use new terms for games which are not already buzz words. So new games come out which are not MMO’s but marketing considerations override common sense.

    In fact the abbreviation MMO is now ubiquitously used by the gaming industry for what I think of as easyMMO’s. But I still think of them as MMO’s if you get my drift, just ones where you have to play in easymode.

    May be that is what it should be. Certainly there is no "virtual world" in the name of "MMO". And massive can refer to the fact that you can be matched with massive number of players in arena pvp or co-op dungeon.

    MMO .. and MO .. does not differe that much as a label. And you can always have sub-genres.

    But once again, this is just labels. We are talking about non-MMO online games on this site anyway.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,667Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    I'm not tying to redefine the genre. Or maybe in your eyes I might be. So far, I haven't much disagreed with what the industry calls an MMORPG. And I haven't said anything about MMOs having certain features they lack now. Planetarion is about 12 years old! It precedes many of the MMOs you imply. It has always been an MMO without a world.

    That gamespace that Planetarion players interact in is called the game world.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • trenshodtrenshod charlotte, MIPosts: 128Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    As demonstrated by Planetarion (wikipedia link), Dominion and various other similar games where your planet, kingdom etc. is represented by a webpage(s) of numbers and stats. These games have everything they need to be called an MMO and the ones which have player characters in them (instead of planets or dominions) are fully fledged MMORPGs.

    A lack of a world does not unmake an MMORPG and a "true MMORPG" (if you insist such a thing exists) does not need a world nor does it need to be a world simulation.

    Only looked at what you linked that game looks more like a RTS than a RPG. Sure you can do away with the world and rely on instanced locations which is majorly boring after awhile. I wouldn't mind seeing a twist to what we see now but I honesty like to explore and not feel as though I'm running through a tunnel.

  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Dallas, TXPosts: 954Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    I'm not tying to redefine the genre. Or maybe in your eyes I might be. So far, I haven't much disagreed with what the industry calls an MMORPG. And I haven't said anything about MMOs having certain features they lack now. Planetarion is about 12 years old! It precedes many of the MMOs you imply. It has always been an MMO without a world.

    That gamespace that Planetarion players interact in is called the game world.

    If you're playing a game, any game, which requires you to take on the role of an individual character, that character cannot exist outside of an environment. Much like Planetarion's situation, even if you're not physically moving a model through a virtual space, the universe or worlds that game takes place within still bares literary existence.

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by trenshod
     

    Only looked at what you linked that game looks more like a RTS than a RPG. Sure you can do away with the world and rely on instanced locations which is majorly boring after awhile. I wouldn't mind seeing a twist to what we see now but I honesty like to explore and not feel as though I'm running through a tunnel.

    And that depends on what you like.

    LOL has more active players than WOW .. and all it is .. is instanced pvp. So not everyone needs to explore to have fun.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,667Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lawlmonster
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    I'm not tying to redefine the genre. Or maybe in your eyes I might be. So far, I haven't much disagreed with what the industry calls an MMORPG. And I haven't said anything about MMOs having certain features they lack now. Planetarion is about 12 years old! It precedes many of the MMOs you imply. It has always been an MMO without a world.

    That gamespace that Planetarion players interact in is called the game world.

    If you're playing a game, any game, which requires you to take on the role of an individual character, that character cannot exist outside of an environment. Much like Planetarion's situation, even if you're not physically moving a model through a virtual space, the universe or worlds that game takes place within still bares literary existence.

    Agreed. Not just literary existence, but actually designed as such during the development of the game.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    As demonstrated by Planetarion (wikipedia link), Dominion and various other similar games where your planet, kingdom etc. is represented by a webpage(s) of numbers and stats. These games have everything they need to be called an MMO and the ones which have player characters in them (instead of planets or dominions) are fully fledged MMORPGs.A lack of a world does not unmake an MMORPG and a "true MMORPG" (if you insist such a thing exists) does not need a world nor does it need to be a world simulation.
    What does one do without a world?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    ... a webpage(s) of numbers and stats...

    Some people spend hours watching stock prices change. They get very involved and often react with strong emotions and a flurry of activity... so yeah, I can see it... "World of NASDAQ"... maybe I'll do a write up and put it up on Kickstarter... Thanks for the idea!

     

    Yours truly,

     

    B. Madoff

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    As demonstrated by Planetarion (wikipedia link), Dominion and various other similar games where your planet, kingdom etc. is represented by a webpage(s) of numbers and stats. These games have everything they need to be called an MMO and the ones which have player characters in them (instead of planets or dominions) are fully fledged MMORPGs.

     

    A lack of a world does not unmake an MMORPG and a "true MMORPG" (if you insist such a thing exists) does not need a world nor does it need to be a world simulation.


    What does one do without a world?

     

    Play in an instanced? have you played LOL, or Diablo 3? If so, you know what to do without a world.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    As demonstrated by Planetarion (wikipedia link), Dominion and various other similar games where your planet, kingdom etc. is represented by a webpage(s) of numbers and stats. These games have everything they need to be called an MMO and the ones which have player characters in them (instead of planets or dominions) are fully fledged MMORPGs.

    A lack of a world does not unmake an MMORPG and a "true MMORPG" (if you insist such a thing exists) does not need a world nor does it need to be a world simulation.

    I view this slightly differently. MMORPG is just a label .. and i know there was plenty of debate of what it is .. and it is not. I think that is irrelevant, and not very useful.

    However, what is important is that the players who play "MMORPG" .. what kind of game will attract them. And i agree with you that a world is not always necessarily.

    Just look at the games this site covers: Diablo, WOT, LOL, Smite .... there is no consistent virtual world in these games, but their playstyle is close enough to many MMO playstyle. Diablo is very similar to LFD small group dungeoning. WOT is like arena/BG pvp.

    I don't believe such a thing as "true MMORPG" exists. They are jsut response to market preferences. And I see a trend of fusing elements from other genres.

    Diablo is a game with online capability's diablo can never be considered an mmo as i cannot play with alot of people at the same time. 3 other people is a max. dablio is a hack and slah dungeon crawler. there is no MMO quality anywhere.

    Wot is a fps with tanks... again not an MMO if that is an mmo then every fps with an online ability should be defined as an MMO

    LoL is again not an MMO, wikipedia defines it as a multiplayer online battle arena. and i geus that sounds alright.

    There is no Massive anywhere in those games. apart from the ability to play with alot of people. you are not playing with alot of people.

    In a MMO and lets take WoW for example i am by default playing with alot of people. i might not be talk to them but there they are right in front of me. And whatever slightest of movement i make might trigger a reaction . That is an MMO.

     

    Now PA could be defined as an MMO, because there is alot of people wich play together in their world of names and numbers. But it is also a browser game and that description would fit it the most because people who are searching to play a MMO are not looking for a browser game like PA. They are looking at the games ranging from dark ages online (top down vieuw) to Archage. So why add the MMO title?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    ... a webpage(s) of numbers and stats...

    Some people spend hours watching stock prices change. They get very involved and often react with strong emotions and a flurry of activity... so yeah, I can see it... "World of NASDAQ"... maybe I'll do a write up and put it up on Kickstarter... Thanks for the idea!

     

    Yours truly,

     

    B. Madoff

    I suppose it is down to how you define "a world". If you think that a website with the same underlying data is a world .. then the auction house on Diablo 3 is also a world?

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    As demonstrated by Planetarion (wikipedia link), Dominion and various other similar games where your planet, kingdom etc. is represented by a webpage(s) of numbers and stats. These games have everything they need to be called an MMO and the ones which have player characters in them (instead of planets or dominions) are fully fledged MMORPGs.

    A lack of a world does not unmake an MMORPG and a "true MMORPG" (if you insist such a thing exists) does not need a world nor does it need to be a world simulation.

     

    Wheels are not required for a bicycle.

     Bicycle is a system with 2 circular or spiral arrangements.  So yes a bicycle does require wheels or some or circular or spiral arrangement.

    There may be an argument for a shortened work of bike that doesn't imply that but no for bicycle :)

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    As demonstrated by Planetarion (wikipedia link), Dominion and various other similar games where your planet, kingdom etc. is represented by a webpage(s) of numbers and stats. These games have everything they need to be called an MMO and the ones which have player characters in them (instead of planets or dominions) are fully fledged MMORPGs.

    A lack of a world does not unmake an MMORPG and a "true MMORPG" (if you insist such a thing exists) does not need a world nor does it need to be a world simulation.

    i dont agree.

    so by your standerd any game with an online function can be considered an MMO?

    because alot of people can play it online? if you dont have a persistant world then my friend what you have is a online game not an MMO, You could refer to browser games like PA and tribal wars as MMO´s but lets keep them at browser games shall we?

     Nothing in the acronym MMO implies a world.  That is just something that is commonly associated with it.  All you need is a lot of people playing in an online game to be an MMO.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Quirhid
    As demonstrated by Planetarion (wikipedia link), Dominion and various other similar games where your planet, kingdom etc. is represented by a webpage(s) of numbers and stats. These games have everything they need to be called an MMO and the ones which have player characters in them (instead of planets or dominions) are fully fledged MMORPGs.A lack of a world does not unmake an MMORPG and a "true MMORPG" (if you insist such a thing exists) does not need a world nor does it need to be a world simulation.
    What does one do without a world?
    Play in an instanced? have you played LOL, or Diablo 3? If so, you know what to do without a world.
    Is there earth beneath one's feet? Is there air that a PC breathes? Are there structures of any kind? Is there water or plant life? Are there other life forms besides the PC, ie: NPCs and/or PCs?

    No, I have not, nor will ever play LoL or D3. Just not my cup of tea.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

     Nothing in the acronym MMO implies a world.  That is just something that is commonly associated with it.  All you need is a lot of people playing in an online game to be an MMO.

    Yeh. MMO should be more inclusive.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Quirhid
    As demonstrated by Planetarion (wikipedia link), Dominion and various other similar games where your planet, kingdom etc. is represented by a webpage(s) of numbers and stats. These games have everything they need to be called an MMO and the ones which have player characters in them (instead of planets or dominions) are fully fledged MMORPGs.

     

    A lack of a world does not unmake an MMORPG and a "true MMORPG" (if you insist such a thing exists) does not need a world nor does it need to be a world simulation.


    What does one do without a world?
    Play in an instanced? have you played LOL, or Diablo 3? If so, you know what to do without a world.
    Is there earth beneath one's feet? Is there air that a PC breathes? Are there structures of any kind? Is there water or plant life? Are there other life forms besides the PC, ie: NPCs and/or PCs?

     

    No, I have not, nor will ever play LoL or D3. Just not my cup of tea.

    Even if you have not played those games, you know how those game plays, right? There is nothing requiring a virtual world to have fun in a game.

    And no .. there is no earth beneath one's feet .. it is all graphics and imaginery, built to entertain. We are playing games, not living in another world.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky   Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by AlBQuirky Originally posted by Quirhid As demonstrated by Planetarion (wikipedia link), Dominion and various other similar games where your planet, kingdom etc. is represented by a webpage(s) of numbers and stats. These games have everything they need to be called an MMO and the ones which have player characters in them (instead of planets or dominions) are fully fledged MMORPGs.   A lack of a world does not unmake an MMORPG and a "true MMORPG" (if you insist such a thing exists) does not need a world nor does it need to be a world simulation.
    What does one do without a world?
    Play in an instanced? have you played LOL, or Diablo 3? If so, you know what to do without a world.
    Is there earth beneath one's feet? Is there air that a PC breathes? Are there structures of any kind? Is there water or plant life? Are there other life forms besides the PC, ie: NPCs and/or PCs?   No, I have not, nor will ever play LoL or D3. Just not my cup of tea.
    Even if you have not played those games, you know how those game plays, right? There is nothing requiring a virtual world to have fun in a game.

    And no .. there is no earth beneath one's feet .. it is all graphics and imaginery, built to entertain. We are playing games, not living in another world.




    I'm not entirely sure that's what Quirhid is talking about. It seems like what they are saying is that you don't need a visual representation of a world, even if the world's existence is implied by the data or statistics you're being fed by the game.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones


    I'm not entirely sure that's what Quirhid is talking about. It seems like what they are saying is that you don't need a visual representation of a world, even if the world's existence is implied by the data or statistics you're being fed by the game.

     

    It is a matter of definitions. The "usual" definition of a virtual world is a 3D representation of PCs and NPCs in a physical space (terrain).

    However, if you want to redefine a vritual world as a common set of data (world state) that players can interact with, i have no objection. But note that under that definition, a AH qualifies as a world, so that will make D3 a virtual world game.

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    Now while I do believe that a world is not required for an MMO, in practical terms I'm not sure how it would be possible.  As soon as you have a room/area for people to interact with that is essentially a world/universe...  Whether it is a whole world or not, or just an instanced area is to me essentially a moot point.

    Maybe a text based card game, hmm.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

     Nothing in the acronym MMO implies a world.  That is just something that is commonly associated with it.  All you need is a lot of people playing in an online game to be an MMO.

    Yeh. MMO should be more inclusive.

    The first 'M' in MMO is massively - that doesn't mean 3 players - it means way more than that. My opinion is that it also means in one area, not different instances or games.

     

    I was in GW2, last night, in Malchor's Leap with at least 50 other players doing a massive event. NOW THAT IS AN MMO. Myself and 3 other buddies in D3, that is NOT massive.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

     Nothing in the acronym MMO implies a world.  That is just something that is commonly associated with it.  All you need is a lot of people playing in an online game to be an MMO.

    Yeh. MMO should be more inclusive.

     Yes, Facebook is an MMO.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

     Nothing in the acronym MMO implies a world.  That is just something that is commonly associated with it.  All you need is a lot of people playing in an online game to be an MMO.

    Yeh. MMO should be more inclusive.

     Yes, Facebook is an MMO.

     Yes it is.  Not a game, but it is an MMO.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

     Nothing in the acronym MMO implies a world.  That is just something that is commonly associated with it.  All you need is a lot of people playing in an online game to be an MMO.

    Yeh. MMO should be more inclusive.

    The first 'M' in MMO is massively - that doesn't mean 3 players - it means way more than that. My opinion is that it also means in one area, not different instances or games.

     

    I was in GW2, last night, in Malchor's Leap with at least 50 other players doing a massive event. NOW THAT IS AN MMO. Myself and 3 other buddies in D3, that is NOT massive.

     3 players is not a lot.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

Sign In or Register to comment.