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What Commonly Accepted MMO Concepts Bug You?

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  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by loulaki

    well to add which bothers me

     

    1) lack of open worlds and in the same place i would add the dungeons, why they have to be closed and instanced ?

    Big world need big servers and lots of memory. We can't even model a bacterial cell (it takes months on some of the new supoercomputer) and you want it all open? Realistically this will not happen for a long time. Instanced makes it easier to control and you have all the bosses and drops to your group. In an open world the boss might only appear once a day or so. 

    Games before WoW ran fine without instances, Games like darkfall dont have instances at all i beleive vanguard is also like this. The reason why instances are so commonly found in games is because it is EASYIER for the devs. Devs nowadays do aslittle work as they can to try and make a profit which is why there somany copy pace WoW games on the market. WoW is probaly one of the easier MMO to make and run, so thats what the Devs have been doing from other companies and with it they try to cut the cost on certain things such as game size and so on so its cheaper to produce. A couple of developers acualy try and make somthing different and put the effort into a game and that i applaud them for.
  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by Rimmersman
    Originally posted by dreamsofwar
    Auction houses. I'd much rather see Western MMO's adopt a concept that many Asian MMO's have used, player stalls. It adds to the social aspect of the game, allows for bartering, and it just adds more life and atmosphere to cities, and other parts of the world. Imagine seeing a few player stalls outside of raid entrances, its little things like that I think would make games more immersive.

     

    Ermm we have had a western MMO with stalls, SOE was doing it 12 years ago with EQ with the Nexus, it was a bit laggy though . But yeah I agree with you, we seem to going backwards compared to games like Age of Wushu's.

    I agree we are going backwards on the MMO's genre it seems Dev wanna be lazy and do the smallest amount of work that turns a profit without putting much effort or thought into the game there making heance all the WoW clones (Investors arnt helping either).

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Originally posted by sanshi44
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by loulaki

    well to add which bothers me

     

    1) lack of open worlds and in the same place i would add the dungeons, why they have to be closed and instanced ?

    Big world need big servers and lots of memory. We can't even model a bacterial cell (it takes months on some of the new supoercomputer) and you want it all open? Realistically this will not happen for a long time. Instanced makes it easier to control and you have all the bosses and drops to your group. In an open world the boss might only appear once a day or so. 

    Games before WoW ran fine without instances, Games like darkfall dont have instances at all i beleive vanguard is also like this. The reason why instances are so commonly found in games is because it is EASYIER for the devs. Devs nowadays do aslittle work as they can to try and make a profit which is why there somany copy pace WoW games on the market. WoW is probaly one of the easier MMO to make and run, so thats what the Devs have been doing from other companies and with it they try to cut the cost on certain things such as game size and so on so its cheaper to produce. A couple of developers acualy try and make somthing different and put the effort into a game and that i applaud them for.

    They had no physics engines, they were isometric (no 3D graphics), they were limited in what you can do. If you want  a blank canvas - world exploration 3D graphics, etc., then you need more horsepower and this is what I was talking about. We don't want to back to UO type graphics - especailly from a bigger company.

     

    I think it is very disingenuous to you to say that developers are slackers - they are not but the reality is they have to make decisions to get product out the door. Plain and simple. Your stating they do as little as possible points out you have no clue as to how much work goes into a game.


  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by sanshi44
    Games before WoW ran fine without instances, Games like darkfall dont have instances at all i beleive vanguard is also like this. The reason why instances are so commonly found in games is because it is EASYIER for the devs. Devs nowadays do aslittle work as they can to try and make a profit which is why there somany copy pace WoW games on the market. WoW is probaly one of the easier MMO to make and run, so thats what the Devs have been doing from other companies and with it they try to cut the cost on certain things such as game size and so on so its cheaper to produce. A couple of developers acualy try and make somthing different and put the effort into a game and that i applaud them for.

    You know, it would be easier to take you a little more seriously if you didn't fall back on the old "omg devs r la-zy!" we've been hearing ever day since 1979.

    If you don't have any actual data, "I don't like instances" is sufficient to carry the op.  Inventing a lot of properties for employees of EvilCorp isn't really necessary.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by sanshi44
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by loulaki

    well to add which bothers me

     

    1) lack of open worlds and in the same place i would add the dungeons, why they have to be closed and instanced ?

    Big world need big servers and lots of memory. We can't even model a bacterial cell (it takes months on some of the new supoercomputer) and you want it all open? Realistically this will not happen for a long time. Instanced makes it easier to control and you have all the bosses and drops to your group. In an open world the boss might only appear once a day or so. 

    Games before WoW ran fine without instances, Games like darkfall dont have instances at all i beleive vanguard is also like this. The reason why instances are so commonly found in games is because it is EASYIER for the devs. Devs nowadays do aslittle work as they can to try and make a profit which is why there somany copy pace WoW games on the market. WoW is probaly one of the easier MMO to make and run, so thats what the Devs have been doing from other companies and with it they try to cut the cost on certain things such as game size and so on so its cheaper to produce. A couple of developers acualy try and make somthing different and put the effort into a game and that i applaud them for.

    They had no physics engines, they were isometric (no 3D graphics), they were limited in what you can do. If youo want  a blank canvas - world exploration 3D graphics, etc., then you need more horsepower and this is what I was talking about. We don't want to back to UO type graphics - especailly from a bigger company..

    Ok then let me bring forth to you a game called darkfall its a large world with no instances, another one planet side 2 another large world with no instances (PS2 also has one of the best physic engine and lighting ive seen in a game) it may not have NPC in there but it does have a heck of alot more places on the screen than MMORPG nowadays and i experience no lag at all.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by sanshi44

    Ok then let me bring forth to you a game called darkfall its a large world with no instances..

    ...and one of the smallest player populations.

    Model density has a great deal to do with rendering load.  Ask Blizzard (and Lagforge).

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Originally posted by sanshi44
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by sanshi44
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by loulaki

    well to add which bothers me

     

    1) lack of open worlds and in the same place i would add the dungeons, why they have to be closed and instanced ?

    Big world need big servers and lots of memory. We can't even model a bacterial cell (it takes months on some of the new supoercomputer) and you want it all open? Realistically this will not happen for a long time. Instanced makes it easier to control and you have all the bosses and drops to your group. In an open world the boss might only appear once a day or so. 

    Games before WoW ran fine without instances, Games like darkfall dont have instances at all i beleive vanguard is also like this. The reason why instances are so commonly found in games is because it is EASYIER for the devs. Devs nowadays do aslittle work as they can to try and make a profit which is why there somany copy pace WoW games on the market. WoW is probaly one of the easier MMO to make and run, so thats what the Devs have been doing from other companies and with it they try to cut the cost on certain things such as game size and so on so its cheaper to produce. A couple of developers acualy try and make somthing different and put the effort into a game and that i applaud them for.

    They had no physics engines, they were isometric (no 3D graphics), they were limited in what you can do. If youo want  a blank canvas - world exploration 3D graphics, etc., then you need more horsepower and this is what I was talking about. We don't want to back to UO type graphics - especailly from a bigger company..

    Ok then let me bring forth to you a game called darkfall its a large world with no instances, another one planet side 2 another large world with no instances (PS2 also has one of the best physic engine and lighting ive seen in a game) it may not have NPC in there but it does have a heck of alot more places on the screen than MMORPG nowadays and i experience no lag at all.

    I have played it - the graphics were PITA - the game was laggy as all get out - had more bugs than D3 when it came out - very small population. Not a game on my radar.


  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by sanshi44
    Games before WoW ran fine without instances, Games like darkfall dont have instances at all i beleive vanguard is also like this. The reason why instances are so commonly found in games is because it is EASYIER for the devs. Devs nowadays do aslittle work as they can to try and make a profit which is why there somany copy pace WoW games on the market. WoW is probaly one of the easier MMO to make and run, so thats what the Devs have been doing from other companies and with it they try to cut the cost on certain things such as game size and so on so its cheaper to produce. A couple of developers acualy try and make somthing different and put the effort into a game and that i applaud them for.

    You know, it would be easier to take you a little more seriously if you didn't fall back on the old "omg devs r la-zy!" we've been hearing ever day since 1979.

    If you don't have any actual data, "I don't like instances" is sufficient to carry the op.  Inventing a lot of properties for employees of EvilCorp isn't really necessary.

    Zones/area's

    Everquest zones on release around 90

    Wow zones on release about 60

    Rift zones on release like 16

    zones were around the same sioze as each other in each game

    Factions/Alignment

    Everquest faction (alighnment system) was huge each city had atleast 5 different factions in (for example Qeynos had corrupted guard, non corrupted guards, all class factions, black burrow and more than i cant remember off the top of my head that u can increase or decrease inside North/.South qeynos just one if the 12 cities or so in that game. there was probaly atleast 200+ different factions you could be allied with or Kill on sight with on release

    WoW had about about 20 or so on release

    Rift had like 5

    Number of starter Cities

    Everquest around 12

    WoW - 6

    Rift - 2

    Races

    Everquest -12

    WoW 8

    Rift -6 (i beleive)

    Classes

    Everquest - 13

    WoW - around 8ish

    Rift - had 4 classes with like 8 rolls in each classes that u could use 3 of any of those rolls at a time to build a class. Rift did score higher on the number of classes cause they put alot of work in trying to make this what different them from the game they were cloning would of been nice if they put work on the other part of the game aswell.

     

    This will do for now as you can see the been less effort put into games over the years, its late so im off to bed.

     

     

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by sanshi44
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by sanshi44
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by loulaki

    well to add which bothers me

     

    1) lack of open worlds and in the same place i would add the dungeons, why they have to be closed and instanced ?

    Big world need big servers and lots of memory. We can't even model a bacterial cell (it takes months on some of the new supoercomputer) and you want it all open? Realistically this will not happen for a long time. Instanced makes it easier to control and you have all the bosses and drops to your group. In an open world the boss might only appear once a day or so. 

    Games before WoW ran fine without instances, Games like darkfall dont have instances at all i beleive vanguard is also like this. The reason why instances are so commonly found in games is because it is EASYIER for the devs. Devs nowadays do aslittle work as they can to try and make a profit which is why there somany copy pace WoW games on the market. WoW is probaly one of the easier MMO to make and run, so thats what the Devs have been doing from other companies and with it they try to cut the cost on certain things such as game size and so on so its cheaper to produce. A couple of developers acualy try and make somthing different and put the effort into a game and that i applaud them for.

    They had no physics engines, they were isometric (no 3D graphics), they were limited in what you can do. If youo want  a blank canvas - world exploration 3D graphics, etc., then you need more horsepower and this is what I was talking about. We don't want to back to UO type graphics - especailly from a bigger company..

    Ok then let me bring forth to you a game called darkfall its a large world with no instances, another one planet side 2 another large world with no instances (PS2 also has one of the best physic engine and lighting ive seen in a game) it may not have NPC in there but it does have a heck of alot more places on the screen than MMORPG nowadays and i experience no lag at all.

    I have played it - the graphics were PITA - the game was laggy as all get out - had more bugs than D3 when it came out - very small population. Not a game on my radar.

    Graphic would of been dulled down a little for PS2 since its and FPS and FPS counts alot compared to a MMORPG, and i have no lag at all playing it even in the 100v100v100 or so fights on max settings. guess it doesnt agree with somthing in your computer apparently Radeon grpahic card dont perform as good as Nviidea since the phyx system was disgigned my Nvidea that there using in the lightforge engine so that may be causing ur lag.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by sanshi44

    This will do for now as you can see the been less effort put into games over the years, its late so im off to bed.

    But you failed to establish a correlational link between "number of instances" and "laziness". Without first establishing a link, number of instances is just a rote list...

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • steelheartxsteelheartx Member UncommonPosts: 434

    - Themepark questing

    - Lack of any death penalty at all

    - Maybe the fact that most MMOs seldom keep a player's attention for more than 3 months :(

     

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  • corpusccorpusc Member UncommonPosts: 1,341
    that MMOs NEED avatar/char progression.   ignoring your real life progression.

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    Corpus Callosum    

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  • corpusccorpusc Member UncommonPosts: 1,341

    that MMOs need pre-made stories

    that MMOs need pre-made factions that a player is forced to choose from

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    Corpus Callosum    

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  • Abuz0rAbuz0r Member UncommonPosts: 550
    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Quests in general.  I should say WoW Quests in general.

     

    Oh you created a character... pick your reward.

    Wow, you picked your first reward, choose another reward.

    You took your first step, pick a reward. 

    You equipped your reward, choose a reward.

    You leveled from doing nothing, choose your reward.

    You opened your inventory, choose a reward.

    You opened another menu by pressing a button, take a reward.

    You leveled again, take a reward.

    You typed a message in chat, have a reward.

    You spoke to a NPC, heres a reward.

    You took your first quest, have a reward.

    You spoke to the person standing next to the person who have you the quest, choose a reward.

    lol  You made me laugh, have a reward.

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    Originally posted by timtrack

    Things i don't like about cars:

    • Wheels
    • Engine
    • Doors
    • Painting
    • Windows
    • Seats
    • Air Conditioning
    • Dashboard
    • Gas-tank
    • Exhaust pipe
    • Seat-belts
    • Ability do drive and turn
    I love cars tho.

    Nice.

    It does make you wonder sometimes what genre people think they're playing.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by dreamsofwar
    Auction houses. I'd much rather see Western MMO's adopt a concept that many Asian MMO's have used, player stalls. It adds to the social aspect of the game, allows for bartering, and it just adds more life and atmosphere to cities, and other parts of the world. Imagine seeing a few player stalls outside of raid entrances, its little things like that I think would make games more immersive.

    Dear god NO.

     

    Nothing is as grotesque an eyesore then having thousands of off-line people standing around anywhere they please setting up a shop.

     

    Now I could buy this argument if it was at a players house but no, we do not need anything more to get people to clog up cities.

    This is a matter of taste. I will take player shops over auction house (which really isn't an actual auction house) any day. For some reason people hate the idea of having players all over selling their wares when in reality that's what a city is (among other things).

    The other thing is that the player shops put the power into the sellers hands. You pass buy, see a collection of mats fora certain price. Do you continue to look to see if anyone else has it or do you just accept the price the  player is offering. Or do you contact the player and see if you can talk him down. Meanwhile others might be looking for the same stuff.

    In any case "to each his own" but it's my preferred system.

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  • corpusccorpusc Member UncommonPosts: 1,341

    forcing everyone who plays a particular game into PVP.

    one of the most idiotic design choices ever.

     

     

    (%90-%95 of my gaming time since 1996 has been PVP, so don't get it twisted)

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    Corpus Callosum    

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by dave6660

    It does make you wonder sometimes what genre people think they're playing.


    "I'm so miserable, I hate this all so much...oooh, 5 silver!"

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • wartyxwtwartyxwt Member Posts: 172
    The notion that quests, dungeons or raids cannot occur in a sandbox game.
  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148Member CommonPosts: 6,690
    I kind of hate auction houses because players overprice items and it promotes gold selling.  It also makes the game way too easy for people to get gear. 
    30
  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    Originally posted by corpusc

    forcing everyone who plays a particular game into PVP.

    one of the most idiotic design choices ever.

     

     

    (%90-%95 of my gaming time since 1996 has been PVP, so don't get it twisted)

    I'm missing the problem.  If you don't like PvP then don't play that game.  Would you like to count the number of games that force you to PvE?  Variety is a good thing.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207
    Botryis
    Planetside 2 has fairly high end graphics and has No instancing whatsoever

    EQ and daoc had no instancing

    Instancing is a design choice to make a game more cooprpg and less mmo its got nothing to do with performance.

    Zoning on the other hand can Improve performance, but zoning and instancing are 2 separate things. Zoning I can live with provided its no over done.
  • i_evil_ii_evil_i Member UncommonPosts: 13

    -levels.

    -corpse running after you die.

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085

    - Primitive rulesystems

    Sigh. Oh how do people in this forum (and others) just LOVE the idea to have a skillbased system without classes. It sucks in every instance I've seen, it sucks because for obvious reasons, its harder to balance and thus often more unbalanced, it offers a lot less variance in actual gameplay than a well done class system, its in fact often a pain in actual gameplay, and yet again and again I read here how wonderful it would be to have, no matter how often and drastically these games fail in practice.

    But the next game will surely solve all these issues ! Somehow ! Just like physics will develop a perpetual motion machine - any second now ! They just have to ! Because there is so much demand for it !!!

     

    - Sandboxes

    Okay, I get it. Some people want a huge world they build themselves. Personally I'm not interested. You make a game ? Tell me a story ! I like themeparks. I want themeparks. You have no quest content ? Well, okay, no problem - then I'll go elsewhere. Theres plenty of sandbox features I like, such as a seamless world, but I want story content as well.

     

    - The newest fashion of the whatever timeframe

    The newest fashion people come up with that are suddenly SOO essential. Chess and Go are centuries old games, and they are still fun and popular. Why ? Because the rules of good game design havent changed !

    There is no new fashion thats essential. Whats essential is good game design, no matter how old or young the game in question is.

     

    - The upcoming MMO that will kill WoW or whatever

    People do it again and again. Its plain obvious a game wont change anything at all, and yet people fall for the same promises every time. Age of Conan changed nothing, Warhammer Online changed nothing, Darkfall changed nothing, Rift changed nothing, Star Wars: The Old Republic changed nothing, Guild Wars 2 changed nothing, and theres a good chance whatever is the next hype will probably change nothing, either.

    The only game where I actually was surprised about it was Star Wars. Granted, I never really expected great graphics or a great rulesystem. Bioware rulesystems just suck when they do them themselves, and graphics never was their strong point. But I still hoped that Bioware would remain Bioware under EA and give us a great user interface and wonderful story content, as they always did. Well, I've given up on that hope, now.

    There is always one such game around. In most cases, they wont do.

     

    And yes, WoW changed things. So its not always this way. But its much more rare than people think, and it doesnt depend upon the things people think it depends upon. Making a great MMO is, obviously, a huge task. The hype is often just that - hype.

    - A different world setting will make things better

    Sorry, but classic fantasy is classic for a very simple reason: you can include really everything else in it. You can even do SF easily: technology turns into magic, robots/droids turn into golems, teleport ... wait, thats just teleport in both cases. And so on.

    If you dont like classic fantasy games, good chances are that you wont like anything else, either.

     

  • corpusccorpusc Member UncommonPosts: 1,341
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by corpusc

    forcing everyone who plays a particular game into PVP.

    one of the most idiotic design choices ever.

     

     

    (%90-%95 of my gaming time since 1996 has been PVP, so don't get it twisted)

    I'm missing the problem.  If you don't like PvP then don't play that game.  Would you like to count the number of games that force you to PvE?  Variety is a good thing.

     

    i'm not surprised you missed that.

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    Corpus Callosum    

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