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EVE Online F2P

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  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    The moment EVE goes full F2P, is the moment it dies as a good MMO.
  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by BanquettoNot from players spending cash.

    There is a nice FAQ for you:
    https://en.support.guildwars2.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9175/~/guild-wars-2-gems

  • BanquettoBanquetto CityPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Gdemami
    Originally posted by BanquettoNot from players spending cash.

    There is a nice FAQ for you:
    https://en.support.guildwars2.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9175/~/guild-wars-2-gems



    Yep. That FAQ doesn't go into massive detail, but the key points are:


    Can I acquire gems in any other way?

    You may acquire Guild Wars 2 gems with in-game coins; see the currency exchange tab in the Black Lion Trading Company for details.



    i.e., only through the currency exchange run by ArenaNet; not through buying from other players for gold, via the Trading Post or any other means.


    Can I trade gems?

    You cannot trade gems.


  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Boardwalker
    I hope EVE never goes F2P. Having a sub is a great way to keep the freeloaders out, while ensuring consistent updates and free expansions from CCP.

          How is F2P freeloading?   I'm curious how and why you see it that way..  Have you heard of the saying "something is better then nothing"?  There is alot of truth in that..  There are many players such as myself that only play casually on weekends.. Paying for a sub is just careless and crazy..  I'm an advid golfer when weather permits.. Sure I would LOVE a subscription based golf course that allows me to golf all I want, whenever I want.. But should everyone, even the guy that golfs once a month pay the same monthly golf sub.?  Oh hell no..

         When a game has ONLY a subscrption option, if forces people to go  "ALL IN" or fold.. Just like poker..  If a B2P cash shop is set up properly, then both subs and pay as you go customers can co-exist..  As I said in my post, I would have no problem buying unlockables as I play..  Getting $50 out of me per year is better then nothing, which is what they are getting now from me with a manditory sub..  

    Your post just plainly tells us you don't understand anything about EVE.

    in exchange of every paltry 50 USD per year from casuals like you, they would probably lose ten times the amount from customers disgusted by rampant spammers, spy alts, corp thieves et cetera.

    F2P just would not work for EVE. It would cause more problems than solve anything, resulting in the paying customers to leave quickly and the death of the game.

     

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Banquetto

    Yep. That FAQ doesn't go into massive detail, but the key points are:

    It is funny how you pick only parts that remotely suits your case but leave out the essential. First 3 question:

    Where can I purchase gems?

    At present, you can purchase Guild Wars 2 gems by visiting the Gem Store through the Black Lion Trading Company. You can reach the trading company by pressing the “O” key or by clicking the lion head in the upper-left corner of the game interface.

    What forms of payment does the Gem Store accept?

    The Guild Wars 2 Gem Store accepts payments via credit cards—Visa, MasterCard, American Express, and JCB Card—as well as through PayPal.

    What currency will the Gem Store use for my purchase?

    When you open the Gem Store billing interface, you will be asked to select your country. Prices will be presented in the currency associated with the country you selected. You will be required to enter a billing address that matches the country you selected to complete the purchase. You may change your country at any time. Gems may be purchased using Euros, U.S. Dollars, or British Pounds.


    While Gems are not a subject to free market, ANet is controlling exchange price in similar manner as supply/demand forces would do - ie. gold price of gems would drop only in case when more people buy gems for real cash, causing oversupply.


  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by RydesonBut should everyone, even the guy that golfs once a month pay the same monthly golf sub.? 

    The problem with EVE is the core design that is very unfriendly to F2P model - real time skilling, complex industry system.

    I have no doubt CCP would make the game F2P if they think it will make them more money, problem is HOW to make EVE F2P without changing fundamental mechanics of the game.


    EVE is quite more complex than any F2P game and it ain't as easy as to just "setup a cash shop".

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Boardwalker
    I hope EVE never goes F2P. Having a sub is a great way to keep the freeloaders out, while ensuring consistent updates and free expansions from CCP.

          How is F2P freeloading?   I'm curious how and why you see it that way..  Have you heard of the saying "something is better then nothing"?  There is alot of truth in that..  There are many players such as myself that only play casually on weekends.. Paying for a sub is just careless and crazy..  I'm an advid golfer when weather permits.. Sure I would LOVE a subscription based golf course that allows me to golf all I want, whenever I want.. But should everyone, even the guy that golfs once a month pay the same monthly golf sub.?  Oh hell no..

         When a game has ONLY a subscrption option, if forces people to go  "ALL IN" or fold.. Just like poker..  If a B2P cash shop is set up properly, then both subs and pay as you go customers can co-exist..  As I said in my post, I would have no problem buying unlockables as I play..  Getting $50 out of me per year is better then nothing, which is what they are getting now from me with a manditory sub..  

    Your post just plainly tells us you don't understand anything about EVE.

    in exchange of every paltry 50 USD per year from casuals like you, they would probably lose ten times the amount from customers disgusted by rampant spammers, spy alts, corp thieves et cetera. Really?  It's amazing that so many sub games already suffer from spammes and such, so subbing doesn't guarantee you anything.. And as I said, if the cash shop model is done correctly there would be no need for spamming because they wouldn't be in business..  Spy alts?  Already exist for those that own more then one account.. I believe you are reaching for "possibilities" to excuse your bias stance.. 

    F2P just would not work for EVE. It would cause more problems than solve anything, resulting in the paying customers to leave quickly and the death of the game.  I'm all ears.. do inform us all how F2P would not work.. I don't want vague "could of, should and would of".. I want factual details please..

    Thank you.

     

     

  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Greencastle, INPosts: 2,594Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Boardwalker
    I hope EVE never goes F2P. Having a sub is a great way to keep the freeloaders out, while ensuring consistent updates and free expansions from CCP.

          How is F2P freeloading?   I'm curious how and why you see it that way..  Have you heard of the saying "something is better then nothing"?  There is alot of truth in that..  There are many players such as myself that only play casually on weekends.. Paying for a sub is just careless and crazy..  I'm an advid golfer when weather permits.. Sure I would LOVE a subscription based golf course that allows me to golf all I want, whenever I want.. But should everyone, even the guy that golfs once a month pay the same monthly golf sub.?  Oh hell no..

         When a game has ONLY a subscrption option, if forces people to go  "ALL IN" or fold.. Just like poker..  If a B2P cash shop is set up properly, then both subs and pay as you go customers can co-exist..  As I said in my post, I would have no problem buying unlockables as I play..  Getting $50 out of me per year is better then nothing, which is what they are getting now from me with a manditory sub..  

    Your post just plainly tells us you don't understand anything about EVE.

    in exchange of every paltry 50 USD per year from casuals like you, they would probably lose ten times the amount from customers disgusted by rampant spammers, spy alts, corp thieves et cetera. Really?  It's amazing that so many sub games already suffer from spammes and such, so subbing doesn't guarantee you anything.. And as I said, if the cash shop model is done correctly there would be no need for spamming because they wouldn't be in business..  Spy alts?  Already exist for those that own more then one account.. I believe you are reaching for "possibilities" to excuse your bias stance.. 

    F2P just would not work for EVE. It would cause more problems than solve anything, resulting in the paying customers to leave quickly and the death of the game.  I'm all ears.. do inform us all how F2P would not work.. I don't want vague "could of, should and would of".. I want factual details please..

    Thank you.

    The " Hive " is feeling a disturbance here.

    image

  • BanquettoBanquetto CityPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Gdemami
    It is funny how you pick only parts that remotely suits your case but leave out the essential. First 3 question:


    Gdemami, I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.


    Is it your claim that gems for gold in GW2 involves players directly buying and selling from each other? That each and every gem bought for gold is matched up with one gem purchased for cash and sold for gold?


    Because I'm claiming that that is not the case.



    Originally posted by Gdemami
    While Gems are not a subject to free market, ANet is controlling exchange price in similar manner as supply/demand forces would do - ie. gold price of gems would drop only in case when more people buy gems for real cash, causing oversupply.


    ..and it kind of sounds like you agree with me?


    So I'm not sure what our argument is.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Banquetto

    Originally posted by Gdemami
    It is funny how you pick only parts that remotely suits your case but leave out the essential. First 3 question:


    Gdemami, I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.


    Is it your claim that gems for gold in GW2 involves players directly buying and selling from each other? That each and every gem bought for gold is matched up with one gem purchased for cash and sold for gold?


    Because I'm claiming that that is not the case.

    And you'd be wrong. All gems on the market were purchased and placed there by players. "The gems and gold players get from the Currency Exchange are supplied by other players, not ArenaNet." (source)

    Is it possible that there may be no available gems one day as a result of that? Possible, but not at all probable.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by BanquettoSo I'm not sure what our argument is.

    The point is, you claimed that Gems are not purchased with real money.


    Originally posted by BanquettoNot from players spending cash.


    Gems are not ordinary item with infinite supply you can purchase for gold, something you were implying. It is quite more complex than that and much closer to PLEX system, just in GW2 case ANet stepped in as a regulator in the process.

  • haplo602haplo602 Posts: 212Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Boardwalker
    I hope EVE never goes F2P. Having a sub is a great way to keep the freeloaders out, while ensuring consistent updates and free expansions from CCP.

          How is F2P freeloading?   I'm curious how and why you see it that way..  Have you heard of the saying "something is better then nothing"?  There is alot of truth in that..  There are many players such as myself that only play casually on weekends.. Paying for a sub is just careless and crazy..  I'm an advid golfer when weather permits.. Sure I would LOVE a subscription based golf course that allows me to golf all I want, whenever I want.. But should everyone, even the guy that golfs once a month pay the same monthly golf sub.?  Oh hell no..

         When a game has ONLY a subscrption option, if forces people to go  "ALL IN" or fold.. Just like poker..  If a B2P cash shop is set up properly, then both subs and pay as you go customers can co-exist..  As I said in my post, I would have no problem buying unlockables as I play..  Getting $50 out of me per year is better then nothing, which is what they are getting now from me with a manditory sub..  

    Your post just plainly tells us you don't understand anything about EVE.

    in exchange of every paltry 50 USD per year from casuals like you, they would probably lose ten times the amount from customers disgusted by rampant spammers, spy alts, corp thieves et cetera. Really?  It's amazing that so many sub games already suffer from spammes and such, so subbing doesn't guarantee you anything.. And as I said, if the cash shop model is done correctly there would be no need for spamming because they wouldn't be in business..  Spy alts?  Already exist for those that own more then one account.. I believe you are reaching for "possibilities" to excuse your bias stance.. 

    F2P just would not work for EVE. It would cause more problems than solve anything, resulting in the paying customers to leave quickly and the death of the game.  I'm all ears.. do inform us all how F2P would not work.. I don't want vague "could of, should and would of".. I want factual details please..

    Thank you.

     

     

    It is quite simple. The highest order PvP in EVE does work on heavy metagaming (spies, scams etc.). This means financial investment to keep a spy account. Trial accounts do not work for this purpose. If EVE was F2P, there'd be no limit to metagaming and the most exciting parts of the game would die. If you remove the interesting endgame parts from the game, what do you think the result will be ?

     

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    And you'd be wrong. All gems on the market were purchased by players. Is it possible that there may be no available gems one day as a result of that? Possible, but not at all probable.

    It is not technically correct since players do not sell Gems for gold individually and Gem supply is probably infinite but that still does not imply they can be acquired at infinite rate - their price would go up as their supply goes down, regulated by ANet same way free market would do in EVE Online with PLEX.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gdemami

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    And you'd be wrong. All gems on the market were purchased by players. Is it possible that there may be no available gems one day as a result of that? Possible, but not at all probable.

    It is not technically correct since players do not sell Gems for gold individually and Gem supply is probably infinite but that still does not imply they can be acquired at infinite rate - their price would go up as their supply goes down, regulated by ANet same way free market would do in EVE Online with PLEX.

    Whether game or government, market regulation is a given. :)

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by LoktofeitWhether game or government, market regulation is a given. :)

    Precisely :)

    Didn't want to nitpick, rather my intention was to clarify.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by haplo602
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Boardwalker
    I hope EVE never goes F2P. Having a sub is a great way to keep the freeloaders out, while ensuring consistent updates and free expansions from CCP.

          How is F2P freeloading?   I'm curious how and why you see it that way..  Have you heard of the saying "something is better then nothing"?  There is alot of truth in that..  There are many players such as myself that only play casually on weekends.. Paying for a sub is just careless and crazy..  I'm an advid golfer when weather permits.. Sure I would LOVE a subscription based golf course that allows me to golf all I want, whenever I want.. But should everyone, even the guy that golfs once a month pay the same monthly golf sub.?  Oh hell no..

         When a game has ONLY a subscrption option, if forces people to go  "ALL IN" or fold.. Just like poker..  If a B2P cash shop is set up properly, then both subs and pay as you go customers can co-exist..  As I said in my post, I would have no problem buying unlockables as I play..  Getting $50 out of me per year is better then nothing, which is what they are getting now from me with a manditory sub..  

    Your post just plainly tells us you don't understand anything about EVE.

    in exchange of every paltry 50 USD per year from casuals like you, they would probably lose ten times the amount from customers disgusted by rampant spammers, spy alts, corp thieves et cetera. Really?  It's amazing that so many sub games already suffer from spammes and such, so subbing doesn't guarantee you anything.. And as I said, if the cash shop model is done correctly there would be no need for spamming because they wouldn't be in business..  Spy alts?  Already exist for those that own more then one account.. I believe you are reaching for "possibilities" to excuse your bias stance.. 

    F2P just would not work for EVE. It would cause more problems than solve anything, resulting in the paying customers to leave quickly and the death of the game.  I'm all ears.. do inform us all how F2P would not work.. I don't want vague "could of, should and would of".. I want factual details please..

    Thank you.

     

     

    It is quite simple. The highest order PvP in EVE does work on heavy metagaming (spies, scams etc.). This means financial investment to keep a spy account. Trial accounts do not work for this purpose. If EVE was F2P, there'd be no limit to metagaming and the most exciting parts of the game would die. If you remove the interesting endgame parts from the game, what do you think the result will be ?

     

    The reason why trial accounts don't work is because you are locked OUT of doing much after a certain point.. same can be done with F2P.... I don't know why so many assume that F2P means "everything" is free with no restrictions.. As I have said, if F2P was set up correctly, it would not cause any problems against full paying subs..  HELL.. I would even be interested in a limited sub plan.. Such as $5 a month and I get 10 hours of game time per month as an example..

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Rydeson

     

    But should everyone, even the guy that golfs once a month pay the same monthly golf sub.? 


     

    The problem with EVE is the core design that is very unfriendly to F2P model - real time skilling, complex industry system.

    I have no doubt CCP would make the game F2P if they think it will make them more money, problem is HOW to make EVE F2P without changing fundamental mechanics of the game.


    EVE is quite more complex than any F2P game and it ain't as easy as to just "setup a cash shop".

    EVE is plenty easy to set up.. They already did it with trial accounts.. Each skill, each ship, each stargate can be controlled with "unlockables"..  Pay as you go..

  • KrematoryKrematory TVNPosts: 542Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
     
      HELL.. I would even be interested in a limited sub plan.. Such as $5 a month and I get 10 hours of game time per month as an example..

    Now that would be a good idea, and not only for EVE.

    "EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Rydeson

    EVE is plenty easy to set up.. They already did it with trial accounts.. Each skill, each ship, each stargate can be controlled with "unlockables"..  Pay as you go..

    Trials only work because they are time limited.

    This is not how EVE works, and a reason why all EVE expansions are free - because being able to access all content of EVE is vital part of the core game design.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Rydeson

    The reason why trial accounts don't work is because you are locked OUT of doing much after a certain point..

    There is no "certain point", no such thing exist in EVE. You do not get EVE at all.

  • KiljaedenasKiljaedenas New Westminster, BCPosts: 468Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Boardwalker
    I hope EVE never goes F2P. Having a sub is a great way to keep the freeloaders out, while ensuring consistent updates and free expansions from CCP.

          How is F2P freeloading?   I'm curious how and why you see it that way..  Have you heard of the saying "something is better then nothing"?  There is alot of truth in that..  There are many players such as myself that only play casually on weekends.. Paying for a sub is just careless and crazy..  I'm an advid golfer when weather permits.. Sure I would LOVE a subscription based golf course that allows me to golf all I want, whenever I want.. But should everyone, even the guy that golfs once a month pay the same monthly golf sub.?  Oh hell no..

         When a game has ONLY a subscrption option, if forces people to go  "ALL IN" or fold.. Just like poker..  If a B2P cash shop is set up properly, then both subs and pay as you go customers can co-exist..  As I said in my post, I would have no problem buying unlockables as I play..  Getting $50 out of me per year is better then nothing, which is what they are getting now from me with a manditory sub..  

    Your post just plainly tells us you don't understand anything about EVE.

    in exchange of every paltry 50 USD per year from casuals like you, they would probably lose ten times the amount from customers disgusted by rampant spammers, spy alts, corp thieves et cetera. Really?  It's amazing that so many sub games already suffer from spammes and such, so subbing doesn't guarantee you anything.. And as I said, if the cash shop model is done correctly there would be no need for spamming because they wouldn't be in business..  Spy alts?  Already exist for those that own more then one account.. I believe you are reaching for "possibilities" to excuse your bias stance.. 

    F2P just would not work for EVE. It would cause more problems than solve anything, resulting in the paying customers to leave quickly and the death of the game.  I'm all ears.. do inform us all how F2P would not work.. I don't want vague "could of, should and would of".. I want factual details please..

    Thank you.

     

     

    That particular discussion has been had before. Read this: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5415659#5415659

    Particularly my post on it. It explains in explicit detail why Eve going F2P is a catastrophically bad idea.

    Where's the any key?

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    EVE is plenty easy to set up.. They already did it with trial accounts.. Each skill, each ship, each stargate can be controlled with "unlockables"..  Pay as you go..

    Holy shit.  You want to pay for each new gate you jump through?  If that was the case I would owe CCP a small fortune.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Rydeson

    The reason why trial accounts don't work is because you are locked OUT of doing much after a certain point..

     

    There is no "certain point", no such thing exist in EVE. You do not get EVE at all.

    WRONG.. I'm playing the trial and by the time you finish the first stage of missions, there are skills that are NOT learnable with trial accounts..... THEY are locked.. Same set up can be done wtih F2P cash shop..  I"m thinking you dont' know the true facts about EVE and trial accounts.. 

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kiljaedenas
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Boardwalker
    I hope EVE never goes F2P. Having a sub is a great way to keep the freeloaders out, while ensuring consistent updates and free expansions from CCP.

          How is F2P freeloading?   I'm curious how and why you see it that way..  Have you heard of the saying "something is better then nothing"?  There is alot of truth in that..  There are many players such as myself that only play casually on weekends.. Paying for a sub is just careless and crazy..  I'm an advid golfer when weather permits.. Sure I would LOVE a subscription based golf course that allows me to golf all I want, whenever I want.. But should everyone, even the guy that golfs once a month pay the same monthly golf sub.?  Oh hell no..

         When a game has ONLY a subscrption option, if forces people to go  "ALL IN" or fold.. Just like poker..  If a B2P cash shop is set up properly, then both subs and pay as you go customers can co-exist..  As I said in my post, I would have no problem buying unlockables as I play..  Getting $50 out of me per year is better then nothing, which is what they are getting now from me with a manditory sub..  

    Your post just plainly tells us you don't understand anything about EVE.

    in exchange of every paltry 50 USD per year from casuals like you, they would probably lose ten times the amount from customers disgusted by rampant spammers, spy alts, corp thieves et cetera. Really?  It's amazing that so many sub games already suffer from spammes and such, so subbing doesn't guarantee you anything.. And as I said, if the cash shop model is done correctly there would be no need for spamming because they wouldn't be in business..  Spy alts?  Already exist for those that own more then one account.. I believe you are reaching for "possibilities" to excuse your bias stance.. 

    F2P just would not work for EVE. It would cause more problems than solve anything, resulting in the paying customers to leave quickly and the death of the game.  I'm all ears.. do inform us all how F2P would not work.. I don't want vague "could of, should and would of".. I want factual details please..

    Thank you.

     

     

    That particular discussion has been had before. Read this: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5415659#5415659

    Particularly my post on it. It explains in explicit detail why Eve going F2P is a catastrophically bad idea.

    Those are not facts but opinion why YOU feel F2P would fail.. and you use YOUR rules of F2P to justify..  TRY again..  Thank you

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    EVE is plenty easy to set up.. They already did it with trial accounts.. Each skill, each ship, each stargate can be controlled with "unlockables"..  Pay as you go..

    Holy shit.  You want to pay for each new gate you jump through?  If that was the case I would owe CCP a small fortune.

    The fortune it would cost me would be up there, too. :)

    One day in Sank and Jita, next day back in Alenia, then a couple days doing missions in Arraron, then back to Jita for selling and mischief... suddenly the $13.00 to take the GWB out of NY seems like pennies. :)

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

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