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More of the same, again.
dotdotdash
Member UncommonPosts: 488
Earlier today I decided to bite the bullet and watch the latest TESO teaser trailer. I went in expecting a video designed to lure me in with tidbits about the games "many and varied" ways to acquire gear; low and behold, that's what I got. Behind all of the gimmicky nonsense and developer nonspeak there lies a reality that many probably don't want to admit: The Elder Scrolls Online is more of the same, again.
At the start of the video Matt Firor - a veteran MMO developer (which is as much a problem as it is a boon) - makes a startlingly ignorant and highly amusing comment to the effect of, "The Elder Scrolls Online is designed to bring fans of The Elder Scrolls together with fans of the MMORPG genre." In one breathe, Matt Firor goes from being an educated, respected and knowledgable MMO developer to a man who knows very little about the franchise he's working with. You see, there may be SOME TES fans out there that have never played an MMO, and there may be SOME MMO fans out there that have never played TES... but they are few and far between. There is a HUGE amount of cross over between the two communities, so suggesting that they are diametrically opposed and are in need of some cupid-style matchmaking is baffling at best. In reality, Firor knows this to be the case... and it's probably true that this is just poor marketing speech that wasn't really thought through before it was scripted, but still... If you're going to make bold claims about your target audience, try to make them abstract enough that they can't lead to your mocking dismissal.
Anyway...
The game looks "alright", in the sense that every MMO since WoW has looked "alright". The graphics are, as we have come to expect, a compomise between the system-breaking attempts at photo-realism present in Skyrim, and the system-friendly cartoonisms of World of Warcraft. To be expect, for sure, but I would very much like it if a major MMO developer would define their own art direction, as opposed to simply upscaling slightly on what Blizzard is offering. The video CLEARLY display the SAME harsh lines and uninspiring colour pallette (if a little larger) as WoW has displayed for the last 8 years, and no amount of throwing watered down Skyrim textures into the mix is likely to hide this. It seems to me that the art department's remit was simply "make Skyrim look like WoW... or the other way round...". They've done a great job at that, but it's not really inspired me to any degree. At all.
The lore and history of The Elder Scrolls is perhaps unrivalled in it volume (and, perhaps, it quality). Between Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim there is a wealth of great lore pieces that could be used to great effect in TESO, so I'm thoroughly glad to see them going all out in that direction. The problem I have here comes down to something I'll discuss a little more later on: MMO compromises. It's become a trend in the genre to retcon and compromise on lore in order to make certain situations in game more... "believable"? World of Warcraft is famous for its habit of taking worthwhile storylines from the RTS games and novels of old, and watering them down so that they can fit the key characters and plot points into the dungeon and raid equation. The Elder Scrolls Online has both dungeons and raids, so my worry is quite reasonable: when, where and how arre ZeniMax Online going to compromise on the lore of TES in order to make it fit an MMO environment? There will be those who'll say it won't happen, just like there were those who said it wouldn't happen to LotRo, WAR, AoC and SWTOR; in all cases... they were wrong, and it did happen. We can only presume it's going to happen in TESO as well. FOR SHAME.
At this point, I just get his horrible feeling that TESO is a typical MMO - ala WoW - with some "Skyrim" gimmicks thrown in for good measure. The combat system, for example, hasn't really been outlined or demonstrated in great details, but from the video footage I saw today... it really does look like a standard "lock and cast" system with directional attacks, similar in nature to Guild Wars 2. Simply having sneaking does not an Elder Scrolls combat system make, yet it feels like that's really all ZMO have to do to make it feel like a TES game. Throw in some directional attacks and shiled blocking, and it doesn't really matter what else they do with the combat, right? Wrong. Even from the little footage displayed, it's clear at this point that the combat system we're getting in TESO is not a combat system deeply rooted in the TES tradition of a more "FPS" style RPG ruleset. Again, FOR SHAME.
Despite ZMO's claims that TESO is "different" from all other MMOs, they peddled the same elements that all other MMOs peddle when trying to be different - crafting, raiding, dungeons, questing, PvP. They all sounded eerily familiar, yet the developers seemed to be trying to make them sound wildly different. Questing, for example, is ultimately the same affair in TESO that it is in WoW; the only difference is that Blizzard organises quest givers into neat little packages, where TESO wants you to run around like a headless chicken. PvP is, again, exactly the same as in Guild Wars 2, or the more open zonal PvP in World of Warcraft. It all just sounds very, very, very samey to me.
Matt Firor again made a cracking comment: "The game opens up at level 50." This single statement implies that yet again we will be thrown onto an endgame gear treadmill, and expected to raid constantly to progress. Why can't the game open up at... say... level 1?????!!!!! Is that too obvious, or unreasonable, or what? In neither Oblivion nor Skyrim did I feel compelled to level. Levels were just this thing that happened as I moved through the game world, yet my experience was not hampered by ever having to be a particular level to get particular things done. In TESO, the opposite is true: you will have to level to move forward, and once you hit cap... the game will let you do all of the things you want to do. The same applies to armour: in Skyrim I crafted armour when I wanted to, but there was never any overt need to do so. In TESO, gear is important... and the video seems to imply that in order to get anywhere, or compete against other players, you'll have to get that gear.
Also, I DON'T CARE ONE JOT ABOUT "MEGASERVER" OR THE TECH BEHIND IT. If the game places me in a community I like, that is numerous and vibrant, I will be happy. If it does not, I will complain. Outside of that, I couldn't give a flying rats wings what the system that places me is called or how it works. It's not part of the game. It's a peripheral service. Like most consumers, I don't take my car to get repaired on the provision that the mechanic explains in detail how he's going to repair it. I just take it there broken, pick it up fixed, and that's enough for me.
So yeah... TESO looks lame. SWTOR lame. If they charge a sub fee for it, it'll sink like a brick tied to several other bricks. If they don't charge a sub fee for it, it'll sink just before it makes land off the island of prosperity (sort of like what Guild Wars 2 is doing). Either way, the game looks utterly and totally rubbish in almost all regards.
As I said at the start... Matt Firor is a veteran MMO developer (famed for DAOC I believe). In this instance, that's like saying you got the guy who invented the bicycle to build a car... because he's an expert in wheels. Matt Firor comes across as an ignorant developer, entrenched in a development philosophy that should have died out years ago.
Done.
Comments
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
I can't say I share the negativity you all are expressing.To project so much from the little we know(shakes head).
As for me.....I see a Director I respect and rich lore. I look forward to learning more in the months ahead.
Oh me too, I can't wait for the game and am excited to hear everything about it. This is the wrong site to look for info on any game that you look forward too though with all the arm chair developers lol.
Nothing about TES has interested me thusfar.
It's not different, it's not new. It's a standard AAA themepark MMORPG with DAOC PVP sales spin.
Lol they even brought public dungeons back, theres a reason they disappeared, it was because it sucked having people stealth camp the dungeon, basically removes the dungeon from the map for most players because it turns into a pvp fest and the boss is sitting in the corner.
Ohh yea, everyone gets stealth.
So far I forsee a large sale of TEStanic ticket sales followed by a sinking ship.
The reason so many games get fragged here at MMORPG is because you have two very different camps of players.
Those that like the sandbox older generation games. Where your story was detailed by what you accomplished and did in a game, and less about what the dev's said your story would be. (Eve, Asheron's Call, etc etc)
And then you have the people that like the themepark type games. Games that you are lead around, told where to go by exclamation marks or hearts, and everyone has the same or similar stories. But lack the freedom you see in true sandbox element type games. (WoW, GW2, SWToR, etc etc)
But here's the rub. The industry has migrated away from sandboxes (untill recently) and catered almost exclusivly to the themepark genra of MMORPG's. Thus all of those people in camp #1 haven't had a great game to play for years (aside from EvE online), and they are angry at all of the attention that the themepark camp has gotten while they feel ignored and left by the wayside. On MMORPG.com the 1st camp is definitly the vocal minority. So any game that leans toward camp #2 gets bashed repeatidly.
OMG you have opened up my mind, How could I not see that every one of your words were totally 100% truth, god bless the gospel according to dotdotdash!
All I can say I addressed your first paragraph wchich is in light blue above and I couldnt bother to adress any more as you are obviously biased and have an agenda. Nothing you state is true and even though you are entitled to your opinions, you not entitled to your own facts. Might I sugest next time condensing your words into something more appropriate such as "LOL WOW CLONE" That way we can save both of us some time.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
On top of this, he watched a video from an earlier release without knowing full details based on the October press event where hundreds of bloggers, community leaders, and press got to go and play the thing for a day. None of them were allowed to record film and all of them who had soemthign to say said the game looks, feels and plays like a Elder Scroll Series game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLp0ykvotEI
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Video rundown of what features make a AAA MMORPG in 2013 selling hotcake:
Hotbar, 5 interchangable spells, 1 Ultimate spell.
6 Spells and mouse click autoattack. Block on mouse click as well.
XP bonuses for "effective key presses". (heres your gold star timmy)
Mobs have AI. But they start as target dummies.
Quests are phased and change the world, feels like MoP questing.
Raids and dungeons at "endgame".
Not fully soloable game.
1 megaserver. Questionaire for finding like minded individuals.
Wear anything, use anything, (do anything? is clearly exagerrated.)
DW nord dragonslayer thats third person hotbar that plays just like Skyrim! <- Lol
He's a clicker <- Lol
He didn't have to remember more then 5 spells which he thought was great. <-- lol wth
200 ppl on screen at time.
Sorry that youtube video is rediculous, he touts features that so many AAA games have been doing for years, been selling for years as amazing new stuff.
It doesn't sound anything like Skyrim, its about as far from skyrim as it could possibly get.
While I agree that Youtube video above is created by hyped reporter with not much tangible evidence to back it up, on which facts do you conclude that the game is far from Skyrim as it could possibly get?
According to announced dev info, the game will have 1st person camera, dodge and block using stamina, plenty of caves to explore (at least as much as in current Elder scrolls games, according to devs), freedom of choice regarding weapons and armor types etc.
So, if they implement the features they've already announced, to me, it sounds pretty close to Skyrim as it could possibly get in an MMO.
you know its a MMO to right? what did you expect them to do without the hotbar...10,000 players with a pause function to pick spells and ability's? I don't know why but I just don't think that would work.... I'm not even sure what other point's you were trying to make, the game isn't called Skyrim CoOp. It's a MMO you can't do things in a MMO that you can in a single player game.
Well done OP, you are speaking on behalf of many TES fans.
I agree with everything, in particular the bit where you say that TES players and MMO players are the same thing, not 2 separate entities that needs to be connnected as Matt Firor think it is.
I started playing MMO because of Morrowind, I liked the game so much that I was wishing that the game never ended.........then I found out about Everquest and it all started from there.
The second truth is that a MMO do not need to be enjoyable at 50. Skyrim has levels but you do not feel it, because you can play ALL the content from lvl 1, why no MMO has ever done that?
What GW2 did right was to implement the scalability system, where content is scaled DOWN so you can enjoy the old content and still get XP and decent loot.
What would be even better is if a MMO could implement a scale UP system where a low level player could do high lvl instances and raids but he only gets XP and loot appropriate for his level.
That would be more TES..........but Matt Firor probably thinks "it is too difficult to make" (Lol this guy should really shut up)
I repeat CONTENT SCALABILITY is integral part of Skyrim (Please Matt ask Bethesda Studios how they did it, if you don't have a clue)
I don't see anything wrong with Matt's statement. There will be fans of both TES and MMOs playing this game. And since Skyrim was popular, I am sure non TES fans will be interested to play TESO. After the game releases, it will be known if it's a success or a flop.
Oh I dunno but maybe based on the "50? levels of WoW Mist of pandaria style questing"
How about zone progression and the 1-15 zone then the 15-25 zone...
1st person camera?, everything I've seen and read about has stated third person.
Dodge wasn't stated as making it, they did state that block was in the game.
The freedom to wear heavy or light armour pales in comparison to "50 levels of wow questing and zone progression"
Sad truth is than Darkfall Online feels more like a TES online than the actual TESO.
A company with 10 could do that while a company of 100's can create there own product and has to copy.
sad
huge seemingless open world ? no
free character skill system ? no
first/third person mouse aiming? nope
GuildWars2 with an TES Mod ? yes
The fact is that you people need to start to set your expectations more realistically. WoW is WoW. It does not seem that another MMO can emulate that success or longevity. However, that does not mean that other MMOs cannot be enjoyable. I enjoyed SWTOR for few months. I have read that many have enjoyed GW2 and The Secret World for few months. That seems to be the trend. Play a game for few months and move along until a major content patch or expansions. I see nothing wrong with this. The market has changed and the player base has become more diverse.
These days we have a number of relatively good MMOs. This was not the case back when WoW launced. We had Ultima Online, Everquest, Everquest 2, Anarchy Online, EVE and Star Wars Galaxies (and few others small games). All were niche games with dedicated, but small player base. WoW brought MMOs to mainstream gaming by seriously cutting down the tediousness of MMOs. Thanks to the success of WoW, we have more new titles and expansions released every year.
I am going to play TESO, but I am not expecting to stay with it more than few months. I am sure that I will have fun.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
So...he is wrong because you are right?
Stopped reading right there.
From what they've said the quests will be similar to skyrim, less of them but bigger, the other games that sprang to mind in their description were tsw (the less but bigger thing) , gw2 (events and stuff) and how quests in war were supposed to work, but didnt in the end (you kill 30 wolves on your way somewhere, you just hand it in to the guy who would have given you a quest)
Lol anyone else remember the Paul barnet hype machine on that one then the sudden wtf where Is it at launch?
How can you say that Dark fall online ( which was a terrible game btw ) feels more like a TES when TESO is'nt even out yet? Man oh man people like you really do try do you? Heres an idea, stop speculating and play the damn thing when it comes out, because now you just look foolish.
Darkfall feels more like trash with piss poor aniamtions, total griefing gankfest and no sense of exploration in a PvE world. Tell me when was the last Elder Scrolls Game to feature consentual PvP let alone FFA full loot PvP.
Just because a game inludes a hardcore feature does not automatically make it similar to TES!
huge seemingless open world ? YES, 3 different factions with huge zones to explore each about the size of 1 WoW continent from some estimations. Along with a mega huge zone in Cryodill which features open PvP
free character skill system ? YES, jsut because their are character classes doesnt mean that each is cookie cutter. The ability to wear any armor or equip any weapon and grow with that is as close to being classless based as one can get.
first/third person mouse aiming? You live in a rock or do you jsut parrot the standard crap you hear without doing a modicum of research. ESO will feature 1st and 3rd person reticule based combat which is EXACTLY like the single player games.
GuildWars2 with an TES Mod ? Not hardly, while it has some similarities with GW2 (namely limited hotbar) it doesnt feature none of the important things that make GW2, GW2 such as Dynamic Events, Weapon switching, removal of the trinity, down scaling, rigid weapon skills, bland utility skills or any other similarity that matters on the surface.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Does that mean you can max out every skill in the game like you could in any other TES game?
Can you raid cities? steal from any npc you find? Will it be cinematics free? Can you kill the boss of the dungeon by sneaking without ever having to confront him? Will you be able to design your own spells? What about your own magic items? will the npcs have their own lives?
Can you kill people for their stuff? live as a bandit, hide in the forest? can you attack enemies fortress without having to go and ask permision from an NPC? and do i own said fortress if i sucess?
why do i have to pick a faction? can i just say "screw it" and start attaking my own faction? can you get an argonian maid to polish your spear?
just give up on playing MMO's. you and people like you will never be happy again.
Skyrim has sold more than double the copies on pc on the consoles. And you don't get mmos on consoles.