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Is The West Getting Beat By The East?

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  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    All I know is that I'm tired of Korean developers trying to sell the same rehashed mmo grind to the US market.  Every one of their MMO's seems to be a cash shop quantity-over-quality experience.  You know all the old school MMO's that people keep wishing would come back?  Western MMO's.  You know the sea of generic MMO's that has saturated the market in the last 5 years?  Eastern.

    The old MMOs that you're talking about had little direction besides maybe UO. In the old Western MMOs there was way more grind than there is in the ones they have now. Not to mention when anyone adds open world PvP like the old Western MMOs had there, the major population rages about ganking and the like.

     

    It's time to accept the fact that "hardcore" PvP old schoolers are largely in the minor population. And that's not to be critical of these group of players considering I used to be one of those players.

    Smile

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Originally posted by Thorbrand
    Asian games have always been better than NA games since electronic gaming was invented. I want to know why I can't play the Asian version of the games and why I have to play dumbed down NA versions all the time?

    Ohhhh really?  Then whay is it that some of the most renowned and hall of fame games are WESTERN games?  Baulders Gate, Icewind Dale, Wing Commander, the Ultimas, Mass Effect series, Planescape Torument to name a few.  Sure there are some great Asian games out there but there are just as many if not more as good if not better games that were developed by Westerners.

    Not eveyone wants to be just like Sephi or *rolls eyes* Cloud.   Personally find Eastern games more times than not unappealing.

    Now ask where the hall of fame games is located... Oh right, here in the West *cough*

    Smile

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by Razeekster
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    All I know is that I'm tired of Korean developers trying to sell the same rehashed mmo grind to the US market.  Every one of their MMO's seems to be a cash shop quantity-over-quality experience.  You know all the old school MMO's that people keep wishing would come back?  Western MMO's.  You know the sea of generic MMO's that has saturated the market in the last 5 years?  Eastern.

    The old MMOs that you're talking about had little direction besides maybe UO. In the old Western MMOs there was way more grind than there is in the ones they have now. Not to mention when anyone adds open world PvP like the old Western MMOs had there, the major population rages about ganking and the like.

     

    It's time to accept the fact that "hardcore" PvP old schoolers are largely in the minor population. And that's not to be critical of these group of players considering I used to be one of those players.

    As grindy as they were, they couldnt' hold a candle to eastern stuff.  I remember plenty of conversations that went along the lines of...

    "I'm so tired of camping the group of Orcs just to level."

    "Try Lineage, it's 10 times worse.  This is easy."

    You make me like charity

  • slicknslim88slicknslim88 Norfolk, VAPosts: 394Member
    The east got their grindy games.  Let them do what theyw ant with them, to each their own.  Meanwhile we can enjoy awsome MMO's like GW2.
  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by slicknslim88
    The east got their grindy games.  Let them do what theyw ant with them, to each their own.  Meanwhile we can enjoy awsome MMO's like GW2.

    GW2 really isn't that awesome... I was one of those people that gave into the hype and even pre-ordered it, and then played it and got bored of it very fast. The two features it has that are different are dynamic events and no quest hubs. While that's all well and awesome, the innovation stops there and it feels like every high fantasy themepark MMO out there.

    Smile

  • erkinbabaerkinbaba MuglaPosts: 79Member

    Try to read history, Eastern history. Japanese, Chinese, Indian, and Mesopotamia.
    All at east. They have a deeper(!) and older history than the west, a huge culture lies there.  
    West is just an echo. Eastern people have more imagination, creativity, thats their life, thats their past.

    Grindy games they make ? Yeah sure, their all history is grinding.


    Huge weapons, big eyes, fast action, endless grinding, flying shits...
    They know what to do for themselves, innovation lies at their history folks !

    Do they care about west ? No shit, sure they want a piece from that cake but heh.
    Dont think they care... They dont have to.

    Too many games developed by eastern companies, still they do, gaining XP :)
    They'll beat "west" eventually in every way.
     

  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Alberel
    This issue ultimately comes down to financial backing and corporate greed, mostly as a result of Blizzard's success with WoW.

     

    Prior to the release of WoW MMO budgets were relatively small and they were considered a success with merely a few hundred thousand subscribers (or even less). UO, EQ1, DAOC, etc. were all relatively small MMOs by today's standards but they were all financial successes. These days any game with those sorts of subscription numbers is considered a financial failure. Why? Because the budget was too high and the return on investment needed was just ludicrously high. They seem to think WoW's success can be repeated, whilst the common belief amongst the community these days is that it was a fluke.

    Post-WoW the investors behind development studios have become incredibly greedy and are ALL aiming far too high. They pump far too much money into development and target the same audience as Blizzard which is a recipe for disappointment. For some reason they just don't understand the market at all; they don't seem to realise that offering someone the same thing they already have is not going to sway them to buy.

    In the east, however, we see a different trend. Over there either the developers are given more freedom or the investors are more acutely aware that success is closely tied to innovation and offering the consumer something different rather than more of the same. A lot of western players may not like the games (usually based on art style alone, which I feel is rather shallow) but it cannot be denied that their games have been much more experimental and innovative in the last few years compared to any western releases. Even GW2 (which was supposed to be quite innovative) turned out to only be skin deep; it was really just more of the same in a new skin.

    In the near future the west only really has TESO and EQ:N blinking on the radar and the former so far doesn't appear to have anything unique at all, whilst the latter has a lot of potential but is just words at this stage (and significantly words from a man who has been less than honest with the MMO community in the past). The east has AA, B&S, AoW just to name a few and each is doing things that are totally new to the genre.

    I'd very much agree with the OP; the east is pulling ahead. Perhaps not in terms of success (yet) but it seems eastern investors aren't as cowardly as their western counterparts and that already puts them leagues ahead...



    Investors do not care what kind of games get made. The care what kind of developer they are investing in. If a developer has a track record of making games, even small games, that people like and buy, then that developer is more likely to get money.

     

    That's not the case though; we've seen it time and time again. A developer has a promising game and then somewhere either just prior to launch or soon after the investors start making demands and the game changes. GW2 has JUST done this less than a few weeks ago. SWG did this. WAR did it.

    In almost every case the game suddenly shifts to appeal more to WoW's audience. In the process of doing this it kills the game's unqiue flavour and ends up appealing to almost no one.

    Investors DO care what kind of games get made; they've been making damned sure only games like WoW get made for the past 8 years.

  • PrenhoPrenho AracajuPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Razeekster
    Originally posted by slicknslim88
    The east got their grindy games.  Let them do what theyw ant with them, to each their own.  Meanwhile we can enjoy awsome MMO's like GW2.

    GW2 really isn't that awesome... I was one of those people that gave into the hype and even pre-ordered it, and then played it and got bored of it very fast. The two features it has that are different are dynamic events and no quest hubs. While that's all well and awesome, the innovation stops there and it feels like every high fantasy themepark MMO out there.

    Korean MMO culture is different, they like to stay on a game over years(Lineage 1(1998) is one of the most played MMOs there, and there is a huge and good community). They like games that last, to make bonds with each other. While western gamers just care about a solo campaign til level cap, lasting 3 days, after finishing the campaing, they go to multiplayer rooms to have fun for 1 month or so and then, leave the game and move to the next one. The same way of thinking as FPS games: solo campaing -> multiplayer rooms -> go to next game.

  • red_cruiserred_cruiser Milwaukee, WIPosts: 472Member Uncommon
    The graphics are prettier in Eastern games but they all feel like they come from out of the same assembly line. I don't see that much in the way of innovation though.  Don't get me wrong; some of the best game designers come out of the East, but as good as Arche Age may be; and I hope it's great; I really believe it's just going to be improving on concepts that were invented in the West.  If you broaden your horizons away from just the MMORPG market, and you look at the independent games scene, is it even any contest anymore? 
  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by red_cruiser
    The graphics are prettier in Eastern games but they all feel like they come from out of the same assembly line. I don't see that much in the way of innovation though.  Don't get me wrong; some of the best game designers come out of the East, but as good as Arche Age may be; and I hope it's great; I really believe it's just going to be improving on concepts that were invented in the West.  If you broaden your horizons away from just the MMORPG market, and you look at the independent games scene, is it even any contest anymore? 

    If you're talking about games besdes MMORPGs I'd say the West has alright games but the East defiantly has more gripping stories. Indie games have been coming up with great concepts though too recently.

    Smile

  • DrevarDrevar College Station, TXPosts: 156Member Uncommon

    The market in the East is much larger than in the West. There are probably more MMORPG players in Korea and Japan than in all of North America and Europe. Then throw in China and the potential pool of new players coming online blows away any potential here in the West.

    You can develop a game that would only grab 1% of the player pop in the "West" and would be a total flop, yet 1% of the Eastern market would be enough to keep the game running (unless it was run by NCsoft in which case it would be dropped, LOL).

    They also have us beat flat out in production costs. Look at AA for example. All those features for 25 million...and SWTOR cost how much to make?

    “If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it.”
    -Luke McKinney, The 7 Biggest Dick Moves in the History of Online Gaming

    "In the end, SWG may have been more potential and promise than fulfilled expectation. But I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
    -Raph Koster

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Alberel

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by Alberel This issue ultimately comes down to financial backing and corporate greed, mostly as a result of Blizzard's success with WoW.   Prior to the release of WoW MMO budgets were relatively small and they were considered a success with merely a few hundred thousand subscribers (or even less). UO, EQ1, DAOC, etc. were all relatively small MMOs by today's standards but they were all financial successes. These days any game with those sorts of subscription numbers is considered a financial failure. Why? Because the budget was too high and the return on investment needed was just ludicrously high. They seem to think WoW's success can be repeated, whilst the common belief amongst the community these days is that it was a fluke. Post-WoW the investors behind development studios have become incredibly greedy and are ALL aiming far too high. They pump far too much money into development and target the same audience as Blizzard which is a recipe for disappointment. For some reason they just don't understand the market at all; they don't seem to realise that offering someone the same thing they already have is not going to sway them to buy. In the east, however, we see a different trend. Over there either the developers are given more freedom or the investors are more acutely aware that success is closely tied to innovation and offering the consumer something different rather than more of the same. A lot of western players may not like the games (usually based on art style alone, which I feel is rather shallow) but it cannot be denied that their games have been much more experimental and innovative in the last few years compared to any western releases. Even GW2 (which was supposed to be quite innovative) turned out to only be skin deep; it was really just more of the same in a new skin. In the near future the west only really has TESO and EQ:N blinking on the radar and the former so far doesn't appear to have anything unique at all, whilst the latter has a lot of potential but is just words at this stage (and significantly words from a man who has been less than honest with the MMO community in the past). The east has AA, B&S, AoW just to name a few and each is doing things that are totally new to the genre. I'd very much agree with the OP; the east is pulling ahead. Perhaps not in terms of success (yet) but it seems eastern investors aren't as cowardly as their western counterparts and that already puts them leagues ahead...
    Investors do not care what kind of games get made. The care what kind of developer they are investing in. If a developer has a track record of making games, even small games, that people like and buy, then that developer is more likely to get money.  
    That's not the case though; we've seen it time and time again. A developer has a promising game and then somewhere either just prior to launch or soon after the investors start making demands and the game changes. GW2 has JUST done this less than a few weeks ago. SWG did this. WAR did it.

    In almost every case the game suddenly shifts to appeal more to WoW's audience. In the process of doing this it kills the game's unqiue flavour and ends up appealing to almost no one.

    Investors DO care what kind of games get made; they've been making damned sure only games like WoW get made for the past 8 years.



    Where are all these cases of games being redesigned by the publishers? Since nobody outside the developers has the design documents for the games, how would anyone outside the developer even know this?

    The developers for Rift, SWToR, Warhammer, Guild Wars 2, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, The Secret World, and Age of Conan did not start with a sandbox and end up with a theme park game. When the games ran over budget and got delayed, the publishers told them to get the games out the door. They released with a limited feature set, not a redesigned feature set.

    The only game that has been redesigned* is EQNext. In theory, it's going from a theme park style game to a more sandbox style game. This is going to delay the game considerably, which is why it's generally not done.

    * That I can think of. There could be games that are completely redesigned, but if so, the developer completely redesigned said game and wrote said game in a much shorter time than it took to write the original game.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

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