As a Runescaper, I don't see the 'quests' in most MMO's as real Quests to begin with.
But the Quest as the only means to level is truly becoming an epidemic. Even if you don't believe them as true Quests, they are indeed Quests that is being used in Everywhere now. Thats why I think its a problem.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Davis Vanilla wow had some good class quests, to get warrior stances, shamen totem, warlock pets etc..
For some bizarre reason they dropped them, always thought that was one if the better things in wow.
I think the totem quests were still in teh game last time i play.
They did not make more for obvious reasons ... it is more cost effective to make one quests for all players, instead of just some players that play a certain class. That is the same reason why they have 3 levels of difficulties in raids.
Quests in Pen and Paper RPG, and Single player games work because you can start and finish it whenever you want. Either with a group of friends when playing PnP, or by yourself.
But in MMO, Quests are shorten so that other players you meet during your quest can join in without being left out., or they become Instanced Quests that only people at that certain stage can join in.
How many times have you, yourself try to play with your guildmates but found out that they are two stages ahead of you in the quest, or you are ahead and have to wait for them.
So my question is, are Quests still viable in Modern Day MMO's
Are they the only way to get Progress within a story?
Guild wars 2 changed the quest system alittle, so that as long as you are in the vicinity, the quest automatically goes into your log, so anyone can jump in and participate.
But is that as far as we can take it?
Can Quests be eliminated all together?
What kind of alternatives is available?
I do not see how making quests more accessible is progress. The idea that anyone else can do the quest that I am on or that I can do the quest that anyone else is on is just another step towards negating any differences between players.
Quests that progress stories could be linear, such as being able to do one quest after the next. One quest is a prerequisite to do the next quest and this could continue for some time to complete one story. Most quests do not tell stories. They are just there for you to play fetch and be led along by the nose. Quests that tell stories could be totally soloable or require groups to complete. If the quests are soloable then who cares if you want to play with guildmates or not. It's a superfluous question if you don't NEED quildmates. If a quest is meant for groups then there will always be someone somewhere who also needs to do the quest to progress, since they will have to do it to progress the story too. Or the guild could hold an event for one night every week where they do a certain quest that people need. This promotes group conent way more than making quests for accessible for anyone to do.
Well, events in GW2 are a promising step forward, but even when they have no traditional quests at all in that game, I see the tasks ("heart symbols") as a step between quests and events. I don't see traditional quests enjoying much popularity in the future, atleast not in the traditional form. Heavy quest grinding gets exhausting fairly quickly. Alteast I had an unpleasant reaction to the Continent of the Ninth's excessive use of trivial miniquests for what felt like everything you did. Didn't like that at all...
Arenanet talked about having multiple end states in the events (more than pass/fail), with which you could build elaborate webs of events rather than just separate strings of events (which are essentially a form of quest-lines). However, the downside to this would be the same as with all branching content: it takes a lot of effort to produce those alternate paths.
Still, I wouldn't mind using quests for a more long term goal or objective - only a few active at any given time.
i disagree that events are a "promising step forward". they are nothing more than traditional quests in a different wrapper. i played gw2 today and an event i did was escorting a lady around while she collected fruit. i would rather collect the damn fruit myself. DE's in gw2 are just kill x, gather x, go to x, quests presented a different way.
quests are still viable imo. they've just become to trivial and meaningless. give me a quest that is an actual QUEST. make me travel a great distance. make the quest take days to complete. make me complete many smaller quests in order to complete the main quest.
I think questing is a useful mechanic in MMORPGs. However, I think there are design issues with quests being too quickly completed.
For example, to you, which would be the most tedius?
1. 5,000 quests to level cap.
2. 500 quests to level cap.
I'm of the opinion that reducing the number of quests but increasing their value would be a step in a positive direction.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Quests are necessary to move a story, and to give players some goals to strive for, so I say they're still a good concept. But as far as presentation goes, GW2's event system is the way to go, or much better, a (really polished) Radiant system like in TES. From the moment I played my first MMO it felt weird to encounter a quest giver who needs help saving his town from wolves but only ask me to kill 10 of them...and the town will actually never be saved. In SRPGs the devs can make the world move along with you so the town can be saved. In GW2 the town will be saved for a short time until the event triggers again; and in phasing MMOs (SWTOR, WoW), the town remains saved permanently at the cost of you getting disconnected from other players, an effect I find highly undesirable for a MMO.
I've not read all the replies so someone may have already said this. I think they are a good concept. They just aren't good as a primary means of leveling. In pen and paper the majority of you experience comes from the rp/combat/puzzle/trap encounters, but not from actually finishing the quest. I usually reward xp at the end of the session based on those things. I could care less if they succeed in the quest or not. The quests are there for immersion purposes. I would like to see similar in games. Obviously rewarding xp for RP is a bit far fetched in a MMO, but the rest are doable. Let the quest occasionally have a reward (decorative, componant, monetary, or something), but the normal reward not be xp or gear. I am ok with gear sometimes, but I prefer the gear to be a player crafted thing. Get rid of the quest hubs, and the short kill x whatevers and make actual quests. Make them long in depth chains that tell a story. Another player can hop in at anytime and contribute (just like in pen and paper). They may not get all the details, but they contribute to their part and help craft their characters story. I guess I am describing more of a world type deal, but thats what I envisioned from these games when I made the leap to them. One day I hope to see it fullfilled.
Lets say an NPC needs some ingredients gathered from the woods. Well, you go gather the ingredients, and turn them in. Well, the NPC no longer needs any more of that ingredient, so there's a global cooldown on that particular quest, but the NPC has a bunch of other ingredients that need gathered, so you, or some other people gather other ingredients and whatnot. If the NPC has no more tasks, no problem, there are more NPC in the area who do.
So essentially, it makes it a bit more intereting and a bit more challenging.
Questing is good. I like getting entangled in some awesome spanning plot that drives me to do things. Stepping outside of the box in quest design is good too. Perfect World had a really awesome quest type, for example. They were platforming quests that you'd find in a city. You had a certain amount of time to get to a chest and loot it. But the chest wasn't just sitting in some really easy to path to place, most times you had to do it over and over trying to even find a way to scale the terrain up to it. One had me jump from a box to a tent to a rooftop then leap over a few fallen pillars and catch a broken section of wall before I could leap up to the catwalk the chest sat on. It was fun, it took you away from the kill x mentality for awhile and let you really appreciate the world and how much thought went into the city itself.
EDIT : Entangled not Intangled. How in the sunny hell did that one slip by me and my spellcheck??
Quest are ok in games, but what we call quests in mmorg are side quest in sp games. When a sp game has 50 side quests for each smal part of the main story you tend to get tired of em. Its the same for mmorpg.
Another problem with questing in mmorpg is how unfriendly they are to do as coop/group, the system realy want you to do em alone and it works a little against the purpose of mmorpg. We all like to be able to solo em now and then, but alot of us also want to have company when we do em.
Not for me. I just get bored from them. The problem for me is that quests aren't built to be about the experience, but rather the goal which is kill 10 rats and earn a load of loot and xp. The experience for a rat infestation shouldn't be to kill 10 and gather stuff, it should be to solve the rat problem for a very very long time and move on to the next "quest" or leave the locals to deal with it on their own. A world that is big enough won't require me to solve every single problem every NPC faces.
I suppose in the end I want my game to impact the world and tell me a shared story with other players where the world changes. Quests as they are today sidestep that technical problem by providing the same infinite problems with infinite rewards and not a heck of a lot of substance in-between... because it's easy to do.
Perhaps I ask for the impossible.. ah well.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
My fav quest are still the story chapters in ffxi, for the most part quest in that game were not meant to be solo'ed for people of the correct level. you always had to search for help. or a group of people doing the same thing as you, these new age solo quest hub style were ok the first 1 or 2 games, but something needs to change quickly
But also give me entire zones (large areas) of group-only kind of old-school grind content. Let me form up with a party and grind mobs for a while in addition to everything else. Allow kills to drop tokens used to spawn mini bosses for your group with better loot, and then allow these mini bosses to drop tokens used to spawn bosses for my group.
And then give me huge, wide open large (massive) swaths of land with powerful creatures that roam it, tons of caves and temples and open world dungeons etc. to explore solo and/or with a group, and rare crafting materials to hunt for.
I think someone can come up with a system that makes GW2 DE's actually fun and feel less scripted. You fight, you kill, you improve, you help your faction and you level. But in a way that doesn't feel like a grind or like a cycle of DE's in each zone.
Originally posted by FrodoFragins I think someone can come up with a system that makes GW2 DE's actually fun and feel less scripted. You fight, you kill, you improve, you help your faction and you level. But in a way that doesn't feel like a grind or like a cycle of DE's in each zone.
The GW2 DE system is a unique mechanic and their flaws is showing right now.
Being 'the first' has its advantages but also its disadvantages.
No doubt we'll see an iteration of the DE system from other MMOs which will hopefully match what people want.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I'd just like to see them more pushed into the world and out of the quest hubs. So that you can find a quest anywhere simply by exploring the world, but not have them marked with the whole !/? and arrow nonsense. Pick up a book and read something in it that talks about a legendary sword, and then on another page is a map -- up to you to go find it. You can talk to people and find out what's going on in the area, and then explore it to see if it's really true. No "one true way" to succeed at the quest -- you figure out the best way to tackle rescuing the princess, but there is no set item you need to do it, just your wits, and a world full of items that can assist you -- ropes, grapples, torches, whatever. All of these items have effects and can be used, but they are not in any way "keys" to succeeding in the quest. The world and quest rewards are just there, and it's up to the player to figure out what to use, and how to succeed.
Comments
@OP
As a Runescaper, I don't see the 'quests' in most MMO's as real Quests to begin with.
But the Quest as the only means to level is truly becoming an epidemic. Even if you don't believe them as true Quests, they are indeed Quests that is being used in Everywhere now. Thats why I think its a problem.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I think the totem quests were still in teh game last time i play.
They did not make more for obvious reasons ... it is more cost effective to make one quests for all players, instead of just some players that play a certain class. That is the same reason why they have 3 levels of difficulties in raids.
I do not see how making quests more accessible is progress. The idea that anyone else can do the quest that I am on or that I can do the quest that anyone else is on is just another step towards negating any differences between players.
Quests that progress stories could be linear, such as being able to do one quest after the next. One quest is a prerequisite to do the next quest and this could continue for some time to complete one story. Most quests do not tell stories. They are just there for you to play fetch and be led along by the nose. Quests that tell stories could be totally soloable or require groups to complete. If the quests are soloable then who cares if you want to play with guildmates or not. It's a superfluous question if you don't NEED quildmates. If a quest is meant for groups then there will always be someone somewhere who also needs to do the quest to progress, since they will have to do it to progress the story too. Or the guild could hold an event for one night every week where they do a certain quest that people need. This promotes group conent way more than making quests for accessible for anyone to do.
Yes Sir
I think questing is a useful mechanic in MMORPGs. However, I think there are design issues with quests being too quickly completed.
For example, to you, which would be the most tedius?
1. 5,000 quests to level cap.
2. 500 quests to level cap.
I'm of the opinion that reducing the number of quests but increasing their value would be a step in a positive direction.
I think quests should be a bit more dynamic.
Lets say an NPC needs some ingredients gathered from the woods. Well, you go gather the ingredients, and turn them in. Well, the NPC no longer needs any more of that ingredient, so there's a global cooldown on that particular quest, but the NPC has a bunch of other ingredients that need gathered, so you, or some other people gather other ingredients and whatnot. If the NPC has no more tasks, no problem, there are more NPC in the area who do.
So essentially, it makes it a bit more intereting and a bit more challenging.
Questing is good. I like getting entangled in some awesome spanning plot that drives me to do things. Stepping outside of the box in quest design is good too. Perfect World had a really awesome quest type, for example. They were platforming quests that you'd find in a city. You had a certain amount of time to get to a chest and loot it. But the chest wasn't just sitting in some really easy to path to place, most times you had to do it over and over trying to even find a way to scale the terrain up to it. One had me jump from a box to a tent to a rooftop then leap over a few fallen pillars and catch a broken section of wall before I could leap up to the catwalk the chest sat on. It was fun, it took you away from the kill x mentality for awhile and let you really appreciate the world and how much thought went into the city itself.
EDIT : Entangled not Intangled. How in the sunny hell did that one slip by me and my spellcheck??
Quest are ok in games, but what we call quests in mmorg are side quest in sp games. When a sp game has 50 side quests for each smal part of the main story you tend to get tired of em. Its the same for mmorpg.
Another problem with questing in mmorpg is how unfriendly they are to do as coop/group, the system realy want you to do em alone and it works a little against the purpose of mmorpg. We all like to be able to solo em now and then, but alot of us also want to have company when we do em.
Not for me. I just get bored from them. The problem for me is that quests aren't built to be about the experience, but rather the goal which is kill 10 rats and earn a load of loot and xp. The experience for a rat infestation shouldn't be to kill 10 and gather stuff, it should be to solve the rat problem for a very very long time and move on to the next "quest" or leave the locals to deal with it on their own. A world that is big enough won't require me to solve every single problem every NPC faces.
I suppose in the end I want my game to impact the world and tell me a shared story with other players where the world changes. Quests as they are today sidestep that technical problem by providing the same infinite problems with infinite rewards and not a heck of a lot of substance in-between... because it's easy to do.
Perhaps I ask for the impossible.. ah well.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
I think they are still a good concept.
If you want a good story arc for the players to follow, setting up a quest chain to show you that is a good game mechanic.
Whether the player personally play video games for a story or not is a seperate issue.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Something like this?
http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=59715
The GW2 DE system is a unique mechanic and their flaws is showing right now.
Being 'the first' has its advantages but also its disadvantages.
No doubt we'll see an iteration of the DE system from other MMOs which will hopefully match what people want.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.