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Originally posted by bcbully Originally posted by Kuppa Originally posted by bcbully
Lets be honest, for real this time. WoW isn't an esport. It was at one point on the mayor esports tournament list because it's wow and because it's blizzard. But it got removed because it was like fitting a round peg in a square. It's a game that is not meant for esport.
GW2 is just a couple of months old and shows tons of promise as an esport. The problem around here is that the vast mayority only play a couple of pvp matches in random pick ups, at most get to rank 20 and then come here saying it's a mess. If they would actually get a group of people together and play paid tourneys they would see where the esport actually would take place.
We can debate what is and what isn't an esport. There will be points on both sides.
I curious why you feel GW2 shows promise, and WoW who has been, is fitting a round peg in a square hole.
I feel that mmorpg combat in general may fit the round peg, square whole.
I believe GW2 shows promise because like other prominent esport games its meta is limited which brings balance. Look at LoL for example, you only get 4 skills and 2 summoner spells. Look at SC2, it only has 3 races when most other RTS games have tons. What this helps with is helping keep a balance which is what all esports are about. WoW wasn't created with esports in mind.
It also boast solid core mechanics, which is super important for esports. What do I mean by that? Jumping feels right, moving feels right, the game doesn't feel clunky, the skills all have a role, specifically in pvp.
One thing they might still need to work on is "watchability". They need to make sure it's fun to watch, for that they need to bring in a spectator mode which they said they will. They also need streamers to hop on board.
BTW, I suggest you watch this: http://www.funsponge.net/2012/12/arenanet-on-pvp/
Their head is in the right place.
Originally posted by Xiaoki Originally posted by Greyhooff I like my sig. I've had it for a long time. Fanboys of any game really bother me (all fanboys are also "haters", since they hate other games, it's all very tribal)
Here's the thing - I loved WoW back in 2004-2008. It was a genuinely fantastic game in that era, bear in mind we were all playing EQ back then, and that was very very primitive with awful gameplay.
I wasn't a WoW fanboy - I merely acknowledged how good the game was, how much potential it had and how it made EQ look like antiquated trash.
At launch, WoW was riddled with bugs, exploit, duping, lootstuck bug, unplayable areas, ridiculous class balance, server outages etc that lasted the whole of its first year... but those of us who weren't fanboying EQ looked past that and realised we had something very special in WoW. We knew it would do fantastically well, despite what the EQ purists believed.
Such is progress.
The same progress is evident with GW2. Just like back in those EQ v WoW days, you had the EQ fanboys who were stuck in the past and defended "their game" with gusto and refused to move on. A year or two later, they had moved on, it just took them a while.
You're mistaking fanboyism for acknowledgement of when a game makes genuine moves forward that makes older games look, well, older.
In GW2, we have the first MMO capable of being an e-sport, with a solid meta, balanced classes and great gameplay and depth.
In MMO world, 3-4 million players (the total NA+EU population of WoW) is huge. But for games like LoL, we're talking 100 million summoners worldwide. That a MMO could reach that level of ubiquity and mainstream-ness is very exciting.
This is all about opinions, and mine is that GW2 is pretty much dead already, and in 2014 nobody will even remember this game exists.
Some of the people posting here will be excited about something else, and the cycle will continue.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Originally posted by Greyhooff Originally posted by Xiaoki Originally posted by Greyhooff I like my sig. I've had it for a long time. Fanboys of any game really bother me (all fanboys are also "haters", since they hate other games, it's all very tribal)
You can't possibly think GW2 is to WoW what WoW was to EQ2. WoW was a revolution in gaming, nothing too innovative, but a revolution nonetheless. GW2 so far proved nothing, it's a shinny new thing, but that would be pretty much it.
Originally posted by Greyhooff Originally posted by bcbully
Hey you're the guy saying WoW is an e-sport. It is not.
How about checking your facts with MLG, ESL or any e-sports community.
However, for GW2, here's the words of ESL, taken a few days ago, 29 November 2012:
ESL.eu's Admin Staff Member Peli recently posted on reddit that they are indeed thinking about picking up Guild Wars 2 to be a part of their e-sport leagues. This would mean a huge deal for Guild Wars 2 e-Sport scene and could possibly be the beginning of something great! They want the community to give them feedback on this idea so be sure to drop by and let them know just how much we want this!
"I'm Peli from ESL.eu Admin Staff.
We are thinking about opening a Guild Wars 2 section on ESL.eu. To make it happen, we need few things.
Have you even read the feedback from the article you posted? These are GW2 players saying No, the game is not ready for e-sports. Its great that its on the horizon for ESL and Anet, but the game itself isn't ready for e-sports. Players, players interested in spvp, are saying its not ready. How much more of a sign do you need?
I'VE been playing GW2 since release, doing ONLY SPVP, whether it be hotjoin or tournaments, or simply dueling people in a spvp map (NO DUELING IN THE GAME STILL LOOOOOOL). I know the game isn't ready for E-sports and I doubt it will even have the community support to be successful if it was featured in tournaments.
Lets be honest: mmorpgs are not ideal for e-sports. They are simply not viewer friendly. Meanwhile, you can watch a game of SC2 or Dota and get a good sense of what is going on, even if you haven't played before.
For WoW, GW2, and any other potential mmorpg E-sport, only people who have played the game a lot will know what is going on. Besdies, GW2's pvp is a clusterfuck. Watch how difficult it is to spectate WoW's arena 3v3 and then change that to 5v5 with no healers, everybody spamming damage attacks, and a shit ton of conditions flying around...thats GW2.
I like HappyJacks rants on class balance, he plays an elementalist, poor guy.
Originally posted by Faelsun I like HappyJacks rants on class balance, he plays an elementalist, poor guy.
This is what I find so fun about GW2.
Elementalist is arguably the strongest class in the game right now. Yet HappyJacks (and you, presumably) think they're weak.
It's the perfect illustration as to why GW2's PVP is a game of skill and how the skill gap is huge even between above average and top end players.
You want to see some amazing PVP, watch this:
An elementalist who wins a 1v...5-8? Something like that. Pure skill. You can sort of tell the guy playing was kind of "in the zone" during this fight. His opponents aren't glass cannons who die in 2 seconds either, they're not playing badly.
Originally posted by Greyhooff Originally posted by Faelsun I like HappyJacks rants on class balance, he plays an elementalist, poor guy.
No happyjacks main gripe is the ease in which thieves get the same dps out of one button compared to the link you showed of an elementalist having to work for it. There will always be a gap between average, good and great players no matter how one deminsional the pvp is. I didn't find it all that amazing thats a pretty powerful pre nerf build as well, but hell I could hold off 3 people with my heavy dps trap ranger and I wasn't even a bunker build and I have seen plenty of other people outclass a few at once, especially a few Mesmers I have seen. It doesn't make the pvp good, looks like more of the same spammy dps garbage I got tired of doing. You can get into a zone especially if you are better than they are and the match ups are good, hell I have pulled top scores with a ranger against whole teams of Mesmer/thieves because I was set up for that, but I never though it was all that hard, GW2 is just a dps combo numbers game.
Originally posted by fixif Originally posted by Greyhooff Originally posted by Xiaoki Originally posted by Greyhooff I like my sig. I've had it for a long time. Fanboys of any game really bother me (all fanboys are also "haters", since they hate other games, it's all very tribal)
We basically have the same scenario going on here. WoW released to critical acclaim. Reviewers saw it as a great step forward for MMOs, but some gamers denied it for what it was. Of course, when the clones start coming they could no longer deny what WoW has brought to the genre. Now we have this description of WoW that is a collection of already existing features, but improved and polished to levels above its competition.
GW2 so far has not really proven anything because it hasn't been cloned yet. It's still too new, but right now what it has is the backing of the many critics who see GW2 a step forward for MMOs.
I'm kidding, he's playing a thief.
Uh..did you actually see when happyjacks posted that video? Sept. 17th. Back then, thieves were insanely OP (in part because of a stealth bug) and elementalist were weak. Since then, thieves have received a steady amount of nerfs and elementalist a steady amount of buffs. NOW, elementalist are one of the strongest classes in game, especially since their downed state was reworked.
If you say so. I'd say their subpar one bar, weapon based skill system says otherwise.
If WOW hasn't managed to crack that goal, I don't see GW2 doing so. I believe official WOW tournies have fixed gear and so it ends up being class/skill based.
MMO PVP will always be the ugly stepchild of RTS, FPS and MOBA matches.
People have to be interested in it to be a "big e-sport" Primetime there are like 20 servers going. That's the americas, europe, Korea. Just about everywhere except China.
That's a whopping 300 people playing primetime worldwide....
Originally posted by Greyhooff Originally posted by jpnz Originally posted by Greyhooff
Starcraft 2, yes - totally. It's a great e-sport and a fantastic meta. Blizzard puts lots of money into SC2 and it shows.
But the main thing is that SC2 actually has a good meta, and a solid PVP game for competitive play.
WoW is unbalanced garbage and will never be an e-sport. They tried in TBC but now even Blizzard doesn't try to get it on ESL, MLG etc.
WoW arena really is a joke, it's just the same players year after year doing the only thing they know how, and no one in e-sports cares.
WoW's raid stream had respectable numbers actually.
It wasn't LoL / SC2 numbers but it wasn't that bad.
Think WoW Arena with DOTA mixed-in would do fairly well actually.
WoW cannot be an esport. The metagame is just wrong, unbalanced and boring for competitive PVP.
GW2 on the other hand is actually much closer to LoL and has a good shot in the next few months to get there, especially as it has actual e-sports backing rather than the wishful thinking of PVE players.
LoL took a year to get to esports viability, and GW2 is well on the way already, especially when you consider the discussion posted above, it's the sort of talks Riot Games had when tweaking the meta for LoL in the early months.
Bear in mind that 3 months in, not many expected League to be e-sports viable, but Riot kept working on the meta and on PVP balance and now League is the #1 e-sport in the world, ahead even of SC2.
"Teams will compete in a round robin tournament for a share of the $30,000 prize money. "
Idk sounds pretty sporting. No need to talk about the sponsorships.
Originally posted by FrodoFragins If you say so. I'd say their subpar one bar, weapon based skill system says otherwise. If WOW hasn't managed to crack that goal, I don't see GW2 doing so. I believe official WOW tournies have fixed gear and so it ends up being class/skill based. MMO PVP will always be the ugly stepchild of RTS, FPS and MOBA matches.
Complete nonsense. WOW requires no skills at all. As i've stated before , for me to perform at my highest level in GW2 tournies I need almost the same APM as in SC2. There's so much going on and so many aspects to keep in mind. Just learning skill animations for different classes etc takes a really long time. Lot of ppl that are complaining about GW2 being to simple isn't using everything at their disposal, it's usually them that are claming that you only need to mash 1 button. I use EVERY skill I have available.
Name one MMO where you can 1v2, 1v3 without hardly taking any damage? I'd be really interested to see how you would perform against really skilled GW2 players. I haven't felt this skill gap since Age of conan and before haters comment on that game I know it was garbage but the combat system was really good.
I don't really have much faith in an MMO becoming an E-sport unless it funds itself much like Blizzard does or ArenaNet will (has) with Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2. The pvp in these games is just not taken seriously enough. I have no doubt that GW2 will have a bigger competitive scene over time, especially considering WoW barely had one until Arenas came out. (BGs were more of small server rivals then anything E-Sport like) Basically unless you seperate the PvP and PvE game completely in terms of class balance, an MMO can never be balanced enough to be taken seriously as an E-Sport. Right now WoW isn't taken seriously due to balance problems they have had for years in Arenas and GW2 won't be taken seriously until they fix the balance problems it has. The thing is though, that GW2 is willing to change the way abilities function in JUST sPvP whereas WoW rarely does this at all.
A good game with good PvP .
I really think that WoW's ToR's and Rift's players can't speak about true PvP. So, what do you do in the thread ?
Originally posted by Greyhooff If this open, unscripted discussion with the developers is anything to go by: GW2 is set for huge e-sport success. They are very clear that they are not rushing it, but the announced balance changes, the pacing of changes, the way they are approaching their PVP game is fantastic. I also LOVED the fact that this guy says clearly that some noobs just need to L2P. That kind of frankness only comes from someone who plays the game extensively himself, a developer who is also a competitive player = awesome. No bullcrap, no marketing spin, just a skilled PVP developer with opinions and ideas who is open about discussing with the players. You can tell this guy really cares about balance and competitive gaming above all, and that's exactly what you want. Let's face it, PVP in other MMOs like SWTOR, WoW, Aion, AOC, etc is a joke. No one takes it seriously, and no MMO has e-sport PVP. It's too unbalanced. GW2 has a very good chance at it because it's already the most balanced MMO, and about to become even more balanced in every little detail. I think that with the mindset displayed in the video, they might have the biggest esport game of 2013. Anyway, just watch it in full and make up your own mind.
No thanks. There are a ton of already great eSports games with a massive following, I don't need some half-assed MMO(?) to do that for me. These guys talk so much and their game still blew hard, biggest eSports for 2013 are already rising in other circuits.
Currently playing - FF14ARRPrevious games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.