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Am I the only one who hates quest grinding? (rant inside)

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  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member
    Originally posted by Gardavil


    Quest Grinding without a good Storyline is boring. Quest grinding for Players that don't care about the Storyline is really boring.
    Freedom in MMOs largely depends on whether the MMO in question was designed as a "Them Park" like WoW and LotRO, of if it was designed as a "Sandbox" like old SWG when it was new or EvE Online is now.
    A great MMO imho is one that has a great Storyline and a huge Quest Line built into the game that takes full advantage of the Story ....AND....a Sandbox style features that allow a Player that wishes to skip the quests to have a whole assortment of options of ingame goodies to enjoy. I have other features that I look for in a MMO as well, but a MMO with a great story based quest series but without freedom to do "my own thing" is a boring road to walk in a MMO for me.
    As for group grinding out XP, I miss the old days in DAoC grouped with my guildies out on the Salisbury Plains...having a great time while camping a favorite spot. I myself believe that the reason you don't see more of this type of social behavior in MMOs now is because the MMO Developers have spread the Mobs out too uniformly instead of the old fasioned "Mob group spawns" like the old MMOs had....if a group now-a-days could camp more and not have to travel around so much ingame, then I think we would see this Player behavior return. I am a LotRO lifer, but I hate that LotRO Player Groups trying to do a quest together have to "run to and fro" in Middle Earth at each step of the quest line sometimes. It is distracting from the real reason some of us want to play a MMO...to socialize while we grind out XP.
    Bring back the "Mob Group Spawns" with rapid respawning! Give the Players a reason to have to group together...and stay in one spot for awhile so we can chat and goof around together while grinding out XP.



     

    I'm not sure if you've tried it, but Vanguard actually did a good job doing all the things you said should be done in a MMORPG. I recognized that, but I quit anyways for other reasons. It just didn't have the population, dev support, or a good company behind it.

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member
    Originally posted by Neanderthal

    Originally posted by Abrahmm

    Originally posted by TdogSkal

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Wharg0ul


    Dead fucking on. OP nailed the GLARING flaw in the modern day MMORPG, and one of the many reasons that old school MMORPG players are left feeling out of place, unsatisfied, and frankly pissed off.
    This is why we yearn for the old days....and hope beyond hope that some game developer will finally "get it" and make the game we all so desperately crave.

     

    LOL .. old days are WORSE. What is in EQ ... mob grinding .. i prefer quest grinding to that any day any time.

     

    So your one of those people that want everything now without effort? 

    You have clearly never seen him post before have you?

    Anyway, I'm totally with you OP. I HATE quest grinding. It's more boring than just grinding mobs, but you can't even socialize while you do it.

    Give me good old fashion group grinding over the mindless quest grinding ANY day. Any day.



     

    Yep, that's right.

    Hey, I can remember bitching about mob grinding myself.  I seem to recall comparing it to a slaughter house.  But at least it could be social if you chose.  And at least you had the freedom to just head off...oh, that-a-way...if you felt like it without feeling like you were going to fall behind on your tasks.

    Ok, here's a little story from my early days in EQ that might shed some light on the difference as I see it. 

    Once upon a time I headed out into West Karana with a Barbarian Shaman.  I did this for no particular reason other than to see what there was to see out there.  So I was looking around, killing a few things as I went and then I saw a necro nearby.  That was the first time I had seen a necromancer so I stopped to watch him for a bit.  Then, out of curiousity I tried to cast a buff on his pet (I wasn't sure if I could).

    Well that worked, so just for the heck of it I buffed his pet with everything I had.  He thanked me and we got to talking and then one of us suggested that we could group for a while.  So we did. 

    Pretty soon we ran across another guy and brought him into the group.  So now there were three of us and we were doing pretty good.  We each could have been soloing (especially the necro) but working together the experience was rolling in much faster.  So for a week or two our little group in West Karana became a regular thing.  We kept meeting out there to group and had a great time together.

    And you know we had some real adventures in our time together because there was some high level stuff out there that we didn't know about untill we were running for our lives from it.  We hunted together, explored together, and yes we even died together a time or two.  When you get right down to it we were mostly just grinding mobs but at least we were doing it with other people which is much more fun.

    Now, if EQ had been a quest grinding game you know what would have happened when that necro and my paths crossed that day?  We would have run right past each other without even pausing because we each would have been hurrying along to complete some stupid "quest".

    Look, I know that the old style mob grinding wasn't perfect but at least you could decide where you wanted to go, you didn't feel so rushed, and it made grouping much more likely and practical.  Maybe we don't need to go back to that just exactly as it was but this quest grinding crap is just F-ing horrible.



     

    I can give similar stories from DAoC. That's the thing about mob grinding; you have the flexibility to just let the wind take you where it wants. In DAoC, and probably EQ from how you make it sound, you discovered or stumbled upon dungeons. You weren't directed to them. People in dungeons did them for the sheer pleasure of doing them, and tried to get to the deepest depths of the dungeon to see what was there. The majority of the time you didn't get there, but it was a lot of fun trying.

    I agree that the mob grinding was actually pretty damned boring, but truth be told I didn't mind it so much when I was in a good group, which was more often than not. It was easy to form groups in DAoC before Catacombs and we would explore all parts of the world. It really sucks nowadays running pass each other, too worried about turning in a quest to even recognized who you just passed.

    I'm playing WAR right now, and it's actually pretty fun. I don't quest at all, nor feel the need to. I do PQ's, Scenarios, and ORvR for my xp, and every single one of those activities is group centric. Now only if the community actually did the dungeons that were available more, and were more active in the PQ's...

  • EronakisEronakis Louisville, KYPosts: 2,188Member Common

    I know this has nothing to do with anything for mmo's in this post I am about to put here but I got a chuckle out of it. My friend was here while I was looking at the forums and he asked to read your rant. The 1st thing he said was this.. "This OP must really hate his life because he grinded out his human form, from evolution..according to his name here.."

  • JB47394JB47394 Sterling, VAPosts: 409Member


    Originally posted by firesnake77

    Originally posted by JB47394
    Although EverQuest suffered from stratification, the glacial pace of advancement brought a certain stability. You knew that you'd be level 38 for the next couple weeks, and you'd be killing the same monsters - perhaps even the exact same room - for most of that time.

    THIS sounds utterly horrible.  I can't imagine anyone paying for such an experience.
     
    To the OP, I thought your post was good, and you had some very valid points.  But I still think even crappy questing beats the scenario described above by JB47394.  Beats it by FAR.

    The issue is not which is better but to understand that slowly advancing through a series of layers that socially stratifies a player community permits more socialization than rapidly advancing through it. It is simply a design point to be appreciated.

    Notice how there is stability in the raiding community in World of Warcraft. That's because the players are all grinding the same content day after day without gaining levels. That's pretty much what the EverQuest experience was like. In EverQuest, the grinding was for experience and gear. In World of Warcraft, the grinding is for gear (and other stuff, I suppose).

  • DerrialDerrial Hillsborough, NJPosts: 250Member


    Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by CayneJobb

    The problem for me is uninteresting quests.  When I play a single-player RPG, the quests are usually interesting and very story-driven.  I feel like each quest advances the game's story or is at least somewhat compelling.  In MMORPGs, they go for quantity over quality, loading up the games up with hundreds of dull, repetitive, quests that feel like they're created from a template.  MMO quests are generally too short (kill 10 bears is not a quest, it's a menial task), too similar to each other, too numerous, too generic.
    Another problem too is that quests are all text in MMOs.  If they voice-record all quests in an MMO (maybe a gargantuan undertaking, but that's mostly because there are too many quests) it would help bring the quests alive.  When I jump onto an MMO at 2am, I really don't want to read blocks of quest text.  Too often I find myself just reading the part that tells me what I have to do and then go off and do it.


     
    I imagine you didn't play older MMOs, or else you wouldn't complain about uninteresting quests, because just getting something even semi-interesting was step up from nothing=)

    You're right, I didn't play many older MMOs. I've played Lineage II which has extremely lame quests, and I definitely noticed the improvement in games like WoW and LOTRO, but I'm still complaining.



    You have a very valid point, but you just can't expect every quest to be great. Think about how much time you spend on single player RPGs. 60 hrs average maybe less and think of all the filler in them? You beat it in 2 weeks. How much time do you spend in a MMO? Months? Years? It takes years just to create a quality 60 hr single player game. If after 3 yrs in development, a MMO only kept you busy for a couple of weeks, you've got some problems. Its just not feasable. Something has to give. Thats where all the filler quests come in. They fill in the time between the good ones.

    Well, typically MMOs keep you busy for years with endgame stuff like raiding and PvP, not so much questing unless you count tripe like rep-grind daily quests. The questing/leveling aspect of a game like WoW, for example, is infamously fast. In its current state, I'd say WoW 1-80 takes probably like 20-30 hours tops, and that's if you stop to smell the roses. Then the "real game begins," as they say.

    But I understand your point, and I still don't think bland filler quests are necessary. Let me put it this way: I would rather do one quest with a good story, voiced dialogue, and a good reward that requires me to travel all over the world killing 1000 mobs than to do 100 dull, repetitive, melt-my-eyes-from-reading-blocks-of-text quests that require me to kill 10 mobs each and reward me with junk items. It would probably be much less work for developers to make the one big quest and much more enjoyable to me.



    Some MMOs do have lots of VO, but like you said, you can't record voice for every quest.

    Except if you make big quests like what I describe above, your game only needs about 20-30 quests total and then each one can be voice-acted, animated, include cutscenes, whatever you want.



    Also, MMOs aren't single player games. You can't be the hero that saves the world, because there are 15k other players on the server that want to do the same thing. That kind of limits the possibilities if you want a persistent world.

    That's ok. I'm not one of those who needs to be known by everyone in the game. I just want to feel like I'm involved in an epic story instead of doing repetitive menial labor for ornery NPCs in an effort to get to the level cap as fast as I can.



    As far as reading blocks of text, I assume you didn't play RPGs in the 90s. There was very little to no voice at all besides cut scenes maybe=)

    I did play a few RPGs in the 90s. Adventure games too like Maniac Mansion with floating text over the heads of the blocky characters. Or better yet, Infocom text adventures like Zork and Planetfall - those were ALL text. But hey, it ain't the 90s anymore. We should be well past the text adventures, n'est pas?

  • firesnake77firesnake77 Littleton, COPosts: 37Member
    Originally posted by JB47394
    The issue is not which is better but to understand that slowly advancing through a series of layers that socially stratifies a player community permits more socialization than rapidly advancing through it. It is simply a design point to be appreciated.

     

    Ah, okay.  I can see and concede this point.  I, myself, have often remarked that the leveling speed is too great in WoW and its clones.  I'd love to see it take six months or more for an average, reasonably active player to hit level cap.

    Actually, I'd rather these games not have a "level cap" or anything called "endgame" at all, but that's a much bigger can of worms.

    So how many of the people who have complained about the WoW-like MMORPGS in this thread would feel that your issues were largely addressed if level advancement in WoW (or its clones) simply took ten times as long as it does now?

     

    Also, you all keep using this term, "quest grinding".  I don't see it that way, and never, before reading this thread, had it ever even occurred to me to look at questing as a "grind".  I've levelled up a lot of characters in several of the WoW-like MMORPGS, and I always just played the game and enjoyed the content.  It never felt like a grind to me.  The gameplay is varied and ever-changing when you quest.  You go different places, see different things, achieve different goals, and complete objectives in different ways.  Along the way, you HAPPEN to gain XP and loot, and level up.  And sometimes (not always), there's even a cool story behind it.

    Grinding, on the other hand, is just killing the exact same mobs, in the exact same place, in the exact same way, over and over and over and over, COUNTLESS times, just to move an XP bar up in tiny increments until you finally ding.  That's a grind, for sure.  I've done it, but it sure isn't fun.  To me.  Obviously others have different tastes in fun.

     

    I get that many people don't like questing as it exists in WoW and its clones.  I can see your points, and I can totally understand how it might feel really dissatisfying to many gamers.  I don't share that feeling, obviously, but I do GET it.  It's a totally valid preference.

    However, many of the arguments, or more specifically the CLAIMS, being made in this thread by people about WoW and WoW-clones are just plain untrue.  False dichotomies are being set up all over the place, and massive, sweeping generalities are being thrown around based on . . . well, based on very little, that I can see.  Rumors maybe?  Tiny bits of personally skewed experience?  Sheer speculation?  Unsubstantiated negative thinking elevated to the level of fact?

     

    You can level just fine in any of these games without questing.  You can get good gear in any of these games without questing.  You can find groups in any of these games to quest, to grind, to run instances, or to do whatever else you want to do.  All of the arguments that WoW and WoW-like MMORPGs "force" you to solo or "force" you to quest are just pure bunk.  Nonsense.  Lies, frankly.  The people making these claims either have very little experience with the games in question, or have allowed their preconceptions and prejudices to actually color (or shape) their experiences with these games, or they're just really lousy at finding ways to make the games work for them (uncreative, impatient, closed-minded, all of the above?), or maybe they're just bad at dealing with people in a setting that doesn't FORCE people to seek out contact with them.  Who knows?  But the limited experiences that are being claimed here are NOT universal, nor necessary.

    In other words, as Josher said earlier in the thread, if you're having these problems with these games . . . it's not the game, it's YOU.

    And hey, if you want to revise your complaints to say, "In these games, I cannot have the kind of play experience I like without making extra effort, adapting my methodology, learning anything new, or having to actually interact with people in slightly more demanding ways, and therefore, in order to take the path of least resistance and stay as close as possible to my prior comfort zone, I am FORCED to do x, or simply not play at all because the gameplay style I want is not automatically enforced upon the playerbase and thus handed to me by default," then sure, I'm totally behind you, and have no problem with your reasoning.  In that case, you have my sympathies.

    Originally posted by Wighty

    It's like the latest batch of MMO's are like a f'n Kevin Costner movie... <think Waterworld, the Postman, etc> they cost a FORTUNE, they sound like they may be good but then you just realized you sat around for 3 hours of WTF...

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member
    Originally posted by firesnake77

    Originally posted by JB47394
    The issue is not which is better but to understand that slowly advancing through a series of layers that socially stratifies a player community permits more socialization than rapidly advancing through it. It is simply a design point to be appreciated.

     

    Ah, okay.  I can see and concede this point.  I, myself, have often remarked that the leveling speed is too great in WoW and its clones.  I'd love to see it take six months or more for an average, reasonably active player to hit level cap.

    Actually, I'd rather these games not have a "level cap" or anything called "endgame" at all, but that's a much bigger can of worms.

    So how many of the people who have complained about the WoW-like MMORPGS in this thread would feel that your issues were largely addressed if level advancement in WoW (or its clones) simply took ten times as long as it does now?

     

    Also, you all keep using this term, "quest grinding".  I don't see it that way, and never, before reading this thread, had it ever even occurred to me to look at questing as a "grind".  I've levelled up a lot of characters in several of the WoW-like MMORPGS, and I always just played the game and enjoyed the content.  It never felt like a grind to me.  The gameplay is varied and ever-changing when you quest.  You go different places, see different things, achieve different goals, and complete objectives in different ways.  Along the way, you HAPPEN to gain XP and loot, and level up.  And sometimes (not always), there's even a cool story behind it.

    Grinding, on the other hand, is just killing the exact same mobs, in the exact same place, in the exact same way, over and over and over and over, COUNTLESS times, just to move an XP bar up in tiny increments until you finally ding.  That's a grind, for sure.  I've done it, but it sure isn't fun.  To me.  Obviously others have different tastes in fun.

     

    I get that many people don't like questing as it exists in WoW and its clones.  I can see your points, and I can totally understand how it might feel really dissatisfying to many gamers.  I don't share that feeling, obviously, but I do GET it.  It's a totally valid preference.

    However, many of the arguments, or more specifically the CLAIMS, being made in this thread by people about WoW and WoW-clones are just plain untrue.  False dichotomies are being set up all over the place, and massive, sweeping generalities are being thrown around based on . . . well, based on very little, that I can see.  Rumors maybe?  Tiny bits of personally skewed experience?  Sheer speculation?  Unsubstantiated negative thinking elevated to the level of fact?

     

    You can level just fine in any of these games without questing.  You can get good gear in any of these games without questing.  You can find groups in any of these games to quest, to grind, to run instances, or to do whatever else you want to do.  All of the arguments that WoW and WoW-like MMORPGs "force" you to solo or "force" you to quest are just pure bunk.  Nonsense.  Lies, frankly.  The people making these claims either have very little experience with the games in question, or have allowed their preconceptions and prejudices to actually color (or shape) their experiences with these games, or they're just really lousy at finding ways to make the games work for them (uncreative, impatient, closed-minded, all of the above?), or maybe they're just bad at dealing with people in a setting that doesn't FORCE people to seek out contact with them.  Who knows?  But the limited experiences that are being claimed here are NOT universal, nor necessary.

    In other words, as Josher said earlier in the thread, if you're having these problems with these games . . . it's not the game, it's YOU.

    And hey, if you want to revise your complaints to say, "In these games, I cannot have the kind of play experience I like without making extra effort, adapting my methodology, learning anything new, or having to actually interact with people in slightly more demanding ways, and therefore, in order to take the path of least resistance and stay as close as possible to my prior comfort zone, I am FORCED to do x, or simply not play at all because the gameplay style I want is not automatically enforced upon the playerbase and thus handed to me by default," then sure, I'm totally behind you, and have no problem with your reasoning.  In that case, you have my sympathies.



     

    People here have said they did not prefer quest grinding because they liked mob grinding in older MMO's, since people preferred to do it together. I cannot hold you to this challenge or even validate if you actually carried out the challenge, but I challenge you to go into WoW and get a quest grind group going 90% of the time, as you can a mob grind group in a quest grind-less game. I've tried, these other posters have tried, and quite frankly the reason why is because quests ARE the path of least resistance and the majority of the player base would rather quest alone. Also, most have made it completely clear why we see quests in MMO's as a grind. It's because you're required to do thousands of menial chores and tasks that the devs called quests, to get to max level efficiently, with enough gold to buy things intended for that level, and to get the gear upgrades. No one here said they don't like quests completely. We all love quests, but not in the current MMORPG form. We'd rather have several really large quests that spanned many levels and had a plot to each of them.

  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Posts: 1,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by firesnake77

    Originally posted by JB47394
    Although EverQuest suffered from stratification, the glacial pace of advancement brought a certain stability. You knew that you'd be level 38 for the next couple weeks, and you'd be killing the same monsters - perhaps even the exact same room - for most of that time.

    THIS sounds utterly horrible.  I can't imagine anyone paying for such an experience.

     

    To the OP, I thought your post was good, and you had some very valid points.  But I still think even crappy questing beats the scenario described above by JB47394.  Beats it by FAR.

     

    I agree just about completely with Josher's posts here.  The choice in WoW and the games like it IS a real choice.  The limitations being described to the contrary are largely fabrications of individual players' minds.

     

    And the idea that a few people have posted that amounts to, "I want certain rewards but I don't want to have to do anything specific to earn them" is, well, just plain silly.



     

    The advancement in EQ was incredibly slow compared to later games but personally I think that was a good thing.  What's the point in rushing through a game anyway?  And it's not like you were limited to one room in one dungeon for several weeks.  Some people did play that way, they found a spot they liked and kept going back to it untill they out-leveled it.  Some people alternated between a number of places in the same general area and some people traveled around the world exploring all the content for their level range.  I know that I never spent three weeks grinding in the same room every time I played.  Probably the only people who did that were the ones who were obsessed with pushing through the levels as fast as possible.  But also you have to keep in mind that there were no instances in EQ (not in the early days at least) so I rather doubt that anyone would have been able to get one specific room every time they played.  If a full group was already there you would have had to find a dfferent spot.

    There is something about EQ in it's glory days that seems to get lost in translation here.  What gets lost is that the whole dang game was a social environment.  When you only look at the most basic element of gameplay which was mob grinding you are leaving out the environment in which the mob grinding took place.

    In the heyday of EQ when you went into a dungeon like Blackburrow or Crushbone or unrest or a popular outdoor zone like The Oasis of Ro there would be 50, 60 people or more in the zone.  My memory is getting a little fuzzy but I think it wasn't uncommon to have over 100 people in a large popular zone.  

    Some of those people would be soloing but most were in groups.  Those were the days of the..uh...what I would call casual open pick-up groups.  People joined groups, stayed a while, then left or logged out.  So there were always groups looking to invite more people to fill out the group.  

    Ok, so your typical play session in EQ (back in the day) went like this:  You logged in, decided where you wanted to go, went there, the zone chat would be filled with "Group looking for one more" or "Group looking for <specific class>", you sent a tell to one of those groups, got an invite, and went to join the group.  If you couldn't get a group immediately you would solo for a while untill you could.

    So now you settle down to grind mobs.  There are 10 to 15 groups in the zone and some people soloing.  This was a highly communal experience.  Your group wasn't isolated, you were just one group among many.  Like all human social interactions there was good and bad to it but it brought the game alive and made it much more interesting.  Maybe the group over there got in trouble and your group helped them out and they thanked you.  Maybe it turned out they weren't in trouble after all and they cursed you for stealing their mobs.  Maybe they got in trouble so badly that you were afraid to help them out and so you stood back and watched as they died and/or ran for their lives.  If they died maybe the cleric in your group resurected them.  Maybe one of the soloers got in trouble and ran to your group for help.  Unless he had been acting like a jerk you probably helped him.  If he had been acting like a jerk you probably watched him die.

    The zones, especially the more popular zones, were teeming with activity.  The chat was filled with groups looking for people or people looking for groups, people asking questions about one thing or another, people shouting warnings to everyone in the zone about a train or a high level mob on the move.  Groups fighting steadily, people running for their their lives, people helping each other, groups getting overwhelmed and dying, people coming and going, and yes the occassion asshole.

    Even if you were soloing there was a sort of communal experience to it unless you deliberately sought out a desereted corner of some low population zone.

    If you didn't experience it I probably can't convey how much fun it was.  A game like WoW simply cannot recreate that atmosphere.  Sure, you could go sit and grind mobs by yourself in WoW, or even get a few guildies to do it with you, but it's most definately not the same sort of experience.  When you do that in WoW it is just the most basic element of gameplay, which is mob grinding, without all the other stuff that made mob grinding fun in EQ.  And yes, it could get boring at times in EQ but then almost anything can get boring.

    So, anyway, when I started this post I didn't intend to write an essay on the good ol' days but there you have it.  That was the EQ that I loved and it's something you can't experience in WoW.  EQ absolutely had it's problems and it could be boring at times but the journey through the levels was for the most part a lot of fun. 

  • giggalgiggal ChesterfieldPosts: 116Member Uncommon

    I think its somthing i miss from my DAoc days, you would find yourself heals nukers tankers and go off and chain gank certain mobs till the exp sucked then change camps. You would repeat and then do it all again each level. however as soon as darkness falls opened it was all hands on deck to get to the portal before it closed.

    ive been around the block so to say since leaving daoc, i promise not to go back because within that game i had done everthing i wanted to achieve and when i resub i last 10 minutes before logging off again.

    I think back to the height of my daoc days it was "bard looking for group" and i would be in a group and i would get to know those players. Then i would move on to another group or get a message along the lines of "we going to kill xxx super mob want to come" and i would jump at it give folks time to replace me and go off and slap somthing big in a hard zone.

    When i played wow it wasnt even close you were the same as everyone else you followed the same quest trees every now and again you MAY group up to do a dungeon but after that you would never see those people again. You would go through each and every zone alone. Guilds recruitment policy consisted of being fully equipped maxed out at 60 before even getting an invite. i never worked that one out.

  • DefixoNDefixoN Orlando, FLPosts: 14Member

    I'm just going to keep this thread active, maybe someone "important" will find it ;)

    Anyway, the OP is spot on *IMO*.  Without major quest grinding you had the opportunity to meet other players (friends and enemies). In EQ, I met people all the time. I used to check my friends list every minute to see which people were on. These people were people I met through a videogame and they had so much importance to me. I don't want to just sit here and reminsce about EverQuest, so I will get to the point.

    Any MMO that has chained questlines will usually be played solo until you're max level. EVEN if you do find a partner to group with to do these quests (which is what I usually try to do) you will still feel that void because you are running from quest to quest, with absolutely zero downtime. Sure you could decide not do the quests in WoW (or other MMO's)and run instances instead...that's a legit option to level. But Why in the hell would I want to (KEYWORD:) *run* the same two instances over and over with a different group of people? How's that fun?!?

    In EQ, sure you sat at a camp and grinded the same damn mobs for hours, but you had FREEEEDOMMM. "How's that freedom?!" You ask. Simple answer, there were so many different zones and camps that you could grind at.. Different mobs, different dungeons, different sceneries, different encounters. You had the choice of many different zones to level at, you played where and how you wanted to play with the people that you wanted to play with.

    The only game that has held my attention since EQ was WoW and the ONLY way it did was because I used a glider (a bot that would grind mobs) until I was almost max level, and then I would do instances until I was 70, join a guild and raid. only thing that matters in that game is the end.

    I despise questing so much I decided to CHEAT..wtf? This sounds like a EQ/WOW comparison, it's not. They're just two examples. Please see the point in what I have typed up.

     

  • TorikTorik London, ONPosts: 2,343Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DefixoN



    In EQ, sure you sat at a camp and grinded the same damn mobs for hours, but you had FREEEEDOMMM. "How's that freedom?!" You ask. Simple answer, there were so many different zones and camps that you could grind at.. Different mobs, different dungeons, different sceneries, different encounters. You had the choice of many different zones to level at, you played where and how you wanted to play with the people that you wanted to play with.
    The only game that has held my attention since EQ was WoW and the ONLY way it did was because I used a glider (a bot that would grind mobs) until I was almost max level, and then I would do instances until I was 70, join a guild and raid. only thing that matters in that game is the end.
    I despise questing so much I decided to CHEAT..wtf? This sounds like a EQ/WOW comparison, it's not. They're just two examples. Please see the point in what I have typed up.
     

     

    This kind of argument always baffles me.  For someone who does not like to quest WoW has plenty of areas where you can just camp and grind mobs for XP.  If that's all you want to do then you have the freedom to do so. 

    Teh fact that you threw away that freedom to bot your way through the game tells me that what you really wanted to be at the 'cuting edge'.  In EQ that might have been to camp and grind your way through mobs until you were ready to raid.  In WoW the 'cutting edge' of leveling is questing and instances and since your prefered way of playing was not 'what the cool kids are doing' you threw it away so you could be with the 'cool kids' in the endgame. 

  • DefixoNDefixoN Orlando, FLPosts: 14Member

    I could have grinded mobs in WoW..definitely. But with whom??? Myself? I'll pass. I've never once saw a group in WoW just camping a spot for Xp or waiting for an important spawn.

    Grinding mobs by myself or questing by myself? I'll do neither and let a bot level me so that I can actually play with people (raids).

  • TorikTorik London, ONPosts: 2,343Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DefixoN


    I could have grinded mobs in WoW..definitely. But with whom??? Myself? I'll pass. I've never once saw a group in WoW just camping a spot for Xp or waiting for an important spawn.
    Grinding mobs by myself or questing by myself? I'll do neither and let a bot level me so that I can actually play with people (raids).

     

    Now this is a more honest answer.  Your problem was that you could not find enough people who played the way you wanted to play.  To me this can mean two things a) you were playing the wrong game for you b) you did not try enough.  It's the one thing that devs cannot program into the game:  other players liking to play the same way you do.  Other players are not content.  The only thing teh devs can do is program the game in such a way that players who do not like to play like you will hate the game and quit.

    I am a firm believer in giving the players the freedom to choose in how they want to play the game.  With that freedom comes the responsibility to go and find people who share your preferences rather then insisting that the devs provide you ready-made playing companions.

  • SereneBlueSereneBlue Dallas, TXPosts: 32Member
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by DefixoN

    I could have grinded mobs in WoW..definitely. But with whom??? Myself? I'll pass. I've never once saw a group in WoW just camping a spot for Xp or waiting for an important spawn.

    Grinding mobs by myself or questing by myself? I'll do neither and let a bot level me so that I can actually play with people (raids).

     

    Now this is a more honest answer.  Your problem was that you could not find enough people who played the way you wanted to play.  To me this can mean two things a) you were playing the wrong game for you b) you did not try enough.  It's the one thing that devs cannot program into the game:  other players liking to play the same way you do.  Other players are not content.  The only thing teh devs can do is program the game in such a way that players who do not like to play like you will hate the game and quit.

    I am a firm believer in giving the players the freedom to choose in how they want to play the game.  With that freedom comes the responsibility to go and find people who share your preferences rather then insisting that the devs provide you ready-made playing companions.

     

    Wow. What a blast from the past. Re-read my post. Have to say I still agree with myself from that post years ago. I also agree with the above poster, Torik. It is possible to group on-the-fly as I often do it in Iris Online - my latest and 2nd favorite MMO (after my staple - Atlantica Online) though possibly not as easy as it maybe was in Old-School MMOs (pre-WoW) like Everquest, etc.

     

    There've been a lot of good points raised in this thread. Much to think about.

  • spades07spades07 YesPosts: 847Member

    quest-grinding is lazy mmo design.

  • MagnetiaMagnetia SydneyPosts: 1,029Member Uncommon

    Depends how well designed the quests are. Are they interesting? Are they fun? Do they add to the overall experience/story? Is it just kill X of Y? 

    Any kind of grinding is going to be bad if it is arbitrary grinding to increase playtime/gain xp. Following an intruiging questline is far more interesting AND serves to level the character at the same time.

    Grinding can be fun if it's done well. If it's just kill 10 rats for all the monsters in the zone then yes. Quest grinding sucks majorly. If you throw an occasional kill 10 rats between some awesome story stuff then I will happily grind to the next area.

    Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,752Member Uncommon

         i'm not a fan of questing either, especially if it goes from quest hub to quest hub.....What I want is a world to explore with good XP for killing challenging monsters......I dont mind a quest here and there mixed in, but exploration is first and fo0remost for me.....When the entire game and world is focused on questing, then I generally dont enjoy the game for very long.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon

    I agree OP with you 110%... The linear quest hoping is so so so boring..  It lacks any sense of freedom and social gaming as you already pointed out..  It baffles me that our society has so many sheep being lead around, rather it be politics, economics or simple computer gaming..  I miss "most" of the gaming mechanics of the old school days..

  • ihatepugsihatepugs New York, NYPosts: 61Member

    I recall that when I played Everquest the opposite was true.  There was little questing to grind, and a lot of learning where to camp and find other players to group with for zones that have higher populations of monsters.  When that was the case, every single little bit of experience you gained was a blessing.  You ground and ground that bit of experience and you couldn't complain because everyone else was going through the same thing.  I understand that feel like you've been doing the same thing for the last few days, and you just want to get it done.  

    It's probably time to hop on a few other games to diversify your gaming experience a bit.  Too much of that one thing can kill your interest in a game.  I try to alternate FPS, RTS, MOBA, and MMORPGs for gaming part of my life, so things don't get too stale.  

    Maybe you need to find something to ease off that grind.  It's a game until it becomes a grind.  Then, it becomes a job, and you don't need to work that many jobs.  

  • SereneBlueSereneBlue Dallas, TXPosts: 32Member

    I have often wondered are there any MMORPGs that have random mobs roaming the fields? You know...something that's not part of any quest chain but rather as an incentive to explore the world and maybe enjoy it?

    One of my biggest gripes about Atlantica Online is that they keep releasing all these new mercs for you to recruit but haven't bothered to add new monsters or new areas in AGES.  The North America map is a joke. While Asia and Europe are positively hopping with towns and mobs the North American map (guess Central and South America don't even exist in the AO universe) has maybe five towns and huge stretches of land with no monsters or activities within it.

     

    The pre-WoW MMOs never could hold my interest very long. Especially since I kept comparing them to single player console games or the Multi-player options of popular PC games back in the day such as the Baldur's Gate series, Icewind Dale series, Planescape and Neverwinter Nights. Compared to those games playing things like Everquest or Final Fantasy 11 never was able to hold my interest for more than a few minutes at best.

    In one regard I do like the post-WoW MMORPGs. They do try to tell a story (well some of them do anyway like Atlantica Online) and I actually like that. I don't seem to recall much of that in the pre-WoW era MMOs though my experience of such was limited.

     

    I recently downloaded and installed Allods Online and was surprised to see many quests had lengthy story to go with them. It harkens back to the days of table top RPGs or text RPGs when words were pretty much the only way to convey 'atmosphere' and setting in a game. I liked it but I can see more action-oriented gamers not finding such things interesting but rather unnecessary and tedious.

     

    If the gameplay itself is fun grinding is not so bad in my personal experience. But finding a good role-playing group also helps though that's harder to come by. Most MMOs don't have Roleplay servers though unfortunately.

  • GazthSonikaGazthSonika Toronto, ONPosts: 20Member

    The problem with quest grinding is that the quests suck and involve next to no thinking.  Imo quests should be more like the ones from good old 90's rpgs such as Legend of Kyrandia, Eco Quest, or the amazing King's Quest series.  Those were interesting games, not the mindless wash-rinse-and-repeat quests that we face in today's "modern" mmo's.  There's just no challenge in them, that's why they feel like a grind.  Modern quests are the equivalent of having a paper route and delivering newspapers, that's about how much fun they are.

    GS

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member

    /snif

    /snif

    I love the smell of necro'd threads in the morning.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member

    I don't like quest grinding the way WoW, Rift, GW do it.

    But the way Vanguard did it I actually enjoyed, a lot of the xp came from killing and while missives were kill 10x, they were actually fun for some reason.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    /snif

    /snif

    I love the smell of necro'd threads in the morning.

    good eye

  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Posts: 1,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    /snif

    /snif

    I love the smell of necro'd threads in the morning.

    Hey, I enjoy rereading my rants so I got a kick out of it at least.  Geez, hard to believe it was almost three years ago when I posted that.

This discussion has been closed.