Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

[Column] General: About the Teardown Mentality

24

Comments

  • SuprGamerXSuprGamerX Montreal, QCPosts: 531Member

    Lol , it's not a question of if a game is to my liking or not.   It's the question of what this titles has to offer me over my current title?   Why would I leave my achievements from one MMORPG to restart from scratch on another MMORPG that looks pretty much like it but with a few differences in terms of graphics?      We gamers bash a MMO title not because we like to bash , but because we want to know exactly what the new title has to offer me that will make want to start from scratch and have a good time?   I mean GW2 , people are reaching level cap inside of 3 weeks without even trying , so why would I want to play GW2? PlanetSide2 are missing key components from PS1 , which is really stupid.   SWtor ... don't even get me started on TOR...

     

       So yeah , remove the hype meter off this site and I swear you'll have a lot less ragers posting.  When I see dark fall being extremely over hyped at 8.58 / 10 , don't ask yourselves why you see ragers.

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by Azuri21
    There can only be one....

    LOL!

    Great article. I think Pirhanhas is another good analogy: Once one smells blood and does that "feeding frenzy" behavior it sets off the rest! :D

  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon

    Nothing to do with any of that.  As long as developers continue to put crap games out there they will get tons of criticism and deservedly so.  You should stop trying to psychoanalyze something with silly rejoinders and look at the obvious fact that none these games lately have been very good.

    So it is rather hard to argue for any kind of tear down mentality when there is a lot to criticize about these games.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    Nothing to do with any of that.  As long as developers continue to put crap games out there they will get tons of criticism and deservedly so.  You should stop trying to psychoanalyze something with silly rejoinders and look at the obvious fact that none these games lately have been very good.

    So it is rather hard to argue for any kind of tear down mentality when there is a lot to criticize about these games.

    You did a great job exemplifying one of his points:

     

    The Customer Satisfaction Premise

    Here's something I picked up from Keen at Keen and Graev's Gaming Blog: the idea of dissatisfaction being caused by previous exposure. Basically, the idea as it relates to the tearing down premise is that we set ourselves up to hate things based on our expectations, as determined by past experiences. As Keen explains,

    "If a developer aims for 100% enjoyment or innovation, then players will come to expect that level of enjoyment and innovation.  That means next time you’re going to have to meet that same level of enjoyment and innovation or else you will fail to meet expectations, and a high level of disconfirmation will result and players will be unhappy."

     

    ------------------------------------

    That's exactly what he was talking about.

  • therain93therain93 Winthrop, MAPosts: 2,039Member

    Dear DAG (Devil's Advocate Guy),

    I think you missed a very important point -- the notion of cognitive dissonance.  Basically, when people are holding conflicting ideas, beliefs, or emotions, one of the atural reactions is to try to reduce or eliminate that dissonance while maintaining their belief structure.  A typical example is buyer's remorse when purchasing a new car and seeking out reasons to justify why that purcharse was worthwhile.

    In the context of this column, ripping another game or criticizing praise for another game can also be a defense mechanism to reinforce the belief that what you've chosen is much better and worthwhile.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member

    So here's one I've noticed which can destroy a thread in a hurry.

    Often you see, quick, short, unsubstantiated, biting remarks like often in response to long posts which you can tell someone took time on:

    "Nah, it sux." 

    "Are you delusional?"

    "Fact: This game blows"

    Or some such thing.

    Some have taken the form of meme's like 'you mad bro' or 'tl;dr'.

     

    Now, while it may seem I'm resoundingly against these responses as the problem, it is deeper than that imo.

    Because if I share the opinion and the remark is well placed; it is funny. I laugh. It feels spot on. And there will be others who share the opinion, and they'll laugh and comment too, like with a +1 or a /thread or ^this. These are the people who get 'the joke'.

    But here's the rub, and you all know it:

    When you disagree with the snide remark, you get peeved. Feel dismissed. It is naturally frustrating when you have invested in some idea and it is blown off dismissively with a 'tl;dr'.

    And there will be others that share this sentiment. Responding with 'you have no proof'; you don't understand fact from opinion. there is often identifying the person as a troll, hater, etc.

    Anyway; I think it is one of the problems threads become destructive. One man's joke is another man's soul. Or something.

  • therain93therain93 Winthrop, MAPosts: 2,039Member
    Originally posted by Azuri21
    There can only be one....

    Eloquently put, whether intended to or not.

    There are some people out there that see the world as a zero-sum/binary situation -- you simply have to pick one and there's no conceivable way that two things can be good or good in their own ways. Let's take the superhero mmo genre - DC Universe Online, Champions Online and, until last week, City of Heroes.  There were some posters that swore up and down, pledging allegiance to one of them, crowning it the best.  The reality is, other than the superhero skin, they really do play quite differently with their own merits and, in my humble opinion, didn't necessarily compete directly against each other.  Even more important is that for many of us, we have enough disposable income to enjoy more than one of them.  Yet, some people simply can't tolerate that....

  • VendettaDFAVendettaDFA Pleasant Hill, MOPosts: 72Member
    Opinions on anything in forums are fine and criticisms if constructive and explained should be accepted. Differing opinions exist. The problem comes when someone feels they are not winning the discussion of opinion and begins replacing fact or on topic information with personal attacks or assumptions of who this person with the view contrary to theirs actually is. Then if that response goes unchecked the dog-pile begins thus fanbois pile on someone declaring him a subhuman hater and haters pile on someone making him out to be a butt smooching fanboi.  When the post gets personal even to the point of "you pulled your facts out of your hat' - the train has left the tracks and the teardown is on.
  • RyowulfRyowulf Greensburg, PAPosts: 668Member

    There will never be a game that doesn't have haters.  I find it funny people say, make a good game and we won't troll them.  Trolls don't troll because a game is bad.

    The question isn't why do some people point out the flaws of a game. Its why do people start threads bashing a game they don't even play. "Why this game sux so bad?".  Why make hate threads that have no meaningful content or are misleading.

    As much as fanboys ignore what's bad about their love, haters are why same way (ignoring the good).  If someone is playing and enjoying a game why is it your mission to to tear it down?  If you are leaving a game why announce it?  Why be such a Mary Sue?

    Its like going into a restaurant (using the above example) and ordering something from the menu, but the dish isn't for you. Maybe the picture or description appealed to you but the food failed to live up to expectations.

    So you get up to go, maybe not leaving a tip, but as you reach the door you turn around and scream to the whole restaurant, "My meal sucked. This place is the worst." Then you go outside and make a sign and spend you off hours standing outside the door ranting and  shouting "The place is filled with rats."

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Crazy_Stick

    OP, I think you are trying to over rationalize forum behavior from a slimly sociological perspective to develop an excuse for why things are the way they are that fits your preconceived notions of why people post emotionally on various subjects. In truth, it could be as simple a fact as acknowledging that gaming (playing) is an inherently childish activity for emotional release or satisfaction prone to breed childish behavior in both its best and worse sense. As such a site for the discussion of game opinion can only follow suit.

    You are way off base if you think that for a second. A while ago I was doing research while creating a website for my brother-in-law who is a dentist. I happened upon a forum for premed students while looking up terms and gathering information about them. One hot topic of dicussion was why some premed students feel it necessary to wear their lab coats or scrubs around campus to stroke their egos. The whole topic turned into a flame war about who's better than who and it was far from mature.

     

    All I can say is you'd be surprise at the amount of "childish" behavior that goes on even if gaming isn't involved in forums. Maybe you should think about that next time you feel money, intelligence or power breeds mature rational thinking. We were all children at one point and none of us are perfect at keeping that child in us from resurfacing every now and then, myself included. You can be a gamer, doctor or judge it doesn't matter. No one is immune to doing and saying foolish things.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,995Member Uncommon
    If all of you would just agree that my opinions on gaming are the only true and correct ones to have then all the hate would stop. Till then....

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    There's two kinds of negativity around here.  One is negativity against games.  It may be constructive, it may be venting, it may be unflattering comparisions. 

     

    The other kind of negativity is toward other gamers. 

     

    At least the negativity towards games is more on point.  And what some people call negativity I call insight. 

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon

    I don't mind a negative review as long as there's an explanation behind it.  Just tell us why you dislike it and it's all good.  "This game sux" is just lame and lazy.

     

    Good article, and thanks for looking at motivations, OP!

  • bliss14bliss14 eleva, WIPosts: 565Member
    Originally posted by gaeanprayer

    I never really saw this until I stepped away from this site for a while, been too busy enjoying GW2 and like, participating in life n' stuff. I popped in the other day and was almost knocked over by how polar opposite the people on this site are to every other site out there. It's pretty poisonous in here, probably about time to be even more heavy-handed on the penalties and bans.

     

    In any case, I don't think this is about entitlement nor do I think this is about the games themselves. I think this boils down to psychology; human beings are by nature evil, vile, gross and without redemption. You like to think you are naturally good and occasionally do bad things, but it's the opposite. Then you get into an online environment where anonymity let's you be the thing you truly are behind closed doors, mob mentality kicks in, and you have what this article claims, the "teardown generation". In other words, people do it for no other reason than that they can, because people are no better than animals and more often than not, are far worse.

     

    The end.

    Wow.  Someone has lost their faith in humanity.  I'm curious if you think it applies to you?

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,144Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Naucano

    The problem is not to be negative, but to be negative just for the sake of it or without argument or reason.

    Too many forum writers are positiv or negative without an argument. If there is a reason to complain, you are allowed, you are bound, you need to complain.

    Exactly this is the problem as I also stressed many times. Some people should be banned access to keyboard or at least to ANY gaming forum. 

    They find some kind of twisted, sick pleasure destroying something they do not even play or look. Games I do not like or do not play I never chase on any possible forums trying to tear them down. I'm sure such mind sick personalities act same way in their lives. Usually they are total loosers but they need attention.

    As said ... do not like? Fine, do not play and stay AWAY!

    Many, too many, if not perfect then playable games, have been destroyed literaly by such sickos.

     
  • allendale5allendale5 kansas city, MOPosts: 124Member
    • I don't think that a forum dedicated solely to praising games would be interesting, constructive,  or successful.  
    • Sanitized and highly moderated forums are always a failure and players always see through the propaganda.  
    • Negativity sells.  Just turn on the television and see what news stories lead the way.  Wars, death, accidents, screw-ups, cover-ups, sex scandals -- that's what people seem to want.  Show me a positive news channel that is successful.
    • Players have the right to voice their honest opinions.  If we buy into the hype of a game and pay good money for it, and if that cookie turns out to be a rotten turnip, we should be able to express our distaste.
    Victor -- on a personal note : I always enjoy your posts and your positive influence on this site, but having said that, I think that it's fair to say that we have all been negative at some point here, but only in a collective effort to improve the games that we love.  
  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance ParisPosts: 1,223Member

    Good post, but on a slight aside:

    It depends on why you come to a gaming forum in the first place. In my case, it is not really to harp on negative things. I do sometimes complain, but I try to state why I dislike something. I do also sometimes post positively too. I also admit to coming on here to see what people have to say about a new release.

    However, there is a lot more to MMORPG than that: blogs, screenshots, posts about hardware, forums about discussing the direction of games, getting advice about what game fits a certain playstyle, and also about the MMO industry as a whole.

    I used to go on another major gaming forum too and there were similar things on offer. So let's not forget about those aspects of forums like these when dissing the people who come here ;)

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

    image
  • YolenYolen ZgierzPosts: 14Member

    To be honest, both haters and fanboys are bad to the game.

    That put aside I think that a LOT of fault is on developers:

    1. They try to overhype game, making it a next messiah of MMOS - and even if game is decent, that is not enough. Sure, initial sales will be blow up by people who listened to hype - but will they stay? Heck no.

    2. They rest on laureals. They launch game and take vacation, put a patch once few months and think that's enough. Uh... nope? You must hit hard and fast and don't stop hitting.

    3. They don't LISTEN, they don't SOCIALIZE - they put themselves on high horses and above players. You wanna be a developer? Join communities, listen to people, analyze, react...

    4. They join big companies like EA or ACTIVISION. Well if you sold your soul to the highest bidder and let the suits take control - don't come whining players are frustrated.

    5. They build content instead of systems, especially the ones that let players make content byu their actions. So no wonder players are bored if you only put stuff reiniscent of a singleplayer DLC...

    Probably it, remind me if I forgot something.

  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORPosts: 464Member

    I thought the same way for a while, but have come to realize it's not the tear down mentality...games just really suck. You have a generation that's been raised on cinematic button tappers, and the generation before that is no longer catered too. One is spoiled, so they are unhappy with anything you give them. The other is unhappy with the decline in the quality of modern games.

    Both are angry, but there is a single solution to pleasing them both: Make a good game.

  • TheodwulfTheodwulf Brockton, MAPosts: 231Member Uncommon

         This sort of reasoning is what game developers  keep citing as a defence for badly made games. It's not some cabal of angry internet folk, living in their parents basement trying to hurt you to prop up their own failing self esteem. The game was that bad. The hype so manufactured by the  online shills. The industry critics were so paid off. and the game was that bad.That is why people were enraged by the bad games.  I am so tired of industry apologists trying to regain their lost credibility, We know that you are a shill for game makers. You sold out and can never be held credible again.  Your opinion is now considered puffery.If game devs want to be considered credible again, make a good game. If industry reporters want to be held credible again..stop whoring out your name to the creators of bad games.

     

     

     

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by therain93

    Dear DAG (Devil's Advocate Guy),

    I think you missed a very important point -- the notion of cognitive dissonance.  Basically, when people are holding conflicting ideas, beliefs, or emotions, one of the atural reactions is to try to reduce or eliminate that dissonance while maintaining their belief structure.  A typical example is buyer's remorse when purchasing a new car and seeking out reasons to justify why that purcharse was worthwhile.

    In the context of this column, ripping another game or criticizing praise for another game can also be a defense mechanism to reinforce the belief that what you've chosen is much better and worthwhile.

    Good addition - people can hold contradictory evidence in their pov and airbrush the conclusion to match their committed position already.

    This pic captures something!:

    tweets_vs_pecks

  • DerrosDerros Posts: 1,077Member Uncommon

    Bashing a game is now part of the game experience, a new form of entertainment.  Its part of the constantly connected, constantly posting every little thought mentality of facebook and twitter and all this social networking. 

     

    You could produce the 2nd coming of ultima, AC, EQ and WoW, all blended seamlessly into one perfectly harmonious game, and forums would be flooded with hate, because that IS the game for many people.  Thats how they socialize online.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Terranah

    There's two kinds of negativity around here.  One is negativity against games.  It may be constructive, it may be venting, it may be unflattering comparisions. 

     

    The other kind of negativity is toward other gamers. 

     

    At least the negativity towards games is more on point.  And what some people call negativity I call insight. 

    Those two things are often intertwined - more often than not, I see negativity toward gamers due to their negativity toward a game.

    Ex: 'WoW is a kiddie game'. The gamer is insulted because of the posters negative opinion about the game. 

  • victorbjrvictorbjr Quezon CityPosts: 185Member Uncommon

    Hey folks.

     

    Apologies for not responding sooner, as I've not been feeling great, and then I had to cover a Philippine game development awards ceremony tonight. 

    I want to take the most insightful comments here and respond to them in next DA while using the other half of my write-up to discuss another topic (which I shall determine depending on what happens in the realms of gaming in the coming week).

    That said, props to therain93 for pointing out cognitive dissonance and Loktofeit for finding the powder keg thing. I was going nuts looking for the terminology and thought it was tipping point, but Powder keg analogies also work well. :D

    A writer and gamer from the Philippines. Loves his mom dearly. :)

    Can also be found on http://www.gamesandgeekery.com

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Or, expressed more simply, victim mentality negativity is contagious.

    We knew that.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

Sign In or Register to comment.