The greatest lack of depth ...for me...in GW2 is the WvW.Faction fighting is more like a mob basketball game with how many points you can score with your zerg being the focus.We all get multiple characters to 80.....and this sad feature is what you get.
FOR ME...faction fighting is why I play any mmog.The lack of tactics and strategy in this feature has put me on the sidelines of playing any mmog atm.
After reading Elikal's thread about combat it got me thinking about the combat system. I've only just started playing GW2 as I've been in a few launches and they are just not fun so I held off for a few months. Now I've played a Mesmer to lvl 7 and my main is a lvl 19 Warrior so I am by no means an expert on this and thats really the point of the thread.
At the start of playing this game I was finding that I was dying frequently, solo and in groups and I thought this cannot be right I'm not that bad so I started to actually think why was this happening, this for me is the first sign of a deeper system than many other MMO's as the last few I've played its like putting on an old pair of boots with new laces. But unlike Elikal its not just about moving around, though thats a good portion to it, its about thinking what type of toon you want to play and then proceeding to build that toon. So for me looking at the weapon, skill and traits system and reading up on what a Warrior can be, I can already see a few different builds for my Warrior and have decided on one to follow. Now I don't get downed/die as much and I'm starting to use my weapon skills appropriately for the right situation this has been a slow but decent learning curve for me and that adds to the fun. With the added customization of gear and RNG I see finding the perfect build a bit of a longer process than I originally thought and that for me is a bonus. This is not pick a tree and bang your points in it type of system there is room for movement in how you build up your toon.
But it doesn't stop there, the mob system seems to have depth as well in that you have to watch for special attacks, debuffs, stuns etc.. that can actually have a serious effect on you rather than just a pretty animation. Now its all a bit hazy at the moment as it takes time to get to know the different attacks on different mobs and in a group you do whizz through content but it starts to really show on Champions and Veterens and when you solo a few mobs at once you have to be on your toes or you'll be downed quickly.
In saying all this, its all just "seems to have lots of depth" at the moment and it could just be from the dazzle of starting a fresh MMO with a different type of combat & skill system that has lots of options but very few actual usable builds and the spectre of limited customisation, fotm classes, skill rotations and rolfstomping will rear its ugly head but at the moment I'm having to think on my feet if I want avoid the crazy die/rez dance of completing content successfully.
You can analize any game and break it down to sound more complicated then it actually is. Which you did here. It's not as in depth as you're making it sound in actual gameplay. It pretty simplistic really, as is most combat in MMO's. I just didn't really care for the weapon skills or combat as much as I though I would. I felt like I was also running around like an idiot. I'm not saying it's bad.. it just wasn't for me and quickly became overly repetative and boring. I'm glad you dig it.
Originally posted by Dibdabs We get the combat system - we really do. We aren't missing anything. The people who think they know something other people don't are deluding themselves. Once you have had a look at weapon skills, looked at the combos, got the pattern of key presses, that's it - I can snooze-control through the fights while I chat on Skype to a few of the guys, listen to music, whatever. It's pretty much the same in MMOs these days as I've already said, so I'm not saying GW2 is at fault or lacking somehow.
No you can't, especially not in WvW. Maybe against base mobs you can get away with it in lower levels if you're careful. Try that against a Veteran Karka and get back to us.
Hey... I know... enlighten us with your knowledge. Give us an example of this "pattern of key presses" you refer to. That was definitely true in WoW... I was quite adept at the 9-6-9 rotation on my pally tank... but the whole concept is completely invalid in GW2... unless you can, as asked, provide examples...
The greatest lack of depth ...for me...in GW2 is the WvW.Faction fighting is more like a mob basketball game with how many points you can score with your zerg being the focus.We all get multiple characters to 80.....and this sad feature is what you get.
FOR ME...faction fighting is why I play any mmog.The lack of tactics and strategy in this feature has put me on the sidelines of playing any mmog atm.
Yikes, what server you on? You should hop onto Jade Quarry, get in TS and run with an organized group.
Depth?Subtract a lot of skills/buttons and trade 1 for a dodge and walla, GW2. Its very simplistic which, to its credit, doesn't nessisarily mean its bad either. GW2 is a game that practically anyone can jump in and play. Once you have dodge figured out you will find combat is very easy.
Its just not really that complex. The biggest thing is it helps make mobs feel more like 'bosses' with more mechanics being important to note, though in many cases its more trivial and its a small thing.
Once you go outside the realm of solo play and get into group play is where GW2 - IMO - really falls apart.
What group play are you talking about? My guild haven't been zooming through content and it's only the past few weeks that we've focused on organised group content. For us it's been a great (and sometimes frustrating) experience, get a tight knit group who know their classes, know when to support and are situationally aware and group content is a real blast, I say in that situation it really comes together.
He means it falls apart for people who enjoy relying on crutches like tanks and healers, and who actually have no idea how to REALLY act as a group.
You arent acting as a group if one person just spams heals and another spams taunts. Thats everyone focusing on their own role and not caring about what the others do. Then when it fails they start the blame game.
In GW2 you have to actually work as a team, and good teamwork is rewarded, being a selfish 'me me me' person is punished. Thats where it falls apart for a lot of these players.
Originally posted by Dibdabs We get the combat system - we really do. We aren't missing anything. The people who think they know something other people don't are deluding themselves. Once you have had a look at weapon skills, looked at the combos, got the pattern of key presses, that's it - I can snooze-control through the fights while I chat on Skype to a few of the guys, listen to music, whatever. It's pretty much the same in MMOs these days as I've already said, so I'm not saying GW2 is at fault or lacking somehow.
It is what it is. I thin the prolbem stems from the fact, and I will use Rift as an example, in many games there are just too many junk and useless skills. A.Net tried to make all the skills useful but have fewer skills. Not saying they succeeded but that is the idea. I cannot play a game were you have to use macros to use all the skills and have 5-6 skill bars in which 90% of the skills are junk or so situational to be useless.
In most cases people don't even use the combos in the game. You can even make up your own combos which kept things fresh for me. Because like a fighting game I keep changing up how I start them. Only thing I need is a combo counter mod lol......
Originally posted by Dibdabs We get the combat system - we really do. We aren't missing anything. The people who think they know something other people don't are deluding themselves. Once you have had a look at weapon skills, looked at the combos, got the pattern of key presses, that's it - I can snooze-control through the fights while I chat on Skype to a few of the guys, listen to music, whatever. It's pretty much the same in MMOs these days as I've already said, so I'm not saying GW2 is at fault or lacking somehow.
It is what it is. I thin the prolbem stems from the fact, and I will use Rift as an example, in many games there are just too many junk and useless skills. A.Net tried to make all the skills useful but have fewer skills. Not saying they succeeded but that is the idea. I cannot play a game were you have to use macros to use all the skills and have 5-6 skill bars in which 90% of the skills are junk or so situational to be useless.
I agree, in Rift, EQ2 and WoW 95% of your skills get put into 1-3 supermacros. So you essentially end up playing by smashing 1 repeatedly and throwing in a few 2s and 3s as stuff pops up. So challenging!
In GW2 every skill is important, so is attunement / weapon kit / weapon swapping, and dodging. Makes combat a lot more meaningful. To anyone saying the combat is shallow, which MMO beats it? Definitely not any of the WoW or EQ clones, not TSW, definitely not TERA.... so which game has more impressive combat? I would be interested to try it out, honestly.
Vanguard had neat skills and some cool chain / reactive abilities, but that was just about paying attention, not really skill.
Conan had an interesting take on combat, but in the end you just hit your skills and then did a quick combo (that was the same every time) to fire them off. For all intents and purposes they may as well have just had the skills activate with one press.
After reading Elikal's thread about combat it got me thinking about the combat system. I've only just started playing GW2 as I've been in a few launches and they are just not fun so I held off for a few months. Now I've played a Mesmer to lvl 7 and my main is a lvl 19 Warrior so I am by no means an expert on this and thats really the point of the thread.
At the start of playing this game I was finding that I was dying frequently, solo and in groups and I thought this cannot be right I'm not that bad so I started to actually think why was this happening, this for me is the first sign of a deeper system than many other MMO's as the last few I've played its like putting on an old pair of boots with new laces. But unlike Elikal its not just about moving around, though thats a good portion to it, its about thinking what type of toon you want to play and then proceeding to build that toon. So for me looking at the weapon, skill and traits system and reading up on what a Warrior can be, I can already see a few different builds for my Warrior and have decided on one to follow. Now I don't get downed/die as much and I'm starting to use my weapon skills appropriately for the right situation this has been a slow but decent learning curve for me and that adds to the fun. With the added customization of gear and RNG I see finding the perfect build a bit of a longer process than I originally thought and that for me is a bonus. This is not pick a tree and bang your points in it type of system there is room for movement in how you build up your toon.
But it doesn't stop there, the mob system seems to have depth as well in that you have to watch for special attacks, debuffs, stuns etc.. that can actually have a serious effect on you rather than just a pretty animation. Now its all a bit hazy at the moment as it takes time to get to know the different attacks on different mobs and in a group you do whizz through content but it starts to really show on Champions and Veterens and when you solo a few mobs at once you have to be on your toes or you'll be downed quickly.
In saying all this, its all just "seems to have lots of depth" at the moment and it could just be from the dazzle of starting a fresh MMO with a different type of combat & skill system that has lots of options but very few actual usable builds and the spectre of limited customisation, fotm classes, skill rotations and rolfstomping will rear its ugly head but at the moment I'm having to think on my feet if I want avoid the crazy die/rez dance of completing content successfully.
You can analize any game and break it down to sound more complicated then it actually is. Which you did here. It's not as in depth as you're making it sound in actual gameplay. It pretty simplistic really, as is most combat in MMO's. I just didn't really care for the weapon skills or combat as much as I though I would. I felt like I was also running around like an idiot. I'm not saying it's bad.. it just wasn't for me and quickly became overly repetative and boring. I'm glad you dig it.
Or you can break it down and make it more simplisting and boring than it is.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
After reading Elikal's thread about combat it got me thinking about the combat system. I've only just started playing GW2 as I've been in a few launches and they are just not fun so I held off for a few months. Now I've played a Mesmer to lvl 7 and my main is a lvl 19 Warrior so I am by no means an expert on this and thats really the point of the thread.
At the start of playing this game I was finding that I was dying frequently, solo and in groups and I thought this cannot be right I'm not that bad so I started to actually think why was this happening, this for me is the first sign of a deeper system than many other MMO's as the last few I've played its like putting on an old pair of boots with new laces. But unlike Elikal its not just about moving around, though thats a good portion to it, its about thinking what type of toon you want to play and then proceeding to build that toon. So for me looking at the weapon, skill and traits system and reading up on what a Warrior can be, I can already see a few different builds for my Warrior and have decided on one to follow. Now I don't get downed/die as much and I'm starting to use my weapon skills appropriately for the right situation this has been a slow but decent learning curve for me and that adds to the fun. With the added customization of gear and RNG I see finding the perfect build a bit of a longer process than I originally thought and that for me is a bonus. This is not pick a tree and bang your points in it type of system there is room for movement in how you build up your toon.
But it doesn't stop there, the mob system seems to have depth as well in that you have to watch for special attacks, debuffs, stuns etc.. that can actually have a serious effect on you rather than just a pretty animation. Now its all a bit hazy at the moment as it takes time to get to know the different attacks on different mobs and in a group you do whizz through content but it starts to really show on Champions and Veterens and when you solo a few mobs at once you have to be on your toes or you'll be downed quickly.
In saying all this, its all just "seems to have lots of depth" at the moment and it could just be from the dazzle of starting a fresh MMO with a different type of combat & skill system that has lots of options but very few actual usable builds and the spectre of limited customisation, fotm classes, skill rotations and rolfstomping will rear its ugly head but at the moment I'm having to think on my feet if I want avoid the crazy die/rez dance of completing content successfully.
You can analize any game and break it down to sound more complicated then it actually is. Which you did here. It's not as in depth as you're making it sound in actual gameplay. It pretty simplistic really, as is most combat in MMO's. I just didn't really care for the weapon skills or combat as much as I though I would. I felt like I was also running around like an idiot. I'm not saying it's bad.. it just wasn't for me and quickly became overly repetative and boring. I'm glad you dig it.
And thats why I created this thread as I was asking basically is it all flattering to deceive. So what makes it simplistic? At the moment I'm leaning towards it being quite deep as I'm not seeing many explanations as to what makes it truly shallow while many have gone into why they think its quite deep.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Originally posted by muffins89 it's percieved depth. gw2 combat is pretty shallow. aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat. with movement. oh, and dodge.
What are you implying? That "themepark" MMOs don't have any depth in their combat? Please don't tell me that sandboxes have more depth!
@OP, I like the combat in Guild Wars 2. But as someone who has spent 1-3k on GW1, I can definitely say that GW2 has less depth to it. This doesn't mean it is shallow. It just means that GW1 had incredible customisation. No other MMO has such customisation as GW1. It's beyond me why ArenaNet decided to reduce the number of skills and make the skills bound to a weapon. I find it so annoying that my first 5 skills are chosen for me and I can only choose utility skills. They even impose limitations on how you chose your second 5 skills. You always need to have 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. Did I say that you only have a handful of elite skills? GW1 had 1500+ skills among 10 classes which works out between 100-150 per class. It was incredible variety.
As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.
The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.
The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.
GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.
Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).
Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".
Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?
Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.
Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).
Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.
Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.
That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.
Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.
From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?
I would take GW1's system any day.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.
The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.
The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.
GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.
Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).
Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".
Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?
Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.
Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).
Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.
Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.
That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.
Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.
From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?
I would take GW1's system any day.
Did GW1 have an abundance of skills at launch? I only played for 10's of hours and started with Nighfall, the game just did not grab me I was an L2 junkie at the time.
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Originally posted by muffins89 it's percieved depth. gw2 combat is pretty shallow. aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat. with movement. oh, and dodge.
What are you implying? That "themepark" MMOs don't have any depth in their combat? Please don't tell me that sandboxes have more depth!
@OP, I like the combat in Guild Wars 2. But as someone who has spent 1-3k on GW1, I can definitely say that GW2 has less depth to it. This doesn't mean it is shallow. It just means that GW1 had incredible customisation. No other MMO has such customisation as GW1. It's beyond me why ArenaNet decided to reduce the number of skills and make the skills bound to a weapon. I find it so annoying that my first 5 skills are chosen for me and I can only choose utility skills. They even impose limitations on how you chose your second 5 skills. You always need to have 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. Did I say that you only have a handful of elite skills? GW1 had 1500+ skills among 10 classes which works out between 100-150 per class. It was incredible variety.
As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.
The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.
The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.
GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.
Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).
Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".
Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?
Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.
Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).
Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.
Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.
That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.
Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.
From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?
I would take GW1's system any day.
Did GW1 have an abundance of skills at launch? I only played for 10's of hours and started with Nighfall, the game just did not grab me I was an L2 junkie at the time.
The difference is GW had the Trinity - GW2 does not.
As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.
The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.
The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.
GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.
Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).
Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".
Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?
Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.
Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).
Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.
Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.
That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.
Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.
From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?
I would take GW1's system any day.
Did GW1 have an abundance of skills at launch? I only played for 10's of hours and started with Nighfall, the game just did not grab me I was an L2 junkie at the time.
Yes it did. Add the skills from the following two categories:
In Prophecies, the first GW1 game released, each class has between 72 (mesmer) and 79 (elementalist) skills. Then consider the fact that you have two professions per character and you have about 150 skills to mix and match with.
By the time they got to Nightfall, each of the core professions had about 140 skills, assassins and ritualists had 110, and paragon and dervish had 85. Not to mention the shared PvE skills and faction based skills.
Regarding the previous poster who said only a few builds were viable - yeah that's a lie, only a few builds were popular or overpowered at any one time. That isnt the same as viable.
As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.
The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.
The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.
GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.
Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).
Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".
Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?
Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.
Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).
Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.
Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.
That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.
Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.
From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?
I would take GW1's system any day.
Did GW1 have an abundance of skills at launch? I only played for 10's of hours and started with Nighfall, the game just did not grab me I was an L2 junkie at the time.
Yes it did. Add the skills from the following two categories:
In Prophecies, the first GW1 game released, each class has between 72 (mesmer) and 79 (elementalist) skills. Then consider the fact that you have two professions per character and you have about 150 skills to mix and match with.
By the time they got to Nightfall, each of the core professions had about 140 skills, assassins and ritualists had 110, and paragon and dervish had 85. Not to mention the shared PvE skills and faction based skills.
Regarding the previous poster who said only a few builds were viable - yeah that's a lie, only a few builds were popular or overpowered at any one time. That isnt the same as viable.
Again just looking at the numbers of skills mean nothing.
Running an empty skill bar was also a viable way of finishing GW1 PvE.
Apparently loads of people like to gimp themselves.
Next people will post wammos with healing hands and mending...
It is very simple, in any game with limited party sizes if my build out perform yours I get the spot and you get the boot. So only the best builds are viable.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Originally posted by muffins89 it's percieved depth. gw2 combat is pretty shallow. aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat. with movement. oh, and dodge.
What are you implying? That "themepark" MMOs don't have any depth in their combat? Please don't tell me that sandboxes have more depth!
@OP, I like the combat in Guild Wars 2. But as someone who has spent 1-3k on GW1, I can definitely say that GW2 has less depth to it. This doesn't mean it is shallow. It just means that GW1 had incredible customisation. No other MMO has such customisation as GW1. It's beyond me why ArenaNet decided to reduce the number of skills and make the skills bound to a weapon. I find it so annoying that my first 5 skills are chosen for me and I can only choose utility skills. They even impose limitations on how you chose your second 5 skills. You always need to have 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. Did I say that you only have a handful of elite skills? GW1 had 1500+ skills among 10 classes which works out between 100-150 per class. It was incredible variety.
As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.
The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.
The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.
GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.
Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).
Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".
Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?
Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.
Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).
Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.
Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.
That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.
Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.
From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?
I would take GW1's system any day.
I'm talking elite hm PvE areas builds.
PvP after the first year or so was defined by what was nerfed or buffed by anet or not,
The smite boon nerf for pvp was hilarious - it could have read unusable in pvp and be more useful that what it actually was.
Shall we talk about the presence of Necromancers, Assassins, Ritualists, Paragons and Elementalists in GvG? Or better the residual usage of these professions aside specific time frames cause by skills imbalance?
Dual professions was one of the worst mistakes because it meant many skills were better used by professions with superior primary attributes
The way enery management skills kept being nerfed because monks could use it, the way monk smite skills had to be nerfed becused mesmers were using them, rangers abusing daggers, blood spike, mesmer spike, ranger with ritualist weapon spike, the time GvG became a farming NPCs game with VoD change, the turtle play paragons allowed at nightfall releasem etc, etc. Funny times, but hey 150 skills...
What other professions skills do you want to use for a warrior?
You wamt to use daggers? Or scythe (was viable before the derrvish revamp and in fact the warrior was better with it than the dervish making the dervish useless for a PvE elite area team). The only non warrior skill I can see a warrior use is the assassin dearh's charge on thr Manly Spike teams.
You guys just don't get what viable is in GW1 and GW2 context.
GW1 and GW2 isn't about failling or not, it is about how fast you can do it.
A build that takes 1 hour to finish something other takes 10 minutes isn't viable.
Additionally if a profession slows down the run speed, it isn't viable.
So, yeah, indeed a PvE warrior is around 12 skills + PvE only skills, and that is allowing for builds that use heroes.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.
The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.
The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.
GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.
Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).
Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".
Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?
Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.
Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).
Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.
Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.
That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.
Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.
From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?
I would take GW1's system any day.
Did GW1 have an abundance of skills at launch? I only played for 10's of hours and started with Nighfall, the game just did not grab me I was an L2 junkie at the time.
Yes it did. Add the skills from the following two categories:
In Prophecies, the first GW1 game released, each class has between 72 (mesmer) and 79 (elementalist) skills. Then consider the fact that you have two professions per character and you have about 150 skills to mix and match with.
By the time they got to Nightfall, each of the core professions had about 140 skills, assassins and ritualists had 110, and paragon and dervish had 85. Not to mention the shared PvE skills and faction based skills.
Regarding the previous poster who said only a few builds were viable - yeah that's a lie, only a few builds were popular or overpowered at any one time. That isnt the same as viable.
Again just looking at the numbers of skills mean nothing.
Running an empty skill bar was also a viable way of finishing GW1 PvE.
Apparently loads of people like to gimp themselves.
Next people will post wammos with healing hands and mending...
It is very simple, in any game with limited party sizes if my build out perform yours I get the spot and you get the boot. So only the best builds are viable.
No, some people just didn't feel the need to be a sheep. Baaa, baaaa, baaaa.
Plenty of skill combinations worked well, not everyone had to rely on the current FOTM builds to get through the elite dungeons.
Not using typical builds in PvP made it easy to smash the FOTM sheep as well.
Again just looking at the numbers of skills mean nothing.
Running an empty skill bar was also a viable way of finishing GW1 PvE.
Apparently loads of people like to gimp themselves.
Next people will post wammos with healing hands and mending...
It is very simple, in any game with limited party sizes if my build out perform yours I get the spot and you get the boot. So only the best builds are viable.
No, some people just didn't feel the need to be a sheep. Baaa, baaaa, baaaa.
Plenty of skill combinations worked well, not everyone had to rely on the current FOTM builds to get through the elite dungeons.
Not using typical builds in PvP made it easy to smash the FOTM sheep as well.
The difference between my posts and yours is that actually I can detail skills, builds, build names, metagame periods.
Your posts on the other hand are filled with generalities, that might sound good but show no insight into the actual game - "not needing to be a sheep" or "loads of skills work just fine" generally ended up in people pinging builds with ressurection, healing breeze, troll unguent, final thrust, heal party or any non-UA rez with a Monk, Defy Pain, etc.
It is especially fun because the builds that are better at doing elite hm content have always been those focused in Invicibuilds+spike and that hasn't changed since ursan was nerfed.
Your typical PvE player was still using Searing Flames heroes when others were already running Sabs or Discord.
Then your typical PvE player was running Sabs or Discord, with their N/Rt healers when others were runnin E/Mo Ether renewal healers and finishing slavers and vloxen.
Of course full guild groups were running Shadow Form tanking (or Terra Tanking) with whatver spike.
But I bet you will post a few more generalities about sheep or fotm (as if anyone with all the professions at level 20 is concerned about fotm) instead of any shred of evidence you know more about builds (especially 8 or12 men teambuilds) than "there is loads of skills to choose from".
Also the story of GW1 GvG is filled with examples of FOTM builds winning - ever heard of rawr spike? They won a few months in a row using it and it couldn't be more fotm than that.
It would be interesting to read what builds you used to finish what dungeons/elite areas before the rit buffs.
Or even just post some PvE Warrior builds and see how far you can get from my skills selection in this thread or whatever profession you prefer.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
The difference between my posts and yours is that actually I can detail skills, builds, build names, metagame periods.
Because you can just go to http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page to find the sheep builds used over the years, whereas I would have to have photographic memory of what skill combinations I used over the past 6 years or so.
I believe GW2 has very deep combat mechanics. The reason some disagree is that the game is so accessible and so easy to get into, people mistake that with shallow gameplay.
I have an 80 Engineer which offers more versatility, combo finishers, utility and varied playstyles than most other games have between two different classes.
The amount of controversy and different opinions this thread has created clearly shows that it's a not a black and white issue of depth vs. shallow. The fact that there is a heated debate lends in favor of "depth."
As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.
The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.
The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.
GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.
Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).
Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".
Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?
Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.
Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).
Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.
Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.
That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.
Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.
From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?
I would take GW1's system any day.
Did GW1 have an abundance of skills at launch? I only played for 10's of hours and started with Nighfall, the game just did not grab me I was an L2 junkie at the time.
Yes it did. Add the skills from the following two categories:
In Prophecies, the first GW1 game released, each class has between 72 (mesmer) and 79 (elementalist) skills. Then consider the fact that you have two professions per character and you have about 150 skills to mix and match with.
By the time they got to Nightfall, each of the core professions had about 140 skills, assassins and ritualists had 110, and paragon and dervish had 85. Not to mention the shared PvE skills and faction based skills.
Regarding the previous poster who said only a few builds were viable - yeah that's a lie, only a few builds were popular or overpowered at any one time. That isnt the same as viable.
Again just looking at the numbers of skills mean nothing.
Running an empty skill bar was also a viable way of finishing GW1 PvE.
Apparently loads of people like to gimp themselves.
Next people will post wammos with healing hands and mending...
It is very simple, in any game with limited party sizes if my build out perform yours I get the spot and you get the boot. So only the best builds are viable.
OH come on - HH and MENDING WAMMO WAS DA BOMB!!! It is not as much fun as a W/E with meteor Storm in Jade Quarry lol
The problem was wo the 72 skills that mesmer had in GW1, there were many that were so situational to be useless.
You can go on and on, however it would be repetitive. No matter what spec you play it will be a dps spec, the cc effects are marginal and merely exist to accent DPS which is what GW2 pvp is all about, layers of dps. The boredom factor sets in when you realize that you cannot make a functional healer, CC, Support build that is not really just a DPS build with some perks. You quickly find out after a few weeks of never ending theory crafting and searching other builds online, that you are confined to play, conditions, bunker, roamer or some other Crit heavy build.
Its basically like saying there are countless ways to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, it doesn't really mean you have options. In GW2 if you have a build that even uses another RUNE this is different from the other guy who also plays ranger, you feel like you won a small victory. Slave 48 hours theorty crafting your necromancer only to find out some guy named Clerk already came up with the exact same thing down to the armor and weapon sigils. You of course tried vampirism early on to find out how terrible it was, or some other things that LOOKED really cool. But you ended up with this damn condition build you hate playing, you roll an alt, thinking things will be different with a Mesmer or thief, but no.
Combat feels empty and dull to me, GW2 pvp is not something people give up as a l2p issue its something that you stop doing because you don't hate yourself. Just my opinion maybe, but I played a lot of mmorpgs, GW2 pvp combat is fine the first month or so until the lack of debth really sets in.
Opposed to the awesome PvP MMORPGs where you are CC'ed until you die or CC them until they die or the most healers win.
And fotm was a word specially coined for GW2, right?
In other games all the possible builds are equaly viable and succesful and you are a snowflake!
Healing, dealing damage, supporting and CCing in the same character is boring but spending an entire match/dungeon just healing, ccing, tanking or dealing damage is the pinnacle of diversity and variation.
Oh are you trying to ninja some anti holy trinity arguent in there? The reason I tried GW2 in the first place was the lack of trinity, WvWvW, sPVP and lack of gear grind. The problem is the inflexibility of the so called hybrids. Healing, damage dealing, support and CC are NOT all on an equal footing, as a matter of fact DPS is clearly the king to such an extent a true hybrid is impossible. The average class is not even as flexible as a WOW Shaman and ALL of them have a DPS focus. Snowflake? How about SOME deviation at all. All classes have not only limited weapon options but those weapon skills are all for the most part DPS focussed. Then about 20 skills that are in 4 or so skill types that are bracketed off and your choices dwindle as you further speciallize down the traits.
You act as if everyone is not already spending the entire match match just dealing damage and you are right it certainly isnt the pinnacle of variation. Just because every class has a mandatory heal slot doesn't make them really hybrids, it feels more like a FPS with a med kit honestly. And the chain CCing and healing in WOW is frustrating however, thier idea of CC in GW2 is laughagle, and healing what a few hundred points a tic compared to how much DPS burst.
Tell you what you map the amount of DPS per second ANY class in GW2 can do and put it side by side to any other type of Control, healing, fear, etc that it can do and explain to me how that its balanced.
Comments
The greatest lack of depth ...for me...in GW2 is the WvW.Faction fighting is more like a mob basketball game with how many points you can score with your zerg being the focus.We all get multiple characters to 80.....and this sad feature is what you get.
FOR ME...faction fighting is why I play any mmog.The lack of tactics and strategy in this feature has put me on the sidelines of playing any mmog atm.
You can analize any game and break it down to sound more complicated then it actually is. Which you did here. It's not as in depth as you're making it sound in actual gameplay. It pretty simplistic really, as is most combat in MMO's. I just didn't really care for the weapon skills or combat as much as I though I would. I felt like I was also running around like an idiot. I'm not saying it's bad.. it just wasn't for me and quickly became overly repetative and boring. I'm glad you dig it.
No you can't, especially not in WvW. Maybe against base mobs you can get away with it in lower levels if you're careful. Try that against a Veteran Karka and get back to us.
Hey... I know... enlighten us with your knowledge. Give us an example of this "pattern of key presses" you refer to. That was definitely true in WoW... I was quite adept at the 9-6-9 rotation on my pally tank... but the whole concept is completely invalid in GW2... unless you can, as asked, provide examples...
Oderint, dum metuant.
Yikes, what server you on? You should hop onto Jade Quarry, get in TS and run with an organized group.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Depth?Subtract a lot of skills/buttons and trade 1 for a dodge and walla, GW2. Its very simplistic which, to its credit, doesn't nessisarily mean its bad either. GW2 is a game that practically anyone can jump in and play. Once you have dodge figured out you will find combat is very easy.
Its just not really that complex. The biggest thing is it helps make mobs feel more like 'bosses' with more mechanics being important to note, though in many cases its more trivial and its a small thing.
He means it falls apart for people who enjoy relying on crutches like tanks and healers, and who actually have no idea how to REALLY act as a group.
You arent acting as a group if one person just spams heals and another spams taunts. Thats everyone focusing on their own role and not caring about what the others do. Then when it fails they start the blame game.
In GW2 you have to actually work as a team, and good teamwork is rewarded, being a selfish 'me me me' person is punished. Thats where it falls apart for a lot of these players.
It is what it is. I thin the prolbem stems from the fact, and I will use Rift as an example, in many games there are just too many junk and useless skills. A.Net tried to make all the skills useful but have fewer skills. Not saying they succeeded but that is the idea. I cannot play a game were you have to use macros to use all the skills and have 5-6 skill bars in which 90% of the skills are junk or so situational to be useless.
I agree, in Rift, EQ2 and WoW 95% of your skills get put into 1-3 supermacros. So you essentially end up playing by smashing 1 repeatedly and throwing in a few 2s and 3s as stuff pops up. So challenging!
In GW2 every skill is important, so is attunement / weapon kit / weapon swapping, and dodging. Makes combat a lot more meaningful. To anyone saying the combat is shallow, which MMO beats it? Definitely not any of the WoW or EQ clones, not TSW, definitely not TERA.... so which game has more impressive combat? I would be interested to try it out, honestly.
Vanguard had neat skills and some cool chain / reactive abilities, but that was just about paying attention, not really skill.
Conan had an interesting take on combat, but in the end you just hit your skills and then did a quick combo (that was the same every time) to fire them off. For all intents and purposes they may as well have just had the skills activate with one press.
Or you can break it down and make it more simplisting and boring than it is.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
And thats why I created this thread as I was asking basically is it all flattering to deceive. So what makes it simplistic? At the moment I'm leaning towards it being quite deep as I'm not seeing many explanations as to what makes it truly shallow while many have gone into why they think its quite deep.
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Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.
From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?
I would take GW1's system any day.
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Did GW1 have an abundance of skills at launch? I only played for 10's of hours and started with Nighfall, the game just did not grab me I was an L2 junkie at the time.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
The difference is GW had the Trinity - GW2 does not.
Yes it did. Add the skills from the following two categories:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_core_skills
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_Prophecies_skills
In Prophecies, the first GW1 game released, each class has between 72 (mesmer) and 79 (elementalist) skills. Then consider the fact that you have two professions per character and you have about 150 skills to mix and match with.
By the time they got to Nightfall, each of the core professions had about 140 skills, assassins and ritualists had 110, and paragon and dervish had 85. Not to mention the shared PvE skills and faction based skills.
Regarding the previous poster who said only a few builds were viable - yeah that's a lie, only a few builds were popular or overpowered at any one time. That isnt the same as viable.
Again just looking at the numbers of skills mean nothing.
Running an empty skill bar was also a viable way of finishing GW1 PvE.
Apparently loads of people like to gimp themselves.
Next people will post wammos with healing hands and mending...
It is very simple, in any game with limited party sizes if my build out perform yours I get the spot and you get the boot. So only the best builds are viable.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I'm talking elite hm PvE areas builds.
PvP after the first year or so was defined by what was nerfed or buffed by anet or not,
The smite boon nerf for pvp was hilarious - it could have read unusable in pvp and be more useful that what it actually was.
Shall we talk about the presence of Necromancers, Assassins, Ritualists, Paragons and Elementalists in GvG? Or better the residual usage of these professions aside specific time frames cause by skills imbalance?
Dual professions was one of the worst mistakes because it meant many skills were better used by professions with superior primary attributes
The way enery management skills kept being nerfed because monks could use it, the way monk smite skills had to be nerfed becused mesmers were using them, rangers abusing daggers, blood spike, mesmer spike, ranger with ritualist weapon spike, the time GvG became a farming NPCs game with VoD change, the turtle play paragons allowed at nightfall releasem etc, etc. Funny times, but hey 150 skills...
What other professions skills do you want to use for a warrior?
You wamt to use daggers? Or scythe (was viable before the derrvish revamp and in fact the warrior was better with it than the dervish making the dervish useless for a PvE elite area team). The only non warrior skill I can see a warrior use is the assassin dearh's charge on thr Manly Spike teams.
You guys just don't get what viable is in GW1 and GW2 context.
GW1 and GW2 isn't about failling or not, it is about how fast you can do it.
A build that takes 1 hour to finish something other takes 10 minutes isn't viable.
Additionally if a profession slows down the run speed, it isn't viable.
So, yeah, indeed a PvE warrior is around 12 skills + PvE only skills, and that is allowing for builds that use heroes.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
GW1 didn't have the trinity.
It had healers (the best were the ones that prevented damage instead of red bars up) but it had no tanks.
Unfortunately it had Invicibuilds that Anet left on so PUGs could actually do stuff.
The most degenerate type of play with instant spikes that decimated a bazzillions mobs.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
sorry about that, seems I'm not allowed to have an opinion about GW2 combat...
he must be a GW2 fan boi, the mod I mean.
No, some people just didn't feel the need to be a sheep. Baaa, baaaa, baaaa.
Plenty of skill combinations worked well, not everyone had to rely on the current FOTM builds to get through the elite dungeons.
Not using typical builds in PvP made it easy to smash the FOTM sheep as well.
The difference between my posts and yours is that actually I can detail skills, builds, build names, metagame periods.
Your posts on the other hand are filled with generalities, that might sound good but show no insight into the actual game - "not needing to be a sheep" or "loads of skills work just fine" generally ended up in people pinging builds with ressurection, healing breeze, troll unguent, final thrust, heal party or any non-UA rez with a Monk, Defy Pain, etc.
It is especially fun because the builds that are better at doing elite hm content have always been those focused in Invicibuilds+spike and that hasn't changed since ursan was nerfed.
Your typical PvE player was still using Searing Flames heroes when others were already running Sabs or Discord.
Then your typical PvE player was running Sabs or Discord, with their N/Rt healers when others were runnin E/Mo Ether renewal healers and finishing slavers and vloxen.
Of course full guild groups were running Shadow Form tanking (or Terra Tanking) with whatver spike.
But I bet you will post a few more generalities about sheep or fotm (as if anyone with all the professions at level 20 is concerned about fotm) instead of any shred of evidence you know more about builds (especially 8 or12 men teambuilds) than "there is loads of skills to choose from".
Also the story of GW1 GvG is filled with examples of FOTM builds winning - ever heard of rawr spike? They won a few months in a row using it and it couldn't be more fotm than that.
It would be interesting to read what builds you used to finish what dungeons/elite areas before the rit buffs.
Or even just post some PvE Warrior builds and see how far you can get from my skills selection in this thread or whatever profession you prefer.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Because you can just go to http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page to find the sheep builds used over the years, whereas I would have to have photographic memory of what skill combinations I used over the past 6 years or so.
I believe GW2 has very deep combat mechanics. The reason some disagree is that the game is so accessible and so easy to get into, people mistake that with shallow gameplay.
I have an 80 Engineer which offers more versatility, combo finishers, utility and varied playstyles than most other games have between two different classes.
I recently started playing a Guardian. Check this guide out https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/guardian/Guide-PVE-Guardian-101-A-Beginner-s-Text and tell me whether or not Guardian mechanics are shallow. BTW... copy and paste the guide and you will see it's 50+ pages and its only as to ONE class in GW2. Guess what, it's a BEGINNERS Guide! Talk about depth.
The amount of controversy and different opinions this thread has created clearly shows that it's a not a black and white issue of depth vs. shallow. The fact that there is a heated debate lends in favor of "depth."
OH come on - HH and MENDING WAMMO WAS DA BOMB!!! It is not as much fun as a W/E with meteor Storm in Jade Quarry lol
The problem was wo the 72 skills that mesmer had in GW1, there were many that were so situational to be useless.
Oh are you trying to ninja some anti holy trinity arguent in there? The reason I tried GW2 in the first place was the lack of trinity, WvWvW, sPVP and lack of gear grind. The problem is the inflexibility of the so called hybrids. Healing, damage dealing, support and CC are NOT all on an equal footing, as a matter of fact DPS is clearly the king to such an extent a true hybrid is impossible. The average class is not even as flexible as a WOW Shaman and ALL of them have a DPS focus. Snowflake? How about SOME deviation at all. All classes have not only limited weapon options but those weapon skills are all for the most part DPS focussed. Then about 20 skills that are in 4 or so skill types that are bracketed off and your choices dwindle as you further speciallize down the traits.
You act as if everyone is not already spending the entire match match just dealing damage and you are right it certainly isnt the pinnacle of variation. Just because every class has a mandatory heal slot doesn't make them really hybrids, it feels more like a FPS with a med kit honestly. And the chain CCing and healing in WOW is frustrating however, thier idea of CC in GW2 is laughagle, and healing what a few hundred points a tic compared to how much DPS burst.
Tell you what you map the amount of DPS per second ANY class in GW2 can do and put it side by side to any other type of Control, healing, fear, etc that it can do and explain to me how that its balanced.