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I Hate Freemium

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  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil
     

    Of course you can read my post to know that I have no disagreement with free market. I also never said that I demand everything I want.    I am simply stating that I don't like turning all games into services because it is non-beneficial for me. 

     

    That is fair. It certainly is your perogative to dislike a particular form of business arrangement, as a personal preference.

    I know. That's why I was surprised that you brought big guns at me.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    Part of my astonishment at some posters has nothing to with freemium, themeparks and such debates. It is that they seem to start from the position that the gaming industry is perfect, cannot be critiqued and has never been better. This year was better than last year and no doubt to them, next year will be better than this year. This is why I think of them as wearing a rather rosy pair of spectacles when it comes to gaming.

    The DLC at day one issue shows that the gaming company withheld content from the game you brought at launch. They kept back what you had paid for. This is not development of extra content it is dividing up the content of a game you have made and keeping back some slices, expecting players to fork out more from day one.

    Once again though I am sure some posters will not get this, as it shows the gaming industry in a bad light and for them the industry can do no wrong.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot

    Part of my astonishment at some posters has nothing to with freemium, themeparks and such debates. It is that they seem to start from the position that the gaming industry is perfect, cannot be critiqued and has never been better. This year was better than last year and no doubt to them, next year will be better than this year. This is why I think of them as wearing a rather rosy pair of spectacles when it comes to gaming.

    The DLC at day one issue shows that the gaming company withheld content from the game you brought at launch. They kept back what you had paid for. This is not development of extra content it is dividing up the content of a game you have made and keeping back some slices, expecting players to fork out more from day one.

    Once again though I am sure some posters will not get this, as it shows the gaming industry in a bad light and for them the industry can do no wrong.

    Don't know if you are talking about me.

    However, there is a difference from "being perfect", and that it is a "normal" state of things.

    Sure i would like cheaper games, more games to my liking, and so on .. but the point is that the free market  is working as it should be. The game industry has freedom to sell stuff as they see fit, and you have the freedom to use (or not use) their products as you see fit.

    There is no such thing as "perfect". It is a matter of preference. The industry want all your money. They can't have that. You want free games. You can't have that. Whatever you get .. in between the two extreme ... is how the free market operates.

    The concept of "right" and "wrong" simply don't apply here, as long as they are not breaking laws and commiting fraud. It is only whether a particularly person like it enough to do business.

  • worldalphaworldalpha Milton, ONPosts: 403Member
    Freemium is here to stay for awhile.  For a small MMO to get a following, Freemium is about the only option.  If I could sub I would.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Part of my astonishment at some posters has nothing to with freemium, themeparks and such debates. It is that they seem to start from the position that the gaming industry is perfect, cannot be critiqued and has never been better.

    Can you link to the posts that you derived that from. I would normally ask you to link to the posts that say that, but I think we both know no such posts exist.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    Just taking these from a few of the threads we have atm: If you think there is nothing wrong with themeparks, wanting to be a content locust, Freemium, DLC on day one and instanced PvP trash; then I think it is alright to say some posters on here think the industry is perfect. I don’t really think I need to cite posts when we see the same posters coming back again and again with never a word against any of this.

    I am not saying you should think all of that is wrong, I am saying it is a blinkered view when you think it is all fine. I put this forward as a counter to those who say all we do is complain. All some do is find everything wonderful or a non-issue.

    I really do not think this is a question about a free market. At every stage of gaming history we have had a free market. Gaming has been influenced by innovative founders, good and bad business practices and corporate philosophy but the free market has not shaped games in a like manner. It has simply supported those games and fads which make the most money.

    I appreciate a small MMO can be difficult funding wise. But you can still play it two ways. You can set prices like they did in Allods, leaving players thinking they had put the decimal point in the wrong place. Or try for something on a fairer basis. Good luck to anyone trying to get a MMO of the ground with today’s locust gamers.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    There is a very big difference between people thinking that there is nothing inherently wrong with themeparks, dlc on day one and freemium content and people thinking the industry is perfect.  To make that stretch requires a pretty incredible logic leap.   I don't believe anyone has stated or even implied that the industry is perfect, however many have stated they like where it is now and where it is going.

    Whether someone is content locus, and intance pvp is trash is entirely subjective so not worth a comment on that.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Just taking these from a few of the threads we have atm: If you think there is nothing wrong with themeparks, wanting to be a content locust, Freemium, DLC on day one and instanced PvP trash; then I think it is alright to say some posters on here think the industry is perfect. I don’t really think I need to cite posts when we see the same posters coming back again and again with never a word against any of this.

    I am not saying you should think all of that is wrong, I am saying it is a blinkered view when you think it is all fine. I put this forward as a counter to those who say all we do is complain. All some do is find everything wonderful or a non-issue.

    And the question again, is where are these posts where people are saying all of those things together are fine?

    "Part of my astonishment at some posters has nothing to with freemium, themeparks and such debates. It is that they seem to start from the position that the gaming industry is perfect, cannot be critiqued and has never been better." - Scot

    Just interested in how you got the impression anyone felt that way.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    Well look at VengeSunsoar and nariusseldon’s posts. To them non of the issues held any weight, I am just picking those two out as they did reply to my post.

    Simply saying you want to see more of the same but cheaper means that apart from pricing the gaming industry is at an all time zenith. Clearly that is pretty near damn perfect.

    If you think nothing is wrong with the gaming industry on any of those issues, then you think the industry is perfect. Here is my definition of perfect - nothing needs to change. So if you think all those issues had no weight you think the industry does not wish to change one iota. Now I could be wrong, please tell us about what you see as a bugbear in the industry currently.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Well look at VengeSunsoar and nariusseldon’s posts. To them non of the issues held any weight, I am just picking those two out as they did reply to my post.

    Simply saying you want to see more of the same but cheaper means that apart from pricing the gaming industry is at an all time zenith. Clearly that is pretty near damn perfect.

    If you think nothing is wrong with the gaming industry on any of those issues, then you think the industry is perfect. Here is my definition of perfect - nothing needs to change. So if you think all those issues had no weight you think the industry does not wish to change one iota. Now I could be wrong, please tell us about what you see as a bugbear in the industry currently.

    It seems like you are under the assumption that if they aren't actively complaining on message boards about things they don't like and they have little or no problems with the things you don't like, then they see the industry as being perfect.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Well look at VengeSunsoar and nariusseldon’s posts. To them non of the issues held any weight, I am just picking those two out as they did reply to my post.

    Simply saying you want to see more of the same but cheaper means that apart from pricing the gaming industry is at an all time zenith. Clearly that is pretty near damn perfect.

    If you think nothing is wrong with the gaming industry on any of those issues, then you think the industry is perfect. Here is my definition of perfect - nothing needs to change. So if you think all those issues had no weight you think the industry does not wish to change one iota. Now I could be wrong, please tell us about what you see as a bugbear in the industry currently.

     Um no.  Once again those are very different issues and requires a fantastic leap in logic to bridge.  I like current games and would like to see more of them.  I don't mind dlc on day one, especially if I know what I'm getting into before I do it, I don't mind freemium...

    That does not mean I think the genre is perfect.  There are many things I would like to see - even more variety in payment options, more skill based, more puzzles, I like longevity but dislike grind (that will take some creative thinking), I like housing brick and board style...

    The industry is far from perfect however I still like current games and don't have an issue with the companies providing more of them.

    edit - and personally I don't care about cheaper.  Actually I could care less about the payment model.  To me that is the least important aspect of my game and has nothing to do with my immersion or enjoyment. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot

    Well look at VengeSunsoar and nariusseldon’s posts. To them non of the issues held any weight, I am just picking those two out as they did reply to my post.

    Simply saying you want to see more of the same but cheaper means that apart from pricing the gaming industry is at an all time zenith. Clearly that is pretty near damn perfect.

    If you think nothing is wrong with the gaming industry on any of those issues, then you think the industry is perfect. Here is my definition of perfect - nothing needs to change. So if you think all those issues had no weight you think the industry does not wish to change one iota. Now I could be wrong, please tell us about what you see as a bugbear in the industry currently.

    What is a "bugbear" in the industry? Rigid pricing structure like a fix box price, and then sub fees. Sub fees are very inflexible and force player commitment. F2P is a much better model, and thankfully it is taken hold.

    Another "bugbear"? Artificial high price (like $60 games) because of inefficient distribution. Do you know that retailers like Gamestop can take 1/3 of the price? Direct distribution like Steam should help ... but price is still equal (like a new AAA game is still $60 on steam) for now. Hopefully that will change.

    Indie games, OTOH, are priced accoding to value & demand.

    Who says the industry should not change? Just not the stuff you want change.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    I don’t see this as being something where if you do not agree with me on every issue the industry must be perfect. I am not that bothered about PvP trash for example, I prefer faction based open world PvP, but like instanced PvP for a quick bash. I just grabbed a few current themes, I was not putting forward a manifesto.

    Fair enough if you want MMO’s that are skill based, more puzzles and housing. We don’t get those in many MMO’s, that shows you want things to change. You shy away from questioning  the current state of the genre though. For me there is just too much that is off kilter for me not to question the state of gameplay. Not sure what board style is, board gaming?

    Some games are overpriced, I don’t get concerned too much about that, retailers need to make a profit after all. F2P has turned MMO’s downmarket, I see no benefits to that. I have played the odd F2P game, PS2 currently, I always end up thinking it would have been better as a sub game. I am a fan of the indie game concept but it is harder to produce a quality game with fewer resources and the content locusts which are the baulk of the player base are utterly unforgiving. But this is all about finance, nothing about gameplay, if you don’t think gameplay needs to change at all then you think the gaming industry is nigh on perfect. After all the industry is about making games.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot

    I don’t see this as being something where if you do not agree with me on every issue the industry must be perfect. I am not that bothered about PvP trash for example, I prefer faction based open world PvP, but like instanced PvP for a quick bash. I just grabbed a few current themes, I was not putting forward a manifesto.

    Fair enough if you want MMO’s that are skill based, more puzzles and housing. We don’t get those in many MMO’s, that shows you want things to change. You shy away from questioning  the current state of the genre though. For me there is just too much that is off kilter for me not to question the state of gameplay. Not sure what board style is, board gaming?

    Some games are overpriced, I don’t get concerned too much about that, retailers need to make a profit after all. F2P has turned MMO’s downmarket, I see no benefits to that. I have played the odd F2P game, PS2 currently, I always end up thinking it would have been better as a sub game. I am a fan of the indie game concept but it is harder to produce a quality game with fewer resources and the content locusts which are the baulk of the player base are utterly unforgiving. But this is all about finance, nothing about gameplay, if you don’t think gameplay needs to change at all then you think the gaming industry is nigh on perfect. After all the industry is about making games.

    So we differ in HOW the industry is imperfect. But you can't claim that i think it is perfect. I just posted a list of things i like to see changed.

    And we differ in opinions of WHAT need to be changed. Business-wise, i like to see MORE F2P .. because it allows less commitment, more game hopping. I am sure you disagree.

    On the gameplay side, i like to see more innvoation in blending MMO with other genre, you want pure old school MMOs. Don't get me wrong, i hate easy-questing gameplay too ... but i think the fix is more actiony diablo 3 type combat, with difficulty levers .. instead of going back to group based kill-any-mob to level gameplay.

     

  • Salio69Salio69 under a rock, FLPosts: 428Member

    Freemium has pretty much ruined the genre for me. Even games that were just Sub & Play are all implementing some sort of cash shop into them. Not just MMOs but single player games in general are starting to add pay-for items. Problem is so bad, that out of the 13 years I've been playing MMOs, I actually found myself looking for another hobby for the first time, ever. Not for boredem, not for doing the same crap over again, but I've grown quite sick and tired of being a part of win with your pockets instead of win with your skills.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    I don’t see this as being something where if you do not agree with me on every issue the industry must be perfect. I am not that bothered about PvP trash for example, I prefer faction based open world PvP, but like instanced PvP for a quick bash. I just grabbed a few current themes, I was not putting forward a manifesto.

    Fair enough if you want MMO’s that are skill based, more puzzles and housing. We don’t get those in many MMO’s, that shows you want things to change. You shy away from questioning  the current state of the genre though. For me there is just too much that is off kilter for me not to question the state of gameplay. Not sure what board style is, board gaming?

    Some games are overpriced, I don’t get concerned too much about that, retailers need to make a profit after all. F2P has turned MMO’s downmarket, I see no benefits to that. I have played the odd F2P game, PS2 currently, I always end up thinking it would have been better as a sub game. I am a fan of the indie game concept but it is harder to produce a quality game with fewer resources and the content locusts which are the baulk of the player base are utterly unforgiving. But this is all about finance, nothing about gameplay, if you don’t think gameplay needs to change at all then you think the gaming industry is nigh on perfect. After all the industry is about making games.

     I just dont' see a point in complaining about them.  IMO that does absolutely no good.  I do not think complaining has any positives at all.  Now making a point and proposing a reasonable solution is fine and good but complaining, no does nothing.

    I take a look at what the games offer, if it looks interesting I'll ry it.  If it doesn't I'll do something else, build another desk, work on a ship, play a different game read a book.  Thats pretty much the approach I take with everything.

    If I can do something about it I will, if there is nothing constructive I can do about it then I don't sweat it. 

    edit - brick and board is referring to a housing style of building like in the EQ2 Tenebrous Island or even CoH where I can choose the rooms and build from the inside, where I decide what I build and how it looks.  They provide materials but I choose what the wall looks like, where it goes, how it bends....  so very much like in the world using bricks and boards to build a house. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    I am all for mixing formats, PS2 is a “MMO” that mixes formats.  PS2 is the re-release of an old idea but mixing of formats is so rare that you can bring out an old mixed format with up to date graphics and it is a novelty. That is a change of gameplay you are looking for so I certainly accept that as an industry criticism.

    I don’t want pure old school MMO’s, not sure how many times you have to say that until posters believe you on here. It is very likely that the elements of gameplay I would want would contain too many from old school MMO’s for some posters. But that is bound to happen, just as some posters would think I want too little.

    Salio69, this has been a concern for so many of us. Originally we said F2P was bad for MMO’s, but the industry hardly took any notice. You might point out hybrid payment  models as an attempt to address our concerns about F2P. But once you have a cash shop the push to game changing items and pay to win seems just a matter of time. I still support Turbines payment model, but it has got worse as time has passed.

    Not trying to convert you VengeSunsoar, but you do realise housing is now so down the list on the priority of a modern easyMMO it only comes above the likes of Roleplaying? It is just one of many parts of the open world that was put in the trash bin.

    I do think it is important to voice your concerns, complain, whatever you want to call it. What we say does get back to those who make the decisions. They rarely take notice, but then that’s just the same as in the rest of life.

  • hfztthfztt GlostrupPosts: 840Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    No wonder you are fine with pay to win and day 1 DLC. Explains everything. Either that, or you are a Grade A troll...who the heck would be fine with a developer cutting out content and releasing it as Day 1 DLC?

    Appels and oranges.

    Day 1 DLC can make good sense, if its free for those who buy on day one.

    The issue here is that games are bein resonld in GameStop and the likes. This helps you make your money bakc, and it earns money for the reseller. The publisher gets left out though. Day 1 DLC (again the type that is free for the orginal purhaser of the game, as in included as bonus content) helps the publisher to also make a few $ each time the game is resold, as those second hand buyers are likely to also buy this DLC.

    When done like that, its a fair messure.

    Day 1 DLC that is not free for original purchasers, now that is greed...

     

  • hfztthfztt GlostrupPosts: 840Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Salio69

    Freemium has pretty much ruined the genre for me. Even games that were just Sub & Play are all implementing some sort of cash shop into them. Not just MMOs but single player games in general are starting to add pay-for items. Problem is so bad, that out of the 13 years I've been playing MMOs, I actually found myself looking for another hobby for the first time, ever. Not for boredem, not for doing the same crap over again, but I've grown quite sick and tired of being a part of win with your pockets instead of win with your skills.

    He, he. Its kind of like in the movie "The Incrdibles": "If everyone is super, no one is".

    The p2w model only lets people pay to win if a minority is actually doing it. If the majority is paying to win, you have effectively just upped the price of the game and the most skillfull people are still winning. Messes with your head.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    I am all for mixing formats, PS2 is a “MMO” that mixes formats.  PS2 is the re-release of an old idea but mixing of formats is so rare that you can bring out an old mixed format with up to date graphics and it is a novelty. That is a change of gameplay you are looking for so I certainly accept that as an industry criticism.

    I don’t want pure old school MMO’s, not sure how many times you have to say that until posters believe you on here. It is very likely that the elements of gameplay I would want would contain too many from old school MMO’s for some posters. But that is bound to happen, just as some posters would think I want too little.

    Salio69, this has been a concern for so many of us. Originally we said F2P was bad for MMO’s, but the industry hardly took any notice. You might point out hybrid payment  models as an attempt to address our concerns about F2P. But once you have a cash shop the push to game changing items and pay to win seems just a matter of time. I still support Turbines payment model, but it has got worse as time has passed.

    Not trying to convert you VengeSunsoar, but you do realise housing is now so down the list on the priority of a modern easyMMO it only comes above the likes of Roleplaying? It is just one of many parts of the open world that was put in the trash bin.

    I do think it is important to voice your concerns, complain, whatever you want to call it. What we say does get back to those who make the decisions. They rarely take notice, but then that’s just the same as in the rest of life.

     Housing was never big in MMO's, only a few ever had them, only a few have them now.  Same with roleplaying.  Very few games ever had features that promoted roleplaying, it was almost entirely up to our own imagination, same as now. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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