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Hero Engine 2 $99/year ~ Indy MMOs

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  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by asmkm22

    Second, significantly modifying engine source code is not at all trivial or quick to impliment.  Could Bioware have significatly modified the engine source code to better suite their needs?  Of course, and they did plenty of development on it as it stands.  What they didn't do was fundementally rewrite how the engine loads and renders zones.

    And modifying how the game engine works is harder if you weren't the one that made it in the first place to already understand how it works.  And if you've got a bunch of assets already in place that assume the old way and will break if you change it.

    But still, how do you know that they didn't change it?  There have been a lot of changes to my game engine that I've made that didn't have any obvious effect on gameplay, but involved some very fundamental reorganizations under the hood.  At one point, I changed how tree branches were set up so as to involve 3 calls to a trig function, rather than an average of 24, but still pulled from the same distribution as before so that there wasn't any obvious change.  (This change alone shaved about a full second off of the game loading time--which is significant for a game that now takes about 3 seconds to load.)

    I don't know for sure that they didn't change it.  What I do know, is that there would have been no reason to change it if they were just going to design the game maps with the limitationsi n mind anyway, which they did.  I can go map by map and see places where something exists for the sake of breaking LoS to another area, or how outdoor maps are connected through vast empty no-mans-land sections that kill you for entering, or how deep water was avoided (Hero Engine deals with water pretty poorly, especially in the transition from in and out of it).

    If they went to the trouble of changing the engine to support a less restrictive map design, then they forgot to design their maps with less restrictions.  That's all I know.

    To the contrary, you might make a major overhaul to get 20% or 50% or some such better performance for the way your particular data is structured.  You can use that up to draw more and further away, but it's not enough to eliminate restrictions on what you can draw entirely.  A 500% performance improvement wouldn't be enough to eliminate all of the -restrictions.  Nor would 5000%, in spite of probably being impossible to achieve.

    I'm sorry, but your response makes no sense in relation to my comment...

    You make me like charity

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon

    I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but most engine makers have a non-commercial version of their engines so you can at least experiment and see whats what in making a game.

     

    http://www.unrealengine.com/udk/

    http://mycryengine.com/

    http://source.valvesoftware.com/sourcesdk/sourceu.php

     

    Now that I've read the thread they have been mentioned but heres the links anyway. image

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    If you think that SWTOR has game engine problems using a heavily-customized version of the Hero Engine, then you should see the complete train wreck that it would have been if they used an uncustomized version of the Hero Engine.

    Game engines are designed to do particular things.  If what you want to do is something that the game engine is designed to handle, great.  But as soon as you want to do something that the game engine designers didn't anticipate, you've basically got three options:  modify the game engine, find some roundabout way of cramming it into the game engine, or abandon that idea.

    If you've got your own game engine, you take option 1 and don't think much of it.  If you're using an off-the-shelf game engine, option 1 is not available to you.  Option 2 is sometimes unavailable to you, and is likely to carry a large performance hit even if you can do it.  It's nearly guaranteed to be more work than option 1 would have been.  If you're using an off-the-shelf game engine, then get used to taking option 3:  abandoning most of your creative ideas because they don't fit the game engine.

    There seems to be this mystique that game engines are really hard to create.  They're not.  You do need a competent programmer with a decent background in mathematics (linear algebra is critical for anything 3D, and multivariable calculus is important, too).  But you'll need that in order to make a bunch of other things in your game work, too.  Trying to license a game engine as a way to get around needing to have anyone competent working on your project isn't likely to end well.

    The point is for small projects, not the fact that SWTOR used a modified version of hero.  I code myself, and I understand the merits of writing your own code to do exactly what you want/need it to do.

    However I completely disagree with you on it being easy to write your own 3D game engine, especially for a small indy dev team.  Besides the whole 3D world, lighting, sound and physics, there's netcode, weather, APIs and many other systems that would need to be put in from scratch.  If making a good 3D engine was easy, the market wouldn't need engines like Hero, Unity, Unreal, iD Tech, Source, etc.  Indy projects like Greed Monger and The Repopulation are using someone else's engine for a reason, and a lot of higher-end 3D games are licensing engines from companies that already did most of the hard work.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member
    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
    Originally posted by bishbosh
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal
    Originally posted by bishbosh

    I have researched quite a few game engines because i am currently looking into making my own casual multiplayer game. hero engine is basically a toy to play around with for people who arent really serious about making games for money.

    high quality large scale mmorpgs/games do not work well with one solution fits all stuff like hero engine. im sorry but thats the way it is. 

    hero engine uses some weird hero script which probably doesnt give the developer much control over anything and it probably runs slow as shit. 

    the whole hero cloud server crap is bullshit. no decent mmorpg or online game will run on servers which they have little control over. 

    if the developer doesnt have control over server-client interaction and the mulitplayer code, developer cannot guarantee stability, no hacks , no lag etcc etc

     

    if you want to make a big huge mmorpg, you probably cant . stop dreaming.... you would need to build your own complex game engine or pay $500k-$1000k for a proprietary game engine which you would then heavily modify...

     

    if you are making a smaller game make your own primittive game engine or use unity3d

     

    mmorpgs are a big thing and you need large amounts of capital, experience, skills and manpower to make them.

    oH REALLY!  I have my degree in Game design and work as a Dev this is a total  lie, there are plenty of games out there that use Hero and alot of the other Known engines.

     

    If you write your own ENGINE great but your a fool,  Most that do fail , they spend to much money on building it and time and then its out of date, if its small scale great go for it. But the way the industry is going, soon you will barely need programmers.... Heck now you barely do besides for Networking and some advance AI, etc..... By the way Programming and Scripting are two different things.....you can get alot more work done at a faster rate with the current Engines, I have worked With Hero, UDK, Unreal there is a difference, Unity , Cry 2 and 3. Plus many many more, to sit there and say this to funny, right now I work with a company that uses Hero and its an MMo. Do your research and you will know which ones use it....

     

    Unity also can make a MMo and do fine, its great for IOS and such but just as good with Mmo's heck Unreal can do MMo's it can be done and has, I would not advise it since there are better ones for MMo's Hero being one, but its a great engine.

     

    Funny post, I love when gamers think... They know about Game Design when they have no clue..

    a degree in game design? is that even a real degree? sorry but respectable universaties dont offer game design degrees...btw im going into my final year of an engineering degree (a proper real mans degree with maths and technology, not some painting arts crap which your can learn on youtube) 

    $50 your mmo will fail or it wont even come into frution. im guessing your company is a bunch of friends and you guys think you can make a mmo. good luck with that. 

    you are clearly biased as you are already locked into development with hero engine. has repopulation even been released? 

    writing your own engine is foolish? this is the most dumb thing i have heard. how about you have a look at what happens in the real world. most big games have been built of in house engines custom made for that game. diablo, starcraft, warcraft, WoW, gw2, battlefield, CoD, halflife even indie games such as minecraft have their own custom engine. wtf are you smoking? 

    no serious mmorpg dev or businessman will use these hobby toy engines.

    1. first of all UDK/hero engine ask for ~30% of your profits.... that is a huge amount of money. get a proprietary license and pay the ~ < $1 mil fee once off and get access to source code etc etc (i would buy unreal over hero ; track record, superior tech etc)

    2. without access to source code you wont have much control over how the game engine works and your game will suck

     

    I'm sorry, but you're going to talk about how much you know about game development, then in the same statement recommend Unreal for an mmo?

    Now you've gone and lost the plot. Unreal is NOT a good engine for mmos.

    You cannot make large open spaces without sufering instability, and it cannot handle large amounts of people online at the same time.

    See APB for an example of an Unreal mmo. Even better, see Mortal Online.

    tera online runs of unreal engine. one of the smoothest, highest fps mmorpgs i have played while also having excellent graphics. I was getting higher fps then gw2 and rift on tera. unreal in the form of UDK is not good for mmorpgs the unreal engine including source code is excellent for any type of game.

    i dont think you really understand what a game engine is or how game related software works. i dont think there is any game engine out there which has good built in multiplayer. developers write their own multipler server client software and generally use the game engine for renedering, physics, creating the game world. multiplayer by nature has to be written speficially for each game if you want to optimise server load, prevent hacks, compensate for latency, minimise lag etc etc...

    my whole point is that many engines offer built in multiplayer solutions (eg unity, hero engine, unreal) but no serious game developer uses these built in solutions because they suck.

  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member
    Originally posted by wowclones
    Originally posted by bishbosh
    Originally posted by wowclones
    Originally posted by bishbosh

    I have researched quite a few game engines because i am currently looking into making my own casual multiplayer game. hero engine is basically a toy to play around with for people who arent really serious about making games for money.

    high quality large scale mmorpgs/games do not work well with one solution fits all stuff like hero engine. im sorry but thats the way it is. 

    hero engine uses some weird hero script which probably doesnt give the developer much control over anything and it probably runs slow as shit. 

    the whole hero cloud server crap is bullshit. no decent mmorpg or online game will run on servers which they have little control over. 

    if the developer doesnt have control over server-client interaction and the mulitplayer code, developer cannot guarantee stability, no hacks , no lag etcc etc

     

    if you want to make a big huge mmorpg, you probably cant . stop dreaming.... you would need to build your own complex game engine or pay $500k-$1000k for a proprietary game engine which you would then heavily modify...

     

    if you are making a smaller game make your own primittive game engine or use unity3d

     

    mmorpgs are a big thing and you need large amounts of capital, experience, skills and manpower to make them.

    man you have no idea what you are talking about lol. no offense, but you need to reseach more, use Hero for a few years and come back and post something educated. truely sad. 

    can u list a game which uses hero engine non propriatary?

    3 hero engine games that i know -

    dominus - shutdown before release

    faxion - shutdown shortly after release (i actually tried this one and performance was utter crap despite low res low polygon gfx)

    swtor - runs like crap despite ageing gfx and heavy instancing, heavily criticised game for unoriginality and poor performance, switched to f2p

     

    do you honestly think heroengine will pay for whatever your bandwidth costs are for $99/ year once your game is released and pay for server maint with this measly amount of money? no they wont because hero engine sucks and they know only retards who think making an mmorpg weekend leisurely affair.

    the engine is easy to use, fast content creation and very appealing -- it designed to lure noobs who think they can make an mmorpg into paying $99/year. hero engine people know these mmorpgs will never materialise. this is why proper companies by proprietary licenses which cost undisclosedly large amounts.

    You are digging yourself a deeper hole, your post are growing more ignorant by the count.  Not sure what you are trying to prove but your points couldn't be more far off then they are right now. There are a handful of games using HeroEngine in development. The engine just became affordable to the indie 2 years ago, it takes longer than that to build an mmo genius. Dominus shutdown due to lack of funding, has nothing to do with Hero. Tor runs fine on my computer, not sure what you are talikng about, try upgrading your rig. Faxion Online would have been crap in any engine, ugly models, concept and lore. The Repopulation is using Hero, Visions of Zosimos, PathFinder Online and many other. Grow up, just because you didn't have the brain power to use Hero doesn't mean it's a bad engine, you just don't know how to use it.

    haha brainpower to use hero engine? hero engine is one of the easiest engines to use. its a toy.

    what kind of serious developer gives away 35% of his profits for use of an engine?

    what kind of developer lets a 3rd party service provider manage their servers?

     

    the whole idea of a low budget 3d open world mmorpg is stupid. hero engine doesnt make this idea feasible, it simply profits off the stupidity of people who think this idea is feasible.

     

    every serious game developer using a 3rd party game engine buys a license for an undisclosedly large amount of money with full access to source code and fuck ton of support.  if you are buying a proprietary license why would you buy hero engine when there is cryengine, unreal, havoc, source, gamebryo <-- a.k.a engines with history of success?

    you have 0 examples of games produced using hero engine (non proprietary) and those that use proprietary suck bad . who knows if it is the engine or the fail devs? hero engine is a risky and costly venture and therefore it sucks.

     

    point with faxion and swtor is they both ran/run very poor framerates for their graphics. compare with tera (running on unreal engine).

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    If you think that SWTOR has game engine problems using a heavily-customized version of the Hero Engine, then you should see the complete train wreck that it would have been if they used an uncustomized version of the Hero Engine.

    Game engines are designed to do particular things.  If what you want to do is something that the game engine is designed to handle, great.  But as soon as you want to do something that the game engine designers didn't anticipate, you've basically got three options:  modify the game engine, find some roundabout way of cramming it into the game engine, or abandon that idea.

    If you've got your own game engine, you take option 1 and don't think much of it.  If you're using an off-the-shelf game engine, option 1 is not available to you.  Option 2 is sometimes unavailable to you, and is likely to carry a large performance hit even if you can do it.  It's nearly guaranteed to be more work than option 1 would have been.  If you're using an off-the-shelf game engine, then get used to taking option 3:  abandoning most of your creative ideas because they don't fit the game engine.

    There seems to be this mystique that game engines are really hard to create.  They're not.  You do need a competent programmer with a decent background in mathematics (linear algebra is critical for anything 3D, and multivariable calculus is important, too).  But you'll need that in order to make a bunch of other things in your game work, too.  Trying to license a game engine as a way to get around needing to have anyone competent working on your project isn't likely to end well.

    The point is for small projects, not the fact that SWTOR used a modified version of hero.  I code myself, and I understand the merits of writing your own code to do exactly what you want/need it to do.

    However I completely disagree with you on it being easy to write your own 3D game engine, especially for a small indy dev team.  Besides the whole 3D world, lighting, sound and physics, there's netcode, weather, APIs and many other systems that would need to be put in from scratch.  If making a good 3D engine was easy, the market wouldn't need engines like Hero, Unity, Unreal, iD Tech, Source, etc.  Indy projects like Greed Monger and The Repopulation are using someone else's engine for a reason, and a lot of higher-end 3D games are licensing engines from companies that already did most of the hard work.

    Have you tried it?  I have.  And I'm telling you, it's a lot easier than I expected, though you do need a strong math background for it, which is something that most programmers don't have.  But then, you'll need a strong math background to do a lot of other things well.  A game engine won't automatically play balance skills for you, and relying on reading forum whining won't get the job done, either.

    I haven't done sound or networking code yet, though Java has built-in capabilities that I'll use.  At the moment, I'm taking the view that if everyone and his neighbor's dog could do sound a decade ago, then I can probably figure out how to do it today.  Meanwhile, the networking code absolutely must be customized to fit the exact data your game needs to send and take into account how time-sensitive various things are or else it will be terrible.

    As for 3D APIs, you use either Direct3D or else OpenGL.  It takes a few weeks to learn either one, but most of the graphical things that games commonly do that seem like they should be hard are handled automatically by the API.

    Now, if it's a really small project where you're trying to make a game on a $10,000 budget, then yeah, you want to license a game engine rather than creating your own.  But if you've got a $1 million budget, it doesn't cost that much to have one person spend a few months to create a 3D graphics engine that does exactly what you want it to do.

  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    If you think that SWTOR has game engine problems using a heavily-customized version of the Hero Engine, then you should see the complete train wreck that it would have been if they used an uncustomized version of the Hero Engine.

    Game engines are designed to do particular things.  If what you want to do is something that the game engine is designed to handle, great.  But as soon as you want to do something that the game engine designers didn't anticipate, you've basically got three options:  modify the game engine, find some roundabout way of cramming it into the game engine, or abandon that idea.

    If you've got your own game engine, you take option 1 and don't think much of it.  If you're using an off-the-shelf game engine, option 1 is not available to you.  Option 2 is sometimes unavailable to you, and is likely to carry a large performance hit even if you can do it.  It's nearly guaranteed to be more work than option 1 would have been.  If you're using an off-the-shelf game engine, then get used to taking option 3:  abandoning most of your creative ideas because they don't fit the game engine.

    There seems to be this mystique that game engines are really hard to create.  They're not.  You do need a competent programmer with a decent background in mathematics (linear algebra is critical for anything 3D, and multivariable calculus is important, too).  But you'll need that in order to make a bunch of other things in your game work, too.  Trying to license a game engine as a way to get around needing to have anyone competent working on your project isn't likely to end well.

    The point is for small projects, not the fact that SWTOR used a modified version of hero.  I code myself, and I understand the merits of writing your own code to do exactly what you want/need it to do.

    However I completely disagree with you on it being easy to write your own 3D game engine, especially for a small indy dev team.  Besides the whole 3D world, lighting, sound and physics, there's netcode, weather, APIs and many other systems that would need to be put in from scratch.  If making a good 3D engine was easy, the market wouldn't need engines like Hero, Unity, Unreal, iD Tech, Source, etc.  Indy projects like Greed Monger and The Repopulation are using someone else's engine for a reason, and a lot of higher-end 3D games are licensing engines from companies that already did most of the hard work.

    you need buy a proprietary license and get full access to source code if you want to use a 3rd part engine to make something like a 3d open world mmorpgs (i think this is what the "against" side in this argument is basically trying to say).

    serious developers dont use the hobby versions of these engines because

    1. they  dont give the developer much control

    2. ~30% of your profits is way too expensive

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by bishbosh
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    If you think that SWTOR has game engine problems using a heavily-customized version of the Hero Engine, then you should see the complete train wreck that it would have been if they used an uncustomized version of the Hero Engine.

    Game engines are designed to do particular things.  If what you want to do is something that the game engine is designed to handle, great.  But as soon as you want to do something that the game engine designers didn't anticipate, you've basically got three options:  modify the game engine, find some roundabout way of cramming it into the game engine, or abandon that idea.

    If you've got your own game engine, you take option 1 and don't think much of it.  If you're using an off-the-shelf game engine, option 1 is not available to you.  Option 2 is sometimes unavailable to you, and is likely to carry a large performance hit even if you can do it.  It's nearly guaranteed to be more work than option 1 would have been.  If you're using an off-the-shelf game engine, then get used to taking option 3:  abandoning most of your creative ideas because they don't fit the game engine.

    There seems to be this mystique that game engines are really hard to create.  They're not.  You do need a competent programmer with a decent background in mathematics (linear algebra is critical for anything 3D, and multivariable calculus is important, too).  But you'll need that in order to make a bunch of other things in your game work, too.  Trying to license a game engine as a way to get around needing to have anyone competent working on your project isn't likely to end well.

    The point is for small projects, not the fact that SWTOR used a modified version of hero.  I code myself, and I understand the merits of writing your own code to do exactly what you want/need it to do.

    However I completely disagree with you on it being easy to write your own 3D game engine, especially for a small indy dev team.  Besides the whole 3D world, lighting, sound and physics, there's netcode, weather, APIs and many other systems that would need to be put in from scratch.  If making a good 3D engine was easy, the market wouldn't need engines like Hero, Unity, Unreal, iD Tech, Source, etc.  Indy projects like Greed Monger and The Repopulation are using someone else's engine for a reason, and a lot of higher-end 3D games are licensing engines from companies that already did most of the hard work.

    you need buy a proprietary license and get full access to source code if you want to use a 3rd part engine to make something like a 3d open world mmorpgs (i think this is what the "against" side in this argument is basically trying to say).

    serious developers dont use the hobby versions of these engines because

    1. they  dont give the developer much control

    2. ~30% of your profits is way too expensive

    It's not too expensive if you are *never* going to secure the $1 million+ and a couple years it may take to write your own engine, which will not even come close to Hero or Unity's capability.  For all intents and purposes, using Hero Cloud is a type of investment in your company, and for that investment, they are getting paid a percentage.  If you can't afford to hire enough people to build an engine from scratch in the time it would take, you are pretty much dead in the water before you even get started.  If you secure real investment, they might end up owning at least 30% of your business, and often times investment comes at the price of giving up majority ownership and control of your business

    I've never used Hero Engine, but I have seen what some other devs are doing with it, such as The Repopulation, and it looks pretty damned good to me.  The Repopulation probably wouldn't even exist if they didn't have the option of licensing a turnkey engine, nor would Greed Monger or other projects.  This discussion wasn't about whether or not Hero Engine is the best choice for all projects.  It was about a great tool being available to get *INDY DEVELOPERS* started in game development for a very low cost of entry.

    Let us also not forget that if I get Hero Engine for $99 and I walk away from my project before it's even done, for whatever reason, I'm only out my time plus $99.  Try that with traditional investment.  I haven't looked at their contract, but I imagine the fate of a finished game that fails at launch doesn't put you in the poor house either.

    I'm not a fan of pharmaceutical anti-depressants, but I'm starting to think a lot of people around here could benefit from them.  Seriously.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    It's not too expensive if you are *never* going to secure the $1 million+ and a couple years it may take to write your own engine, which will not even come close to Hero or Unity's capability.

    Hooray for completely made up numbers that sound scary?

    If you make your own game engine, you don't need for it to match everything that the Hero or Unity engines can do.  You only need for it to be able to do the things that you want to do in your particular game.  You don't have to try to think of everything that everyone could conceivably ever want to do in any game and implement all of that.

  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by bishbosh
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    If you think that SWTOR has game engine problems using a heavily-customized version of the Hero Engine, then you should see the complete train wreck that it would have been if they used an uncustomized version of the Hero Engine.

    Game engines are designed to do particular things.  If what you want to do is something that the game engine is designed to handle, great.  But as soon as you want to do something that the game engine designers didn't anticipate, you've basically got three options:  modify the game engine, find some roundabout way of cramming it into the game engine, or abandon that idea.

    If you've got your own game engine, you take option 1 and don't think much of it.  If you're using an off-the-shelf game engine, option 1 is not available to you.  Option 2 is sometimes unavailable to you, and is likely to carry a large performance hit even if you can do it.  It's nearly guaranteed to be more work than option 1 would have been.  If you're using an off-the-shelf game engine, then get used to taking option 3:  abandoning most of your creative ideas because they don't fit the game engine.

    There seems to be this mystique that game engines are really hard to create.  They're not.  You do need a competent programmer with a decent background in mathematics (linear algebra is critical for anything 3D, and multivariable calculus is important, too).  But you'll need that in order to make a bunch of other things in your game work, too.  Trying to license a game engine as a way to get around needing to have anyone competent working on your project isn't likely to end well.

    The point is for small projects, not the fact that SWTOR used a modified version of hero.  I code myself, and I understand the merits of writing your own code to do exactly what you want/need it to do.

    However I completely disagree with you on it being easy to write your own 3D game engine, especially for a small indy dev team.  Besides the whole 3D world, lighting, sound and physics, there's netcode, weather, APIs and many other systems that would need to be put in from scratch.  If making a good 3D engine was easy, the market wouldn't need engines like Hero, Unity, Unreal, iD Tech, Source, etc.  Indy projects like Greed Monger and The Repopulation are using someone else's engine for a reason, and a lot of higher-end 3D games are licensing engines from companies that already did most of the hard work.

    you need buy a proprietary license and get full access to source code if you want to use a 3rd part engine to make something like a 3d open world mmorpgs (i think this is what the "against" side in this argument is basically trying to say).

    serious developers dont use the hobby versions of these engines because

    1. they  dont give the developer much control

    2. ~30% of your profits is way too expensive

    It's not too expensive if you are *never* going to secure the $1 million+ and a couple years it may take to write your own engine, which will not even come close to Hero or Unity's capability.  For all intents and purposes, using Hero Cloud is a type of investment in your company, and for that investment, they are getting paid a percentage.  If you can't afford to hire enough people to build an engine from scratch in the time it would take, you are pretty much dead in the water before you even get started.  If you secure real investment, they might end up owning at least 30% of your business, and often times investment comes at the price of giving up majority ownership and control of your business

    I've never used Hero Engine, but I have seen what some other devs are doing with it, such as The Repopulation, and it looks pretty damned good to me.  The Repopulation probably wouldn't even exist if they didn't have the option of licensing a turnkey engine, nor would Greed Monger or other projects.  This discussion wasn't about whether or not Hero Engine is the best choice for all projects.  It was about a great tool being available to get *INDY DEVELOPERS* started in game development for a very low cost of entry.

    Let us also not forget that if I get Hero Engine for $99 and I walk away from my project before it's even done, for whatever reason, I'm only out my time plus $99.  Try that with traditional investment.  I haven't looked at their contract, but I imagine the fate of a finished game that fails at launch doesn't put you in the poor house either.

    I'm not a fan of pharmaceutical anti-depressants, but I'm starting to think a lot of people around here could benefit from them.  Seriously.

    is repopulation using the hobby version of hero engine (herocloud) or the did they buy a license with access to source code etc?

    http://www.heroengine.com/heroengine/licensing-options/

    source code access is $75k + 7% revenue. im guess repopulation went with this option. any developer which is actually serious about what they are doing will go with this option. herocloud is a toy.

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmoDAD
    Originally posted by Souldrainer
    There are some good things that this engine brings to the table, like stable network management. However, if you are an indie dev who has fewer than 10 games under your belt, I strongly advise you to avoid RPGs and MMOs until you have a good grasp on the fundamentals of game design.

    This doesn't matter at all.

    WoW was Blizzard's first MMO. It did very well.

    SWTOr was BioWare's first MMO. It did very bad.

     

    It's all about knowing what makes a good MMO. BioWare claimed it was story. Nope.

    There's more to having commercial success than having a good product.   Yes, it does help, but that in itself does not guarantee its success.

  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by mmoDAD
    Originally posted by Souldrainer
    There are some good things that this engine brings to the table, like stable network management. However, if you are an indie dev who has fewer than 10 games under your belt, I strongly advise you to avoid RPGs and MMOs until you have a good grasp on the fundamentals of game design.

    This doesn't matter at all.

    WoW was Blizzard's first MMO. It did very well.

    SWTOr was BioWare's first MMO. It did very bad.

     

    It's all about knowing what makes a good MMO. BioWare claimed it was story. Nope.

    There's more to having commercial success than having a good product.   Yes, it does help, but that in itself does not guarantee its success.

    mmoDAD ccompletely missed the part where blizzard has lots of experience with massive multiplayer with bnet and bioware has none and both companies have made other non mmorpg games. souldrainers advice is pretty good. i reckon you could subsitute 10 small indie games as he suggested with 1 succesful multiplayer indie game that people actually play. point is that you need skills/experience/money to make an mmorpg and until you acquire this you probs shouldnt bother. make a simple multiplayer game first-- see if you can do that.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon

    An MMORPG as your very first project is probably a bad idea, unless it's awfully simple.  But ten other games first?  Why ten?  Does ten really give you that much more critical experience as compared to nine?

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Wow I never witness so much vemon spewing forth at someone that is just trying to ask if herocloud would be a good start for new or small indie teams to tinker with. We're not talking about the next UO here. I personally think it's fine to dabble in while moving from the concept phase to the materialize stage. It would allow you to test your fortitude while keeping your finacial well being safe. I look at this as a way for new ideas to surface just like XNA was to console gamers for indies. No harm in that. HeroCloud is nothing more to MMOs than XNA was to consoles. Which maybe a good thing to humble a lot of the people around here that keep thinking they can do better. Some may and many will not.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
    Wow I never witness so much vemon spewing forth at someone that is just trying to ask if herocloud would be a good start for new or small indie teams to tinker with. We're not talking about the next UO here. I personally think it's fine to dabble in while moving from the concept phase to the materialize stage. It would allow you to test your fortitude while keeping your finacial well being safe. I look at this as a way for new ideas to surface just like XNA was to console gamers for indies. No harm in that. HeroCloud is nothing more to MMOs than XNA was to consoles. Which maybe a good thing to humble a lot of the people around here that keep thinking they can do better. Some may and many will not.

    read thread again. i dont think anyone here has been even slightly rude to OP. a lot of people here dont seem to appreciate the engineering side of video games and the dont understand how important it is. multiplayer is a huge challenge and massively multiplayer is even harder. herocloud is fine for getting your feet wet but if you want to make actually make a massively multiplayer game and make money from it i would look elsewhere.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    But both can be done with herocloud. Like I stated before, I don't think anyone here is looking to create a masterpiece here. And I know the OP is not looking to replace is income here. I just think instead of detracting from the small goals he has listed, maybe some of the more tech savvy members here could give some words of encouragement. But I now understand that's like asking people here for a kidney when all you asked for was a light.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • SuraknarSuraknar Montreal, QCPosts: 824Member

    Hmm... while some of the more experienced people around here who are against the use of premade engines, are offering some valuable insight and information.

    I still think that the spirit in which the OP is presentingthem is still valid and good. The premade engnes are a good start of the new people to get in to making a game. Not everyone can start coding their own engine just like that. And not everyone can make a game and grasp many of the notions that are involved. But everyone can learn and premade engines are a good way to learn in my opinion.

    So unless some here have somethng to fear, i do not think that discouraging people from getting their feet wet with these engines which at 99$/year are a very affordable endeavor, is actually a good thing.

    Many players have much better ideas than existing Devs (mainly due to constrtraints imposed on them by the industry), which these engines could help some to express without those constraints. It can only be good for the industry and I do not hink that there is anything to fear of.

    I say anyone who ever wanted to put some of their Ideas to the test, go for it, pick one of these engines and let your creative juices guide you!

     

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    image
    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard

  • JamesPJamesP Portland, MEPosts: 435Member Uncommon
    Tell the guys Developing the Repopulation all this crap and see what they say considering they are using Hero... I personally have a HeroEngine Server - I'll tell you one thing it's NOT designed for people with no Programming Experience. There's a TON of Programming you have to do. And it runs great on my old Single Core CPU with Integrated Graphics so I have no idea where people get that it doesn't perform well.

    Company Owner
    MMO Interactive
    Greed Monger

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bishbosh

    I have researched quite a few game engines because i am currently looking into making my own casual multiplayer game. hero engine is basically a toy to play around with for people who arent really serious about making games for money.

    high quality large scale mmorpgs/games do not work well with one solution fits all stuff like hero engine. im sorry but thats the way it is. 

    hero engine uses some weird hero script which probably doesnt give the developer much control over anything and it probably runs slow as shit. 

    the whole hero cloud server crap is bullshit. no decent mmorpg or online game will run on servers which they have little control over. 

    if the developer doesnt have control over server-client interaction and the mulitplayer code, developer cannot guarantee stability, no hacks , no lag etcc etc

     

    if you want to make a big huge mmorpg, you probably cant . stop dreaming.... you would need to build your own complex game engine or pay $500k-$1000k for a proprietary game engine which you would then heavily modify...

     

    if you are making a smaller game make your own primittive game engine or use unity3d

     

    mmorpgs are a big thing and you need large amounts of capital, experience, skills and manpower to make them.

    Tell that to the people making The Repopulation.

    The HeroEngine and the HeroCloud is the perfect solution for an indie company wanting to create an MMO or some other online game. Heroscript is the way for people using heroengine to code in new things or manipulate the engine in different ways.. its just a different scripting language.. UDK also uses their own scriping language as well as many other game engines. You can also gain access to the source code for the hero engine via other license models.

    As for making an MMO yes your right its a lot of work but HeroEngine does cut down that work quite a bit.. work that you would have to do if you where gonig to use Unity3d..

    Unity is a nice engine as well, now with DX11 support as well but it is in no way setup to support MMOs and you have to do a lot of work to get it even close to being ready for an MMO.. you will also need to use middleware for the networking code.

    Most people put the hero engine down because of SWTOR.. Bioware used an old version of the engine and managed to mash it up bad as well..

     

     

    At the end of the day HeroEngine is a very viable option for any indie company wanting to make an MMO. its also one of the best engines for multiple people working togeather, I have not seen it done better in any engine.

    Saying that no one should try and make an MMO game as their first game, there is a shit ton of work invovled and a lot of things can go wrong.. best to make a few SP games and maybe a few small MP games first :)

     

    Didnt realsie they had released HeroEngine 2 think ill have to take another look at it :)

  • JamesPJamesP Portland, MEPosts: 435Member Uncommon
    Unity3D IS another option with the right Network Middleware (MuchDifferent's uLink) it's a very viable option. That's what the team I'm on is using. We are programming our own "inhouse" framework complete with custom Editors, Seamless Tech, our own Character Customization Tech, and plenty as of yet unreleased Cutting edge tech not found in any Current MMO. 

    Company Owner
    MMO Interactive
    Greed Monger

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JamesP
    Tell the guys Developing the Repopulation all this crap and see what they say considering they are using Hero... I personally have a HeroEngine Server - I'll tell you one thing it's NOT designed for people with no Programming Experience. There's a TON of Programming you have to do. And it runs great on my old Single Core CPU with Integrated Graphics so I have no idea where people get that it doesn't perform well.

    Frame rate isn't just a function of the game engine.  It depends tremendously on how much you're trying to keep track of and have to draw per frame, and on what you're trying to draw.  The first time I ran my game engine, it ran at about 200 frames per second on my AMD E-350 based laptop/netbook, even though it was horribly unoptimized.  It helped that the only thing it was trying to draw was a test pattern on the ground.  Getting 50 frames per second while drawing 20 times as much means I've made huge improvements in efficiency, even though the frame rate went way down.

    Now, you probably already knew that.  But that's a point I was trying to make earlier in the thread, where someone was complaining that the Hero Engine is what forces SWTOR to limit how much it draws on the screen at once, as though some other game engine could draw arbitrarily large amounts of things without any performance problems.  While there are surely some game engines that are more efficient than others, it's not an easy thing to measure, especially considering that the relevant comparison is after you've made all of your optimizations to each.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    The trick is, there is only so much blood you can sqeeze from a turnip. Also, if you don't have access to the code for the engine, at that price, that is where people make optimizations.

     

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Caldrin

    Tell that to the people making The Repopulation.

    The HeroEngine and the HeroCloud is the perfect solution for an indie company wanting to create an MMO or some other online game. Heroscript is the way for people using heroengine to code in new things or manipulate the engine in different ways.. its just a different scripting language.. UDK also uses their own scriping language as well as many other game engines. You can also gain access to the source code for the hero engine via other license models.

    As for making an MMO yes your right its a lot of work but HeroEngine does cut down that work quite a bit.. work that you would have to do if you where gonig to use Unity3d..

    Unity is a nice engine as well, now with DX11 support as well but it is in no way setup to support MMOs and you have to do a lot of work to get it even close to being ready for an MMO.. you will also need to use middleware for the networking code.

    Does DirectX 11 even matter if you're not using tessellation?  And how could one plausibly hope to do tessellation without writing your own shaders?  That's low-level stuff that an off-the-shelf game engine isn't going to give you access to without the full source code.

  • JC-SmithJC-Smith Chiang MaiPosts: 414Member Uncommon
    Having worked with Hero Engine for about a year and a half now, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the thing. It's renderer isn't on par with the likes of Unreal Tech, but the editors, collaberative editing, networking is all just fine.
  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Caldrin

    Tell that to the people making The Repopulation.

    The HeroEngine and the HeroCloud is the perfect solution for an indie company wanting to create an MMO or some other online game. Heroscript is the way for people using heroengine to code in new things or manipulate the engine in different ways.. its just a different scripting language.. UDK also uses their own scriping language as well as many other game engines. You can also gain access to the source code for the hero engine via other license models.

    As for making an MMO yes your right its a lot of work but HeroEngine does cut down that work quite a bit.. work that you would have to do if you where gonig to use Unity3d..

    Unity is a nice engine as well, now with DX11 support as well but it is in no way setup to support MMOs and you have to do a lot of work to get it even close to being ready for an MMO.. you will also need to use middleware for the networking code.

    Does DirectX 11 even matter if you're not using tessellation?  And how could one plausibly hope to do tessellation without writing your own shaders?  That's low-level stuff that an off-the-shelf game engine isn't going to give you access to without the full source code.

     

    There are plugins available for Unity3d that allow you to create your own shaders..

    Check this webdemo of a some very nice terrain shaders.. i picked this up last night.

    http://www.stobierski.pl/unity/Terrain_WebPlayer/WebPlayer.html

    tho this is kind of getting away from the hero engine discussion, but you can also write your own shaders in HeroEngine 2 its one of the new features.

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