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Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Originally posted by dreamsofwar Auction houses. I'd much rather see Western MMO's adopt a concept that many Asian MMO's have used, player stalls. It adds to the social aspect of the game, allows for bartering, and it just adds more life and atmosphere to cities, and other parts of the world. Imagine seeing a few player stalls outside of raid entrances, its little things like that I think would make games more immersive.
Dear god NO.
Nothing is as grotesque an eyesore then having thousands of off-line people standing around anywhere they please setting up a shop.
Now I could buy this argument if it was at a players house but no, we do not need anything more to get people to clog up cities.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by azzamasin Listing of my concepts I can not stand, in no particular order: Raiding or Instanced PvP as the only endgame Linearity in general but linear questing, linear progression & linear worlds are the main ones Hand holding from character creation to level cap Quest hub design picking up umpteen million quests and running off and doing them in one fell swoop fed-ex style questing Use of zones to segragate players Pokeman-pet-battles and other silly, juvenile and childish concepts suited to appeal to the 12 year old The Holy Trinity of Tank/Heal/DPS...at least there should be a mandatory Crowd Control Class, Buffer and Debuffer. All 6 roles should be absolutely required if your playing a trinity based game lack of compelling weapons for classes....Swords, Axes, Bows, Daggers and Staves are ok but we need Pole Arms, Scythes, Flails, Throwing Weapons, Atlatls, Melee Quarter Staffs, Orbs, Sceptres, Wands, Chakrams (from Reckoning), Krull style throwing blade, and everything else your imagination can think of Classes....I want freedom to build my own class suited to my likes Classical Bow users without the need of being a pet class refusal to add out door game space (open and non-instanced) player housing, Guild halls and the like. Crafting being a skill an adventurer can pick up. Crafting should be its ONLY game play style. Your either an adventurer or a crafter Cheesy storylines where I am a hero, an MMO is about persistance and if there are thousands of other heroes then the term gets diluted to having no meaning. Players should be adventurers, crafters, politicians, traders and other roles, heroes should be relegated to the annals of a game's lore. Vertical Progression Class skills and abilities that are ONLY purchased from a trainer, let skills, abilties and spells be a part of a games economy. Tiered gear that makes previous gear obsolete Instanced Dungeons....Dungeons should be open and hostile item specific gear...I want to see a return to Asherons Call Style random gear which can be found anywhere and on any mob. Those are just a smidgeon I could think of within the few minutes it took me to make this post but by all means it is not an exhaustive list.
Don't play world of warcraft or most of the other copies of it that have come out sincer 2005, since they all pretty much have all of those things you dislike in them, however I can reccomend everquest 2, since it seems to have the least amount of them. The game did get wowified a bit so it could try to compete with wow, mostly this was in the vein of adding quest hubs.
Originally posted by azzamasin Originally posted by dreamsofwar Auction houses. I'd much rather see Western MMO's adopt a concept that many Asian MMO's have used, player stalls. It adds to the social aspect of the game, allows for bartering, and it just adds more life and atmosphere to cities, and other parts of the world. Imagine seeing a few player stalls outside of raid entrances, its little things like that I think would make games more immersive.
I have to agree with Azzamasin on this one, the whole stall idea alot of asian mmo's use is just terrible, it makes it a pain in the ass to find what your looking for since none of these games have anyway to search them (only exception is ragnarok online that has a player run bot that lists the items, sellers location etc and uploads them to a searchable database). The whole stall was and still is a horrible idea. AH is also better because it helps regulate prices, in a game with stalls people price things all over the place since there is no ingame way to check what a item is worth in general without bugging people. IMO they use the stall system just because the game devs want to be lazy and not have to code a AH. Almost every town in any mmo has tons of buildings that are bascally unused in anyway cept to make the town look more full. Its not that easy to code a properlly functioning AH, but coding a stall is piss easy so they just kinda cop out.
Originally posted by Siveria Originally posted by azzamasin Listing of my concepts I can not stand, in no particular order: Raiding or Instanced PvP as the only endgame Linearity in general but linear questing, linear progression & linear worlds are the main ones Hand holding from character creation to level cap Quest hub design picking up umpteen million quests and running off and doing them in one fell swoop fed-ex style questing Use of zones to segragate players Pokeman-pet-battles and other silly, juvenile and childish concepts suited to appeal to the 12 year old The Holy Trinity of Tank/Heal/DPS...at least there should be a mandatory Crowd Control Class, Buffer and Debuffer. All 6 roles should be absolutely required if your playing a trinity based game lack of compelling weapons for classes....Swords, Axes, Bows, Daggers and Staves are ok but we need Pole Arms, Scythes, Flails, Throwing Weapons, Atlatls, Melee Quarter Staffs, Orbs, Sceptres, Wands, Chakrams (from Reckoning), Krull style throwing blade, and everything else your imagination can think of Classes....I want freedom to build my own class suited to my likes Classical Bow users without the need of being a pet class refusal to add out door game space (open and non-instanced) player housing, Guild halls and the like. Crafting being a skill an adventurer can pick up. Crafting should be its ONLY game play style. Your either an adventurer or a crafter Cheesy storylines where I am a hero, an MMO is about persistance and if there are thousands of other heroes then the term gets diluted to having no meaning. Players should be adventurers, crafters, politicians, traders and other roles, heroes should be relegated to the annals of a game's lore. Vertical Progression Class skills and abilities that are ONLY purchased from a trainer, let skills, abilties and spells be a part of a games economy. Tiered gear that makes previous gear obsolete Instanced Dungeons....Dungeons should be open and hostile item specific gear...I want to see a return to Asherons Call Style random gear which can be found anywhere and on any mob. Those are just a smidgeon I could think of within the few minutes it took me to make this post but by all means it is not an exhaustive list.
Ohh I quit WoW right after Cata and trust me, I can not stand WoW clones like Rit or SWTOR. I dont mind themeparks per se, especially oens like GW2, ESO and Neverwinter because they break the WoW clone mold.
EDIT: your sig is spot on and I agree 100%
Originally posted by Icewhite PVP with essentially/truly infinite deaths has always bothered me. No consequences; no lawman nicking you off to jail if you're caught in town, no bounty hunters hunting your butt in groups, no stocks with villagers hurling fruit, no hangman, no military justice....etc. It's not even minimally "realistic", not even within the limits of the genre. Also MMO "generals" faction leaders etc. allow their "soldiers" to operate as completely independent vigilantes, something no sane commander would ever tolerate. We have the balls to call the chaotic result a "War". PVP is instead just an 8-bit fighting game, Street Fighter with infinite quarters.
Interesting isn't it - that a good consequences system hasn't been developed - it isn't really that hard if you concentrate some effort on it.
All of the above could be put in place without too much trouble.
Originally posted by Siveria Originally posted by azzamasin Originally posted by dreamsofwar Auction houses. I'd much rather see Western MMO's adopt a concept that many Asian MMO's have used, player stalls. It adds to the social aspect of the game, allows for bartering, and it just adds more life and atmosphere to cities, and other parts of the world. Imagine seeing a few player stalls outside of raid entrances, its little things like that I think would make games more immersive.
Haha to be honest I always liked it. It at least made cities seem busy, rather than a bunch of people standing around or the classic running and jumping around the city. It is a clutter but I always thought that was exciting, auction houses make the whole thing so faceless to me. Of course it is much, much easier. I can see why it would be a pain though.
I used to play a really obscure game called Endless Online years ago. It had no auction house or stalls, so all people could do was stand around the main square and in the bank and just shout what they were selling/buying. It was hectic but it was always great to go there. If it had an AH then it would have made the city dead, as it was notorious for the trade and verbal abuse people got there.
I'm truly split on this whole stall/auction house type thing.
I guess my favorite MMO would be EQ1 (up through Planes of Power. After that it just started to grow more and more like WoW every day. WoW has it's spot, but it's obviously not for a lot of us here.)
I loved the EC Tunnel ("Hey you! Come check out what I got at t2.") and I also enjoyed the bazaar zone. I think having a separate "market" zones/areas would be my preferred in this situation. Set up stalls, face-to-face but the separate areas makes it so stalls aren't popping up everywhere in the worst places.
As for the original question? I think questing and quest hubs.
Give me a game like EQ1 any day of the week, just with some modifications brought to it.
Originally posted by phantomghost Quests in general. I should say WoW Quests in general. Oh you created a character... pick your reward. Wow, you picked your first reward, choose another reward. You took your first step, pick a reward. You equipped your reward, choose a reward. You leveled from doing nothing, choose your reward. You opened your inventory, choose a reward. You opened another menu by pressing a button, take a reward. You leveled again, take a reward. You typed a message in chat, have a reward. You spoke to a NPC, heres a reward. You took your first quest, have a reward. You spoke to the person standing next to the person who have you the quest, choose a reward.
You know, your post got me thinking. It's well known that the reward system that things have, such as games, gambling, sex, etc. stimulate dopamine (a neurotransmitter in the brain), which creates addiction. Is it possible that WoW has that sort of system in place to get you hooked when you first start playing? Maybe it's not unique to WoW, either, but to a lot of games.
Anyway, what annoys me the most about MMO concepts is the "kill this, fetch that" system that seems to be extremely common. BORING!
Also NPCs that you're supposed to kill or steal from or whatever just standing around not doing anything, waiting to be killed. Some games have fixed this a bit, but most have not. LotRO and RIFT, I've found, are notorious for this. WoW has tried to imrpove on it a bit with MoP, but it's still guilty of it as well. Let's liven up the world, shall we?
Something else that bugs me is grinding on the same repetitive content day in and day out. A game compelling you to complete the same daily quests because almost all the good rewards are gated behind them (WoW) or having to kill hundreds or even thousands of the same NPCs to complete deeds (LotRO) or having to do the same warfronts day in and day out just to gain some prestige and ranking (RIFT). When you complain about it you're told that MMOs simply just are not for you if you don't want to grind. I mean, really? Why MUST we grind? And if we grind, shouldn't it be a choice, possibly a pleasurable one, not simply because the game requires us to? I refuse to accept this, personally.
You could just as easily substitute "PvP" with "PvE" in that statement.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.-- Herman Melville
1. Railroading, as in.. playing the developers story/adventure, beeing herded around to designated areas designed for your level, zones&areas that only exist for the sake of quests... and so on.
2. Stories instead of worlds with adventure.
3. Dumbing down, as in .. trying to reach an audience ranging from 8-99 year old casual to hardcore, simplifying everything to a beautiful theoretical concept, taking out tactical concepts to better control every part of the game experience, simple spells and abilities, faster gameplay and mashing buttons, fewer and way too similar classes or builds.
4. Balancing, as in balacing pve to make pvp fit in, balancing to make soloing equally hard.. err easy.
6. Quick levelling & Endgame focused, including double xp, making gear obsolete too quick, no consequense, forgetting the journey is the adventure.
7. Point system to equire gear, as opposed to finding and crafting gear, and trading.
8. Brief social interactions, that doesnt connect players.
9. Fearing to cause any kind of confusion or discomfort to players like failing and having to retry, farming anything or doing long quests for grand rewards, finding mysterious items that doesnt hold an explanation what it is for god forbid a player should use his imagination or speculate.. and so on.
10. read Azzamazins post, he says about the same only better.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
-- Cash shops (give me a set monthly fee I start paying after trying out the game that includes EVERY aspect of the game, short of expansion packs that I can choose to purchase if I want; don't try to suck as much money out of me as you can get in order for me to have every available feature in the game) .... I have played and currently do play games with cash shops, mainly because of the limit of decent MMOs available these days, but I hate to see that it is a growing trend
-- FFA PvP (it's a game killer for me; allow players to choose when, where and with whom they want to pvp; if a player checks that he or she is open for pvp then put limits on how it can be unchecked, either time passed or player death; people who are into hardcore pvp can check the option to stay in pvp mode constantly....if I'm on my crafter or entertainer, I shouldn't have to worry about getting killed randomly since I'm marked as an easy target just so another player can gain points or feel better about themselves)
-- levels (limits who you can play with, determines where you can play in the game, kills community....I still remember after CU was implemented in SWG being told for the first time "sorry, we already have too many low players in our group," and that was a point at which players of various levels could still group together without messing up someone's xp, unlike most leveled games)
-- having to choose one combat class
-- crafting being a side to combat (got to reach x level in combat to start crafting, have to progress in combat before progressing further in crafting)
-- crafting being useless because the loot dropped is better than anything a player can craft
-- linear progression (first do quest line A then quest line B then go to zone X and do quest line C, etc. ... chose to make an alt of a different race to see that storyline? guess what! soon you'll find yourself doing the same set of quests that this character is doing)
-- quest turn in being the largest part of xp gain (kill a random mob = 100xp, kill same random mob for a quest = 100 xp for the kills + 2000 xp for turning in the quest)
-- heavily instanced games
-- as others have already said, it is odd to loot things that don't make sense....animals should drop meat, bones, hide unless they have human characteristics (ex. werewolves);basically the loot should match the visual -- caveman in loincloth wouldn't be dropping heavy armor or bags of gold unless he had a sack with him
-- choice of character determining faction or good/evil (while the backstory of that species/race might lean towards something, players should have the freedom to create a storyline of their own....."my species may be 'good,' but when I was raised by species that are 'bad' and I follow their ways" or "my species may be 'bad,' but I saw something wrong with their ways so I chose to live differently"......look at Star Wars as an example, just because Darth Vader was evil didn't mean his kids were too
-- having to choose a faction/side (what about the mercenary for hire that does the work of whichever side will pay the most that day or the businessman looking to make a profit from the conflict selling goods to whoever will buy them?)
-- interactions with other players being limited due to choice of species/faction (I know it is suppose to prevent people from spying on the enemy but with the way technology is these days there are plenty of ways around it and once again that only limites the stories players can choose create for their characters)
I'm sure my list could go on but this is a start.
[edit to add another]
-- "end game" content (Got to go through this raid dungeon again! Why? To get elite loot! Why do you need elite loot? So I go through raid dungeon again! Why? To get the elite loot! .......and the cycle goes on.......once my character's developed--although I've never played a leveled themepark game long enough to see my character fully leveled-- and I've killed the big boss once and seen all there is to see or as much as I was able to see as I was herded through zones, the game IS over; I have no motivation to keep going through the same dungeon over and over again. Why DO I need better equipment? I'm done and there's nothing left that requires me having elite loot; IF a game is a virtual world rather than a linear path then chances are there will be more for me to do and not reach the end of the game then it becomes "why do I need to craft another item/kill another boss monster/do another dungeon? a newbie/less developed character just joined our guild and we are helping him/her out or our guild needs money/supplies for our town or one of many other reasons)
1. Static mobs waiting for you to come along and kill them.
2. Clearly marking quest NPC's with giant symbols. (Can be mixed in with #1 too)
3. Map GPS
4. Instant travel everywhere.
5. Cookie cutter questing systems.
6. World Auction Houses.
7. Limited races/classes/customization selections.
8. Linear wolrds/small worlds. (Made even smaller by #3 & 4)
You want my reasons for these, quote and ask. Otherwise My 2cp.
Just another one.
A set of gear that is the class-specific, end all be all for that class. Look at EverQuest (again.) You could raid in any assorted set of gear. Yes the class stuff was nicer, but you weren't railroaded out of groups/raids/etc for not having a certain iLvl.
I dislike the notion of endgame as something separate from the rest of the game -- this is kind of a hacked quote from a previous post I made some time ago.
Before mmo's, once you reached the end of a game, you just moved on to the next game and/or occasionally replayed the old one. Satisfaction ultimately came from the "journey". End game is a BS idea perpetuated by developers to be an extended timesink to collect your subscription money.
Now, when I say enjoyment is in the journey, I really mean it is in the journey and completing the journey (i.e accomplishment). You get to see your character develop into something powerful and experience fun adventures. HOw many games do you play where you don't have a skill progression but essentially start out almighty powerful? Strategy games come to mind (Chess, lemmings, Tetris). Flight Simulators too and old school arcade games like Asteroids, Donkey Kong and Pole Position. Those are endurance games. In most action/adventure/shooter/rpg single player games, you get new powers and abilities. Contra, Devil May Cry, God of War, Diablo, Doom -- you always start out weak. But then you go through the journey and you get more powerful until you reach the end -- you beat the game, reach max level. What happens now?
For those single player games, you either start over with a new build, maybe go back to find some missing things, or you move on to the next game, don't you? Why should you treat mmos any differently? Because the companies said so? Companies contrived this idea of end game, that you can do more with your character when you've capped out but there's no way for them to keep up with that demand. They SOLD everyone on this IDEA that there's more to do AFTER YOU BEAT THE GAME but the fact is, once you're done with the game....you're done. All MMO's simply can do is offer up more to grind to stretch out how long you're going to pay them.
Heck, think about monopoly -- you start out weak with only your 200 dollars. You go in circles a whole bunch of times and as you do, you acquire new powers (properties, get out of jail free cards), equipment (first houses and then hotels) , and ever-more money to upgrade. There are time sinks (jail, getting all of the same color before adding houses) and pvp (land on someone else's property and pay through the nose) as well as some glorious moments (winning 2nd prize in the beauty pageant). But, inevitably, you max out. Now, your choice is to either keep going around the board and collect 200 dollars (perhaps collect some more rent if people are even willing to play still), start a new game with a different build (acquire different properties since it's the roll of the dice) and see if you can beat it again, or just move on to the next board game (the Game of Life or Stratego.) The game is about the journey.
This is what I mean by end-game being contrived.
1) Battlegrounds and Instanced PvP... when they are on PvP Servers.
2) PvP Rewards
3) Quest hub to Quest hub progression
4) 100,000 people doing the same, "I'm a special little snowflake" quest.
5) Stupid over-used sayings from games that were made after movies, e.g., "I have a bad feeling about this."
6) Lack of armor / clothing variety. We all look the same in the end.
Having to kill and skin a dozen big animals just to get enough leather to make a pair of boots.
Seriously, considering that just about every MMO has you killing huge quantities of animals, I'm surprised PETA hasn't kicked up a big stink about it.
well to add which bothers me
1) lack of open worlds and in the same place i would add the dungeons, why they have to be closed and instanced ?
2) small worlds, why not like EVE a whole planet to become a whole server ?
3) fake hero dimensions, if i want to become a hero for NPCs i go play a single play game, its good to have personal quests but not the style you save the world as everyone else around you ...
4) only fighting become famous and get levels its annoying i would like to gain fame by becoming a famous artisan or famous explorer or famous trader
5) why crafting is so limitied and i can invent my own recipies ?
these few, i have more which i want but these are what i have in mind atm ...
Originally posted by loulaki well to add which bothers me 1) lack of open worlds and in the same place i would add the dungeons, why they have to be closed and instanced ? Big world need big servers and lots of memory. We can't even model a bacterial cell (it takes months on some of the new supoercomputer) and you want it all open? Realistically this will not happen for a long time. Instanced makes it easier to control and you have all the bosses and drops to your group. In an open world the boss might only appear once a day or so. 2) small worlds, why not like EVE a whole planet to become a whole server ? No comment - only played Eve a little - didn't like it. 3) fake hero dimensions, if i want to become a hero for NPCs i go play a single play game, its good to have personal quests but not the style you save the world as everyone else around you ... In GW2, you are NOT an uber hero. In fact you can choose to be from common folk or even an orphan (the human PS). 4) only fighting become famous and get levels its annoying i would like to gain fame by becoming a famous artisan or famous explorer or famous trader Not sure on this one -'THe Justin Bieiber of MMOs"? MEH
5) why crafting is so limitied and i can invent my own recipies ? Because of the same reason there are no single big worlds - too hard to progam and the amount of number crunching for invented recipies would be enormous. This could cause some glitching and then some fantastic glitched armors/weapons/potions to be made. In D1, there was a glitch in such a way you could get uder armor which had the same odds as winning the Powerball in the lottery. All my friends then had this armor. these few, i have more which i want but these are what i have in mind atm ...
"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum
Originally posted by Hardanger A "quest" is any old menial task, and there are thousands of them. My favorite quest sytem to this day is Runescape's, because there are a select number of quests, and they feel like real adventures most of the time. They take time and effort to complete.
+1 hated those quests (as I do the standard mmo quest) but not as much. You actually had to read the quest lines and or use a guide to finish some of them
1) That people become heroes in order to get better items (armor/weapons/jewelry). Yeah sure mercenaries do things for money. But usually in an MMO you are role playing some kind of selfless knight not a sell sword. And yet the developers make it clear they think you are doing what you do not out of heroism, love for your realm, the desire to make a name for yourself, etc. but because you just want a prettier ring and a sharper sword.
2) Similarly, you are a hero who has undergone enough training to be able to wield a sword in a deadly manner or cast powerful magic. And yet your quest begins at level 1 with a few pieces of cloth armor and a low quality weapon. Wouldn't your mentor or guild have made sure you had a full suit of armor instead of making you beat up on a bunch of bandits and take their armor?
3) Also why are helms so rare that you don't even find your first one until level 11? Isn't protecting your head from injuries pretty important? You would think you wouldn't even begin questing without at least some form of protective headgear. We don't let our kids play peewee football or hockey without helmets ffs.
4) The realm sends you out to fight evil, but they don't give you a steed or enough money to buy one until you are level 20. Instead they want you to walk to every destination (at least once). Duh?
Camelot Unchained BackerDAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer
4) Linear instanced worlds
"You are all going to poop yourselves." BillMurphy
"Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone."
Originally posted by allendale5
1) NPC's that stand in the same spot for all of eternity 2) Mobs that are so crowded together that it loses all semblance of reality - even that of the theme-parked suspended disbelief realty. 3) Zones that cannot be traversed without weaving through mindless mobs 4) Quest objectives that are right next to the quest giver. For the love of God, he could do it himself. 5) Class specific weapons and gear. As if a human mage could not pick up a sword if she had to.
6 ) Cash shops, mrah's, currency selling
7 ) Non-seamless zoned world and zone duplicating.
8) Automatic LFG tools and auto-teleport
9) cross-server zone & tools. Does not belong to any game that is descibed as virtual world.
10) Arrows, markers and hand-holdiong.. Following arrows and markers is not playing. It does cut 'play' part from virtual world game.
11) Linear progression through series of closed maps (zones).