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GW2 will be the big e-sport of 2013

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  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

    I like GW2, but I think the likelihood is Firefall will be the next E-Sports big thing, not GW2.

     

    Seems Firefall is more fast paced and built from ground up for competitive pvp.

    I liked what I saw of Firefall, but well Planetide 2, and both don't have that MMO feel at all

    image

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Kuppa

     

    I think that the problem there is Blizzard doesn't care too much about the pvp in WoW. Look at gaming outlets, they don't really cover it thoroughly like they do LoL, CoD, SF, SC2, ect.

    GW2 is also nowhere near esport status but they seem interested and invested in making it happen.

    Not really. ANet 'says' a lot of things but you don't see much from them.

    Esports is big business but it is also very new.

    Recent IPL 5 had 'college football' view numbers, that's large enough for advertisers (mainstream ones) to notice and enquire.

     

    Blizzard actually invests real $$$ / staff / resources towards esports.

    All I see from ANet is just another empty promise from an MMO-Dev.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Kuppa

     

    I think that the problem there is Blizzard doesn't care too much about the pvp in WoW. Look at gaming outlets, they don't really cover it thoroughly like they do LoL, CoD, SF, SC2, ect.

    GW2 is also nowhere near esport status but they seem interested and invested in making it happen.

    Not really. ANet 'says' a lot of things but you don't see much from them.

    Esports is big business but it is also very new.

    Recent IPL 5 had 'college football' view numbers, that's large enough for advertisers (mainstream ones) to notice and enquire.

     

    Blizzard actually invests real $$$ / staff / resources towards esports.

    All I see from ANet is just another empty promise from an MMO-Dev.

     

    Starcraft 2, yes - totally. It's a great e-sport and a fantastic meta. Blizzard puts lots of money into SC2 and it shows.

    But the main thing is that SC2 actually has a good meta, and a solid PVP game for competitive play.

    WoW is unbalanced garbage and will never be an e-sport. They tried in TBC but now even Blizzard doesn't try to get it on ESL, MLG etc.

    WoW arena really is a joke, it's just the same 20 non-professional players year after year doing the only thing they know how, and no one in e-sports cares.

    image

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
     

     

    Starcraft 2, yes - totally. It's a great e-sport and a fantastic meta. Blizzard puts lots of money into SC2 and it shows.

    But the main thing is that SC2 actually has a good meta, and a solid PVP game for competitive play.

    WoW is unbalanced garbage and will never be an e-sport. They tried in TBC but now even Blizzard doesn't try to get it on ESL, MLG etc.

    WoW arena really is a joke, it's just the same players year after year doing the only thing they know how, and no one in e-sports cares.

    WoW's raid stream had respectable numbers actually.

    It wasn't LoL / SC2 numbers but it wasn't that bad.

    Think WoW Arena with DOTA mixed-in would do fairly well actually.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon
    As of right now, I just don't see any sign of GW2 being an Esport deal. 
  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
     

     

    Starcraft 2, yes - totally. It's a great e-sport and a fantastic meta. Blizzard puts lots of money into SC2 and it shows.

    But the main thing is that SC2 actually has a good meta, and a solid PVP game for competitive play.

    WoW is unbalanced garbage and will never be an e-sport. They tried in TBC but now even Blizzard doesn't try to get it on ESL, MLG etc.

    WoW arena really is a joke, it's just the same players year after year doing the only thing they know how, and no one in e-sports cares.

    WoW's raid stream had respectable numbers actually.

    It wasn't LoL / SC2 numbers but it wasn't that bad.

    Think WoW Arena with DOTA mixed-in would do fairly well actually.

     

    WoW cannot be an esport. The metagame is just wrong, unbalanced and boring for competitive PVP. 

    GW2 on the other hand is actually much closer to LoL and has a good shot in the next few months to get there, especially as it has actual e-sports backing rather than the wishful thinking of PVE players. 

    LoL took a year to get to esports viability, and GW2 is well on the way already, especially when you consider the discussion posted above, it's the sort of talks Riot Games had when tweaking the meta for LoL in the early months.

    Bear in mind that 3 months in, not many expected League to be e-sports viable, but Riot kept working on the meta and on PVP balance and now League is the #1 e-sport in the world, ahead even of SC2.

    image

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon

    Pretty doubtful.  As much as I enjoy GW2's pvp, i'm not going to pretend its something which it isn't - and that is a hugely popular competitive online game.  And I think the SPvP community would generally agree with me.

    The first month of guild wars 2, there was a lot of excitement surrounding Spvp.  Players were getting up to 6k viewers at a time for their streams.  There was a huge interest on who the top teams and players were, what the best builds were, what kind of strategy was being used, what kind of gear combination, team comp, ect. 

    But, the more people played, the more the shortcomings started to come out.  Balance became a joke (and still is for some professions and builds).  There are a TON of bugs which are easily overlooked because theres so much going on during PvP.

    Now, streams get 200 viewers at peak time.  There just generally is a lack of interest.  GW2's pvp is far behind WoW's pvp in terms of popularity, let alone starcraft 2 and League of Legends which in turn are far more popular then WoW, E-Sport wise.

    Also, don't tell me this is the most balanced MMO.  Its not.  Blind fanboyism right there.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
     

     

    WoW cannot be an esport. The metagame is just wrong, unbalanced and boring for competitive PVP. 

    GW2 on the other hand is actually much closer to LoL and has a good shot in the next few months to get there, especially as it has actual e-sports backing rather than the wishful thinking of PVE players. 

    LoL took a year to get to esports viability, and GW2 is well on the way already, especially when you consider the discussion posted above, it's the sort of talks Riot Games had when tweaking the meta for LoL in the early months.

    Bear in mind that 3 months in, not many expected League to be e-sports viable, but Riot kept working on the meta and on PVP balance and now League is the #1 e-sport in the world, ahead even of SC2.

    LoL being in the esports scene has little to do with 'balance' and more to do with the fact there are 70 Million accounts that play that game. Riot also throws huge amount of money which I can't see ANet doing; esp since we are talking 'Millions' in prize money.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by fat_taddler
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    If this open, unscripted discussion with the developers is anything to go by:

    GW2 is set for huge e-sport success.

    They are very clear that they are not rushing it, but the announced balance changes, the pacing of changes, the way they are approaching their PVP game is fantastic.

    I also LOVED the fact that this guy says clearly that some noobs just need to L2P. That kind of frankness only comes from someone who plays the game extensively himself, a developer who is also a competitive player = awesome.

    No bullcrap, no marketing spin, just a skilled PVP developer with opinions and ideas who is open about discussing with the players.

    You can tell this guy really cares about balance and competitive gaming above all, and that's exactly what you want.

    Let's face it, PVP in other MMOs like SWTOR, WoW, Aion, AOC, etc is a joke. No one takes it seriously, and no MMO has e-sport PVP. It's too unbalanced.

    GW2 has a very good chance at it because it's already the most balanced MMO, and about to become even more balanced in every little detail.

    I think that with the mindset displayed in the video, they might have the biggest esport game of 2013. 

    Anyway, just watch it in full and make up your own mind.

    Blizzard just had their WoW Arena World Championships a couple of weeks ago.  It had Arena teams from all over the world going head to head for an entire weekend.   Not sure where you're getting your facts from.

     

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/7831336/The_Battlenet_World_Championship_has_Concluded_VODs_Inside-11_17_2012

    I think that the problem there is Blizzard doesn't care too much about the pvp in WoW. Look at gaming outlets, they don't really cover it thoroughly like they do LoL, CoD, SF, SC2, ect.

    GW2 is also nowhere near esport status but they seem interested and invested in making it happen.

    I think Blizzard has tried since the arena scene eventually became really popular once TBC was released.  But the problem is, and Blizzard realized this later but they wouldn't say it, the problem is that WoW wasn't meant to be a very competitive pvp game, let alone an e-sport.  Its a game that's main goal has been and will always be to get better loot.  Its not spectator friendly.  It has suffered from balance issues throughout it's existence.  And, on top of all that, every expansion, they re-make a lot of the mechanics and features.

    While they did a fantastic job with the mechanics and controls, and they allowed pvp in their game, and eventually things just started following into place, Blizzard wasn't really prepared for the publics desire to see WoW's arena scene flourish like SC and WC did.  After all, WoW's main devs were huge EQ nerds and stated they wanted to make something similar to that.  They stated at one point that they wish they didn't put in arena before rated battlegrounds because the constant need to balance classes in arena was too much work.

     

     

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
     

     

    WoW cannot be an esport. The metagame is just wrong, unbalanced and boring for competitive PVP. 

    GW2 on the other hand is actually much closer to LoL and has a good shot in the next few months to get there, especially as it has actual e-sports backing rather than the wishful thinking of PVE players. 

    LoL took a year to get to esports viability, and GW2 is well on the way already, especially when you consider the discussion posted above, it's the sort of talks Riot Games had when tweaking the meta for LoL in the early months.

    Bear in mind that 3 months in, not many expected League to be e-sports viable, but Riot kept working on the meta and on PVP balance and now League is the #1 e-sport in the world, ahead even of SC2.

    LoL being in the esports scene has little to do with 'balance' and more to do with the fact there are 70 Million accounts that play that game. Riot also throws huge amount of money which I can't see ANet doing; esp since we are talking 'Millions' in prize money.

     

    I can see all this happening in GW2 in a few years time.

    League didn't launch being an esport with million dollar prizes.

    That came after years of growing popularity due to Riot's focus on PVP balance, tweaking, meta analysis and dialogue with gamers - and GW2 is making the same moves, that's what the video is all about.

    image

  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    GW2 is set for huge e-sport success.

    lol 

    No.

    Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

    Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
    .


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  • dreamsofwardreamsofwar bangorPosts: 468Member
    I can't see GW2 being bigger than League of Legends or Starcraft.
  • Alber_gamerAlber_gamer RomePosts: 557Member Uncommon
    No no, Guild Wars 2 won't be the big e-sport, Hype Wars will.

    My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    I think anet devs talk too much imo. Seems like every day, one of em is pushing something onto us.

    , and when they talk, they use such hyperbola. Reminds me of Gab and the BioWare gang. 

     

    I just don't think you can say  "This will be a big Esport." It's something that kinda has to happens.

  • xposeidonxposeidon Sandston, VAPosts: 384Member
    I'd take anything the devs say nowadays with a grain of salt, it's obvious they are willing to change the direction of the game anyday they please, we can learn this from the nov 15 patch.

    Remember... all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more.

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FromHell
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    GW2 is set for huge e-sport success.

    lol 

    No.

    Agreed, GW2 becoming an esport is something of a joke, it just doesnt have the right recipe of ingredients to support that kind of 'gameplay', where Arenanet gets the idea that it does, i really don't know. image

  • FreezzoFreezzo EnschedePosts: 235Member
    Originally posted by dreamsofwar
    I can't see GW2 being bigger than League of Legends or Starcraft.

    That's more because of the genre. I can see GW2 becoming the biggest MMO e-sport though, but compared to true strategy games it's actually lacking.

    To all those denying GW2 the ability to become a good e-sport, there's a few points you should check for with games that are or have the potential to become e-sports.

    1. Following and a dedicated playerbase. Both the SC2 and LoL communities are there, they're big and there are tons of people who play those games, be it at a lower level. This has to be proven for GW2 though.
    2. Understandability of the game. This is where a lot of MMOs fail. It's great to play PvP yourself and have 50 skills and multitasking like an octopus with fingers, but for people watching it's impossible to track what players are doing. LoL/any MOBA kinda has a flaw there unless you start getting into the game a bit more, whereas in SC2 it becomes clear fast enough what things do (coloccus: Bigass laser beams. Siege tank: sieging up and shooting, Marine: shooting, etc...). This is actually not too hard to do with GW2, because when you see a warrior with an axe charing in you know he'll start hacking and slashing, as with any MMO, but people don't get scared away by seeing 10000 abilities on 6+ bars. In fact you just see 10 abilities.
    3. Enjoyable to watch: Again with MOBAs this is kinda flawed as they operate with lanes, split battles, quick battles and no way to recap, so I'll take SC2 as an explanation factor here again. Say in SC2 there's a drop going on (for those who don't know: placing limited amounts of units anywhere on the map by air transport) and there's a huge battle going on. Whilst you are watching the battle it might be that you completely miss the effects of the drop, but after the fight you can check and see there's dead units/buildings or if the drop was cleared up. With this GW2/MMOs are more like MOBAs, they are fast paced in combat and  if there are mulitple things happening at once there's no recap to see what happened other than some player has died or took massive damage.
    4. Good spectator options. Mainly for casters/observers. Doesn't need much further explanation.
    5. A good metagame. There have to be possibilities of new and exciting builds or strategies able to counter opponents or do something so radically different and work that there's constant discussions on topics like that. You need depth for those playing at the top level and those interested in it. I can't really comment on GW2 in this regard (as I haven't gotten into spvp yet), but as far as I've seen the setup of the skills/traits works great for this and I do enjoy reading about it already.
    I think that about sums up the requirements for e-sports aside from developers commitment, balancing, stuff that are basically needed for any game wanting to become an e-sport. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on something though ^^
     

    "We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
    And for MMORPGs ever so true...

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

     

    [mod edit] I was logged in this morning and 1/2 of the American servers at 5:00 AM EST were FULL the rest were very high. It doesn't seem to be having issues. Looking at the EU servers all but 5 were full and they were very high. Your wanting something to happen doesn't make it so.

     

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by Freezzo
    Originally posted by dreamsofwar
    I can't see GW2 being bigger than League of Legends or Starcraft.

    That's more because of the genre. I can see GW2 becoming the biggest MMO e-sport though, but compared to true strategy games it's actually lacking.

    To all those denying GW2 the ability to become a good e-sport, there's a few points you should check for with games that are or have the potential to become e-sports.

    1. Following and a dedicated playerbase. Both the SC2 and LoL communities are there, they're big and there are tons of people who play those games, be it at a lower level. This has to be proven for GW2 though.
    2. Understandability of the game. This is where a lot of MMOs fail. It's great to play PvP yourself and have 50 skills and multitasking like an octopus with fingers, but for people watching it's impossible to track what players are doing. LoL/any MOBA kinda has a flaw there unless you start getting into the game a bit more, whereas in SC2 it becomes clear fast enough what things do (coloccus: Bigass laser beams. Siege tank: sieging up and shooting, Marine: shooting, etc...). This is actually not too hard to do with GW2, because when you see a warrior with an axe charing in you know he'll start hacking and slashing, as with any MMO, but people don't get scared away by seeing 10000 abilities on 6+ bars. In fact you just see 10 abilities.
    3. Enjoyable to watch: Again with MOBAs this is kinda flawed as they operate with lanes, split battles, quick battles and no way to recap, so I'll take SC2 as an explanation factor here again. Say in SC2 there's a drop going on (for those who don't know: placing limited amounts of units anywhere on the map by air transport) and there's a huge battle going on. Whilst you are watching the battle it might be that you completely miss the effects of the drop, but after the fight you can check and see there's dead units/buildings or if the drop was cleared up. With this GW2/MMOs are more like MOBAs, they are fast paced in combat and  if there are mulitple things happening at once there's no recap to see what happened other than some player has died or took massive damage.
    4. Good spectator options. Mainly for casters/observers. Doesn't need much further explanation.
    5. A good metagame. There have to be possibilities of new and exciting builds or strategies able to counter opponents or do something so radically different and work that there's constant discussions on topics like that. You need depth for those playing at the top level and those interested in it. I can't really comment on GW2 in this regard (as I haven't gotten into spvp yet), but as far as I've seen the setup of the skills/traits works great for this and I do enjoy reading about it already.
    I think that about sums up the requirements for e-sports aside from developers commitment, balancing, stuff that are basically needed for any game wanting to become an e-sport. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on something though ^^
     

     

    Here's someone who knows what esports is all about.

    GW2's strengths lie in its metagame, and that it has huge depth but also immediacy and visual simplicity.

    The trait/weapon/item/class system overlaid on the combo system is what makes it unique.

    The combos are very visual so when it comes to spectating it's very clear what combos are being set up from classes/traits/items in the team comp. All the combos are counterable, with the current exception of dark field blast finishers.

    It has all the hallmarks of a great esports meta for competitive PVP teamplay, just like League.

    No other MMO has even the slightest chance at e-sport viability, GW2 does because of the specific meta on which it works.

    image

  • FreezzoFreezzo EnschedePosts: 235Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Freezzo
     

    Here's someone who knows what esports is all about.

    GW2's strengths lie in its metagame, and that it has huge depth but also immediacy and visual simplicity.

    The trait/weapon/item/class system overlaid on the combo system is what makes it unique.

    The combos are very visual so when it comes to spectating it's very clear what combos are being set up from classes/traits/items in the team comp. All the combos are counterable, with the current exception of dark field blast finishers.

    It has all the hallmarks of a great esports meta for competitive PVP teamplay, just like League.

    No other MMO has even the slightest chance at e-sport viability, GW2 does because of the specific meta on which it works.

    Don't forget reviving, which has to be timed right and downed state use can turn around fights :)

    "We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
    And for MMORPGs ever so true...

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,523Member Uncommon

    GW2 big e sport - highly doubtful, the game doesn't have a HUGE round the world playerbase (like Starcraft or WoW) it doesn't have a f2p model, so it's not accessible as LoL for example.

    GW2 shines as a game for casual players, that's what the devs should stick too - focus on your core competence, don't try to make your game into something that it was not designed to be.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Freezzo
    Originally posted by dreamsofwar
    I can't see GW2 being bigger than League of Legends or Starcraft.

    snip..

    1. A good metagame. There have to be possibilities of new and exciting builds or strategies able to counter opponents or do something so radically different and work that there's constant discussions on topics like that. You need depth for those playing at the top level and those interested in it. I can't really comment on GW2 in this regard (as I haven't gotten into spvp yet), but as far as I've seen the setup of the skills/traits works great for this and I do enjoy reading about it already.
     
     

    This is the one that is and will be the problem. There are no Magic Boxes, 4 gate DT rushes,  6 pool rushes or the equivalents in GW2.  It's pretty much what you see is what you get. There may be different ways to split up and occupy nodes, but that's about the breath of it atm.

     

    If GW2 had the TSW ability wheel (I would still be pvp'n in GW2), now we'd be talking, or even if there were slotable options for you main abilities. As things stand right now, this is the catagory that's most wanting atm.

     

    One more thing. There is something about the deathmatch style that WoW arena gives that GW2's dominations just can't offer. I think it's the pressure and thrill of doing everything right, and the fear of making mistakes that will kill you team and rating.

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by Toxia
    Originally posted by Syferus
    Every dev talks the talk, hoping they can increase their numbers and keep up the visage of a bright future.  GW2 is no exception.  It is highly unlikely that GW2 will be the next big esport. By design the game was intended as a PvE experience first.  No matter the balancing changes or future plans for PvP, GW2 won't be able to compete with PvP based games like LoL or Dota2.  Their playerbases are focused on competition, while there is a large number of GW2 players that play GW2 solely for its PvE content.  If GW2 expands its playerbase so far that it's select PvP player base rivals WoW or LoL's then they might have a chance.  As of right now, it doesn't look like that will happen.

    I wish they would stick to this, and stop changing everything for the sake of their PvP. They certainly seem more interested in PVP balance than PVE balance, which never go hand in hand. If 80% of your players came for the pve, yet only see constant nerfs and changing to their classes for the sake of pvp, it wont bode well. imo.

    By desing this game was not intended to be as a pve game first, like almost all other mmo's. They based a lot of their design decisions around pvp, specifically spvp.

     


    It's pretty clear they designed the game for PvP first. All those incredibly powerful 2 second fears and cc abilities how fun for PvE...Not to mention every class does everything (snares, dots etc etc). One day a dev will separate PvP and pve effects and everyone will be happy...some day.
  • timeraidertimeraider BredaPosts: 568Member Uncommon

    I wish it would grow bigger as spvp... at start it took me 10 seconds to get into an free spvp tournament. Atm it costs 20-30 minutes.. if your lucky.

     

    Thats... sad

    Main games: Heroes of the Storm, Starcraft 2, Brawlhalla
    Waiting for: Overwatch

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Purutzil
    Originally posted by botrytis
    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

     

    [mod edit]

     I was logged in this morning and 1/2 of the American servers at 5:00 AM EST were FULL the rest were very high. It doesn't seem to be having issues. Looking at the EU servers all but 5 were full and they were very high. Your wanting something to happen doesn't make it so.

    [mod edit]

    I was just using the same type of argument he was. Trying to show how FUTILE the whole 'It's dying, it's not' argument is. Sorry I didn't make it plain that way.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

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