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How About an Entirely Horizontal MMORPG

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  • MeleagarMeleagar Nunyadambidness, TXPosts: 407Member
    Originally posted by coretex666

    First off, I think this belongs to "Game concepts" section.

    As to the idea, I am afraid it would not have the potential to maintain sufficient playerbase for a long time. Why? Because people do like some sort of progression. They like it in real life and they like it in MMOs.

    Unless of course it offers something that has not been seen before, something amazing, something you have not described in the OP.

    People engage in all sorts of games, hobbies, sports, and liesure and entertainment activities that have no meaningful vertical progression. I'm not arguing that people shouldn't enjoy vertical progression activities, I'm just saying that there's plenty of successful non-vertical entertainment in the world. It's not like you can accumulate "more powerful cards that most others can't get" in poker, canasta, bridge, spades. It's not like you can go into a domino tournament with your own dominos that have extra dots.  People spent endless hours playing "pong", and other multi-person games that had no vertical progression. Where is the vertical gear or stat progression in football, baseball, or soccer?  It doesn't exist in many FPS games or sports or simulation games. Most standard board games have no vertical progression. People invest endless hours in hobbies that have zero vertical progression.

    The argument that "people like vertical progression" is, IMO, obviously a non-sequitur. Sure, they do in a lot of things, but in a lot of other things that they invest a whole lot of time in, vertical progression isn't even a consideration.

    Again, I'm not arguing against vertical progression in all games, it just seems very odd and narrow to me that virtually every MMORPG ever made is almost entirely focused on vertical progression.

    It's like when sound first got into movies; every single movie was a musical. Every. Single. One.  They couldn't imagine a movie *not* being a musical. Then years and years later some guy pitched a non-musical movie, and most of the studios laughed at the idea. Why would anyone go to a movie that didnt have song and dance?  It's like they totally forgot that BEFORE sound, NO movie was a "musical". It's like a strange quirk of the evolution of MMORPGs that funneled everything down a very narrow focus on vertical progression.

    Almost like it relates to something psychological in many people. Hmm. Sounds like a future blog post to me.

     

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    You believe that status is just something teenage boys do?  Seriously?

    It's easier to answer arguments that someone (anyone) actually made, isn't it?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    But, you are wrong that status is only important to teenagers.

    Well then, it's good I didn't say that then.

    And it is good that now we are all clear that status is an important human motivation.

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Meleagar
    Originally posted by coretex666
    ...snip

    People engage in all sorts of games, hobbies, sports, and liesure and entertainment activities that have no meaningful vertical progression. I'm not arguing that people shouldn't enjoy vertical progression activities, I'm just saying that there's plenty of successful non-vertical entertainment in the world. It's not like you can accumulate "more powerful cards that most others can't get" in poker, canasta, bridge, spades. It's not like you can go into a domino tournament with your own dominos that have extra dots.  People spent endless hours playing "pong", and other multi-person games that had no vertical progression. Where is the vertical gear or stat progression in football, baseball, or soccer?  It doesn't exist in many FPS games or sports or simulation games. Most standard board games have no vertical progression. People invest endless hours in hobbies that have zero vertical progression.

    ...snip

    How many of the hobbies that people do require a cash shop? I don't know about you but I have to be talked into spending money and I can't say I have ever bought from a cash shop.  Only thing that really jumps out at me is something game related with people that do Warhammer miniatures, those I heard cost a lot. Sports and cards are out of that unless you are playing competitive. Even when I played euchre for money at clubs it was cheap entry fees.

    We play cards at holidays for my family and it's always for the competition. Whoever wins gets to choose what they take home from the dinner. There is also lots of smack talking during spades matches. We do it because we are competitive, not just because there is a gain from it. I don't know if that is tradition for any other families but that's the one thing I look forward to on holidays are the screaming debates on politics and religion and the card playing because then I get to be the one to walk out with all the white meat turkey and flaunt it in my brother's face shaking that ziploc bag at him lol

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    And it is good that now we are all clear that status is an important human motivation.

    Better.  :)

     

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Meleagar

     

    People engage in all sorts of games, hobbies, sports, and liesure and entertainment activities that have no meaningful vertical progression. I'm not arguing that people shouldn't enjoy vertical progression activities, I'm just saying that there's plenty of successful non-vertical entertainment in the world. It's not like you can accumulate "more powerful cards that most others can't get" in poker, canasta, bridge, spades. It's not like you can go into a domino tournament with your own dominos that have extra dots.  People spent endless hours playing "pong", and other multi-person games that had no vertical progression. Where is the vertical gear or stat progression in football, baseball, or soccer?  It doesn't exist in many FPS games or sports or simulation games. Most standard board games have no vertical progression. People invest endless hours in hobbies that have zero vertical progression.

     

    may be not verticle progression, in the sense of accumulating stuff in a MMORPG, but in almost all of the competitive games you cite, there *is* progression, and status plays a role.

    In poker, you have amount of money won. In fact, more money you have, you have more psychological power over your opponent since it is harder to "bankrupt" you.

    In chess, and bridge, and many competitive sports like ping pong, there is the ELO ranking score. That is also used in many online competitive games.

    In baseball, you have your stats (if you play competitive games).

    Obviously it is much harder to improve your chess ranking, than acquiring the new armor from a MMORPG dungeon .. but that is the point. Human, in general, crave status, and MMORPG provides an artificial, easy and cheap way to satisfy that need.

  • RossbossRossboss Runes of Magic, TXPosts: 240Member

    I would love this game except that it might get boring as far as standard combat goes unless it's AI that learns from you. What I mean is killing an unending amount of rats/mongrels/snakes would get really boring because their behaviors are entirely predictable. I could definitely see this being a PvP only MMORPG, would be perfect for drop in style gaming where players could join zones based on their amount of collectables they have, rewards could be receiving cards based on the amount of kills or the amount of work you put into getting kills. This actually sounds more like a phone game more so than a console or pc title. This would be a game that people could play in short bursts of like 15-30 minutes per encounter or area to keep players satisfied without feeling like it's some overly hardcore version of minecraft.

    Free roam crafting is the future really. Manually placing materials on a pattern to create a piece of armor would be awesome. Where all you get is a basic layout for what area your armor is supposed to fit in and a full list of items you have.

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  • MeleagarMeleagar Nunyadambidness, TXPosts: 407Member
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by Meleagar
    Originally posted by coretex666
    ...snip

    People engage in all sorts of games, hobbies, sports, and liesure and entertainment activities that have no meaningful vertical progression. I'm not arguing that people shouldn't enjoy vertical progression activities, I'm just saying that there's plenty of successful non-vertical entertainment in the world. It's not like you can accumulate "more powerful cards that most others can't get" in poker, canasta, bridge, spades. It's not like you can go into a domino tournament with your own dominos that have extra dots.  People spent endless hours playing "pong", and other multi-person games that had no vertical progression. Where is the vertical gear or stat progression in football, baseball, or soccer?  It doesn't exist in many FPS games or sports or simulation games. Most standard board games have no vertical progression. People invest endless hours in hobbies that have zero vertical progression.

    ...snip

    How many of the hobbies that people do require a cash shop? I don't know about you but I have to be talked into spending money and I can't say I have ever bought from a cash shop.  Only thing that really jumps out at me is something game related with people that do Warhammer miniatures, those I heard cost a lot. Sports and cards are out of that unless you are playing competitive. Even when I played euchre for money at clubs it was cheap entry fees.

    We play cards at holidays for my family and it's always for the competition. Whoever wins gets to choose what they take home from the dinner. There is also lots of smack talking during spades matches. We do it because we are competitive, not just because there is a gain from it. I don't know if that is tradition for any other families but that's the one thing I look forward to on holidays are the screaming debates on politics and religion and the card playing because then I get to be the one to walk out with all the white meat turkey and flaunt it in my brother's face shaking that ziploc bag at him lol

    Competition doesn't have anything to do with vertical progression - in fact, many games and activities that are competitive are only meaningfully so because the playing field (including what one would call "gear") is fair and even. 

    Most hobbies require a cash shop. People that build and fly radio controlled games pay at the cash shop - a real life one. I don't know of any hobbies that do not require a cash shop - a real life one.  Play the guitar as a hobby? Paint?  Bowling - tennis - even when you go play putt-putt. There's no vertical progression on a putt-putt course, unless you count the inclines and ramps.

     

  • MeleagarMeleagar Nunyadambidness, TXPosts: 407Member
    Originally posted by Rossboss

    I would love this game except that it might get boring as far as standard combat goes unless it's AI that learns from you. What I mean is killing an unending amount of rats/mongrels/snakes would get really boring because their behaviors are entirely predictable.

    At the end of the day, killing anything repetitively is boring, but at least with this kind of game you can go wherever you want in the world because it's all the same "level" and fight different stuff, and you don't feel compelled to do so because you aren't trying to level. You can do other things that bring in the materials, tokens or gold you want.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Rossboss

    What I mean is killing an unending amount of rats/mongrels/snakes would get really boring because their behaviors are entirely predictable.

    I question that statement. Diablo 3 combat is still fun after so many hours. The mobs are kind of predictable (normal mobs have several types of behavior from rushing you, or evading and throw fireball .. and elite ones have a few combo of stuff they do), but a) it is still challengeing, and b) fun to mow down 10s of mobs as long as there is some variations.

    I think it is only boring if it is predictable and easy. If it is somewhat predictable but challenging, it is ok.

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member

    An game doesn’t have to appeal to everyone. Just a large enough niche to be profitable. A game that doesn’t appeal to the gear obsessed, status needy, immature, show off, some of you describe as the typical MMORPG goer might actually find a good audience of its own with a community that doesn’t fit the typical mold. Wouldn’t that be nice?

     

    However, it seems the OP isn’t describing a true MMORPG and is really after something else MMO I am hesitant to label. A video game RPG is defined by forms of vertical progression which is what separates it in part from any other shooter or action game into a unique genre. What they note is a lot of features that aren’t wrapped into a point to make a complete game and could be tacked onto anything really. They don’t make a game by themselves.

     

    If the main thing you do in the game is kill stuff and take its loot then how you go about that will start to define it as some form of hybrid. I am reminded of Borderlands as a hybrid shooter (FPS) / RPG (vertical progression by talent trees.)

  • MeleagarMeleagar Nunyadambidness, TXPosts: 407Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Meleagar

     

    People engage in all sorts of games, hobbies, sports, and liesure and entertainment activities that have no meaningful vertical progression. I'm not arguing that people shouldn't enjoy vertical progression activities, I'm just saying that there's plenty of successful non-vertical entertainment in the world. It's not like you can accumulate "more powerful cards that most others can't get" in poker, canasta, bridge, spades. It's not like you can go into a domino tournament with your own dominos that have extra dots.  People spent endless hours playing "pong", and other multi-person games that had no vertical progression. Where is the vertical gear or stat progression in football, baseball, or soccer?  It doesn't exist in many FPS games or sports or simulation games. Most standard board games have no vertical progression. People invest endless hours in hobbies that have zero vertical progression.

     

    may be not verticle progression, in the sense of accumulating stuff in a MMORPG, but in almost all of the competitive games you cite, there *is* progression, and status plays a role.

    In poker, you have amount of money won. In fact, more money you have, you have more psychological power over your opponent since it is harder to "bankrupt" you.

    In chess, and bridge, and many competitive sports like ping pong, there is the ELO ranking score. That is also used in many online competitive games.

    In baseball, you have your stats (if you play competitive games).

    Obviously it is much harder to improve your chess ranking, than acquiring the new armor from a MMORPG dungeon .. but that is the point. Human, in general, crave status, and MMORPG provides an artificial, easy and cheap way to satisfy that need.

    I'm talking about vertical and gear stat progression within the game, not titles and status and money you get *outside* the game itself. You don't get more powerful ping pong paddles or pawns that can shoot lasers out of their eyes in chess.  Those are entirely horizontal games.  When you play tournaments in any sport to become the champion, you don't accumulate gear advantages over the players you meet - you're both playing with the same gear. You dont get a hockey stick +7 str or a football +2 against interception.

    Seriously, what's the big deal? There are countless games, hobbies and activities that have **no** vertical stat/gear progression and people pour millions of hours and hundreds of millions of dollars into those things every year. We all know this.  There's no sense trying to call a leader board, playoff brackets or a title "vertical progression".  You all know what I'm talking about here, and those things have nothing to do with the kind of vertical progression we're discussing in an MMOG.

    The argument that an MMOG can't succeed without stat progression is just not founded in reality, IMO.

  • MeleagarMeleagar Nunyadambidness, TXPosts: 407Member
    Originally posted by Crazy_Stick

    However, it seems the OP isn’t describing a true MMORPG and is really after something else MMO I am hesitant to label. A video game RPG is defined by forms of vertical progression which is what separates it in part from any other shooter or action game into a unique genre. What they note is a lot of features that aren’t wrapped into a point to make a complete game and could be tacked onto anything really. They don’t make a game by themselves.

    There is nothing explicit or implicit in the term "massviely multiplayer role-playing game" or even "role-playing game" that refers to vertical progression.  That may be the narrow, myopic choice developers have decided to utilize, but just as "talkie" used to be synonymous with "musical", the current association doesn't necessarily define the potential of the genre.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Meleagar
    Originally posted by Crazy_Stick

    However, it seems the OP isn’t describing a true MMORPG and is really after something else MMO I am hesitant to label. A video game RPG is defined by forms of vertical progression which is what separates it in part from any other shooter or action game into a unique genre. What they note is a lot of features that aren’t wrapped into a point to make a complete game and could be tacked onto anything really. They don’t make a game by themselves.

    There is nothing explicit or implicit in the term "massviely multiplayer role-playing game" or even "role-playing game" that refers to vertical progression.  That may be the narrow, myopic choice developers have decided to utilize, but just as "talkie" used to be synonymous with "musical", the current association doesn't necessarily define the potential of the genre.

    I agree. Vertical progression is independent of MMORPG, and CRPG in general. However, it is a very popular gameplay element. Even action/stealth games like Dishonored, and Dead Space has it.

    Vertical progression is leveraging a very powerful psychology to make games fun. A devs don't have to use it .. but it is tried and known to work in providing entertainment/pleasure to players.

  • RossbossRossboss Runes of Magic, TXPosts: 240Member
    Originally posted by Meleagar
    Originally posted by Rossboss

    I would love this game except that it might get boring as far as standard combat goes unless it's AI that learns from you. What I mean is killing an unending amount of rats/mongrels/snakes would get really boring because their behaviors are entirely predictable.

    At the end of the day, killing anything repetitively is boring, but at least with this kind of game you can go wherever you want in the world because it's all the same "level" and fight different stuff, and you don't feel compelled to do so because you aren't trying to level. You can do other things that bring in the materials, tokens or gold you want.

    You might be able to go wherever you want in the game but what's the appeal to going there? Exclusive materials, places, people and conflicts. It wouldn't be much of a game if you have no opposition. What would be the point of collecting the materials or cards or money?

    I can't see where you find opposition if you entirely skirt the fact that you don't have to engage in any kind of conflict. People would just roam around without having anything to worry about as they craft/collect to their heart's content.

    You also said RP potential is enormous, but is there a market for RP in games anymore?

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member
    Originally posted by Meleagar
    Originally posted by Crazy_Stick

    However, it seems the OP isn’t describing a true MMORPG and is really after something else MMO I am hesitant to label. A video game RPG is defined by forms of vertical progression which is what separates it in part from any other shooter or action game into a unique genre. What they note is a lot of features that aren’t wrapped into a point to make a complete game and could be tacked onto anything really. They don’t make a game by themselves.

    There is nothing explicit or implicit in the term "massviely multiplayer role-playing game" or even "role-playing game" that refers to vertical progression.  That may be the narrow, myopic choice developers have decided to utilize, but just as "talkie" used to be synonymous with "musical", the current association doesn't necessarily define the potential of the genre.

    Honestly. This is wrong and born of feeling rather than education. Go to school for design.  I don't say that to be mean.

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Meleagar
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Meleagar

     

    People engage in all sorts of games, hobbies, sports, and liesure and entertainment activities that have no meaningful vertical progression. I'm not arguing that people shouldn't enjoy vertical progression activities, I'm just saying that there's plenty of successful non-vertical entertainment in the world. It's not like you can accumulate "more powerful cards that most others can't get" in poker, canasta, bridge, spades. It's not like you can go into a domino tournament with your own dominos that have extra dots.  People spent endless hours playing "pong", and other multi-person games that had no vertical progression. Where is the vertical gear or stat progression in football, baseball, or soccer?  It doesn't exist in many FPS games or sports or simulation games. Most standard board games have no vertical progression. People invest endless hours in hobbies that have zero vertical progression.

     

    may be not verticle progression, in the sense of accumulating stuff in a MMORPG, but in almost all of the competitive games you cite, there *is* progression, and status plays a role.

    In poker, you have amount of money won. In fact, more money you have, you have more psychological power over your opponent since it is harder to "bankrupt" you.

    In chess, and bridge, and many competitive sports like ping pong, there is the ELO ranking score. That is also used in many online competitive games.

    In baseball, you have your stats (if you play competitive games).

    Obviously it is much harder to improve your chess ranking, than acquiring the new armor from a MMORPG dungeon .. but that is the point. Human, in general, crave status, and MMORPG provides an artificial, easy and cheap way to satisfy that need.

    ...snip

    The argument that an MMOG can't succeed without stat progression is just not founded in reality, IMO.

    Who said it wouldn't suceed? Don't be confused by what I typed today. I like playing devil's advocate but I think any game can succeed if it is niche and gets enough players to support itself and a staff of about 3. One for the forums and business, one to code, one to make it pretty. If you want to live meagerly, that 3 person outfit could be 1 person. Problem is that you don't want to be that person from earlier statements about not wanting to push the project toward a team and funding.

     

    I think what most people are saying is that stat progression is recognized and a simple way to improve that we all have seen. People know that is profitable. Putting the word success in there means that you have to define success then. Is success a popular game with high population or just enough for the developer and friends to play for free. Does success mean the game lasted 6 months or 6 years etc.

     

  • MeleagarMeleagar Nunyadambidness, TXPosts: 407Member
    Originally posted by Rossboss
    Originally posted by Meleagar
    Originally posted by Rossboss

    I would love this game except that it might get boring as far as standard combat goes unless it's AI that learns from you. What I mean is killing an unending amount of rats/mongrels/snakes would get really boring because their behaviors are entirely predictable.

    At the end of the day, killing anything repetitively is boring, but at least with this kind of game you can go wherever you want in the world because it's all the same "level" and fight different stuff, and you don't feel compelled to do so because you aren't trying to level. You can do other things that bring in the materials, tokens or gold you want.

    You might be able to go wherever you want in the game but what's the appeal to going there? Exclusive materials, places, people and conflicts. It wouldn't be much of a game if you have no opposition. What would be the point of collecting the materials or cards or money?

    I can't see where you find opposition if you entirely skirt the fact that you don't have to engage in any kind of conflict. People would just roam around without having anything to worry about as they craft/collect to their heart's content.

    You also said RP potential is enormous, but is there a market for RP in games anymore?

    I think you must have gotten the wrong idea. I didn't say that there was no PvE. There will be plenty of PvE. Lots of creatures, boss creatures, dungeon creatures, raid creatures, etc to fight along your way. There will just be no vertical progression.
  • ice-vortexice-vortex Xenia, OHPosts: 951Member

    Horizontal progression doesn't mean no progression. Horizontal progression is advancement through new abilities that are equally viable in power as previous abilities you obtained.

    You can't get away from veritical progression without making it bland, because even if you went horizontal progression with character abilities, characters would still gain an increase in power just because of how flexible the later characters would be compared to new characters.

  • MeleagarMeleagar Nunyadambidness, TXPosts: 407Member
    Originally posted by ice-vortex

    Horizontal progression doesn't mean no progression. Horizontal progression is advancement through new abilities that are equally viable in power as previous abilities you obtained.

    You can't get away from veritical progression without making it bland, because even if you went horizontal progression with character abilities, characters would still gain an increase in power just because of how flexible the later characters would be compared to new characters.

    If one is simply intent on defining something - anything -as "vertical" in order to justify a claim that there "must" be vertical progression, they can certainly do so. Again, my point is about stat progression either in gear or in characters, which is what is generallly meant by the term.
     

    Swapping a +5% fire resistance out for a +2% movement is not a vertical increase in power.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rossboss
    Originally posted by Meleagar
    Originally posted by Rossboss

    I would love this game except that it might get boring as far as standard combat goes unless it's AI that learns from you. What I mean is killing an unending amount of rats/mongrels/snakes would get really boring because their behaviors are entirely predictable.

    At the end of the day, killing anything repetitively is boring, but at least with this kind of game you can go wherever you want in the world because it's all the same "level" and fight different stuff, and you don't feel compelled to do so because you aren't trying to level. You can do other things that bring in the materials, tokens or gold you want.

    You might be able to go wherever you want in the game but what's the appeal to going there? Exclusive materials, places, people and conflicts. It wouldn't be much of a game if you have no opposition. What would be the point of collecting the materials or cards or money?

    I can't see where you find opposition if you entirely skirt the fact that you don't have to engage in any kind of conflict. People would just roam around without having anything to worry about as they craft/collect to their heart's content.

    You also said RP potential is enormous, but is there a market for RP in games anymore?

    Such a game would need some kind of overarching challenge to give  reason to adventure (horizontal or not).  Perhaps it's an unexplored planet.  Perhaps it's the settling of a new terrirory.  There needs to be some major theme going on, which perhaps goes a bit over into themepark territory, but it'll be there where you find your motivation for adventuring. 

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon

     the Op seems to call for a world where ones character is totally and completely stagnent. It will never grow or become more powerfull as that would require verttical levels of challenge to be put it.

      So breifly put your character starts with the same amount of power he will ever have. he will never grow stronger and and horizontal content will never grow tougher as one requires the other. Everyone would be able to do everything on day one. there would be no need of crafting as higher level / stronger gear is a vertical inc4rease which would then either cheapen and remove any challenge from the static horizontal encounters or would require the encouinter to be higher (vertical) level to remain challengeing.

       Dorry OP you can't have one without the other. If your premise is all content is equal and doable on day one to your starting character then you wipe out the need for crafting of all but cosmetic items, and wipe out any need to further ones skills or equipement as thats a vertical incrase. End point such a game would be ok for a short term but since there is no growth, no need to attempt to get better because of the static nature of the game and its challenges it would quickly become stale IMo opinion.

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member
    I like the idea but in practice that would be a lot to think about at the beginning of a game when you don't know how things play out later.  I think Precu SWG was perfect in this regard, just copy their skill based system and call it good.  Hell, call it great!
  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Meleagar
    Originally posted by ice-vortex

    Horizontal progression doesn't mean no progression. Horizontal progression is advancement through new abilities that are equally viable in power as previous abilities you obtained.

    You can't get away from veritical progression without making it bland, because even if you went horizontal progression with character abilities, characters would still gain an increase in power just because of how flexible the later characters would be compared to new characters.

    If one is simply intent on defining something - anything -as "vertical" in order to justify a claim that there "must" be vertical progression, they can certainly do so. Again, my point is about stat progression either in gear or in characters, which is what is generallly meant by the term.
     

    Swapping a +5% fire resistance out for a +2% movement is not a vertical increase in power.

     your OP was that all areas and content are doable right out the gate. that one would never need to grow in Power (a vertical aspect) As such why really would i want to switch oput a +2% movement for a 5% fire resistance. the content is doable as it right out of the gate per your OP.

      Seems your really just saying there should be a vertical gear/skill progression with no stat/character progression. If you need gear or skills to do well on some encounter then there is a endgame and a vertical progression. (ie one can't right out of the gate on creation go storm the dark foozle eith a good chance of winning.)

  • MeleagarMeleagar Nunyadambidness, TXPosts: 407Member

    I reiterate: for those that require vertical stat progression to enjoy a game, this kind of game is obviously not for you. Yes, you will perceive your character as being stagnate and yes, you would feel like there is no reason to do anything else in the game. I'm not trying to sell the concept of a non-vertical game to those that reguire vertical progression in their gaming entertainment

     

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