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This pretty much sums up why ffa pvp mmo's fail.

2

Comments

  • AethaerynAethaeryn Kitchener, ONPosts: 1,977Member Uncommon

    Here is some proof that I think applies to my above . . . all game devs should watch this.

     

    There is no perfect Pepsi

     

    Plain, Spicey and Extra Chunky speghetti sauce.. . .  

     

    http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html

     

    skip to 13:10

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • JupstoJupsto englandPosts: 2,087Member

    So if you state something completely false as a "rule", it makes it unquestionably correct?

    your "rule1" is so obviously wrong its not even worth making an arguement against. as for the rest: dayz not only forced pvp but also full loot and was pretty sucessful. what about ps2, you don't play that because its forced pvp right? actually wait ps2 doesn't exist right?

    not sure why im responding to such a stupid flamebait thread anyway.

    My blog: image

  • mehoronmehoron Irvine, CAPosts: 146Member
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by mehoron
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Azoth
    So UO was not a success ?


    It did better after the PvE rule set was implemented. They reached their peak of 250,000 people during that time. I thought it was 278,000, but Wikipedia never lies.

    Eve seems pretty successful. It took a lot of time, but nobody considers Eve a failure. I don't know that I'd call Darkfall a failure either, since they made enough money to write another game, even if it uses a lot of assets from an existing game.

    I don't think the OP's premise is valid.

     

    I don't think it's invalid, but it doesn't hit on any issues. It's more a history lesson, then saying "It will fail cause I think the others have failed"

    I don't believe that people should stop making FFA games cause of history, since as it's been indicated FFA games are alive and well. But the OP never goes into detail about why they feel it's a failure.

    (S)he didn't have to go into detail as the OP spelled it out plain as day in there post. PvP focused games don't succeed because they are PvP focused. Which is entirely untrue and not the reason games like MO and Darkfall didn't do as well as they should have. 

    It was poor planning, poor development, bad coding, and mainly a lack of funding and talent. 

    Henrick is why Mortal failed, the guy has no clue how to run a development team or how to find true talent to bring ideas to life. Mortal failed as soon as they released the dogs to the CBTs and everyone realized it was a broken monstrocity. It had nothing to do with the PVP or its focus on PVP, but everything to do with bugs and broken mechanics/false promises. 

     

    Well people play MMORPGs to play a role either in a bigger battle or in PVP, neither DF or MO really fulfill that, bugs aside. There is no driving force behind any of it.

    Honestly you can say "go make a character, now go fight people in different arenas with different amounts of players" and you pretty much have the gameplay content in both the games without the grind. Infact that model would probably be more popular.

    In both games the world means pretty much nothing. There is no starve on resources, there is no REAL PVP economy or market. It's very shallow. No one is running around DF as a merchant with a pack camel that needs protection. There are just the same people using the same weapon and spells fighting over a city that doesn't really matter. 

  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Fresno, CAPosts: 615Member
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by Siveria
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Planetside 2 is an MMORPG.

    I somehow doubt Planetside 2 is PVE :P

    In other words, the OP has no real idea what he's going on about :)

    Planetside 2 also sucks balls. And it is hardly a mmorpg, its missing most of the things that make an mmo"RPG" a mmorpg, like content, storyline, stuff to do, itemization.

    So you can't have a role playing game without items?

    You can't have an RPG without a set storyline?

     

    and whether or not Planetside 2 performs the sexual act you mention or not, it really has no affect on the success of a FFA PVP game, nor Darkfall UW in any way.

     

    In other words, I seriously hope you are joking because I hate to think you actually believe in such reasoning.

    I bet you think CoD and Battlefield are mmorpgs also, right? lol

    Will Darkfall: The Second Attempt die because of FFA PvP? Most likely not.

    Will it remain a niche game with a tiny playerbase ridiculed by most of the gaming world just as its predecessor and challenged twin Mortal Online were and are? Oh, yeah.

    Also, EvE is sullied every time some random Darkfall supporter tries to use it as a reason Darkfall can be just as successful. It's blasphemous to even mention the two games in the same breath.

    EvE is successful because even a staunch PvE only player can play EvE enjoyably. EvE has FFA PvP, but EvE supports ALL types of gameplay and all types of gamers.

    Darkfall and its dropped-on-the-head-at-birth twin Mortal Online focus on supporting the ganker over all else. The fact Darkfall at least has a few credible programmers is the only reason it sits higher than MO.

    EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by Siveria
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Planetside 2 is an MMORPG.

    I somehow doubt Planetside 2 is PVE :P

    In other words, the OP has no real idea what he's going on about :)

    Planetside 2 also sucks balls. And it is hardly a mmorpg, its missing most of the things that make an mmo"RPG" a mmorpg, like content, storyline, stuff to do, itemization.

    So you can't have a role playing game without items?

    You can't have an RPG without a set storyline?

     

    and whether or not Planetside 2 performs the sexual act you mention or not, it really has no affect on the success of a FFA PVP game, nor Darkfall UW in any way.

     

    In other words, I seriously hope you are joking because I hate to think you actually believe in such reasoning.

    I bet you think CoD and Battlefield are mmorpgs also, right? lol

    Will Darkfall: The Second Attempt die because of FFA PvP? Most likely not.

    Will it remain a niche game with a tiny playerbase ridiculed by most of the gaming world just as its predecessor and challenged twin Mortal Online were and are? Oh, yeah.

    Also, EvE is sullied every time some random Darkfall supporter tries to use it as a reason Darkfall can be just as successful. It's blasphemous to even mention the two games in the same breath.

    EvE is successful because even a staunch PvE only player can play EvE enjoyably. EvE has FFA PvP, but EvE supports ALL types of gameplay and all types of gamers.

    Darkfall and its dropped-on-the-head-at-birth twin Mortal Online focus on supporting the ganker over all else. The fact Darkfall at least has a few credible programmers is the only reason it sits higher than MO.

    As far as I know, CoD and Battlefield have many matches instead of one world to fight in.

    El Psy Congroo

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon

    I think the OP needs to define "fail".

    The only time a game "fails" is if it earns less than is needed to repay it's loans and keep the servers running (and the dev team stil get paid monthly)..

    Not having 1M or 500K players is not "failing".

  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Fresno, CAPosts: 615Member
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by Siveria
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Planetside 2 is an MMORPG.

    I somehow doubt Planetside 2 is PVE :P

    In other words, the OP has no real idea what he's going on about :)

    Planetside 2 also sucks balls. And it is hardly a mmorpg, its missing most of the things that make an mmo"RPG" a mmorpg, like content, storyline, stuff to do, itemization.

    So you can't have a role playing game without items?

    You can't have an RPG without a set storyline?

     

    and whether or not Planetside 2 performs the sexual act you mention or not, it really has no affect on the success of a FFA PVP game, nor Darkfall UW in any way.

     

    In other words, I seriously hope you are joking because I hate to think you actually believe in such reasoning.

    I bet you think CoD and Battlefield are mmorpgs also, right? lol

    Will Darkfall: The Second Attempt die because of FFA PvP? Most likely not.

    Will it remain a niche game with a tiny playerbase ridiculed by most of the gaming world just as its predecessor and challenged twin Mortal Online were and are? Oh, yeah.

    Also, EvE is sullied every time some random Darkfall supporter tries to use it as a reason Darkfall can be just as successful. It's blasphemous to even mention the two games in the same breath.

    EvE is successful because even a staunch PvE only player can play EvE enjoyably. EvE has FFA PvP, but EvE supports ALL types of gameplay and all types of gamers.

    Darkfall and its dropped-on-the-head-at-birth twin Mortal Online focus on supporting the ganker over all else. The fact Darkfall at least has a few credible programmers is the only reason it sits higher than MO.

    As far as I know, CoD and Battlefield have many matches instead of one world to fight in.

    Okay, then I will at least give you that credit. image

    EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  • dreamsofwardreamsofwar bangorPosts: 468Member
    Darkfall is what it is. Not everyone will like that, but Adventurine isn't catering to the masses, its catering to a niche. Other mmo's tend to try and find something for everyone, this is where it is different. OP says that they will lose players with full loot and the game will be dead, I don't believe that to be true. There is a hardcore group of mmo fans out there just waiting to get stuck into this game, and they will likely be loyal to this game for giving them the gameplay they've been longing for after all these years. And because its catering to a core group of people, yeah it will never have the massive sub numbers that some more popular AAA games have, but who cares, this is what a lot of veteran fans want. Why not accept that and move on?
  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member
    Originally posted by Siveria
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by Siveria

    So in case your wondering why I say Darkfall: uw will be dead after 3 months, its because of the rules below and the fact that its been proven that in todays mmo market ffa full loot pvp games just do not survive anymore sadly, Now you might argue about Eve Online, but that game was near death till Plex came out and people could play for free on someone else's dollar.

    Read the general mmorpg rules below. Especally number 3, because this is where games like mortal online and darkfall failed. Also before you say I dislike pvp, i don't, I don't mind if its forced, what I do dislike is the full loot aspect of it, well that and the fact max lv chars can pick on lowbie/newbies and get away with it.. usually, there are sometimes other players who will take time out of their day to protect said lowbies. Take the full loot away from darkfall UW and i'd defentally play. Don't mind so much about picking on lowbies, its not something I do and i feel people that do that are cowards who can't handle a real/even fight.

    Here are the rules below, and for the most part they are true. Number 3 is one of the major reasons why games like MO, DF etc fail. That and what I mentioned earlier.

    Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.
    Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
    Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.
    Rule#4 - The same as Rule#3 can be applied to RP - you cannot force it.
    Rule#5 - Before you get lippy, remember Rule#1.

    You really have no idea what your talking about. EVE wasn't almost dead before PLEX came out... that is just ignorance right there. 

    First off YOUR rules aren't remotely close to how MMO's should be designed as it alienates one group or the other. You need to look at Bartle and some of his work. He had it right on how MMO's should be developed and how games in general should strive to accomadate each type of gamers playstyle. 

    If you develop soley with PVE in mind you get games like SWTOR. If you develop with PVP soley in mind you end up with games like Mortal (lack of funding). You have to mix the two in order to be successful. WoW wouldn't be where it is today if it didn't have PvP as a main focus of game. EVE wouldn't be where it is today if PVP wasn't the main focus of the game. 

    No you need to design with both play styles in mind and mix the two naturally together, something akin to what Lineage 2 did. 

    If you alienate one style you won't be successful because your purposely alienating 50% of your obtainable playerbase. Yes  PVPers and PVEers are close to an even split. Mainly because most PVPers enjoy PVE as well and most PVEers enjoy PVP as well. 

    While RP can be put on the backburner for development as they are no where close to being a majority, there really is no reason to not accomadate them. All they usually want is decent animations on emotes, sitable chairs, Naming Policy with an easy way to report offensive names, and chat bubbles. Nothing major when you consider what PVEers and PVPers both demand. 

     

    TL;DR 

     

    Your rules are a result of ignorance. 

    Hate to tell you but the mmo market is mostly pve'ers and alot less of a pvper population. Look at Aion, Decent amount of players but maybe 10% of them on each faction ever shows up for the pvp events in the abyss, while the rest who are high enough in level/skill just stick to pve. Its liek this in almost all mmo's that have both game modes, onyl exception might be dark age of camelot, that games pvp setup was just godlike, why the hell no dev tries to copy it is beyond me. It was perfect you had your pve world, then you had your open faction vs faction 3 way pvp zone with stuff to do like take keeps and such, and the most important part which most games with pvp forget to add, is a reason to pvp, daoc's pvp unlocked a ton of new abilities and such for your characters, that you could not get any other way, its much better than handing pvp'ers items IMO.

    Also the rules are something I found on another forum, and they have been proven true more than once. IMO the pve/pvp split is prob 80-90% of mmo'ers are pve and 10-20% are the pvp people.  A hardcore pvp game caters to a very VERY small niche market that as most games like MO etc show, just do not work. MO did have crap for a budget though. These types of games have a low budget because there is such a small playerbase that investors don't wanna bother risking it on them since other than games like UO and Eve most games of that type don't make it.

    This arguement is so stupid. Its like saying all PVE games will fail because FFXIV was a strictly PVE focused game and it is considered the biggest MMO failure to date. Yet I bet you will argue it was other things that caused that game to fail and not it being focused on PVE. 

    You know the difference between me and you is; I acknowledge it had other flaws and probably could have been a decent game had it of worked those flaws out before release. The same can be said about Mortal and Darkfall. 

    As for the PVP and PVE split. Lets take a look at a very popular game WOW:

    116 PVP servers

    117 PVE servers

    Seems pretty even to me. Yes thats US servers couldn't be assed looking up EU and China. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon

    If you are the "lootee" you're probably not much of a fan of FFA PVP with full looting, however, if you are the "looter", probably makes you more of a fan.

    As I'm normally the lootee I generally eschew full loot games unless there are reasonable ways to control my level of risk.  (Hence why I enjoy playing EVE despite my carebear nature)

    I'll be stepping way out of my comfort zone by trying DF:UW this time around (I missed the first one) but I do so knowing full well what the design model is and won't have any cause to really complain if I find myself largely flat on my back and naked.

    image

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    If you are the "lootee" you're probably not much of a fan of FFA PVP with full looting, however, if you are the "looter", probably makes you more of a fan.

    As I'm normally the lootee I generally eschew full loot games unless there are reasonable ways to control my level of risk.  (Hence why I enjoy playing EVE despite my carebear nature)

    I'll be stepping way out of my comfort zone by trying DF:UW this time around (I missed the first one) but I do so knowing full well what the design model is and won't have any cause to really complain if I find myself largely flat on my back and naked.

    image

    At least your willing to give the game a shot and not shoot it down because it doesn't appeal to exactly what you enjoy or want. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn belleville, ILPosts: 1,710Member Uncommon

    Rules are usually made up with a consensus or by someone able to enforce them.  UO is still going, and it is pretty much seems to go agains your rules.  DF UW is an extension of DF, and has been out for a couple of years yet.  I'd be curious to know how long an MMO has to be out before the 'fail' happens.  Some games just become OBE (overcome by events), and pass to the netherworld.  CoH, and SWG come to mind.  Are those 'fail' games because they went under.  I'm inclined to say no.  They had their time, and faded into memory.

    I'm not saying DF UW will be one of those, but your rules aren't going to be the reason.  Your rule number one is the worst one.  While PvE is the greater part of most MMOs, it's the human interaction that has people playing it.  PvP doesn't just mean combat, although that's what it has morphed into.  It means competing in a variety of ways to be the best.  The best archer, the best cook, the most titles, etc, etc, etc.  If people truly wanted mostly PvE, they would play COOP games.

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • Thoric485Thoric485 SofiaPosts: 525Member

    Darkfall would've died in under a year if it was released in the state it was in 2009, as a PvE title. The FFA PvP is the only thing that's kept it alive for 3,5 years.

    "The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
    To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
    On we sweep with threshing oar, our only goal will be the western shore."
  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Fresno, CAPosts: 615Member
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by Siveria
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by Siveria

    So in case your wondering why I say Darkfall: uw will be dead after 3 months, its because of the rules below and the fact that its been proven that in todays mmo market ffa full loot pvp games just do not survive anymore sadly, Now you might argue about Eve Online, but that game was near death till Plex came out and people could play for free on someone else's dollar.

    Read the general mmorpg rules below. Especally number 3, because this is where games like mortal online and darkfall failed. Also before you say I dislike pvp, i don't, I don't mind if its forced, what I do dislike is the full loot aspect of it, well that and the fact max lv chars can pick on lowbie/newbies and get away with it.. usually, there are sometimes other players who will take time out of their day to protect said lowbies. Take the full loot away from darkfall UW and i'd defentally play. Don't mind so much about picking on lowbies, its not something I do and i feel people that do that are cowards who can't handle a real/even fight.

    Here are the rules below, and for the most part they are true. Number 3 is one of the major reasons why games like MO, DF etc fail. That and what I mentioned earlier.

    Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.
    Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
    Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.
    Rule#4 - The same as Rule#3 can be applied to RP - you cannot force it.
    Rule#5 - Before you get lippy, remember Rule#1.

    You really have no idea what your talking about. EVE wasn't almost dead before PLEX came out... that is just ignorance right there. 

    First off YOUR rules aren't remotely close to how MMO's should be designed as it alienates one group or the other. You need to look at Bartle and some of his work. He had it right on how MMO's should be developed and how games in general should strive to accomadate each type of gamers playstyle. 

    If you develop soley with PVE in mind you get games like SWTOR. If you develop with PVP soley in mind you end up with games like Mortal (lack of funding). You have to mix the two in order to be successful. WoW wouldn't be where it is today if it didn't have PvP as a main focus of game. EVE wouldn't be where it is today if PVP wasn't the main focus of the game. 

    No you need to design with both play styles in mind and mix the two naturally together, something akin to what Lineage 2 did. 

    If you alienate one style you won't be successful because your purposely alienating 50% of your obtainable playerbase. Yes  PVPers and PVEers are close to an even split. Mainly because most PVPers enjoy PVE as well and most PVEers enjoy PVP as well. 

    While RP can be put on the backburner for development as they are no where close to being a majority, there really is no reason to not accomadate them. All they usually want is decent animations on emotes, sitable chairs, Naming Policy with an easy way to report offensive names, and chat bubbles. Nothing major when you consider what PVEers and PVPers both demand. 

     

    TL;DR 

     

    Your rules are a result of ignorance. 

    Hate to tell you but the mmo market is mostly pve'ers and alot less of a pvper population. Look at Aion, Decent amount of players but maybe 10% of them on each faction ever shows up for the pvp events in the abyss, while the rest who are high enough in level/skill just stick to pve. Its liek this in almost all mmo's that have both game modes, onyl exception might be dark age of camelot, that games pvp setup was just godlike, why the hell no dev tries to copy it is beyond me. It was perfect you had your pve world, then you had your open faction vs faction 3 way pvp zone with stuff to do like take keeps and such, and the most important part which most games with pvp forget to add, is a reason to pvp, daoc's pvp unlocked a ton of new abilities and such for your characters, that you could not get any other way, its much better than handing pvp'ers items IMO.

    Also the rules are something I found on another forum, and they have been proven true more than once. IMO the pve/pvp split is prob 80-90% of mmo'ers are pve and 10-20% are the pvp people.  A hardcore pvp game caters to a very VERY small niche market that as most games like MO etc show, just do not work. MO did have crap for a budget though. These types of games have a low budget because there is such a small playerbase that investors don't wanna bother risking it on them since other than games like UO and Eve most games of that type don't make it.

    This arguement is so stupid. Its like saying all PVE games will fail because FFXIV was a strictly PVE focused game and it is considered the biggest MMO failure to date. Yet I bet you will argue it was other things that caused that game to fail and not it being focused on PVE. 

    You know the difference between me and you is; I acknowledge it had other flaws and probably could have been a decent game had it of worked those flaws out before release. The same can be said about Mortal and Darkfall. 

    As for the PVP and PVE split. Lets take a look at a very popular game WOW:

    116 PVP servers

    117 PVE servers

    Seems pretty even to me. Yes thats US servers couldn't be assed looking up EU and China. 

    As usual however, WoW is the anaomoly, not the standard. Look at any other major mmo out there and you'll see PvP servers outnumbered greatly by the PvE servers.

    PvP has been the minority in normal mmos since Trammel hit UO.

    Now, does this mean there is not a large group of PvP'ers out there that could make a PvP mmo just as successful as the major PvE mmos? If course not.

    EvE is a good start, but not quite there ( one big problem with EvE is many people feel disassociated from the game due to spaceships vs. humanoid avatars ).

    Even the ubiquitous UO survived until now solely because they took the focus off FFA PvP and opened the game to more than one style of play.

    I would guarantee you if you took the focus off of supporting the ganker playstyle in Darkfall and opened it up to ALL playstyles ( the explorer, the PvE'er, the commodities/market player, etc., etc.), Darkfall in my opinion would be a smash success and would at the very least be on par with EvE, if not surpassing ( again, the whole spaceship vs. avatar thing ) it completely.

    Everyone and their mother has tried copying WoW and failed. Only one has tried copying EvE ( Perpetuum Online ), and they copied it so blatantly ( everything right down to the menus, only replacing spaceships with robots ) as well as so crudely ( seriously, their coders suck almost as badly as Henrik's little team of idiots )  they failed.

    If you built a game with Darkfall's atmosphere and world with EvE's multi-playstyle gameplay  ( make your own damn UI and menus, etc. ), you'd have a hit. I'd play that shit in a second.

     

    EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  • ScizyrScizyr Minneapolis, MNPosts: 15Member

    I find it endlessly amusing how people think Darkfall's carebear ruleset is "hardcore."  Get rid of town towers, then we'll talk.

    The entire premise of this discussion is a Straw Man logical fallacy.  The genre of mmorpg's being in its infancy is having its growth stunted by this type of idiotic posturing.  Developers need to concentrate on AI.  It is revolting how easy every mmorpg is to play from a pve perspective.  There is no challenge whatsoever.  Everything my character does in pve can be scripted to run from a bot, very easily.  This should not be happening.  Mobs should gain skills fighting other mobs, they should use those skills against us, they should run away when low on health and group up when out-numbered.  They should attack us from behind and use obstacles in the environment to hide.  Mobs should respond to player interaction, where if I help one mob fight another mob, the first mob should gain favor towards me.  This could be extrapolated into factional warfare, where the mobs help me fend off enemy players and mobs from other factions.  Town npcs should be on schedules, and should require players to resupply their wares if needed. 

    But screw all that, let's just focus on how pve and pvp should always be segregated, ignoring the glaring fact that players are part of the environment.

    Threads like this(whose opinions I see mirrored by so many developers) are the reason why this industry is plagued with so much utter trash, why all the good players have retired(myself included, though I'm not good), and it makes me literally sick.

  • LorgarnLorgarn SwedenPosts: 371Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Siveria

    Now you might argue about Eve Online, but that game was near death till Plex came out and people could play for free on someone else's dollar.

    I wont argue with you but on one quite silly statement. The one above.

     

    Eve Online wasn't near death, it has never been near death. It is one of the few MMO's that actually has had a steady, albeit somewhat slow, increase in population since its launch. Its a rock compared to every other titles that crumble early after launch in terms of player population.

     

    So, stop saying silly things. ;) Allrighty then, with this being said. Keep on the discussion!

     

    (Note: To counter your obvious first thought: "Ah, he must be a fanboy!" - No, I'm not. I played Eve for about 3 months, years ago, it's not a game for me. BUT, I do not like games being described as something they clearly are not.)

  • RaxeonRaxeon cedar falls, IAPosts: 2,090Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thoric485

    Darkfall would've died in under a year if it was released in the state it was in 2009, as a PvE title. The FFA PvP is the only thing that's kept it alive for 3,5 years.

    true i think uw is going to try and make the pve more rewarding

  • SpiiderSpiider BinzPosts: 474Member Uncommon

    I hate rules. Seriously, who came up with those rules.

    Ze Greek game will probably fail but not because of reasons you mentioned. This game lacks so much more than just what you said. I still disagree with your train of thoughts. Respecfully.

    No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.

  • phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 696Member Uncommon

    100% made up opinion rules.

     

    I cannot write any other comment because I would hate to point out your stupidity and I must behave myself.

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  • JWTunaJWTuna PlymouthPosts: 23Member

    Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
    Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.

     

    Hard to understand what you are talking about. Open world pvp is offering an additional choice, it is entirely the opposite of 'forcing'. You must have a really shite time gaming if you think/feel that you are bieng forced to do anything...What you do in an MMORPG is your CHOICE, thats kinda the most basic concept of ROLE PLAYING (thats the 'R' and 'P' in RPG, the 'G' stands for game...Which, you know, is something done for fun...But I guess you missed that).

     

    In fact, it is players with this warped view of mmos that inflict 'forced' scenarios on other people ~ limiting choices whenever it is something you dont like, rather than just doing something else...

     

    Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.

     

    And this is just ass backwards...MMOs are about people interacting, be it cooperatively or killeratively (I made that word up, before any grammer nazies run off to check their dick-tionaries...). PVE is one of many components within a game world that underpin interaction, alongside trading, economies, parties, raids, guilds, factions, crafting, stories and lore, battlegrounds, cities, quest hubs, chat channels, and shoving pointy metal objects up the ass of people like OP... 

  • phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 696Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JWTuna

    Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
    Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.

     

    Hard to understand what you are talking about. Open world pvp is offering an additional choice, it is entirely the opposite of 'forcing'. You must have a really shite time gaming if you think/feel that you are bieng forced to do anything...What you do in an MMORPG is your CHOICE, thats kinda the most basic concept of ROLE PLAYING (thats the 'R' and 'P' in RPG, the 'G' stands for game...Which, you know, is something done for fun...But I guess you missed that).

     

    In fact, it is players with this warped view of mmos that inflict 'forced' scenarios on other people ~ limiting choices whenever it is something you dont like, rather than just doing something else...

     

    Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.

     

    And this is just ass backwards...MMOs are about people interacting, be it cooperatively or killeratively (I made that word up, before any grammer nazies run off to check their dick-tionaries...). PVE is one of many components within a game world that underpin interaction, alongside trading, economies, parties, raids, guilds, factions, crafting, stories and lore, battlegrounds, cities, quest hubs, chat channels, and shoving pointy metal objects up the ass of people like OP... 

    What this guy said.

    photo SIG_zpszteuyd0ejpg
  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member
    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by Siveria
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by Siveria

    So in case your wondering why I say Darkfall: uw will be dead after 3 months, its because of the rules below and the fact that its been proven that in todays mmo market ffa full loot pvp games just do not survive anymore sadly, Now you might argue about Eve Online, but that game was near death till Plex came out and people could play for free on someone else's dollar.

    Read the general mmorpg rules below. Especally number 3, because this is where games like mortal online and darkfall failed. Also before you say I dislike pvp, i don't, I don't mind if its forced, what I do dislike is the full loot aspect of it, well that and the fact max lv chars can pick on lowbie/newbies and get away with it.. usually, there are sometimes other players who will take time out of their day to protect said lowbies. Take the full loot away from darkfall UW and i'd defentally play. Don't mind so much about picking on lowbies, its not something I do and i feel people that do that are cowards who can't handle a real/even fight.

    Here are the rules below, and for the most part they are true. Number 3 is one of the major reasons why games like MO, DF etc fail. That and what I mentioned earlier.

    Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.
    Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
    Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.
    Rule#4 - The same as Rule#3 can be applied to RP - you cannot force it.
    Rule#5 - Before you get lippy, remember Rule#1.

    You really have no idea what your talking about. EVE wasn't almost dead before PLEX came out... that is just ignorance right there. 

    First off YOUR rules aren't remotely close to how MMO's should be designed as it alienates one group or the other. You need to look at Bartle and some of his work. He had it right on how MMO's should be developed and how games in general should strive to accomadate each type of gamers playstyle. 

    If you develop soley with PVE in mind you get games like SWTOR. If you develop with PVP soley in mind you end up with games like Mortal (lack of funding). You have to mix the two in order to be successful. WoW wouldn't be where it is today if it didn't have PvP as a main focus of game. EVE wouldn't be where it is today if PVP wasn't the main focus of the game. 

    No you need to design with both play styles in mind and mix the two naturally together, something akin to what Lineage 2 did. 

    If you alienate one style you won't be successful because your purposely alienating 50% of your obtainable playerbase. Yes  PVPers and PVEers are close to an even split. Mainly because most PVPers enjoy PVE as well and most PVEers enjoy PVP as well. 

    While RP can be put on the backburner for development as they are no where close to being a majority, there really is no reason to not accomadate them. All they usually want is decent animations on emotes, sitable chairs, Naming Policy with an easy way to report offensive names, and chat bubbles. Nothing major when you consider what PVEers and PVPers both demand. 

     

    TL;DR 

     

    Your rules are a result of ignorance. 

    Hate to tell you but the mmo market is mostly pve'ers and alot less of a pvper population. Look at Aion, Decent amount of players but maybe 10% of them on each faction ever shows up for the pvp events in the abyss, while the rest who are high enough in level/skill just stick to pve. Its liek this in almost all mmo's that have both game modes, onyl exception might be dark age of camelot, that games pvp setup was just godlike, why the hell no dev tries to copy it is beyond me. It was perfect you had your pve world, then you had your open faction vs faction 3 way pvp zone with stuff to do like take keeps and such, and the most important part which most games with pvp forget to add, is a reason to pvp, daoc's pvp unlocked a ton of new abilities and such for your characters, that you could not get any other way, its much better than handing pvp'ers items IMO.

    Also the rules are something I found on another forum, and they have been proven true more than once. IMO the pve/pvp split is prob 80-90% of mmo'ers are pve and 10-20% are the pvp people.  A hardcore pvp game caters to a very VERY small niche market that as most games like MO etc show, just do not work. MO did have crap for a budget though. These types of games have a low budget because there is such a small playerbase that investors don't wanna bother risking it on them since other than games like UO and Eve most games of that type don't make it.

    This arguement is so stupid. Its like saying all PVE games will fail because FFXIV was a strictly PVE focused game and it is considered the biggest MMO failure to date. Yet I bet you will argue it was other things that caused that game to fail and not it being focused on PVE. 

    You know the difference between me and you is; I acknowledge it had other flaws and probably could have been a decent game had it of worked those flaws out before release. The same can be said about Mortal and Darkfall. 

    As for the PVP and PVE split. Lets take a look at a very popular game WOW:

    116 PVP servers

    117 PVE servers

    Seems pretty even to me. Yes thats US servers couldn't be assed looking up EU and China. 

    As usual however, WoW is the anaomoly, not the standard. Look at any other major mmo out there and you'll see PvP servers outnumbered greatly by the PvE servers.

    PvP has been the minority in normal mmos since Trammel hit UO.

    Now, does this mean there is not a large group of PvP'ers out there that could make a PvP mmo just as successful as the major PvE mmos? If course not.

    EvE is a good start, but not quite there ( one big problem with EvE is many people feel disassociated from the game due to spaceships vs. humanoid avatars ).

    Even the ubiquitous UO survived until now solely because they took the focus off FFA PvP and opened the game to more than one style of play.

    I would guarantee you if you took the focus off of supporting the ganker playstyle in Darkfall and opened it up to ALL playstyles ( the explorer, the PvE'er, the commodities/market player, etc., etc.), Darkfall in my opinion would be a smash success and would at the very least be on par with EvE, if not surpassing ( again, the whole spaceship vs. avatar thing ) it completely.

    Everyone and their mother has tried copying WoW and failed. Only one has tried copying EvE ( Perpetuum Online ), and they copied it so blatantly ( everything right down to the menus, only replacing spaceships with robots ) as well as so crudely ( seriously, their coders suck almost as badly as Henrik's little team of idiots )  they failed.

    If you built a game with Darkfall's atmosphere and world with EvE's multi-playstyle gameplay  ( make your own damn UI and menus, etc. ), you'd have a hit. I'd play that shit in a second.

     

    Did you really just call statistical information an anomaly... Interesting. Okay how about RIFT. Sure it doesn't have as many PVP servers, but TRION came out with there statistical data and reported that conquest was there most popular feature by a large margin (3 way PvP environment). 

    However you slice it there is about an even split between the PvP and PVE acitivity in MMO's. 

    As for the rest of your post, you should read my initial post in this thread. You would come to the conclusion that I agree with you. There needs to be more than PVE or more than PVP to do in a game for it to be largely successful. You need both environments to grow and you need to do it with your own style or be labeled a clone and fail off that premise alone. 

    If RIFT would have stayed with its WOW clone development cycle instead of going its own way, it wouldn't still be alive off subs right now. It would have went the way of SWTOR or WAR very quickly. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by 123443211234

    Ya ya we get it you don't like darkfall.  So why are you still trolling our forums?  The first Darkfall lasted for 3 years and allowed the company to go from 12 employees to around 60 employess.  They opened an additional server (NA) six months after release.  Name another mmo company (other than eve)  that has expanded and grown their servers and company after release.

     

    This game will not fail, sure it may not have millions of subs, but it was never intended to.  You see Aventurine isn't in it for the money they are in it for a game they would like to play. 

     

    FFA full loot pvp is a niche, one that some people like myself find very fun and entertaining, in fact so much so that all of the currently released mmo play like steaming piles of crap to me and look to be blatant greedy money grabs by their devs.

     

    Just because you don't want to leave carebear land and actually experience a great game doesn't mean plenty of others won't.  Darkfall UW will be around years from now.

    I always get a chuckle when I see people use this line. You show me one single company that is not a non-profit or charitable organization that isn't out to make a buck.

    And as for this game never intending to have millions of subs, I think that down inside this company would LOVE to have a million subs, what company wouldn't?

    FFS.

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Siveria
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Planetside 2 is an MMORPG.

    I somehow doubt Planetside 2 is PVE :P

    In other words, the OP has no real idea what he's going on about :)

    Planetside 2 also sucks balls. And it is hardly a mmorpg, its missing most of the things that make an mmo"RPG" a mmorpg, like content, storyline, stuff to do, itemization.

    Well Planetside 2 isn't a MMORPG it's a MMOFPS, so sure it's missing all of things IF it was a MMORPG, but you see it isn't and provides what it is supose to provide it's players, non stop large scale FPS action, which makes it a MMOFPS image

    As for your topic, I slightly agree on that I feel that even with world pvp it has to be a option for players to choose to either go into pvp, type of being flagged for pvp or choose not to.

    But I do feel a MMORPG should have both PVP/PVE and I love world pvp aslong it's by choice and not forced on those who enjoy PVE mainly, I do enjoy PVE the most but the occasional PVP is more then welcome every now and then. Though still prefer pvp in other genre of games allot more.

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