Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
This pretty much sums up why ffa pvp mmo's fail.
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
Here is some proof that I think applies to my above . . . all game devs should watch this.
There is no perfect Pepsi
Plain, Spicey and Extra Chunky speghetti sauce.. . .
http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html
skip to 13:10
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
So if you state something completely false as a "rule", it makes it unquestionably correct?
your "rule1" is so obviously wrong its not even worth making an arguement against. as for the rest: dayz not only forced pvp but also full loot and was pretty sucessful. what about ps2, you don't play that because its forced pvp right? actually wait ps2 doesn't exist right?
not sure why im responding to such a stupid flamebait thread anyway.
My blog:
Well people play MMORPGs to play a role either in a bigger battle or in PVP, neither DF or MO really fulfill that, bugs aside. There is no driving force behind any of it.
Honestly you can say "go make a character, now go fight people in different arenas with different amounts of players" and you pretty much have the gameplay content in both the games without the grind. Infact that model would probably be more popular.
In both games the world means pretty much nothing. There is no starve on resources, there is no REAL PVP economy or market. It's very shallow. No one is running around DF as a merchant with a pack camel that needs protection. There are just the same people using the same weapon and spells fighting over a city that doesn't really matter.
As far as I know, CoD and Battlefield have many matches instead of one world to fight in.
I think the OP needs to define "fail".
The only time a game "fails" is if it earns less than is needed to repay it's loans and keep the servers running (and the dev team stil get paid monthly)..
Not having 1M or 500K players is not "failing".
This arguement is so stupid. Its like saying all PVE games will fail because FFXIV was a strictly PVE focused game and it is considered the biggest MMO failure to date. Yet I bet you will argue it was other things that caused that game to fail and not it being focused on PVE.
You know the difference between me and you is; I acknowledge it had other flaws and probably could have been a decent game had it of worked those flaws out before release. The same can be said about Mortal and Darkfall.
As for the PVP and PVE split. Lets take a look at a very popular game WOW:
116 PVP servers
117 PVE servers
Seems pretty even to me. Yes thats US servers couldn't be assed looking up EU and China.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
If you are the "lootee" you're probably not much of a fan of FFA PVP with full looting, however, if you are the "looter", probably makes you more of a fan.
As I'm normally the lootee I generally eschew full loot games unless there are reasonable ways to control my level of risk. (Hence why I enjoy playing EVE despite my carebear nature)
I'll be stepping way out of my comfort zone by trying DF:UW this time around (I missed the first one) but I do so knowing full well what the design model is and won't have any cause to really complain if I find myself largely flat on my back and naked.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
At least your willing to give the game a shot and not shoot it down because it doesn't appeal to exactly what you enjoy or want.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Rules are usually made up with a consensus or by someone able to enforce them. UO is still going, and it is pretty much seems to go agains your rules. DF UW is an extension of DF, and has been out for a couple of years yet. I'd be curious to know how long an MMO has to be out before the 'fail' happens. Some games just become OBE (overcome by events), and pass to the netherworld. CoH, and SWG come to mind. Are those 'fail' games because they went under. I'm inclined to say no. They had their time, and faded into memory.
I'm not saying DF UW will be one of those, but your rules aren't going to be the reason. Your rule number one is the worst one. While PvE is the greater part of most MMOs, it's the human interaction that has people playing it. PvP doesn't just mean combat, although that's what it has morphed into. It means competing in a variety of ways to be the best. The best archer, the best cook, the most titles, etc, etc, etc. If people truly wanted mostly PvE, they would play COOP games.
I self identify as a monkey.
Darkfall would've died in under a year if it was released in the state it was in 2009, as a PvE title. The FFA PvP is the only thing that's kept it alive for 3,5 years.
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
On we sweep with threshing oar, our only goal will be the western shore."
I find it endlessly amusing how people think Darkfall's carebear ruleset is "hardcore." Get rid of town towers, then we'll talk.
The entire premise of this discussion is a Straw Man logical fallacy. The genre of mmorpg's being in its infancy is having its growth stunted by this type of idiotic posturing. Developers need to concentrate on AI. It is revolting how easy every mmorpg is to play from a pve perspective. There is no challenge whatsoever. Everything my character does in pve can be scripted to run from a bot, very easily. This should not be happening. Mobs should gain skills fighting other mobs, they should use those skills against us, they should run away when low on health and group up when out-numbered. They should attack us from behind and use obstacles in the environment to hide. Mobs should respond to player interaction, where if I help one mob fight another mob, the first mob should gain favor towards me. This could be extrapolated into factional warfare, where the mobs help me fend off enemy players and mobs from other factions. Town npcs should be on schedules, and should require players to resupply their wares if needed.
But screw all that, let's just focus on how pve and pvp should always be segregated, ignoring the glaring fact that players are part of the environment.
Threads like this(whose opinions I see mirrored by so many developers) are the reason why this industry is plagued with so much utter trash, why all the good players have retired(myself included, though I'm not good), and it makes me literally sick.
I wont argue with you but on one quite silly statement. The one above.
Eve Online wasn't near death, it has never been near death. It is one of the few MMO's that actually has had a steady, albeit somewhat slow, increase in population since its launch. Its a rock compared to every other titles that crumble early after launch in terms of player population.
So, stop saying silly things.
Allrighty then, with this being said. Keep on the discussion!
(Note: To counter your obvious first thought: "Ah, he must be a fanboy!" - No, I'm not. I played Eve for about 3 months, years ago, it's not a game for me. BUT, I do not like games being described as something they clearly are not.)
Tweet at me - Visit my website
true i think uw is going to try and make the pve more rewarding
I hate rules. Seriously, who came up with those rules.
Ze Greek game will probably fail but not because of reasons you mentioned. This game lacks so much more than just what you said. I still disagree with your train of thoughts. Respecfully.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
100% made up opinion rules.
I cannot write any other comment because I would hate to point out your stupidity and I must behave myself.
Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.
Hard to understand what you are talking about. Open world pvp is offering an additional choice, it is entirely the opposite of 'forcing'. You must have a really shite time gaming if you think/feel that you are bieng forced to do anything...What you do in an MMORPG is your CHOICE, thats kinda the most basic concept of ROLE PLAYING (thats the 'R' and 'P' in RPG, the 'G' stands for game...Which, you know, is something done for fun...But I guess you missed that).
In fact, it is players with this warped view of mmos that inflict 'forced' scenarios on other people ~ limiting choices whenever it is something you dont like, rather than just doing something else...
Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.
And this is just ass backwards...MMOs are about people interacting, be it cooperatively or killeratively (I made that word up, before any grammer nazies run off to check their dick-tionaries...). PVE is one of many components within a game world that underpin interaction, alongside trading, economies, parties, raids, guilds, factions, crafting, stories and lore, battlegrounds, cities, quest hubs, chat channels, and shoving pointy metal objects up the ass of people like OP...
What this guy said.
Did you really just call statistical information an anomaly... Interesting. Okay how about RIFT. Sure it doesn't have as many PVP servers, but TRION came out with there statistical data and reported that conquest was there most popular feature by a large margin (3 way PvP environment).
However you slice it there is about an even split between the PvP and PVE acitivity in MMO's.
As for the rest of your post, you should read my initial post in this thread. You would come to the conclusion that I agree with you. There needs to be more than PVE or more than PVP to do in a game for it to be largely successful. You need both environments to grow and you need to do it with your own style or be labeled a clone and fail off that premise alone.
If RIFT would have stayed with its WOW clone development cycle instead of going its own way, it wouldn't still be alive off subs right now. It would have went the way of SWTOR or WAR very quickly.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I always get a chuckle when I see people use this line. You show me one single company that is not a non-profit or charitable organization that isn't out to make a buck.
And as for this game never intending to have millions of subs, I think that down inside this company would LOVE to have a million subs, what company wouldn't?
FFS.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Express your opinion
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/371172/Poll-Most-hated-MMORPG.html
Well Planetside 2 isn't a MMORPG it's a MMOFPS, so sure it's missing all of things IF it was a MMORPG, but you see it isn't and provides what it is supose to provide it's players, non stop large scale FPS action, which makes it a MMOFPS
As for your topic, I slightly agree on that I feel that even with world pvp it has to be a option for players to choose to either go into pvp, type of being flagged for pvp or choose not to.
But I do feel a MMORPG should have both PVP/PVE and I love world pvp aslong it's by choice and not forced on those who enjoy PVE mainly, I do enjoy PVE the most but the occasional PVP is more then welcome every now and then. Though still prefer pvp in other genre of games allot more.
So you support greed then. Yes, Aventurine makes a tidy profit, NO they are not out for the greedy money grab. If they were they would not make statements like "we are making the game we want to play". They would simply copy all of the other crappy wow clone new f2p models like all the other trash out there.
There is a big difference between being greedy and making a profit. The be all end all for Aventurine is not to make hundreds of milliions and grow their company to 1000's of employess. It is merely to "make the game they want to play".
Your rational is severly flawed there is a large difference between a for profit and a greedy for profit. This can be found in not only the way they treat their employees within the company, but also how they treat their customers and their products. What you seem to be saying is that only "walmart" style games are worth making and investing in. That is simply not true and only shows your own arrogance and ignorance of people's motivations. Greed does not equal better, it almost always means worse.
Not really until Trammel came out...That is when it gained the most subs and held onto them.....The majority of gamers don't want to play games where at any given second someone can take everything they have in the blink of an eye and to have to pay for it then forget it.
-Almerel
Hello my old friend.