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This pretty much sums up why ffa pvp mmo's fail.
Siveria
Member UncommonPosts: 1,419
So in case your wondering why I say Darkfall: uw will be dead after 3 months, its because of the rules below and the fact that its been proven that in todays mmo market ffa full loot pvp games just do not survive anymore sadly, Now you might argue about Eve Online, but that game was near death till Plex came out and people could play for free on someone else's dollar.
Read the general mmorpg rules below. Especally number 3, because this is where games like mortal online and darkfall failed. Also before you say I dislike pvp, i don't, I don't mind if its forced, what I do dislike is the full loot aspect of it, well that and the fact max lv chars can pick on lowbie/newbies and get away with it.. usually, there are sometimes other players who will take time out of their day to protect said lowbies. Take the full loot away from darkfall UW and i'd defentally play. Don't mind so much about picking on lowbies, its not something I do and i feel people that do that are cowards who can't handle a real/even fight.
Here are the rules below, and for the most part they are true. Number 3 is one of the major reasons why games like MO, DF etc fail. That and what I mentioned earlier.
Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.
Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.
Rule#4 - The same as Rule#3 can be applied to RP - you cannot force it.
Rule#5 - Before you get lippy, remember Rule#1.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Comments
Ya ya we get it you don't like darkfall. So why are you still trolling our forums? The first Darkfall lasted for 3 years and allowed the company to go from 12 employees to around 60 employess. They opened an additional server (NA) six months after release. Name another mmo company (other than eve) that has expanded and grown their servers and company after release.
This game will not fail, sure it may not have millions of subs, but it was never intended to. You see Aventurine isn't in it for the money they are in it for a game they would like to play.
FFA full loot pvp is a niche, one that some people like myself find very fun and entertaining, in fact so much so that all of the currently released mmo play like steaming piles of crap to me and look to be blatant greedy money grabs by their devs.
Just because you don't want to leave carebear land and actually experience a great game doesn't mean plenty of others won't. Darkfall UW will be around years from now.
Darkfall was the best game experience for me. Your argument is invalid.
Ok so you don't like full loot, but guess what.. there are people who are!
Planetside 2 is an MMORPG.
I somehow doubt Planetside 2 is PVE :P
In other words, the OP has no real idea what he's going on about
I think Darkfall and MO are cases where there is no content outside other players.
I don't think the issue is FFA PVP. This kinda harkens back to other FFA games like UO, that had lots of quest content and dungeon content.
I really feel like games that label themselves "sandboxes" are just making an excuse to have very barren game systems. EvE is an example of a real sandbox game, and it's very successful.
The fact of the matter is, outside of a handful of quests, like 15 or so. Darkfall has no story, no real dungeons, no bosses, no businesses, no real progression or uniqueness. It's just a bunch of people slamming their heads against one another. That's not really a game.
In fact the player usually has to go way out of their way to experience any other type of gameplay in Darkfall.
Leading your thesis with dubious assertions.
What's Rule 1 say about that?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
These rules are bogus. Things don't always have the be a certain way. There is no such thing as "forced pvp" just as there is no such thing as "forced pve." These are all games and you play the game following the rules of that game.It can involve fighting against A.I or fighting against other players and if you don't like the rules than you can choose a different game to play.
I don't know what people consider "dead" now-a-days. A game that recieves huge praise all over the internet "Ultima Online" only had about 300k subscribers at its peak. I think its even ok for a game to have 100k or even 50k players active at a time. Maybe even less and just have one server, lol. It can still be a successfull game and fun for the people who play it.
yeah UO went F2P after 3 months and then went belly up. asheron's call never really got that popular either.
on a serious note, i am coming to the conclusion that full loot pvp is about the only pvp worth doing. pvp in shadowbane / uo was exciting because if you messed up you lost EVERYTHING (well not everything in shadowbane, but even inventory only loot added a good amount of excitement). mindless pvp with no consequences puts me to sleep. i thought that maybe i could be content with gw2's pvp model but unfortunately nothing is the same. once you have a taste of the hard stuff there's no going back i guess. oh well. the real reason these games tend to flop after a short time is that their budgets are typically very low and the workmanship is fairly shoddy. bugs brought down shadowbane, not gameplay.
[mod edit]
That was a totally diffrent market back then, the rules moreso apply to the current market. Personally about the full looting, I think you shouldn't be able to loot anyone period. Also the mmorpg community was much MUCH more mature than they are today in general back then. Now a days no one ever cares or shows consideration for their fellow player, except the rare instances of players like me. in games with open pvp I usually never attack lowbies unless they start with me first and won't stop. In one game i used to always visit the lowbies in their factions zone on my high lv but would never attack unless provoked, they eventually just started to leave me alone when i was visiting. That and I use to always pk the gold farming bots, since they would charge at me like i was a npc monster the second they see me, and in this game it was really easy to tell a bot from a player just by movement.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Again both those games (UO and AC) had lots of content and complicated game systems outside of just PVP.
Planetside 2 was very very recently released.
Please explain why Planetside 2 - the sequel to a successful PVP ONLY MMORPG, will fail because it breaks your rules the same way its successful predecessor did.
Edit: And be quick about it, I can't wait to hear your next bullshit reason
You really have no idea what your talking about. EVE wasn't almost dead before PLEX came out... that is just ignorance right there.
First off YOUR rules aren't remotely close to how MMO's should be designed as it alienates one group or the other. You need to look at Bartle and some of his work. He had it right on how MMO's should be developed and how games in general should strive to accomadate each type of gamers playstyle.
If you develop soley with PVE in mind you get games like SWTOR. If you develop with PVP soley in mind you end up with games like Mortal (lack of funding). You have to mix the two in order to be successful. WoW wouldn't be where it is today if it didn't have PvP as a main focus of the game. EVE wouldn't be where it is today if PVP wasn't the main focus of the game.
No you need to design with both play styles in mind and mix the two naturally together, something akin to what Lineage 2 did, or what ArcheAge is currently doing.
If you alienate one style you won't be successful because your purposely alienating 50% of your obtainable playerbase. Yes PVPers and PVEers are close to an even split. Mainly because most PVPers enjoy PVE as well and most PVEers enjoy PVP as well.
While RP can be put on the backburner for development as they are no where close to being a majority, there really is no reason to not accomadate them. All they usually want is decent animations on emotes, sitable chairs, Naming Policy with an easy way to report offensive names, and chat bubbles. Nothing major when you consider what PVEers and PVPers both demand.
TL;DR
Your rules are a result of ignorance.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Planetside 2 also sucks balls. And it is hardly a mmorpg, its missing most of the things that make an mmo"RPG" a mmorpg, like content, storyline, stuff to do, itemization.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
It did better after the PvE rule set was implemented. They reached their peak of 250,000 people during that time. I thought it was 278,000, but Wikipedia never lies.
Eve seems pretty successful. It took a lot of time, but nobody considers Eve a failure. I don't know that I'd call Darkfall a failure either, since they made enough money to write another game, even if it uses a lot of assets from an existing game.
I don't think the OP's premise is valid.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So you can't have a role playing game without items?
You can't have an RPG without a set storyline?
and whether or not Planetside 2 performs the sexual act you mention or not, it really has no affect on the success of a FFA PVP game, nor Darkfall UW in any way.
In other words, I seriously hope you are joking because I hate to think you actually believe in such reasoning.
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
I don't think it's invalid, but it doesn't hit on any issues. It's more a history lesson, then saying "It will fail cause I think the others have failed"
I don't believe that people should stop making FFA games cause of history, since as it's been indicated FFA games are alive and well. But the OP never goes into detail about why they feel it's a failure.
Planetside (and PS2) are MMOFPS not MMORPG.
Semantics; I know, right!
Don't worry guys, the Valient White Knight Siveria will save us from ourselves.
Hate to tell you but the mmo market is mostly pve'ers and alot less of a pvper population. Look at Aion, Decent amount of players but maybe 10% of them on each faction ever shows up for the pvp events in the abyss, while the rest who are high enough in level/skill just stick to pve. Its liek this in almost all mmo's that have both game modes, onyl exception might be dark age of camelot, that games pvp setup was just godlike, why the hell no dev tries to copy it is beyond me. It was perfect you had your pve world, then you had your open faction vs faction 3 way pvp zone with stuff to do like take keeps and such, and the most important part which most games with pvp forget to add, is a reason to pvp, daoc's pvp unlocked a ton of new abilities and such for your characters, that you could not get any other way, its much better than handing pvp'ers items IMO.
Also the rules are something I found on another forum, and they have been proven true more than once. IMO the pve/pvp split is prob 80-90% of mmo'ers are pve and 10-20% are the pvp people. A hardcore pvp game caters to a very VERY small niche market that as most games like MO etc show, just do not work. MO did have crap for a budget though. These types of games have a low budget because there is such a small playerbase that investors don't wanna bother risking it on them since other than games like UO and Eve most games of that type don't make it.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
[mod edit]
A quick scan of your post history gives a pretty clear indication of your dislike of DF:UW style of gameplay... My question is, why do you feel the need to go out of your way to "hate" on a style of gameplay that you don't like, but has absolutely no impact on you if you don't play the game? It's certainly not like every game coming out is seeing the success of the full loot pvp style and copying it. In other posts you talk about how (basically) stupid and immature the people who like full loot pvp are, but you're so intolerant of anything you don't like that you feel the need to jump all over DF:UW. (pot, kettle, black, anyone?) I'm pretty sure AV and everyone who plays DF/DF:UW fully admits it's a niche market for a small group of people. Why do you feel the need to try and diminish their enjoyment of it?
I happen to think that a "PvE" ruleset server (with more "friendly" loot/PvP) rules would suceed in DF:UW, but that's just not AV's style so I don't think it will happen.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Flaunting your consideration for other players to show off your good nature is a sign of hubris. I wish people wouldn't post things like this. Just do good for the sake of it.
It pretty much comes down to opinion. Fail never means the same thing to the individual. Im sure in the OPs mind..DF 2 will fail even if it gains 6 mill subs and steadily keeps them for 20 years ( <---an example, dont knock me for using some hyperbole). Really though whats the point of even defending DF...your not gonna change the OPs opinion and he isnt gonna change yours. Might as well let the thread die. Unless you like getting trolled, then by all means continue
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
(S)he didn't have to go into detail as the OP spelled it out plain as day in there post. PvP focused games don't succeed because they are PvP focused. Which is entirely untrue and not the reason games like MO and Darkfall didn't do as well as they should have.
It was poor planning, poor development, bad coding, and mainly a lack of funding and talent.
Henrick is why Mortal failed, the guy has no clue how to run a development team or how to find true talent to bring ideas to life. Mortal failed as soon as they released the dogs to the CBTs and everyone realized it was a broken monstrocity. It had nothing to do with the PVP or its focus on PVP, but everything to do with bugs and broken mechanics/false promises.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I'd say I am more on the lines of a Neutral Grey-ish Knight actually. Only main issue I/others have with df that will turn them away is the full looting, I am telling you if that was removed they would gain alot more subs than they would lose by pissing off the very few people who are all for full looting. It would bve sort of a middle ground, I don't mind being ganked if I don't lose my gear, even if you just keep what you have equipped and they can loot everything else would be good. that way you cannot be stripped naked and left with nothing. Just be sure to be smart enough to bank your money before you leave town.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!