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Aventurine "gets it". I wish all MMO devs did.

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Comments

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    @ madness Everyone gets the loot/chest in gw2. The gw2 version is no wait in line.

    Ah, I knew about the DEs but didn't know about the dungeons doing that as well.

    Still, it wouldn't fix the issue of bosses becoming a zergfest and thus making them far less challenging/epic. Otherwise they'd have to make some pretty brutal boss à la FFXI. At least there would be no waiting lines.

    Zerging wasn't an issue in DAoC for a few reasons.

    The AI was dynamic, in a sense. The dragon for example. If 200 people charged straight into him, he'd fly into the air and firebomb the raid, insta killing most of it. If only 30 people attacked he'd become overconfident and try to kill them with his tail and teeth. If they started using too much ranged damage, he'd use his breath.

    So, between the various triggers on various tactics, and the need to balance raid numbers vs loot distribution, it kept people from just zerging the mobs. What's more, since raids weren't tierred anyone could join any raid at any time. The loot was pretty, but not radically better than what crafters could make, so there weren't constantly lines for raid bosses.

  • FluteFlute WellingtonPosts: 434Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

     

    I'm glad to see that Aventurine, one of the only companies that sees instances for what they are, a crutch, is also one of the ONLY MMO companies to GROW after launch in the last 8 years,

     

    Absolutely.  The concept of limited access instances only appeared because of failure of designers to develop better systems to counter the boss camping that occurred in some of the earlier MMOS in shared dungeons.

     

    Of all the games companies out there, the two independents who seem to be "getting it" and growing still are CCP and Aventurine, who have been smart enough to watch and learn off CCP.  I hope other independent games companies do the same, and give us games worth playing rather than yet another variant of WoW, which is of course itself a derivative of the games that came before it.

  • ZigZagsZigZags Modesto, CAPosts: 328Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    So no high resolution textures then?

    I think most old school MMOers who have been playing MMOs for 15 + years and recognize the best days were years ago would sacrifice Hi Res textures for better game mechanics any day.

     

    Now: Skyrim
    Later: ?
    Played: M59, UO, EQ, Runescape, DAOC, SB, EQ2, WoW, EVE, Darkfall, AoC, FFXI, FFXIV, WAR, SWTOR
    BOYCOTTING: EA/BioWare/Origin/SOE

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,542Member Uncommon

    Aventurine has cute ideas, but I doubt their execution. I don't see any reason why this time it would go better. Everyone seems to have forgotten how they broke promise after promise.  What gameplay have you seen so far that takes away your doubts?

    As for instanced or not. Instancing is not just to fix the mob camping. It is also used to tell story in a way that would not always work in an open world.

    Then I saw some comments about players making their own story. Yeah, some players want that. But Darkfall, forget it. Main story in Darkfall will be 'Trollollollollol!' Because Aventurine doesn't understand why EVE became popular and Darkfall didn't.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by ZigZags
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    So no high resolution textures then?

    I think most old school MMOers who have been playing MMOs for 15 + years and recognize the best days were years ago would sacrifice Hi Res textures for better game mechanics any day

    ....except the ones that just dropped 500 bones for a new GPU?  You're probably right, as a general rule.

    But that cutting edge hardware watch me pose is awfully addictive, guys have been doing that much longer than PC or Mac. Stereos in the 70s, Cadillacs in the 50s...

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • RedempRedemp Hot Springs, ARPosts: 1,042Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by ZigZags
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    So no high resolution textures then?

    I think most old school MMOers who have been playing MMOs for 15 + years and recognize the best days were years ago would sacrifice Hi Res textures for better game mechanics any day

    ....except the ones that just dropped 500 bones for a new GPU?  You're probably right, as a general rule.

    But that cutting edge hardware watch me pose is awfully addictive, guys have been doing that much longer than PC or Mac. Stereos in the 70s, Cadillacs in the 50s...

     Yeah .. don't touch my graphics, I've grown accustom to my pretty mmo's. Realisticly we shouldn't have to sacrafice appearance for depth or quality. I don't think newer games are worse than the titles we cut our teeth on, we've just grown with the market and the first few will never be duplicated.

     

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    I know this thread is about instancing but everytime I see it poping up I cringe at the title.  AV gets instancing but it does not get crafting and economy.  I don't think they care though.  They want a pvp deathmatch and they got it.  
  • chryseschryses LondonPosts: 1,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by tawess

    Ofc he says that, what else can he do seeing has his first game pretty much only had that aspect to save it from it self (and if i gather the feedback on these forums it did not do that very well either) the man i smart enough to know his market. It is a bit like when the makers of Rift did that whoke "this is not Azeroth" thing.

     

    But then again i seem to remmeber the same sort of buzz for DF 1 and that did not turn out so well (again according to the lovley crowd on Mmorpg) but if it will shut a part of the sandbox crowd that have not had their itch scratched since UO up i am fairly happy with that.

     

    Just be careful of the hypetrain, it will only let you down.


    The MMORPG crowd was always hypercritical in regards to Darkfall. Pre release they derailed every single thread screaming "VAPORWARE!" When the game turned out to be real they collectively went out of their way to bash every aspect of the game, despite it being obvious that they hadn't played it.

    In reality, Darkfall did quite well for itself. Aventurine went from 20 devs to currently having 60 devs. They moved into a bigger building, opened a second server, completed 3 free expansions, and are now about to relaunch the game. It's a much better success story than just about every AAA WoW clone of the last 8 years.

     

    Originally posted by karmath
    Say what you will about AV, but no one can fault them for actualy trying to do something different and stick to their guns.

    One of the reasons the game was developed so many times was because every publisher that approached them tried to get them to add in instances and take out full loot. They stuck to their vision.

    They are certainly going about it the right way  as well.  Start with a small team and budget, develop a product and culture and then grow organically.  Makes you wonder what we would have if someone dropped 100 million and 400 devs on their doorstep like so many other games (SWTOR) had. 

    I hardly played the first DF but I am definitely buying this one if its good enough.  It fits my vision of an MMO, don't know why I didn't play the first game, think I was into EvE then.

    They are never going to have graphics like AoC but the open world makes up for it more than anything.  AoC was fun for me but the load screens did my head in and made me quit.

     

  • wrekognizewrekognize salt lake city, UTPosts: 384Member

    What have been some of the main focuses of recent monsters, GW2 and TOR. Story, story and story..And graphics. And instancing.

    Give me a world where I know my friend is in the same world I am, even if we're not partied. A world where we can create the stories based on our actions. It's a simple concept that next to no larger company have tried. Thank God AV has the balls to do it.

     

    ..

  • KubalayKubalay Tampa, FLPosts: 3Member

    Tasos is indeed a god and savior for gamers. I been waiting for DF 2.0 since DF 1.0 was turned off. I love and always will love and support this game and company.

     

    Full loot Pvp is the only type of MMO I can enjoy.

     

    Signed,

    King Kubalay of Kubalay.net

    God of Agon and Slayer of Elitists.

  • RaxeonRaxeon cedar falls, IAPosts: 2,090Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    I know this thread is about instancing but everytime I see it poping up I cringe at the title.  AV gets instancing but it does not get crafting and economy.  I don't think they care though.  They want a pvp deathmatch and they got it.  

    the crating wasnt the complaint of most players so they are only changing it some

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by Raxeon
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    I know this thread is about instancing but everytime I see it poping up I cringe at the title.  AV gets instancing but it does not get crafting and economy.  I don't think they care though.  They want a pvp deathmatch and they got it.  

    the crating wasnt the complaint of most players so they are only changing it some

    I disagree.  It was always a complaint of most of the players.  It was ignored and most left.  What was left was barebones pvp players.  Darkfall was always talked about as being much more.

  • zimikezimike Dayton, TXPosts: 129Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Raxeon
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    I know this thread is about instancing but everytime I see it poping up I cringe at the title.  AV gets instancing but it does not get crafting and economy.  I don't think they care though.  They want a pvp deathmatch and they got it.  

    the crating wasnt the complaint of most players so they are only changing it some

     I must be one of those weird guys who enjoyed the previous crafting system. It took me months, if not years to get many of the skills up in the beginning. Having to go out to hunt for certain components, then bring them back to craft something was fun and gave me extra stuff to do.

     PvP seems to be the top selling point for this game, but honestly, I loved the PvE part a lot more in some respects. The AI was fun to go up against, I could kill different types of mobs for hours and not get bored.

    The loot system was equally rewarding. You always had a changes to get something epic every now and then, even off trash mobs. Having that gamble element to the loot tables just added to the excitement.

    At the end of the day, I would bring back my loot, craft stuff, take what I needed and donate the rest to the clan.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by zimike
    Originally posted by Raxeon
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    I know this thread is about instancing but everytime I see it poping up I cringe at the title.  AV gets instancing but it does not get crafting and economy.  I don't think they care though.  They want a pvp deathmatch and they got it.  

    the crating wasnt the complaint of most players so they are only changing it some

     I must be one of those weird guys who enjoyed the previous crafting system. It took me months, if not years to get many of the skills up in the beginning. Having to go out to hunt for certain components, then bring them back to craft something was fun and gave me extra stuff to do.

     PvP seems to be the top selling point for this game, but honestly, I loved the PvE part a lot more in some respects. The AI was fun to go up against, I could kill different types of mobs for hours and not get bored.

    The loot system was equally rewarding. You always had a changes to get something epic every now and then, even off trash mobs. Having that gamble element to the loot tables just added to the excitement.

    At the end of the day, I would bring back my loot, craft stuff, take what I needed and donate the rest to the clan.

    The problem was/is that everyone could craft anything.  Everyone was self reliant.  The only real market out there was for mats cuz everyone needed them.  I was able to make my own weapon, armour and craft the enchants for them.  That is a flawed system.  I should need to depend on others so i have to buy from them for some other things.  

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Im gonna give it a shot, df 1 was a turd, I hope they polished up enough this time. Yeah its more like mortal combat/streetfighter than a rpg.

    If you thought DF was a turd, then DF:UW is just a turd with glitter on it.

    The core gameplay hasn't changed.

    The core gameplay is what was redesigned...

    Not really, they have limited character power to archtypes / classes (kind of like how TSW achieves it) and improved the UI. Everything else is pretty much the same.

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member Common
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

    Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

    I know it isn't and its sad. I feel that the points I mentioned are the root of the cause of the effects that you mentioned. 

    More like I view your list as rote repetition, the official Party Line of the Sandpark Party. :shrug:  It's clear that most people who "hate instancing" aren't even terribly clear on why they should hate it; they just know that they're supposed to.  The reactionary element doesn't help either.   "Open world 1999 RAWR!" 

    Instances are just bad, mmkay, the DF devs told me so!

    Since we're in the DF forum...well...obviously most of the reflex RAWRs come from folks who support DF's choices.  Is that surprising?  If you trot over to WoW's forums, most discussions of game design tend to agree with Blizzard.  (That may be the home of the Classic Themepark Party.)

    But if you toss ideology aside, it's just one possible game design, not possible to feel hatred for it.  The ideology just comes from fanboys--the same guys that float from game to game trying to make all new titles Just Like WoW...except they're wearing DF t-shirts (or UO or EVE t-shirts) over here.

    I dislike instancing. It's for people who need some guranteed reward. They are instantly transported to their own little world where everything is handed to them. They could not imagine a dungeon so hard that you have to have multiple, unaffiliated, parties in it for anyone to survive in it. They can't imagine an area so difficult that you have to sneak by everything in it because no matter of good your party is you stand no chance. When a party enters an instance they do so just to collect their rewards so that they can get a piece of gear, which will be replaced by  an instance released at a future date, or to bring their loot back to the MMOWE (MMO World Economy), which is the only thing massive about their game. They can't stand anything that is left to luck or that everyone doesn't have equal access too. In an MMO without instances then some people will get lucky and some will not. Not everyone will participate in the same events. It's a more heterogenous experience.

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member Common
    Originally posted by botrytis

    People are also missing the idea, that an instance dungeon, is all for YOUR group. Not for others but for your group. All the drops, all the mobs, all the bosses. That is why in GW2, they instanced the dungeons. Wouldn't you hate going into an open dungeon hoping to get a drop from a particular boss and the boss is dead already and the spawn rate is slow - so your group has to camp there and wait.

     

    This is NOT the only way open worlds work. A mob could spawn only when a certain item is collected by each member who wants to fight the mob. It may take each member of the group a week to collect this item. That's just one way it could work. There are so many other ways.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Im gonna give it a shot, df 1 was a turd, I hope they polished up enough this time. Yeah its more like mortal combat/streetfighter than a rpg.

    If you thought DF was a turd, then DF:UW is just a turd with glitter on it.

    The core gameplay hasn't changed.

    The core gameplay is what was redesigned...

    Not really, they have limited character power to archtypes / classes (kind of like how TSW achieves it) and improved the UI. Everything else is pretty much the same.

    If you say so, but all pre release information says that you are almost entirely wrong.

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,296Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Magiknight
    Originally posted by botrytis

    People are also missing the idea, that an instance dungeon, is all for YOUR group. Not for others but for your group. All the drops, all the mobs, all the bosses. That is why in GW2, they instanced the dungeons. Wouldn't you hate going into an open dungeon hoping to get a drop from a particular boss and the boss is dead already and the spawn rate is slow - so your group has to camp there and wait.

     

    This is NOT the only way open worlds work. A mob could spawn only when a certain item is collected by each member who wants to fight the mob. It may take each member of the group a week to collect this item. That's just one way it could work. There are so many other ways.

    EQ1 was pretty much just that, and there are only so many ways in which you can do it, when it gets down to it, its either anyone can loot the corpse or only those who did the most damage, or laid the final blow, or worse, the first blow. There is a very good reason why games that came after EQ1 had instanced dungeons, its because players complained about spawn camping and people interfering with specific bosses etc that they needed. Sure keep the Open World PVP, thats what DF is all about, but if there are going to be npc boss fights etc, dungeons, then instance them, or their a waste of time, because someone will almost always come along and interfere, which is not a good thing no matter how much spin you try to put on it.image

  • RaxeonRaxeon cedar falls, IAPosts: 2,090Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by Magiknight
    Originally posted by botrytis

    People are also missing the idea, that an instance dungeon, is all for YOUR group. Not for others but for your group. All the drops, all the mobs, all the bosses. That is why in GW2, they instanced the dungeons. Wouldn't you hate going into an open dungeon hoping to get a drop from a particular boss and the boss is dead already and the spawn rate is slow - so your group has to camp there and wait.

     

    This is NOT the only way open worlds work. A mob could spawn only when a certain item is collected by each member who wants to fight the mob. It may take each member of the group a week to collect this item. That's just one way it could work. There are so many other ways.

    EQ1 was pretty much just that, and there are only so many ways in which you can do it, when it gets down to it, its either anyone can loot the corpse or only those who did the most damage, or laid the final blow, or worse, the first blow. There is a very good reason why games that came after EQ1 had instanced dungeons, its because players complained about spawn camping and people interfering with specific bosses etc that they needed. Sure keep the Open World PVP, thats what DF is all about, but if there are going to be npc boss fights etc, dungeons, then instance them, or their a waste of time, because someone will almost always come along and interfere, which is not a good thing no matter how much spin you try to put on it.image

    if they interfer kill them its simple

  • stonyleinstonylein ViennaPosts: 59Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Redemp
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by ZigZags
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    So no high resolution textures then?

    I think most old school MMOers who have been playing MMOs for 15 + years and recognize the best days were years ago would sacrifice Hi Res textures for better game mechanics any day

    ....except the ones that just dropped 500 bones for a new GPU?  You're probably right, as a general rule.

    But that cutting edge hardware watch me pose is awfully addictive, guys have been doing that much longer than PC or Mac. Stereos in the 70s, Cadillacs in the 50s...

     Yeah .. don't touch my graphics, I've grown accustom to my pretty mmo's. Realisticly we shouldn't have to sacrafice appearance for depth or quality. I don't think newer games are worse than the titles we cut our teeth on, we've just grown with the market and the first few will never be duplicated.

     

    i wouldnt want to sacrifice appearance for quality either, sadly there is no quality in the other games that only offer appearance. so i have to chose between the two, and im chosing the latter.

  • DarthRaidenDarthRaiden gdfgfPosts: 4,333Member

    How come a single minecraft server with blocky 80's graphics has more players online then most polished games listed here ?

    Gameplay >.<

    -----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
    $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
    -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

    "There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by Magiknight
    Originally posted by botrytis

    People are also missing the idea, that an instance dungeon, is all for YOUR group. Not for others but for your group. All the drops, all the mobs, all the bosses. That is why in GW2, they instanced the dungeons. Wouldn't you hate going into an open dungeon hoping to get a drop from a particular boss and the boss is dead already and the spawn rate is slow - so your group has to camp there and wait.

     

    This is NOT the only way open worlds work. A mob could spawn only when a certain item is collected by each member who wants to fight the mob. It may take each member of the group a week to collect this item. That's just one way it could work. There are so many other ways.

    There is a very good reason why games that came after EQ1 had instanced dungeons

    Yes, because most modern MMO devs are clueless code monkies that don't get to design their own games. Publishers design the games, and by design I mean, they instruct people to copy WoW. And WoW has instances, because THEIR designers copied EQ point for point, flaw for flaw, and instead of improving it, just slapped instances over the flawed game mechanics.

    You people need to realize other MMOs existed before WoW than EQ. DAoC never had need of instances.

  • stonyleinstonylein ViennaPosts: 59Member Uncommon
    exactly, same reason why unholy wars will succeed.
  • DerrosDerros Posts: 1,077Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by Magiknight
    Originally posted by botrytis

    People are also missing the idea, that an instance dungeon, is all for YOUR group. Not for others but for your group. All the drops, all the mobs, all the bosses. That is why in GW2, they instanced the dungeons. Wouldn't you hate going into an open dungeon hoping to get a drop from a particular boss and the boss is dead already and the spawn rate is slow - so your group has to camp there and wait.

     

    This is NOT the only way open worlds work. A mob could spawn only when a certain item is collected by each member who wants to fight the mob. It may take each member of the group a week to collect this item. That's just one way it could work. There are so many other ways.

    There is a very good reason why games that came after EQ1 had instanced dungeons

    Yes, because most modern MMO devs are clueless code monkies that don't get to design their own games. Publishers design the games, and by design I mean, they instruct people to copy WoW. And WoW has instances, because THEIR designers copied EQ point for point, flaw for flaw, and instead of improving it, just slapped instances over the flawed game mechanics.

    You people need to realize other MMOs existed before WoW than EQ. DAoC never had need of instances.

    Yes, because coding a mob on a 17 hour respawn timer that only drops 1 specific rare item, that certain guilds will permacamp and sell the looting rights is hard, thats why they dont do it.

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