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How the Developers are out of touch.....
ZigZags
Member UncommonPosts: 381
My biggest concern about an IP that I grew up with and love is that the developers are so out of touch with reality that they are heading down a path similar to what BioWare did with SWTOR. Based on what we know today, I believe TESO will havea fate similar to SWTOR. Huge budget, exciting for the first 30-90 days, then drop off and fail status shortly after. Here's why.
at 0:27 Matt Firor thinks they are bringing two different types of players together into one game. As a result they are mixing TES features with "popular" MMO features that two different players will be familiar with and like. This is so not true at all. Of the 27 friends on my Steam list that play TES series, all of them play MMO games as well. These are the same player base. Not two different. By adding features like, instances, short term instanced battlegrounds, factions, zone locks etc. they think they will combine the two player bases together. They don't understand that the two are one and the same and are sick and tired of instanced zones, short term battlegrounds, zone locks and lack of freedom.
at 3:11 Matt Firor thinks that the worst experience in an MMO at the early stages is not being able to find your friends. So their solution is "Mega Server" where the computer decides which server/instance to put you in. This could not be further from the truth. I have played MMOs for 17 years and never once did I have problems finding my friends because we all knew before hand where we were going to play. How? Because we are friends duh, we communicate via chat, phone, text and we all know where we are going. Having a "smart computer" tell you where you are going means 2 bad things: 1) How does it know who your friends are and where it will put you? It doesn't and at first, it wont. 2) This means the game is going to be HEAVILY instanced. This is bad because maybe you want to stalk an opponent who's been killing you and since you're not friends, maybe you wont be on the same server today...I see this is TESO dev team jumping on to some new server technology (that SWTOR used) because it sounds good, but as we have already seen. It wont be.
at 8:04 This is what GW2 did and is totally stupid and is what happens when you force and funnel people to a PVP area. Rather than giving us an open world we can PVP in at any level which is what we haven't seen in a while and is something I think most of s hunger for. Zenimax is failing hard here.
These are just a few examples of how I believe the Developers are out of touch with what the MMO/TES fans and players are thirsting for in this title. As in all previous TES, we want a non linear OPEN WORLD where we can do what we want when we want. Factions are OK if you allow cross factions to explore the opposing faction's areas. By zone locking us out and funneling us into Cyrodil you are no different than what SWTOR tried to do, what GW2 is doing and failing at and what DAOC did but was never as big as it wanted to be. Zenimax should take lessons from the failures of the past and not make the same mistakes. Take EQ as an example. As a Halfing I could venture to Dark Elf territory and sweat bullets that I wouldn't be detected and KOS. THAT's the kind of feel we want. Not some carebear safety zones with a race to 50 so we can pvp in Cyrodil and definitely not the computer auto scaling my level and gear so I can fight in Cyrodil at lvl 10. That is so carebear and NOT what TES fans are going to pay for long term.
Dragnon - Guildmaster - Albion Central Bank in Albion Online
www.albioncentralbank.enjin.com
Comments
This have been a good conversation
It depends. When more information is out I will make the decision then. But as of today based on what I know, it doesn't look good and I don't want to support the business model of: "Lets make a mediocre game, hype it up and make our profit in the first 3 months so who cares about the quality long term." But I do realize most in the MMO community will continue to support this business model.
Dragnon - Guildmaster - Albion Central Bank in Albion Online
www.albioncentralbank.enjin.com
You are arguing out of an PVP point of view, and probaly you are right in this regard.
I'm not so sure if this is also true for ppl who can't care for PVP.
Additional if the server transfers would be free of charge, or a service which is covered with the subscription fee you could w/o problem move the server to your friends.
I think similry like you, small servers where you know most of the ppl and where your reputation is based on other ppl is a good thing. thats why so many assholes are around when you have cross servers. In the beginning of wow you couldn't move away and no x-server was available, so ppl who acted like assholes branded them selves. I think that was a good feature what is missing now.
This have been a good conversation
To be fair, any individual on these forums is at least as clueless about the player base as any game developer. Game developers at least have access to some metrics related to games and game play. Unless they don't bother buying them from the companies that collect them. In which case, they are about as clueless as the people on these forums.
The server technology they're using won't be whatever Bioware used. Bioware's system operates nearly the same as how WoW's system operates. Players on specific servers. He does have a point though. When a game initially launches, getting everyone onto the same server requires that everyone start playing the game at the same time. If players start playing a game at different times, it can be impossible to play together on the same server. The issue isn't players being competent in finding each other, the issue is limitations with the standard server system. A mega server addresses that issue.
Concerning OWPvP...I'm going to go with the game developer having a better idea of what more people want than one random person on a forum. In general, more MMORPG players prefer PvE content with optional PvP as opposed to open world PvP or free for all PvP. I think there's room for more than one server type, but if the choice is one or the other, then the PvE server type wins. GW2 has shown that this can work just fine.
The problem here is you see things from your perspective and the developer is looking at things from the perspective of a million or more people. The million or more people heavily outweighs any individual or group.
That doesn't mean that they're going to make a great game or even that they made the right decisions. Their decisions make sense for what their goals are.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
some of your post I agree with (mega server part) some I disagree with (pvp part, that's personal preference).
the above isn't necessarily so.
Your friends?
How about the people who aren't your friends who don't share the same interests?
Of the people I know who aren't friends, who played skyrim, half of them don't play mmo's.
The other half don't play mmo's "often" and for the most part only play WoW. one played Lotro. However she never finished Skyrim, a bit too open for her.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I agree with you on wanting to explore the entire world and not being locked out of zones.
I agree that we shouldn't have a lot of loading screens. However, even Skyrim has some loading screens. If they are brief and are only for going into certain areas like dungeons, I'm OK with it. I'd rather have the WoW fly across the entire continent kind of thing than GW2's find the portal so you can get to the next zone.
I HATE PvP with a passion. I do NOT want open world PvP. If you simply must have it, then I want the following:
1. Give me the option to turn PvP OFF
2. Make it so that only if I venture into an enemy city I get flagged PvP. If I'm just wondering around exploring a zone, I don't want to get ganked by some other player.
Maybe this is where the megaserver will actually come in handy. You can have your open world pvp gankfest and I can have my nice RP/PvE explore the world enjoyment.
The mega-server is something I really like. I like it in STO and would like to see that approach used more often.
I'm not interested in open world ffa pvp so that would be a deal breaker for me.
To each their own I guess.
Can't really speak for anyone else, or the game itself, but I would be far more inclined to buy a B2P game than a Sub game. I think the mega server thing is a fine solution. We're never going to get back to servers where everyone knows each other, so we may as well be on servers that get us near the people we know.
As far as PvP, if it's just OWPvP added to the game, same as say, Rift, then it'll be a waste of effort on everyone's part. If it has some purpose, and some incentive to occur in large groups, then it'll be worth the effort. Otherwise, they should just stick PvE with flags.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
OP...today I don't share your concern.I have not played an ES game.....but I have played many mmog's and know DAOC VERY WELL..So far from all I've heard , I'm encouraged.Matt F is being true to the ES lore...yet making an mmog.
Given my deep disappointment with GW2 WvW( 24/7 zerg where you try to score points ....sigh ) ESO is my only hope.
Exactly what I was thinking. Have the infrastructure and options for a server transfer in place to execute within 30 days of release would solve the problem of not being able to play with your friends.
However I think the biggest problem for people not being able to play with their friends is the fact that there are factions that cant communicate with eachother, visit eachother's lands, or group up.
I used to play on Race War PVP server, Tallon Zek on EQ. it was 4 teams of 3 races, but you could still communicate and visit/invade eachother's territories if you wanted to. It was fun.
Dragnon - Guildmaster - Albion Central Bank in Albion Online
www.albioncentralbank.enjin.com
ESO's pvp sounds so damn similar to GW2 and that's what is turning me off. A Huge PVP zerg land where everyone scales in level and gear regardless of their actual game progression. I smell fail all over. I would prefer public pvp dungeons, ala Darkness Falls in DAOC and frontiers. But really I would prefer Public everything like EQ1 had and have specific objectives in Cyrodil that would drive much of the PVP there naturally. I hate being forced and funneled where to go and what to do in an MMO, especially an Elder Scrolls one.
Dragnon - Guildmaster - Albion Central Bank in Albion Online
www.albioncentralbank.enjin.com
cyrodill is bigger than oblivion. it also has public dungeons and quests. it's basically a huge owpvp zone. it's not really all that similar to gw2. other than it will also have 3 faction siege warfare.
I dont really think instances will be the biggest problem in ESO.
Firor did lose my interest when he said all MMO features were already invented and needed no additions. That is kinda like when the head of the Us patent office said everything was already invented and they might as well close down in the 1890s.
Thinking like that leads to old boring copying of old stuff. Sadly enough, most people here seems to think more or less the same, in threads about what MMO people should make if they have the money SWG2, UO2 and AC3 are the top choices forgetting that it was new thinking that made AC, SWG and UO good games from the start.
I assume ESO will be a mix between DaoC and Wow which might sound good to some of you but the same can be said of WAR.
There is still time to change this tough, I hope that the alpha and beta testing make Bethesda and Zenimax to change their mind and revamp the game before launch, after it is too late.
The Elder scrolls have been a good series since Daggerfall, if Firor want to make a new DaoC he should instead buy the license from EA, it should be peanut money. Messing up your popular IP isnt worth it.
Still sounds pretty similar to GW2 to me, even if it have dungeons and is larger.
While GW2s borderlands doesnt have quests it do have events.
Then again, I think GW2s WvWvW is pretty fun so that part sounds fine with me, in fact this is the part of the game that sounds fun to me.
Yeah I agree with several others here. I get a GW2 vibe from a lot of what they say. I really do not get a Elder Scrolls vibe from anything beyond the setting of the game.
Most of the things that draw me to Elder Scrolls games and suck up hundreds of my hours.. Do not appear to exist in this title.
When you start mashing in things like class based gameplay, group oriented dungeons, pvp areas... None of that is ES at all and all of it has already been done many times.
Whether people understand it or not, open seamless worlds create a better gaming experience, some understand why and like it, where some dont understand why but like it. Lobby gamers and instance gamers dont think it matters because they dont understand why they may have stuck with some games longer than others, they just drift off, but if you ask them about a seamless world verses an instanced one they would tell you they dont care. But thats the beauty of a well designed addictive game world, most people dont know why they stick around they just like it and do.
So an elder scrolls mmo should have no pvp or group content then? Wouldnt that just be TES:VI then tho?
My only issue with your post is that you assume your experiences with games are the same as everyone elses. Just like the devs that you quote make broad assumptions, so do you.
My experience is the opposite of yours. My roleplaying-game friends couldn't give 2 shakes about MMOs. Thus, 2 different sets of gamers to win.
In the end, you may be right, but one must be careful when painting with a broad brush.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
IMO going PvP with this game was a huge mistake and will alienate a lot of the traditional TES audience, who obviously have a lot of love for PvE because thats what has sold the series, and has just been used as a cheap content generator. This game is setting itself up for a classic identity crisis as it is obviously going to struggle to be all things to all men.
They would have been better throwing the PvP dev resource into long term player retention mechanics like housing and player created content I think.
I know the sentiment won't be a popular one amongst the hardcore 'it 'aint a game without PvP' crowd here, but making a PvP game out of a PvE renowned title will bite then in the arse somewhere down the line.
I dont think that will be an issue as they arent making a "pvp game" only cyrodiil will have pvp the rest of the game is pure pve
Plus your assuming that most tes players havent played mmo's, online fps', moba's etc, but from my experience most have, so having optional but meaningfull pvp should be a good thing not a bad thing
They need more than just 27+1 subscriber though...
After watching that 10 minute trailer that put out for the game I was literally laughing in my chair. Watching scenes where it was taking 5+ people to take down things like a Flame Atronach was just plain silly to me. Dungeons from all the other ES titles were a very special experience.. Creeping through them slowly, watching for traps, stealth takedowns, epic battles against superior odds. Then you watch that video and see people bunny hopping about.. Nothing during those 10 minutes of footage made it look different over anything else we have. It looked just like a WOW/SWTOR dungeon zerg.
If what they have shown us so far.... Is what the game is going to be like.. Its going to be another 2-3 month speed bump title for the majority of the people that play it.