Its funny so many here keep using the word "ganked" as an arguement against open world pvp. Because in all my years gaming and playing ive been ganked more in instanced warzone/raids than i have in the open world.
True dat. Which makes something of a mockery of quite a few anti open world arguments you see on here.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
PvP, to me, should be something I engage in when I choose to do so, not when someone else chooses to do so. I don't care if this elicits cries of "carebear" or whatever. I'm not playing these games for someone elses entertainment, I'm playing it for my own. As such, a system like Guild Wars 2, which fully segregates the PvP from the PvE, works ideally for me. If I feel like kicking back and running events, farming materials, doing dungeons, exploring, etc. I can do so at my leisure without worrying about someone who's over-compensating for a depressing real life trying to gank me in game in order to give himself the illusion of being significant. If I want to PvP, I can do so in a balanced arena style setting (sPvP) or in a more chaotic setting (WvW), which is where I actually spend most of my time. I don't dislike PvP at all... I've over 5000 kills in WvW so far and have a blast there. But it's mutually agreed to death and destruction. I'm there by choice. The person/group/zerg I'm clashing with is/are also there by choice.
This whole thought that there should be "penalties" for dying in PvP... completely stupid. Oh, but it makes it mean something! Horsecrap. You're pixels beat up his pixels. Pull the plug on the server and it's like you never existed in game anyhow, so giving some basement dweller the power to punish someone against their will else who's simply playing to have fun... ridiculous, and people should be embarassed for encouraging that. Seriously, what the heck is wrong with these people? You take pride in ruining someone elses fun? Really? Grats, you're an eBully, but only until you step away from the computer.
PvP should be consentual. It shouldn't be designed to "punish" people to the extent their fun is demolished, there no need nor sense in that. It should be fun. Win, lose or draw, both parties should still be able to hop right back into the action without the childishness of corpse-camping or the fear that some clown can now take your gear or weapons that you put who knows how much time and effort into acquiring. It should give you the option of being in a small and controlled environment or chaotic and massive one. The amount of people that would settle for open world gank feasting simply amazes me.
First off your opinion is fine as it is your opinion on the matter, but trying to say that what others find entertaining or fun, and which gives their game more meaning is somehow wrong is well shallow, and also very telling that you are a extremely closed minded person. I play both Open world, open world FFA, Instance, and perma-death pvp styles alongside many of the pve styles i also play. Having your actions weither it be attacking a mob that is stronger than you, pvping against someone in the open world, or just taking a risk, and knowing that you could lose hours or progression does appeal an give more meeaning/impact to the way you play. Also when it comes down to it if you play on a game or server that is created an marketed for being a open pvp and open world playstyle, you are accepting that you will have to deal with being attacked or killed at any moment in that game setting, and that does make the pvp in that setting completely consentual as you both knew you would be attack/ganked in that game at some point. There is a reason you would have a choice of pvp, and pve geared server, and content, which is that certain styles of play are not for everyone's taste, just as not all food is going to be liked by everyone in the world.
It amazes me more that so many on both sides of the debate are so closed minded, and arrogant as to think that one methoid, and style of fun is correct an right, while the other is wrong an evil, since fun an enjoyment of an activity is subjective to what each person enjoys, and finds engaging to do for fun. It is jsut like two religous groups argueing over which one iss right, and good, and whcih is evil an corrupt since in the end both are not going to say they are the evil/corrupt ones. Just move on respect that you have differing opinion, and tastes in things, and have fun doing what you enjoy allowing the other to do so as well. All forms of entertainment should be supported in some fashion weither be in a features of a game, certain niche games, or what other options might arise. In the end you have a choice to play a game or not based on what it offers, and so if you play a game with somethign that does not suit your form of fun than you made the choice to lose youur enjoyment at the moment you started playing.
Note the first three words... "PvP, to me". The entirety of it is my personal opinion on the matter, nothing more. Now, on the flip side, I played EvE online for quite some time and enjoyed the hell out of wormhole living.
How strange now that I think about it... technically EvE Online is all instanced PvP, yet it's one of the most cut-throat PvP games out there.
Final aside... your last statement - "you made the choice to lose your enjoyment the moment you started playing" - first, most people don't realize the impact or degree PvP will have on them when they first venture into a new game. This should be obvious. Sure, the forum grazing greybeards will, but the newer crowd... not so much. Second, before you preach about who's close-minded or considers their opinion as fact... well, reread that a few times.
Yes lets take one part of what was said an place it out of context. As i said "In the end you have a choice to play a game or not based on what it offers, and if you play a game with something that does not suit your form of fun, than you made the choice to lose your enjoument at the moment you started playing." Which means that iif you do not like world pvp an yet you go into a game that is open world pvp, and you get ganked, or killed in the open world you knowingly knew you had that chance, and so you lost your enjoyment by sheer fact of ignoring that the game supported a form of play you do not enjoy. Hmm than if you find you do not like that after you try it, don't complain about it, but merely leave the game after finding that you do not like it. An it is a fact that if you play a game that you know is not created in a style or type you like, you are taking your fun in hand, and taking a risk of not having fun in that game.
Also that part is black is your opinion as stated, but than you go on to detail how you think that having penalities, risk or being attacked, or losing your gear as having no sense (this is not you stating your opinion but stating it as if it were a fact of how fun is supposed to be.), when if you look ast many people they enjoy that sense off danger, possibility of losing thigns, and so it makes the game funner for them as it gives the game more maining. You vailed what you said as an opinion, and proceeded to state your prefered style of play as the only true an correct way of playing, with all other ways being wrong an incorrect.
It's only a major problem if the people are actually logging into the PvP servers or the PvP games. If they consider the behavior that happens on a PvP server or PvP game to be griefing, and then they don't login, then the system is working as expected. People are exercising their ability to choose. There are lots of actual issues though. There's a gap between how games are advertised and how the experience actually is. This isn't just an issue with PvP either, but it's part of the problem. Games like SWToR with little or no open world PvP advertising the struggle with another faction, when it's a miniscule part of the game. Games like Darkfall looking like WoW with hard PvE content. The wrong players end up in the wrong games and it doesn't take many of them for raise a stink. Of course, there are players who should know better ending up in the wrong games too. You can't really tell the difference between a new player who got killed in Darkfall, thinking there would be some sort of 'honorable' combat, and the person who's played WoW for a year or more complaining about the meaninglessness of the OWPvP. Not on forums anyway.
I agree to an extent with most of that. But in all honesty games like EVE and Darkfall seem to go out of their way to point out the fact that they are "ruthless" and a casual glance at the forums of said games will further enforce that.
Moreover, quite often on these forums we have people who don't even bother playing said games, before blurting out "it's wall to wall griefing!!!".
How do you tell the difference between someone who's had some unexpected experiences in a game from someone who is just parroting what they've heard or assumed about games? On a forum there's very little difference. Both people could make the same statements, in the same thread and both people could be confused for the other.
The specific terms used aren't all that important, because they are so open to interpretation. It is important to accurately represent the experience, but if someone terms what happened to them on a PvP server or in a PvP game as "getting ganked", then you have a good idea of what happened to them. They got killed and couldn't do anything about it. It interrupted what they were trying to do at the time. If "ganking" is why they do not like PvP servers or games, then you have a good idea of why they don't like PvP servers or games.
Getting mired down into what a slang term really means is pointless. It's an undefined term that is defined by the context it's used in.
So, stepping out of the "define ganking" infinite loop, what are we left with?
** edit ** Applies to "griefing" too. Slang term, defined by context, leads to infinite loop.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If you get ganked in an open world, you are just not being observant of your surroundings. The red blobs on the map heading towartds you kinda give it away and you do have time to react or flee. Then again if you played MMORPG's like they are suposed to be played in GROUPS, instead of trying to solo everything, you should never get "ganked".
We use to call in back up, start massive battles all over the place due to this. We would make our own battlegrounds/warzones.
If you are out alone, you kinda are asking for it, and i have no pity for the solo minded people trying to play a MMO lol.
How do you tell the difference between someone who's had some unexpected experiences in a game from someone who is just parroting what they've heard or assumed about games? On a forum there's very little difference. Both people could make the same statements, in the same thread and both people could be confused for the other.
The specific terms used aren't all that important, because they are so open to interpretation. It is important to accurately represent the experience, but if someone terms what happened to them on a PvP server or in a PvP game as "getting ganked", then you have a good idea of what happened to them. They got killed and couldn't do anything about it. It interrupted what they were trying to do at the time. If "ganking" is why they do not like PvP servers or games, then you have a good idea of why they don't like PvP servers or games.
Getting mired down into what a slang term really means is pointless. It's an undefined term that is defined by the context it's used in.
So, stepping out of the "define ganking" infinite loop, what are we left with?
You can tell the difference quite easily. Most of the time the people actually freely admit they have little to no experience of the actual games/system they are lambasting. Other times they are making such outrageous claims that just a cursory examination of them shows whether they are talking shite or not.
Specific terms are rather important when A) threads and arguments are being constructed around said terms and when said terms are pushed to be derogatory in nature.
Let's step outside of using specific terms shall we, I'm all for it. Now let's look at the arguments used again:
"I don't like the game because I don't like being killed unexpectedly". Well we sometimes see this put forward and it is a perfectly legitimate case to bring to the table. Fair enough.
"Everyone griefs and the game is wall to wall harrassment". This is more common and is pretty much just garbage.
People use specific terms because they don't want to just point out why they don't like specific games and systems, that's not enough. They would rather point out their dislike for games and systems whilst at the same time trying to make out that said games and systems are utter shit and the people playing said games are either sociopaths or carebears (depending upon which "extreme" they are trying to lambast).
If people don't want to get into a debate about the use of specific words, then perhaps not bringing up such "emotive" words in the first place would be an idea. Just say you don't like being killed unexpectedly, if that is what you don't like. But don't try and suggest "hurr everyone harrasses everyoneand your all just afraid of real combat" and expect no one to pick up on that.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Then it is a problem for that "some" people .. not me, and many that play MMOs like a lobby game.
In fact, how is harassment possible in a open world pve game, except kill stealing? And as long as you tag the mob fast enough, no one can touch it?
There are a multitude of ways to harrass/disrupt someone in an open world pve game and many ways of continuing that after they have "stuck you on ignore dude". These range from mechanical/game world impacting strategies (lock downs, taps, trains) through group/event/rp/guild disruption, to direct personal attacks across a variety of mediums.
There will no doubt be countless other methods I am unaware of given that I don't spend my time thinking how to grief the crap out of other players.
What game impacting strategies? Use real examples. For example, in WOW ... tell me what you can do to me in a PvE server. Train ... not possible. Block me from going somewhere .. not possible. You can get the mining node, or tag a mob i want ... but that is not really harassment ... cause you can't do it again and again. It is as likely that i tag the mob first.
Sure you can do personal attacks on forums, but i am talking about in-game.
If you get ganked in an open world, you are just not being observant of your surroundings. The red blobs on the map heading towartds you kinda give it away and you do have time to react or flee. Then again if you played MMORPG's like they are suposed to be played in GROUPS, instead of trying to solo everything, you should never get "ganked".
We use to call in back up, start massive battles all over the place due to this. We would make our own battlegrounds/warzones.
If you are out alone, you kinda are asking for it, and i have no pity for the solo minded people trying to play a MMO lol.
I don't play MMORPGs according to what you think it should be. I do it my way. Why should i played in PvP groups, when i can play PvE centric, no pvp MMOs?
How you prefer to play MMO is your business .... don't assume i like it the same way.
Not all MMOs need to be play in groups. Case in point, when i play PS2 (and note it is an open world pvp), i always play lone wolf sniper.
When i play a PvE MMO, i don't want any pvp to impede my pve enjoyment. Don't like my preference, vote with your wallet. I will vote with mine.
Originally posted by nariusseldon What game impacting strategies? Use real examples. For example, in WOW ... tell me what you can do to me in a PvE server. Train ... not possible. Block me from going somewhere .. not possible. You can get the mining node, or tag a mob i want ... but that is not really harassment ... cause you can't do it again and again. It is as likely that i tag the mob first.Sure you can do personal attacks on forums, but i am talking about in-game.
In WoW, the snakes in a snake trap used to attack anything within range of the trap. If an unflagged person of the other faction was nearby, you could drop a trap, run a deer or something across the trap and the snakes would kill the deer, then attack the unflagged person. If they defended themselves, they would get flagged and would become killable. This was fun when dealing with jerks, but it also turns out a level 70 snake trap will kill a level 35 player who's just exploring, which isn't a terribly nice thing to do.
Since that time, they've plugged the holes for that kind of behavior. They plugged a lot of other holes too. For instance, kiting a world dragon into a major city is no longer possible.
I think this supports the idea that PvE servers and games have a different set of definitions for ganking and griefing. Ideally, people would change the definitions of the words when they went to a different game or even a different server type, but humans don't usually have that kind of fluid thinking for definitions. Humans expect definitions to be constant. They carry the definition with them, which leads to confusion.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If you get ganked in an open world, you are just not being observant of your surroundings. The red blobs on the map heading towartds you kinda give it away and you do have time to react or flee. Then again if you played MMORPG's like they are suposed to be played in GROUPS, instead of trying to solo everything, you should never get "ganked".
We use to call in back up, start massive battles all over the place due to this. We would make our own battlegrounds/warzones.
If you are out alone, you kinda are asking for it, and i have no pity for the solo minded people trying to play a MMO lol.
I don't play MMORPGs according to what you think it should be. I do it my way. Why should i played in PvP groups, when i can play PvE centric, no pvp MMOs?
How you prefer to play MMO is your business .... don't assume i like it the same way.
Not all MMOs need to be play in groups. Case in point, when i play PS2 (and note it is an open world pvp), i always play lone wolf sniper.
When i play a PvE MMO, i don't want any pvp to impede my pve enjoyment. Don't like my preference, vote with your wallet. I will vote with mine.
yes yes we know you are a mmofps and single player preference of a konsole kiddie. And that means nothing speaking on pvp, open world, and mmorpg's? You opinion is yours, but has no merit on the topic at hand. All of your posts are about keeping a game genre down so you can enjoy your pve and single player gaming. SO your rambling above is not how many play and thus we should play your way? Your way is boring and offers no reward of playing a mmorpg. You stick to single player games, I persaonaly want more. And yes mmorpg = interaction with others = grouping = fighting = crafting = pvp = pve = housing = and so much more.
Funny how you attack everyones opinion because it isnt your play style, yet offer nothing to the topic other than to bicker and compare single player games to mmorpg's, which is kind of lame.
What game impacting strategies? Use real examples. For example, in WOW ... tell me what you can do to me in a PvE server. Train ... not possible. Block me from going somewhere .. not possible. You can get the mining node, or tag a mob i want ... but that is not really harassment ... cause you can't do it again and again. It is as likely that i tag the mob first.
Sure you can do personal attacks on forums, but i am talking about in-game.
Except you can train mobs in PVE mmos (there are ones that exist outside of WoW), you can also lock down content, kill steal, tag world mobs, disrupt timer spawns and generally fuck up someones day.
That is before you consider harrassing the crap out of RPers and people trying to run events in game.
Before you consider people throwing dungeon/raid runs for the "lulz" (you may never group with them again, but yep, they griefed you that time).
That is also before you consider people disrupting guild/group activities and before you consider people harrassing on forums etc.
Scamming players, yeah that can't happen in a pve game can it. People have honestly never trade/mail scammed anyone in pve mmos ever guvnor.
You might get that mining node before me, but the point is I am running around, going out of my way to tap nodes before you do, just to annoy the hell out of you. I don't need the stuff, I just want to annoy you.
In SWG people used to pull out factional troopers to nuke down non pvp flagged players, often of a much lower level (lulz).
But yeah, griefing just cannot happen.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
If you get ganked in an open world, you are just not being observant of your surroundings. The red blobs on the map heading towartds you kinda give it away and you do have time to react or flee. Then again if you played MMORPG's like they are suposed to be played in GROUPS, instead of trying to solo everything, you should never get "ganked".
We use to call in back up, start massive battles all over the place due to this. We would make our own battlegrounds/warzones.
If you are out alone, you kinda are asking for it, and i have no pity for the solo minded people trying to play a MMO lol.
I don't play MMORPGs according to what you think it should be. I do it my way. Why should i played in PvP groups, when i can play PvE centric, no pvp MMOs?
How you prefer to play MMO is your business .... don't assume i like it the same way.
Not all MMOs need to be play in groups. Case in point, when i play PS2 (and note it is an open world pvp), i always play lone wolf sniper.
When i play a PvE MMO, i don't want any pvp to impede my pve enjoyment. Don't like my preference, vote with your wallet. I will vote with mine.
yes yes we know you are a mmofps and single player preference of a konsole kiddie. And that means nothing speaking on pvp, open world, and mmorpg's? You opinion is yours, but has no merit on the topic at hand. All of your posts are about keeping a game genre down so you can enjoy your pve and single player gaming. SO your rambling above is not how many play and thus we should play your way? Your way is boring and offers no reward of playing a mmorpg. You stick to single player games, I persaonaly want more. And yes mmorpg = interaction with others = grouping = fighting = crafting = pvp = pve = housing = and so much more.
Funny how you attack everyones opinion because it isnt your play style, yet offer nothing to the topic other than to bicker and compare single player games to mmorpg's, which is kind of lame.
Everyone likes different things and NO ONE'S OPINION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYONE ELSE'S. Period. You like open world PvP - Great - go to it. You like instanced - great. You dont like PvP - fine. We don't have to like the same things - that is why there is diversity in the gaming industry.
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by lizardbonesHow do you tell the difference between someone who's had some unexpected experiences in a game from someone who is just parroting what they've heard or assumed about games? On a forum there's very little difference. Both people could make the same statements, in the same thread and both people could be confused for the other. The specific terms used aren't all that important, because they are so open to interpretation. It is important to accurately represent the experience, but if someone terms what happened to them on a PvP server or in a PvP game as "getting ganked", then you have a good idea of what happened to them. They got killed and couldn't do anything about it. It interrupted what they were trying to do at the time. If "ganking" is why they do not like PvP servers or games, then you have a good idea of why they don't like PvP servers or games. Getting mired down into what a slang term really means is pointless. It's an undefined term that is defined by the context it's used in. So, stepping out of the "define ganking" infinite loop, what are we left with?
You can tell the difference quite easily. Most of the time the people actually freely admit they have little to no experience of the actual games/system they are lambasting. Other times they are making such outrageous claims that just a cursory examination of them shows whether they are talking shite or not.
Specific terms are rather important when A) threads and arguments are being constructed around said terms and when said terms are pushed to be derogatory in nature.
Let's step outside of using specific terms shall we, I'm all for it. Now let's look at the arguments used again:
"I don't like the game because I don't like being killed unexpectedly". Well we sometimes see this put forward and it is a perfectly legitimate case to bring to the table. Fair enough.
"Everyone griefs and the game is wall to wall harrassment". This is more common and is pretty much just garbage.
People use specific terms because they don't want to just point out why they don't like specific games and systems, that's not enough. They would rather point out their dislike for games and systems whilst at the same time trying to make out that said games and systems are utter shit and the people playing said games are either sociopaths or carebears (depending upon which "extreme" they are trying to lambast).
If people don't want to get into a debate about the use of specific words, then perhaps not bringing up such "emotive" words in the first place would be an idea. Just say you don't like being killed unexpectedly, if that is what you don't like. But don't try and suggest "hurr everyone harrasses everyone and your all just afraid of real combat" and expect no one to pick up on that.
If you have a good argument for or against the topic of discussion, it doesn't really matter what the other person is saying. Getting mired down in who is telling the truth, who actually played the game, and what the definition of slang terms are is just a distraction.
For instance, what's the point of this thread now? If someone doesn't go back a ways and read the posts, they'd think it was about the definition of ganking or griefing and how that is relevant to open world PvP games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Funny how you attack everyones opinion because it isnt your play style, yet offer nothing to the topic other than to bicker and compare single player games to mmorpg's, which is kind of lame.
No. I attack that opinion because he claims that is how MMO should be played by others, not just himself.
See .. that is your problem .. you only think your opinion is valide. So what i compare SP games to MMOs .. my time is precious, both compete for it.
If you get ganked in an open world, you are just not being observant of your surroundings. The red blobs on the map heading towartds you kinda give it away and you do have time to react or flee. Then again if you played MMORPG's like they are suposed to be played in GROUPS, instead of trying to solo everything, you should never get "ganked".
We use to call in back up, start massive battles all over the place due to this. We would make our own battlegrounds/warzones.
If you are out alone, you kinda are asking for it, and i have no pity for the solo minded people trying to play a MMO lol.
I don't play MMORPGs according to what you think it should be. I do it my way. Why should i played in PvP groups, when i can play PvE centric, no pvp MMOs?
How you prefer to play MMO is your business .... don't assume i like it the same way.
Not all MMOs need to be play in groups. Case in point, when i play PS2 (and note it is an open world pvp), i always play lone wolf sniper.
When i play a PvE MMO, i don't want any pvp to impede my pve enjoyment. Don't like my preference, vote with your wallet. I will vote with mine.
yes yes we know you are a mmofps and single player preference of a konsole kiddie. And that means nothing speaking on pvp, open world, and mmorpg's? You opinion is yours, but has no merit on the topic at hand. All of your posts are about keeping a game genre down so you can enjoy your pve and single player gaming. SO your rambling above is not how many play and thus we should play your way? Your way is boring and offers no reward of playing a mmorpg. You stick to single player games, I persaonaly want more. And yes mmorpg = interaction with others = grouping = fighting = crafting = pvp = pve = housing = and so much more.
Funny how you attack everyones opinion because it isnt your play style, yet offer nothing to the topic other than to bicker and compare single player games to mmorpg's, which is kind of lame.
Everyone likes different things and NO ONE'S OPINION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYONE ELSE'S. Period. You like open world PvP - Great - go to it. You like instanced - great. You dont like PvP - fine. We don't have to like the same things - that is why there is diversity in the gaming industry.
Yes i know, very open when it comes to mmorpg's.. But kind of hard to have a conversation on mmorpgs when this guy wants to compare mmorpg's to single player games and talk about pve in a pvp conversation. Kind of hard to share opinions when they arent on topic, wouldnt you think? I personaly like both options.
Funny how you attack everyones opinion because it isnt your play style, yet offer nothing to the topic other than to bicker and compare single player games to mmorpg's, which is kind of lame.
No. I attack that opinion because he claims that is how MMO should be played by others, not just himself.
See .. that is your problem .. you only think your opinion is valide. So what i compare SP games to MMOs .. my time is precious, both compete for it.
Um thats just it, this is a mmorpg conversation, not a single player one. You cant seem to grasp this concept. If you actualy spoke about mmorpg's and were open minded instead of being gung-ho on singleplayer fps in a topic based on something 100% different you might actualy get someone to respect your opinion.
Its like me an another guya re speaking about old cars and then you come in and start talking about boats.
Except you can train mobs in PVE mmos (there are ones that exist outside of WoW), you can also lock down content, kill steal, tag world mobs, disrupt timer spawns and generally fuck up someones day.
Train again? Which one? All the ones i play has no training. How do you lock content? Kill steal is not possible if a mob is tagged. How to you disrupt timer spawns?
That is before you consider harrassing the crap out of RPers and people trying to run events in game.
Not my concern, i am not a RPers.
Before you consider people throwing dungeon/raid runs for the "lulz" (you may never group with them again, but yep, they griefed you that time).
Griefing one time? Well i can quite a dungeon group even if someone speaks not to my liking. I don't consider as griefing, particularly when that can happen only once.
That is also before you consider people disrupting guild/group activities and before you consider people harrassing on forums etc.
How? No one else can get into guild chat. No one is allowed to post in guild forums, except members.
Scamming players, yeah that can't happen in a pve game can it. People have honestly never trade/mail scammed anyone in pve mmos ever guvnor.
Not if you trade through AH ... and you can't scam with the right trade interface (that you ahve to be careful). Tell me how you can scam me when i buy something on AH?
You might get that mining node before me, but the point is I am running around, going out of my way to tap nodes before you do, just to annoy the hell out of you. I don't need the stuff, I just want to annoy you.
Sure .. but it takes as long for you to "mine" the node (can't be just tap .. need to fully mine before it disappear), so you can't get the next one .. once you start mining this one, i go for the next one. I was in the mining thing a lot in WOW before .. most one can do is to share the nodes by taking turns .. you can't hog everyone just because you need to spend time on it too.
In SWG people used to pull out factional troopers to nuke down non pvp flagged players, often of a much lower level (lulz).
If you are never flagged pvp, that can't happen. In many PvE game, you won't be flagged unless you want to.
Funny how you attack everyones opinion because it isnt your play style, yet offer nothing to the topic other than to bicker and compare single player games to mmorpg's, which is kind of lame.
No. I attack that opinion because he claims that is how MMO should be played by others, not just himself.
See .. that is your problem .. you only think your opinion is valide. So what i compare SP games to MMOs .. my time is precious, both compete for it.
Um thats just it, this is a mmorpg conversation, not a single player one. You cant seem to grasp this concept. If you actualy spoke about mmorpg's and were open minded instead of being gung-ho on singleplayer fps in a topic based on something 100% different you might actualy get someone to respect your opinion.
Its like me an another guya re speaking about old cars and then you come in and start talking about boats.
MMOs are not in a vacuum. Comparing MMOs to other games .. is a MMO conversation. No one dictates we can't compare it to other entertainment, particularly when this site covers so many online non-MMO games.
You don't think many MMO players also play games like Diablo?
If you have a good argument for or against the topic of discussion, it doesn't really matter what the other person is saying. Getting mired down in who is telling the truth, who actually played the game, and what the definition of slang terms are is just a distraction.
For instance, what's the point of this thread now? If someone doesn't go back a ways and read the posts, they'd think it was about the definition of ganking or griefing and how that is relevant to open world PvP games.
People post hyperbole and misinformation on a forum and other people comment upon that, at the same time a thread drifts from it's original "point".
Hardly a shock horror moment quite frankly and I doubt it will be going down as a rare occurrence in anyones book. Especially when the original "point" of the thread was a flamebait topic.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Funny how you attack everyones opinion because it isnt your play style, yet offer nothing to the topic other than to bicker and compare single player games to mmorpg's, which is kind of lame.
No. I attack that opinion because he claims that is how MMO should be played by others, not just himself.
See .. that is your problem .. you only think your opinion is valide. So what i compare SP games to MMOs .. my time is precious, both compete for it.
Um thats just it, this is a mmorpg conversation, not a single player one. You cant seem to grasp this concept. If you actualy spoke about mmorpg's and were open minded instead of being gung-ho on singleplayer fps in a topic based on something 100% different you might actualy get someone to respect your opinion.
Its like me an another guya re speaking about old cars and then you come in and start talking about boats.
MMOs are not in a vacuum. Comparing MMOs to other games .. is a MMO conversation. No one dictates we can't compare it to other entertainment, particularly when this site covers so many online non-MMO games.
You don't think many MMO players also play games like Diablo?
When the converstaion isnt about single player games, kind of hard to compare the two lol. If this thread was about diablo, then all the power to you. BUT ITS NOT!!
When the converstaion isnt about single player games, kind of hard to compare the two lol. If this thread was about diablo, then all the power to you. BUT ITS NOT!!
What is so hard? People (not me) uses SKYRIM to compare with MMO about the issue of open world all the time. MMOs have stories, RPG combat .. all features available in SP games.
No response? Tell me really .. how do you train me in WOW .. in DCUO .. in DDO?
A. You only need to have been able to do it in ONE PVE mmo in order to invalidate your entire premise that "you can't grief in PVE mmos". It could and can be done. Hell it can be done in GW2 ffs.
Do you consider someone kill you once griefing in pvp? We are talking about corpse camping, and unrelenting killing you, right?
B. You fail to see how your "oh I don't consider it griefing so it's all okay" comment was ludicrous if you are not going to accept the same argument from a pvp perspective I see.
No response again .. so you do personal attack when you don't have a point?
C. So you genuinely have no idea how people can disrupt group activities? Jesus.
Most people buy through Ah in PvE games .. eve is not a pve game. And even if not, they can avoid any scamming through AH .. so ti is not an issue.
D. Most people, Ah so the people who use direct trade or mail, well tough shit to them, it's not griefing as they are dumb twits right? You can avoid getting scammed in EVE and repeatedly killed in pvp games most of the time btw. So I guess they shouldn't count.
which is what a MP game should be. Don't you alter your play style depending on the group you find? Changing play style a bit is different from not be able to play at all because of griefing.
E. What? The point is someone is going out of their way to annoy you and hinder your game play.
SWG is not running anymore. How many games can you do this in? There are tons of PvE games that there is no way to turn on pvp withotu consent. In fact, SWG is not well designed if you can turn pvp without consent.
F. Yeah, that doesn't exactly dig you out of the hole of being wrong in the first place there does it. A simple "ah didn't know that" would have been a better response.
[mod edit]
[mod edit]
You are trying to suggest that it is impossible to grief, harrass or disrupt somone in a pve mmo. [mod edit]
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
MMOs are not in a vacuum. Comparing MMOs to other games .. is a MMO conversation. No one dictates we can't compare it to other entertainment, particularly when this site covers so many online non-MMO games.
You don't think many MMO players also play games like Diablo?
So, the word of the week is vacuum?
Listen, it's all fine and dandy to bring up other games from other genres when it is relevant. The problem is that you do it in 95% of your posts, and you do it umpteen times a day. What it comes down to is that you end up derailing almost every thread that you participate in. Always have to remember what site you're on. You do know that there are other gaming forums on the internet, right?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
You are trying to suggest that it is impossible to grief or harrass or disrupt somone in a pve mmo. [mod edit]
Impossible is a strong word .. but highly unlike .. and you have not demonstrate how it is wrong. You can grief someone in pvp to the point that he cannot really play.
That is never possible in a pve centric game, particulalry a LFD style dungeon runs.
MMOs are not in a vacuum. Comparing MMOs to other games .. is a MMO conversation. No one dictates we can't compare it to other entertainment, particularly when this site covers so many online non-MMO games.
You don't think many MMO players also play games like Diablo?
So, the word of the week is vacuum?
Listen, it's all fine and dandy to bring up other games from other genres when it is relevant. The problem is that you do it in 95% of your posts, and you do it umpteen times a day. What it comes down to is that you end up derailing almost every thread that you participate in. Always have to remember what site you're on. You do know that there are other gaming forums on the internet, right?
yeah ... and i ony talk about the trend that MMOs are turning into non-MMOs here.
Comments
True dat. Which makes something of a mockery of quite a few anti open world arguments you see on here.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Yes lets take one part of what was said an place it out of context. As i said "In the end you have a choice to play a game or not based on what it offers, and if you play a game with something that does not suit your form of fun, than you made the choice to lose your enjoument at the moment you started playing." Which means that iif you do not like world pvp an yet you go into a game that is open world pvp, and you get ganked, or killed in the open world you knowingly knew you had that chance, and so you lost your enjoyment by sheer fact of ignoring that the game supported a form of play you do not enjoy. Hmm than if you find you do not like that after you try it, don't complain about it, but merely leave the game after finding that you do not like it. An it is a fact that if you play a game that you know is not created in a style or type you like, you are taking your fun in hand, and taking a risk of not having fun in that game.
Also that part is black is your opinion as stated, but than you go on to detail how you think that having penalities, risk or being attacked, or losing your gear as having no sense (this is not you stating your opinion but stating it as if it were a fact of how fun is supposed to be.), when if you look ast many people they enjoy that sense off danger, possibility of losing thigns, and so it makes the game funner for them as it gives the game more maining. You vailed what you said as an opinion, and proceeded to state your prefered style of play as the only true an correct way of playing, with all other ways being wrong an incorrect.
How do you tell the difference between someone who's had some unexpected experiences in a game from someone who is just parroting what they've heard or assumed about games? On a forum there's very little difference. Both people could make the same statements, in the same thread and both people could be confused for the other.
The specific terms used aren't all that important, because they are so open to interpretation. It is important to accurately represent the experience, but if someone terms what happened to them on a PvP server or in a PvP game as "getting ganked", then you have a good idea of what happened to them. They got killed and couldn't do anything about it. It interrupted what they were trying to do at the time. If "ganking" is why they do not like PvP servers or games, then you have a good idea of why they don't like PvP servers or games.
Getting mired down into what a slang term really means is pointless. It's an undefined term that is defined by the context it's used in.
So, stepping out of the "define ganking" infinite loop, what are we left with?
** edit **
Applies to "griefing" too. Slang term, defined by context, leads to infinite loop.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If you get ganked in an open world, you are just not being observant of your surroundings. The red blobs on the map heading towartds you kinda give it away and you do have time to react or flee. Then again if you played MMORPG's like they are suposed to be played in GROUPS, instead of trying to solo everything, you should never get "ganked".
We use to call in back up, start massive battles all over the place due to this. We would make our own battlegrounds/warzones.
If you are out alone, you kinda are asking for it, and i have no pity for the solo minded people trying to play a MMO lol.
You can tell the difference quite easily. Most of the time the people actually freely admit they have little to no experience of the actual games/system they are lambasting. Other times they are making such outrageous claims that just a cursory examination of them shows whether they are talking shite or not.
Specific terms are rather important when A) threads and arguments are being constructed around said terms and
when said terms are pushed to be derogatory in nature.
Let's step outside of using specific terms shall we, I'm all for it. Now let's look at the arguments used again:
"I don't like the game because I don't like being killed unexpectedly". Well we sometimes see this put forward and it is a perfectly legitimate case to bring to the table. Fair enough.
"Everyone griefs and the game is wall to wall harrassment". This is more common and is pretty much just garbage.
People use specific terms because they don't want to just point out why they don't like specific games and systems, that's not enough. They would rather point out their dislike for games and systems whilst at the same time trying to make out that said games and systems are utter shit and the people playing said games are either sociopaths or carebears (depending upon which "extreme" they are trying to lambast).
If people don't want to get into a debate about the use of specific words, then perhaps not bringing up such "emotive" words in the first place would be an idea. Just say you don't like being killed unexpectedly, if that is what you don't like. But don't try and suggest "hurr everyone harrasses everyone and your all just afraid of real combat" and expect no one to pick up on that.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
What game impacting strategies? Use real examples. For example, in WOW ... tell me what you can do to me in a PvE server. Train ... not possible. Block me from going somewhere .. not possible. You can get the mining node, or tag a mob i want ... but that is not really harassment ... cause you can't do it again and again. It is as likely that i tag the mob first.
Sure you can do personal attacks on forums, but i am talking about in-game.
I don't play MMORPGs according to what you think it should be. I do it my way. Why should i played in PvP groups, when i can play PvE centric, no pvp MMOs?
How you prefer to play MMO is your business .... don't assume i like it the same way.
Not all MMOs need to be play in groups. Case in point, when i play PS2 (and note it is an open world pvp), i always play lone wolf sniper.
When i play a PvE MMO, i don't want any pvp to impede my pve enjoyment. Don't like my preference, vote with your wallet. I will vote with mine.
In WoW, the snakes in a snake trap used to attack anything within range of the trap. If an unflagged person of the other faction was nearby, you could drop a trap, run a deer or something across the trap and the snakes would kill the deer, then attack the unflagged person. If they defended themselves, they would get flagged and would become killable. This was fun when dealing with jerks, but it also turns out a level 70 snake trap will kill a level 35 player who's just exploring, which isn't a terribly nice thing to do.
Since that time, they've plugged the holes for that kind of behavior. They plugged a lot of other holes too. For instance, kiting a world dragon into a major city is no longer possible.
I think this supports the idea that PvE servers and games have a different set of definitions for ganking and griefing. Ideally, people would change the definitions of the words when they went to a different game or even a different server type, but humans don't usually have that kind of fluid thinking for definitions. Humans expect definitions to be constant. They carry the definition with them, which leads to confusion.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
yes yes we know you are a mmofps and single player preference of a konsole kiddie. And that means nothing speaking on pvp, open world, and mmorpg's? You opinion is yours, but has no merit on the topic at hand. All of your posts are about keeping a game genre down so you can enjoy your pve and single player gaming. SO your rambling above is not how many play and thus we should play your way? Your way is boring and offers no reward of playing a mmorpg. You stick to single player games, I persaonaly want more. And yes mmorpg = interaction with others = grouping = fighting = crafting = pvp = pve = housing = and so much more.
Funny how you attack everyones opinion because it isnt your play style, yet offer nothing to the topic other than to bicker and compare single player games to mmorpg's, which is kind of lame.
Except you can train mobs in PVE mmos (there are ones that exist outside of WoW), you can also lock down content, kill steal, tag world mobs, disrupt timer spawns and generally fuck up someones day.
That is before you consider harrassing the crap out of RPers and people trying to run events in game.
Before you consider people throwing dungeon/raid runs for the "lulz" (you may never group with them again, but yep, they griefed you that time).
That is also before you consider people disrupting guild/group activities and before you consider people harrassing on forums etc.
Scamming players, yeah that can't happen in a pve game can it. People have honestly never trade/mail scammed anyone in pve mmos ever guvnor.
You might get that mining node before me, but the point is I am running around, going out of my way to tap nodes before you do, just to annoy the hell out of you. I don't need the stuff, I just want to annoy you.
In SWG people used to pull out factional troopers to nuke down non pvp flagged players, often of a much lower level (lulz).
But yeah, griefing just cannot happen.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Everyone likes different things and NO ONE'S OPINION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYONE ELSE'S. Period. You like open world PvP - Great - go to it. You like instanced - great. You dont like PvP - fine. We don't have to like the same things - that is why there is diversity in the gaming industry.
Specific terms are rather important when A) threads and arguments are being constructed around said terms and
when said terms are pushed to be derogatory in nature.
Let's step outside of using specific terms shall we, I'm all for it. Now let's look at the arguments used again:
"I don't like the game because I don't like being killed unexpectedly". Well we sometimes see this put forward and it is a perfectly legitimate case to bring to the table. Fair enough.
"Everyone griefs and the game is wall to wall harrassment". This is more common and is pretty much just garbage.
People use specific terms because they don't want to just point out why they don't like specific games and systems, that's not enough. They would rather point out their dislike for games and systems whilst at the same time trying to make out that said games and systems are utter shit and the people playing said games are either sociopaths or carebears (depending upon which "extreme" they are trying to lambast).
If people don't want to get into a debate about the use of specific words, then perhaps not bringing up such "emotive" words in the first place would be an idea. Just say you don't like being killed unexpectedly, if that is what you don't like. But don't try and suggest "hurr everyone harrasses everyone and your all just afraid of real combat" and expect no one to pick up on that.
If you have a good argument for or against the topic of discussion, it doesn't really matter what the other person is saying. Getting mired down in who is telling the truth, who actually played the game, and what the definition of slang terms are is just a distraction.
For instance, what's the point of this thread now? If someone doesn't go back a ways and read the posts, they'd think it was about the definition of ganking or griefing and how that is relevant to open world PvP games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
No. I attack that opinion because he claims that is how MMO should be played by others, not just himself.
See .. that is your problem .. you only think your opinion is valide. So what i compare SP games to MMOs .. my time is precious, both compete for it.
Yes i know, very open when it comes to mmorpg's.. But kind of hard to have a conversation on mmorpgs when this guy wants to compare mmorpg's to single player games and talk about pve in a pvp conversation. Kind of hard to share opinions when they arent on topic, wouldnt you think? I personaly like both options.
Um thats just it, this is a mmorpg conversation, not a single player one. You cant seem to grasp this concept. If you actualy spoke about mmorpg's and were open minded instead of being gung-ho on singleplayer fps in a topic based on something 100% different you might actualy get someone to respect your opinion.
Its like me an another guya re speaking about old cars and then you come in and start talking about boats.
MMOs are not in a vacuum. Comparing MMOs to other games .. is a MMO conversation. No one dictates we can't compare it to other entertainment, particularly when this site covers so many online non-MMO games.
You don't think many MMO players also play games like Diablo?
In SWG people used to pull out factional troopers to nuke down non pvp flagged players, often of a much lower level (lulz).
If you are never flagged pvp, that can't happen. In many PvE game, you won't be flagged unless you want to.
SWG had 3 stages of combat.
1) civillian- kills mobs, monsters, quest npc's
2) combatant - can kill the above plus factional npc's (85% of people were this so not hard to do)
3) special forces - all the above plus player vs player combat anywhere at any time
SWG had the perfect system for this. And yes it could happen
People post hyperbole and misinformation on a forum and other people comment upon that, at the same time a thread drifts from it's original "point".
Hardly a shock horror moment quite frankly and I doubt it will be going down as a rare occurrence in anyones book. Especially when the original "point" of the thread was a flamebait topic.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
When the converstaion isnt about single player games, kind of hard to compare the two lol. If this thread was about diablo, then all the power to you. BUT ITS NOT!!
What is so hard? People (not me) uses SKYRIM to compare with MMO about the issue of open world all the time. MMOs have stories, RPG combat .. all features available in SP games.
You are trying to suggest that it is impossible to grief, harrass or disrupt somone in a pve mmo. [mod edit]
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
So, the word of the week is vacuum?
Listen, it's all fine and dandy to bring up other games from other genres when it is relevant. The problem is that you do it in 95% of your posts, and you do it umpteen times a day. What it comes down to is that you end up derailing almost every thread that you participate in. Always have to remember what site you're on. You do know that there are other gaming forums on the internet, right?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Impossible is a strong word .. but highly unlike .. and you have not demonstrate how it is wrong. You can grief someone in pvp to the point that he cannot really play.
That is never possible in a pve centric game, particulalry a LFD style dungeon runs.
yeah ... and i ony talk about the trend that MMOs are turning into non-MMOs here.