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Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by maccarthur2004
[horrendousness and blaah blah blah] If the same flaws from the pvp fight are present in pve in very worst degree, so i necessarily come to the conclusion that isn't that flaws the main cause of the distaste of some people to the pvp, but the real possibility of to lose, to die or have much work.
And the conclusion is still wrong. It's two different objectives at play. It has nothing to do with fears or flaws or the real possibility of to lose, to die or have much work.
That post was specifically adressed only to people that say to avoid/hate pvp only because balance/fainess issues or because the pvp fight is crap. I showed that pve is far worst than pvp in these same aspects, therefore these aren't the real reasons to them avoid/hate pvp.
Actually, you showed nothing, because they are two different objectives. In PvE, the player is killing mobs to get to their goal. In PvP, killing the player is the goal. Presence of a similar mechanic (combat) between the two activities does not automatically make them the same activity, thus the reasons for playing and the perception of the challenges presented are not only distinctly different but incomparable.
Once you understand that we can then move forward with the conversation.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by TheIdealist Open world pvp is the best thing ever made for mmorpg's! Without open world pvp it's a little bit like a singleplayer game...
How is it a single players game when:
- you trade with others on AH?
- you group with others in dungeons?
- you show off your gear to others?
You don't need pvp at all for a MMORPG.
OP; to me, it's the other way around. I don't care for organized PVP systems like battlegrounds or even RvR, but I like open world PVP. Without any systems, or maybe even incentivization. And I'm primarily a PVE player.
To me, PVP should not be something that's a goal but something that just happens. Something that pisses you off, keeps you from accomplishing some other thing. A hindrance you should overcome. You're going for a resource, some enemy player is going for the same resource, you duke it out. You want to go into a dungeon, and some enemy players are there and want the place for themselves, you duke it out.
That's the only way PVP can be - to use a popular phrase around here - "meaningful" to me, because it's all part of the te?ture then. Part of the overall progress. Other players become obstacles to your goal, which makes said accomplishment feel more fulfilling.
So, how about PVP for PVP's sake? Doesn't work for me. All the PVP systems make the PVP feel somewhat phony. I never get that sense of purpose. I like having goals that reach far and wide and have to do with the open game world mechanics - be it fishing a special item, mining some hot ore, running a good transport route or whatever. Organized PVP, especially as it is in modern games, feels isolated to me. Any system you bring in, you limit what PVP can mean.
EVE is probably the one game where even "PVP for PVP's sake" ends up more than PVP. Or rather, everything ends up one form of PVP or another.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by TheIdealist Open world pvp is the best thing ever made for mmorpg's! Without open world pvp it's a little bit like a singleplayer game...
Since the only manner of interaction in most video games is to kill the other person, I can kind of understand why some people would have no idea that there are other possible ways for it to happen. They've probably never been exposed to it.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Nari You just described diablo3 a non mmo.
it is not a MMO .. why would it be a MMO? It does have a similar play style compared to many MMOs, and has a AH, but it has no world at all.
I agree with the OP but my short response is: People who avoid PVP do not like the unpredictability of playing against a "real" person - which is much harder than learning new dance steps in dungeons and raids. Also - many die hard PVEers like the "working together" aspect of raiding and feel that PVP is lacking in that area.
I LOVE PVP and find PVE boring as hell - just waiting for Darkfall 2.0...yeah baby yeah!
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
Ah the usual arrogance rears it's ugly head.Whislt I enjoy both aspects of MMORPGs PvE and PvP I don't think I have the right to enforce my preferences on everyone else.SOme peopel play games to chill out and ghave fun and so don't enjoy PvP for whatever reason.That is their right and it's the height of arrogance to belittle them for it and force your preferences on them.
I would say the same thing of hardcroe PvEr's saying that all PvPers are just gloryhounds who prefer griefing instead of working with others for a common goal.
I think PvP turns many away for many reasons.
First, I believe a lot of people lack confidence in themselves to compete in PvP. Many do not realize that they will become better with practice. Many high end PvE players want to jump into PvP and be the best, but do not realize that there is a whole new aspect involved, and that is an unpredictable enemy. You can fight the same person over and over, and never have the same (AI if you will) .
Second, I believe people look at PvP games to only strictly revolve around PvP; However in reality the focus may be PvP but there are many other activities to enjoy, PvP is just sometheing that may potentially occur while you enjoy other events. It makes the game more thrilling to me. It can be annoying when you lose a few hours of work because you get killed, but next time you will bank more often, or you will roam with a larger group of people. PvP to me promotes grouping which has lost its value with the questing solo MMO rpgs that have come about.
Finally, I think people view PvP as a gankfest full of griefers. When in reality griefers are actually the minority in these games. It is just the fact that new players are afraid to socialize with other new players to take on the griefers. If you really think about it, the griefers typically pick on new players, because they think its cool but in reality it is simply because they cannot compete with experienced players.
Originally posted by phantomghost Finally, I think people view PvP as a gankfest full of griefers. When in reality griefers are actually the minority in these games. It is just the fact that new players are afraid to socialize with other new players to take on the griefers. If you really think about it, the griefers typically pick on new players, because they think its cool but in reality it is simply because they cannot compete with experienced players.
Not in instanced pvp. The point is that you control what you want to play. OWpvp loses taht control. In an arena, i know what i am getting into.
If i just want to do my auction, why would i want to subject to pvp which may interrupt that?
I was scared of PvP when I first started playing MMO's (Lineage 1 beta in 1999) because... well, I was bad at it. Getting wrecked by other players bruised my ego
Over the years though, PvP has become my favorite thing. PvE cannot compare to the excitement of facing another human.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by phantomghost Finally, I think people view PvP as a gankfest full of griefers. When in reality griefers are actually the minority in these games. It is just the fact that new players are afraid to socialize with other new players to take on the griefers. If you really think about it, the griefers typically pick on new players, because they think its cool but in reality it is simply because they cannot compete with experienced players.
Why limit yourself to one aspect of the game.
If you want to strictly do your "auction" you can. Stay in one town, where you are safe. PvE games also have creatures that spawn that can kill you when you run.
Open world pvp just means you need to be more careful. To me it makes it more fun. If you want to get rich in the game through the market, you may need to take risks to do so. What is not fun to me is knowing any action I take will not have repurcussions (unless I decide to get myself banned).
What about gamers like me who enjoy and play PVP allot in other genre of games, be it FPS, RTS type of games?
I don't care much for PVP in MMORPG, though occasionally I enjoy the thrill from either the hunt or the being hunted in a MMORPG and to me the reward is the fight, the win or perhaps even when loosing, I don't care about full loot or rewards or rankings, I just care that when I PVP it contains challenge, at some point fairness (don't see why that lvl 50 warrior wants to duel me at lvl 10) and overall if it's fun.
Originally posted by phantomghost
I don't. I play PS2 too .. which is OWpvp only.
But .. it is LESS fun for me if i need to be more careful only if i want to mine. Thus, i don't want owpvp .. becuase it is annoying .. not that i cannot be careful .. in my pve game.
Fun is subjective. Obviously what is fun for you is not for me.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Maroxad Problem is however, that a lot of games have PvP that is downright terribly executed,
This is probably the biggest reason that most PvE gamers avoid PvP in MMOs.
I avoid it because I can't stand PvP at all. I'm not afraid of it, I'm just not interested in it. I have no interest in the way PvP destroys the game experience I want. If I'm going to play a game with other people, I'd rather have those people on my side against the world instead of having to watch my back for the moron who wants to stick a knife in it. It's the same reason why I play FPS but I never, ever, ever under any circumstances play them multiplayer.
It's just not fun.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots moreRelatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots moreNow Playing: NoneHope: None
Originally posted by lizardbones Are you referring to PvP in general, or OWPvP/FFAPvP? There are many people who are fine with PvP, just not with open world PvP, free for all PvP or full loot PvP. It's not PvP that turns them off, it's specific implementations of PvP.
I am fine with open world and ffa pvp, but what I won't bother with is pvp where you can be looted, Battlestar galatica onkline has a rather unique system, when you die in a pvp death, your killer gets loot, however its the same loot he would get off npc's just in greater numbers, your ship loses none of its items. This way pvp is rewarding in a sense, but it also doesn't have any real negative effects on the player that was killed, well other than the costs to repair your ship, which actually get painful if your in a fully upgraded lineship-class vessel. The first DF died because it was a full looting greif/gank fest, high levels would gank new players, and take their worthless stuff for spite, which after this happens a few times, said new player just gets sick of it and cancels. DF:UW has some newbie protection but its not really protection cuz the real newbei zone will just be moved to the next zone where the same stuff will take place. The other problem in general is the immaturity of mmorpg players these days, they can't really play a ffa game like they used to be played there are too many immature players out there. You know the ones who will gank people who cannot put up a fight, but they run like pussies with their tail between their legs the second anyone who can put up a fight shows.
The other problem with ow/ffa pvp games is if your not in the first inital wave of players your bascally screwed, Especally in darkfall where it uses a more elder scrolls type of leveling where skills raise by being used. You will always be behind till the ones miles ahead of you cap, and once they cap, they will be there ganking the lower skilled people for fun since the game offers nothing to do really. In reality its not that people are scared of ow/ffa pvp-type games, its just they can't be bothered to deal with the annoyence of that kind of playstyle. Its why daoc did it best, all major pvp takes place in BG's or in the frontier which is a huge zone that all 3 factions can access. While in your home factions places your safe. People just dislike forced pvp thats all it is really. It does get rather stressfull playing a game with open world pvp because your always paranoid that someone is going to kill you, creates a semi-stressful envirnment. I used to hate rising force online due to this, outside of your main citys zone its open pvp vs the other 2 factions so you always had to watch your back. Dying just cost u some pvp points, and the time to run back but its still annoying when your deep in a zone and have to run back lol.
If a game like DF:UW is going to survive it needs to move all the open world pvp to one zone, so therefor it becomes a choice insted of a requirement, while DF fans may disaggre with this, look at most of the other ffa pvp mmo's. They all die in less than 6 months due to lack of new players to replace the older ones who get bored. I was thinking of givign df:UW a try but, meh, I dunno, it'll prob be dead in 3 months like it predecessor was. Not sure i wanna buy a mmo that is doomed to die soon after release.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Originally posted by Loktofeit Reading the last round of posts from PVPers, the thing I am finding scary is how many there are here that aren't able to understnad playstyles outside of their own.
A lot of people here are fairly close minded, and only like sandbox open world pvp, and can't see other play style.
But it is ok. It is not like devs only cater to them. There are plenty of choices from owpvp only game (PS2), to MOBA, to instanced pvp games, to no pvp games.
So it is all good.
Originally posted by Siveria If a game like DF:UW is going to survive it needs to move all the open world pvp to one zone, so therefor it becomes a choice insted of a requirement, while DF fans may disaggre with this, look at most of the other ffa pvp mmo's. They all die in less than 6 months due to lack of new players to replace the older ones who get bored. I was thinking of givign df:UW a try but, meh, I dunno, it'll prob be dead in 3 months like it predecessor was. Not sure i wanna buy a mmo that is doomed to die soon after release.
That is the beauty of the free market. People can scream about that they want in forums, but all boils down to players voting with their wallets.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Reading the last round of posts from PVPers, the thing I am finding scary is how many there are here that aren't able to understand playstyles outside of their own.
Pretty much a given. How often do we see fans of specific games that just don't get games that answer the same design problems differently?
It's less common here than on game-centric message boards, actually.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by nariusseldon That is the beauty of the free market. People can scream about that they want in forums, but all boils down to players voting with their wallets.
Aah now we come to the point: wallets, LoL. Make sure you've read this thread then come back and tell us all about the glory about PS2: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/370814/page/1
Originally posted by WhiteLantern I'm not against PvP. I certainly am not "scared" of it (love how people use the word scared for people who don't like things, but i digress). However, I'm what you would call a "terribad", so I avoid PvP for the most part.
Agreed, I buy and play games for the content in it and not for some pvp fight wich are better in real pvp games like battlefield.
Originally posted by picommander Originally posted by nariusseldon That is the beauty of the free market. People can scream about that they want in forums, but all boils down to players voting with their wallets.
It went over his head, Narius.