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Why PVP scares some people?

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by gravesworn
    From my perspective the open world pvp conundrum stems from pyschologicial point of view. The abundance of gamers have been breed in to a gaming culture that promotes what I refer to as the Hero syndrome. Everyone is essentially conditioned to believe they are a hero. Even in mmorpgs. You are a hero. The set up of gameplay mechanics in most games tries to support the over arcing fact that you are better than everyone or you are the only hope. Ect ect ect... This is why people dislike open world pvp. In such a senario you are not a badass hero that is better than everyone. In such a game, you have to earn a hero or badass status. Which is far more difficult to obtain from a pyschological stand point than it is if inherently given. Gamers for the most part have been conditioned to be counter open world pvpers over the years because of this gaming culture. I am not saying this fits everyone but I do feel that the dramatization of heroism is a large factor as why open world pvp is less accepted than other form of mmorpgs and games in general, and why it may be difficult to develop a pvp game in an mmorpg environment.

    That is an interesting point. And that also explains why open world SP game is more popular than online game .. after all, it feels much better to be the chosen one in an open world (SKYRIM) than a lowly pilot that no one cares about (EvE).

    Plus, it is more entertaining to be the hero.

  • MsGamerladyMsGamerlady Mmoville, INPosts: 181Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by tort0429
    Here we go again.   This argument is the most repeated argument on this site.  Why can't PVPers just leave PVEers alone and vice versa.  End of Argument.

     

    We MMO gamers need to come up with something new to discuss.   The argument is past getting old.


    I totally agree.

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  • ariasaitchoariasaitcho Rapid City, SDPosts: 112Member
    Originally posted by Rayshe

     

    Fight like a coward Die like a coward.

    +1

     

    Of course the idea of chivalry in a pvp environment is silly to begin with. It's simple human psycology, fight the fair (good) fight or fight the fight you know you can win (bad); people will (almost) always choose the fight they know they can win everytime. The Powell Doctrine shows this thinking in the real world: don't go to war with anything less than 3X what the enemy has. In MMO terms this means ganking, and I don't know anyone who enjoys being ganked.

    This is why I only play games where pvp is something you have to accept challenge and instanced pvp. I don't wan't to pvp when I'm out trying to gather stuff for crafting or grinding for levels. When I do want to pvp it's at the place and time of my choosing. Why should I "fear" dieing in an illusionary world that has no real world concequences?

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  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,559Member Uncommon
    At the thought of PvP I wet myself.

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by MsGamerlady

     


    Originally posted by tort0429
    Here we go again.   This argument is the most repeated argument on this site.  Why can't PVPers just leave PVEers alone and vice versa.  End of Argument.

     

     

    We MMO gamers need to come up with something new to discuss.   The argument is past getting old.


     

    I totally agree.

    +1

    if anyone is frightened its FFA full loot pvp'rs. every time a game has gone that route or had servers which did, those games and servers quickly became defunct or simply quiet as a graveyard. the FFA people have a game rebooting for them in DF but that's it. no mmo is willing to do it b/c the vast majority of players do not enjoy being forced to play their game the way someone else wants them to.

    i am for pvp. i think SWG had a great system for that which included flagging oneself and being flagged for attacking opposing faction npcs/pcs.

    i don't want to be forced into crafting or raiding or questing when i dont want to, why would i want to be forced into pvp?

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I don't think it has anything to do with anyone being scared of PVP, I never heard anyone ever say that, many hate PVP yes.

     

    I don't like PVP because:

    -the gameplay of PVP is 9 out of 10 time really really bad

    -the PVP community is usually incredibly rude

    -I have no time to deal with griefing little kids in an MMO

    -There is never cooperation in PVP games, it's always one person or a handful of peope button mashing, no organised raids

    -Many PVP players cry on the forum that classes aren't balanced because they get killed one-on-one, classes are not supposed to be balanced in PVE games that's what teamwork is for

    -etc etc etc

    Yup, the same goes for me.  I find, almost without exception, that active PvPers are total douchebags, especially in open-PVP games.  Even for the ones where it's totally consentual, I've had PvPers standing there yelling at random passersby, people who have their PvP flags off "you're a fucking pussy, come fight me!"

    PvPers are assholes.  I don't want to play with assholes. 

    Having played on the Fury server in AoC - my first real foray into OWPvP I have to say the shear number of people engaging in this kind of behaviour was depressing. There were no flags on that server - but the degree of ganking, corpse jumping, playground insults etc. was difficult for anyone with the slightest degree of maturity to understand ot tolerate for long. I very much enjoyed the OWPvP when it was lacking in such idiocy - in fact when a little roleplay was thrown in - e.g when two barbarians came up to my necromancer and started to insult me because they felt I was dishonouring the dead by reanimating them, I appreciated the ass kicking I got after I arrongantly laughed at them as fools. But alas, all too often OWPvP was tainted with shitty behaviour and didn't come close to such quality play.

    The fact is, PvP players fall roughly into two camps (and yes, I know many bridge it too) - the ones who enjoy the challenge and playstyle, and the ones who get a buzz from one-sided encounters, ganking and endless insults afterwards - the kinds of people who will try their hardest to utterly ruin the online experience of other people and then wail endlessly if any controls are put in place - guards, consequence systems, flags etc.

    The OP does seem to empathise with the latter type of player. Seriously thinking that a desire to avoid the 'borstal playground' bahaviour of such PvP players is an issue of 'fear' is clearly ridiculous. To think it is a factor is more of an indication of the mindset of the person asking the question than it will ever be of those refered to.

    I think OWPvP is something which can enrich a game - but ONLY when the consequence system is effective and takes an eye for an eye apporach. If you set out to ruin the experience for another player by repeatedly ganking and griefing - the powerful and lawful NPC factions in the game should seriously punish you. Have a system where you accrue 'negative reputation' points based on how civilised an area is where you fight, how balanced the fight is and how much you gank or grief. Have these points slowly count down over time - so a little of such activity, and the innevitable accidents that will occur don't really matter - but repeat offending does.

    Consequences then rack up rapidly if you don't stop doing it -  your sorry little PC gets arrested by guards and put in prison for an hour real time; you are fined substantial amounts of gold; reputable vendors won't trade with you for a week and for a month after everything costs double; you earn insults and catcalls from every normal NPC in the game for a month and a bounty system allows you to be hunted down and stomped on by every other PC in the game without them suffering any negative consequences and they get gold for delivering your head to local NPCs... with fatality emotes including spitting or urinating on your corpse.

    THAT's what used to happen in the real world when things were a little less civilised, and it's the only thing that works...

    ... can you imagine the wailing about 'my game is ruined' from such people suffering payback under such circumstances!?

    The only excuse to kill and kill without being punished is when you are at war or when nobody cares (such as in a lawless area). Put mechanisms in the game for this so war suspends the 'negative reputation system' and an understanding that certain areas in the game world are so wild and remote that banditry and murder in such areas will accrue far fewer negative reputation points, and OWPvP can occur - it just cannot become the purile joke it normally is.

    Add to this a system where lawless areas can be made lawful by PC actions - and indeed where such areas can be changed back by the same - and you get a self-balancing system where player interraction is structured but both playstyles can be catered for.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,145Member Uncommon

    Why I have impression that OP meant "real man do not pve, they pvp"? Actually ... real man do not play games at all.

    For the rest, tried few times but discovered there are to many psychos in games. Is all down to kind of player one is. Have few friends that enjoy most jumping on throat of "enemy" when this one is already half life from mobs fight. Or killing player zillion levels below its own. On the other side I'm kind of person that will always help player in trouble, for me does not matter faction. In games I do not see this as in soccer match, or tennis match, ... that is fun, in games or in real life. Always loved that. Joy of pvp is more .. weird, twisted way of enjoying ruining somebody day. I'm simply not that kind of person.

  • kitaradkitarad RomePosts: 1,747Member Uncommon
    I do not enjoy hurting other people and camping them or making thier life online miserable. I guess that we all have diffferent tastes. I enjoy fair games where we both go in looking for a fair fight. I can get behind that. This type of gameplay where bullying and making sure the person you are killing has no chance of fighting back is to put it honestly cowardly and hardly what real men do ;  am using that phrase as it was bandied about earlier.

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  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004
    Originally posted by evilastro

    You forgot the main reason people dont like OWPvP.

    It is rarely 'fair'. OWPvP is too susceptible to unstoppable zergs. Run around with a group of 6 and what chance does 1 player stand against you? Get a raid of players and you can wipe out any small groups without breaking a sweat.

    This is what happens when you get OWPvP. You dont get fair 1 one 1 fights, or even full group vs full group. Sure you get them sometimes against rogue characters, but the only reason they are engaging you 1 on 1 is because they know that they have the advantage from getting the jump on you.  More often than not you will get full groups of stealthed players hiding near PvE objectives simply to grief soloers and small groups.

    Now your response is probably 'Well its a MMO, you should be grouping anyway'. Which is fair enough I guess, but these types of players wont engage anyone that would be a challenge or even a fair fight. They only engage when its obvious they will win. Which is why OWPvP is such a noxious beast and puts many PvE players off.

    Instanced PvP on the other hand is optional. You cant be taken unaware and the numbers are evenly balanced. I wont say its always fair, but it has a lot more chance at being balanced than OWPvP. You mentioned that human controlled characters are harder to kill - fair point, but if you really enjoy the challenge of fighting another player, wouldnt it be better to do it in an instanced scenario where you know its a balanced fight?

    While I have enjoyed OWPvP on a few games, often I just cant be bothered because I know it will turn into a senseless gankfest with no challenge whatsoever. You either steamroll or you get steamrolled, no skill needed. That's why I prefer instanced PvP seperate from the open world.

    As said before, instanced pvp only provides the fight itself, the tactical aspect, but lacks the political/social/diplomatic/economic aspects provided by a mmo full of disputable resources in the open world and free pvp. BGs are like "colosseums" and OWPvP like a world where there is war and political disputes.

    GW1 Factions had political/social/economic aspects tied to its regional battles, which were all instanced. Guilds and factions would take control over the map changing what content was accessable to members of your faction.  Granted there was nothing diplomatic about it.

    Back to the OP, GW1 is by far the best example of PvP in a RPG.  Granted its a more of a Co Op RPG, not really a MMO.  Whole team builds and strategy were meaningful. You werent better than anyone because you spent 100 hours and they have only spent 10. You were better because you worked as a team. Thats what a MMO should be about, working as a team, not outgearing / outleveling someone else.

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member

    I like playing a PvP-focused MMO, but I don't feel rejected or criticised that other people don't. I'm not a big fan of romantic comedies or horror movies, but that's fine I can watch an action thriller or a nature documentary without hating rom-com lovers or calling horror fans mentally disturbed. 

    There are hundreds of PvE-focused MMOs for those who like PvE to play and then look! We can all be happy! Choices!

    All I ask is that people who don't like PvP MMOs don't try and change the one I like into a PvE MMO. There seem to be an element who believe that they're entitled to endlessly cry to the developers to completely change the character of my game, and they don't give 2 flips about what I or people like me who have supported the game for many years like: they want their way now! I'd like them to respect the choice that I and people like me have made, just as they demend respect for their choice.

    Same for sandbox vs themepark, tbh. Don't join a game that's openly advertised as being based on player interaction, ignore everyone else who plays it, and then whine that it "lacks content". That's as dumb as complaining that there's no love theme in Rambo or that there's no characterisation in a David Attenborough show.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    Because they are bads and they don't like getting "the beat down" put on them.

     

    Joking aside, whilst the above is true in some cases no doubt, in reality there are countless reasons for people not to want to get involved in pvp. Prime among them is simply that they don't enjoy it.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004
     
    [horrendousness and blaah blah blah]

    If the same flaws from the pvp fight are present in pve in very worst degree, so i necessarily come to the conclusion that isn't that flaws the main cause of the distaste of some people to the pvp, but the real possibility of to lose, to die or have much work.

    And the conclusion is still wrong. It's two different objectives at play. It has nothing to do with fears or flaws or the real possibility of to lose, to die or have much work.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
          I refuse to play a FFA ganking open world PvP game.. All you get is ganking and corpse camping..  If you want pure PvP go play the numerous titles out there such as Call of Duty, or Planetside, etc etc..  All I hear in threads like this is "I want more PvP against easy  targets because I like overpowering the noobs" I find no fun in being the target of a group of kiddies..  I have noticed that soon as the group of kiddies, that were ganking others, are the FIRST to quit when they become the target of a bigger group..  As they say, "There is always a bigger fish"..
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Someone please make a 100% pure pve aaa mmo.....

    Then we can tell all the amateur psychologists to bugger off and play that.
  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,538Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004
    -SNIP-  

     

    Problem with your post is your entire premise is flawed and you make far too many presumptions. First of all, no one is "afraid of PvP". That's just ridiculous, and right from the start you're putting those who don't like PvP in this "cowardly" light. Doesn't bode well for the rest of your post.

    Further, you're trying to psychoanalyze something that doesn't require it, especially considering there have been many discussions about this topic where people have come right out and explained why they don't like PvP.

    Some people simply don't enjoy PvP style gameplay, just as others don't enjoy PvE. It's a preference. Some people enjoy both equally! Imagine that! I happen to fall into the "enjoys both" category.

    Other people prefer the idea of cooperating with others against a common enemy instead of competing against them. And no, that's not those people "fitting in to your category of them being afraid of other players attacking them", so don't even go there. They prefer cooperation over competition - that's all there is to it.

    Other people don't like a certain type of player PvP MMOs tend to attract - that is, the one who's not interested in PvP itself (they typically run from anything that remotely resembles a challenge), but just enjoys the fact that a PvP MMO gives them a free ticket to run around acting like a jackass.

    People don't like PvP for all those and other reasons. "Being afraid of it" has nothing to do with it. It's rather funny how you keep trying to spin people's explanations against them, so you can "neatly" squeeze them into one of your pre-determined "categories". It further demonstrates how simplistic and narrow-minded your understanding is of people in general.

    It's really not some big, deep and complex subject, and it's certainly not as "neat and simple" to define as you try to make it sound.

  • MaroxadMaroxad SölvesborgPosts: 28Member

    Nothing against PvP in general, played some competitive multiplayer not too long ago. I got nothing against it in mmos either, afterall, I highly respect games like EVE and UO, and I wish we could get more games like that.

    Problem is however, that a lot of games have PvP that is downright terribly executed, an as a result is not a lot of fun. Examples of this includes WoW. PvP feels like it is nothing more than a tacked on minigame, one that adds absolutely nothing to the core experience. WoW is focused on instances and getting better loot. WoW is not a PvP game, and PvP really is the weakest link in that game.

    Of course, you may feel differently, but PvP to a lot of players is not particulary fun in games that arent built around it.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Agree wow has atrocious pvp
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Maroxad  Problem is however, that a lot of games have PvP that is downright terribly executed,
     

    This is probably the biggest reason that most PvE gamers avoid PvP in MMOs.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Maroxad

    Of course, you may feel differently, but PvP to a lot of players is not particulary fun in games that arent built around it.

    PVP is one of those bullet points required for marketing a modern game.

    But you can tell from the products that a lot of dev teams don't really have their hearts in it.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member Uncommon

    sometimes its hard to loose and item or experience for which you spend a lot of amound of time, so i believe most people are afraid the cost of loss ...

     

    in these terms i loved the open pvp with penalties for the serial killers and not full loot, not loot at all !!! but anyway

     

    also when there is a sub (like EVE which have a well balanced open world pvp system) then the feel that you losepaid time, makes you anxious and you lose the joy, i wish EVE was without sub ...

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  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    The fact is, PvP players fall roughly into two camps (and yes, I know many bridge it too) - the ones who enjoy the challenge and playstyle, and the ones who get a buzz from one-sided encounters, ganking and endless insults afterwards - the kinds of people who will try their hardest to utterly ruin the online experience of other people and then wail endlessly if any controls are put in place - guards, consequence systems, flags etc.

    The OP does seem to empathise with the latter type of player. Seriously thinking that a desire to avoid the 'borstal playground' bahaviour of such PvP players is an issue of 'fear' is clearly ridiculous. To think it is a factor is more of an indication of the mindset of the person asking the question than it will ever be of those refered to.

     

    You are completely wrong. Read my others posts and see for yourself if i like gankers or no. In one of these posts, i advocate a system where a high lv player has your lv automaticaly decreased when entering a lower lv zone.

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

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  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    The majjority of posts from page 15 ahead only repeat things already discussed in this very thread, so is no necessary to answer for now, i will only wait them read the rest and do new contrapositions.

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

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  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon
    The only problem I have with PvP is people that tend to PvP only have god complex issues.  If they kill someone they're the greatest player to ever log into a computer.  If someone kills them, they have to be hacking to kill me!
  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004
     
    [horrendousness and blaah blah blah]

    If the same flaws from the pvp fight are present in pve in very worst degree, so i necessarily come to the conclusion that isn't that flaws the main cause of the distaste of some people to the pvp, but the real possibility of to lose, to die or have much work.

    And the conclusion is still wrong. It's two different objectives at play. It has nothing to do with fears or flaws or the real possibility of to lose, to die or have much work.

     

    That post was specifically adressed only to people that say to avoid/hate pvp only because balance/fainess issues or because the pvp fight is crap. I showed that pve is far worst than pvp in these same aspects, therefore these aren't the real reasons to them avoid/hate pvp.

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • TheIdealistTheIdealist ThessalonikiPosts: 12Member Uncommon
    Open world pvp is the best thing ever made for mmorpg's! Without open world pvp it's a little bit like a singleplayer game...
This discussion has been closed.