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Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by maplestone Originally posted by maccarthur2004 So, the PVE fight is far more "unbalanced" and crap than the pvp (which usually is crap too...imagine).
Given how popular is e-sport (see the huge success of LOL), i doubt many are seeking something else. If they are, they can play games like PS2 where pvp is everywhere.
The point is that different players want different gameplay. It is a mistake to ignore e-sports, which is obviously popular.
E-sports lack the political/diplomatic/social/economic aspects provided by a sandbox mmo with free pvp. They only have the tactical aspect (the fight itself), which is very good but we can have more.
I kind of fail to understand the purpose of this thread, and I did read the original poster's first offering.
What I was reading was something alone the lines of " I played UO as my first MMO and it had PvP as its only option for server type, and everyone accepted it and got used to it. "
Well, that's cool and all, but when UO was brand new a friend of mine that was playing it said " hey, check this out ". I did and the game wasn't my thing. I felt the graphics were too crude and I wasn't a big fan of the Diablo style camera angle. So I took a pass on it, and many other people felt the same as I did.
Everquest came out soon after from Sony. Huzzah, it had better graphics, different camera options, and so I felt more comfortable playing it. Surprise surprise, it was offered intentionally as a PvE centric game, which people accepted and got used to.
So... I don't get the point of your post. You had a First Time Experience with MMO's with UO that was PvP centric. Other people had First Time Experiences with MMO's that are PvE centric. That's simple enough to understand, but you failed to get another concept as being understood when you placed "people that don't like pvp" in two different camps.
A third kind of player likes PvP IF THE GAME IS MADE FOR PVP from the ground up. I happen to be one of those. I'm mostly "scared" of PvP in games that use character mechanics that are intended for PvE play that are altered and balanced and put through the wringer over and over by Devs when those mechanics are used for PvP. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone with that sentiment.
I've played on exclusively pvp servers before and enjoyed it. My problem with pvp is it forces you to min/max. I don't mind that some of the time but most of the time i prefer playing characters based on my mood.
People that say such PvPers should go play games like Planetside2 and LoL are fucking stupid
That's like saying you PvEers should go play offline games.
OWPVP for the win.
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Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by maplestone Originally posted by maccarthur2004 So, the PVE fight is far more "unbalanced" and crap than the pvp (which usually is crap too...imagine).
Who cares - people make millions on E-sports and that is why it is popular. Who cares what a sandbox game gives you as far as the rest, if you have asshats in the game that always post in chat - 'I PWN NOOBS - I AM LEET!' People get sick of seeing that and the other asshat behavior.
"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum
Originally posted by evilastro You forgot the main reason people dont like OWPvP. It is rarely 'fair'. OWPvP is too susceptible to unstoppable zergs. Run around with a group of 6 and what chance does 1 player stand against you? Get a raid of players and you can wipe out any small groups without breaking a sweat. This is what happens when you get OWPvP. You dont get fair 1 one 1 fights, or even full group vs full group. Sure you get them sometimes against rogue characters, but the only reason they are engaging you 1 on 1 is because they know that they have the advantage from getting the jump on you. More often than not you will get full groups of stealthed players hiding near PvE objectives simply to grief soloers and small groups. Now your response is probably 'Well its a MMO, you should be grouping anyway'. Which is fair enough I guess, but these types of players wont engage anyone that would be a challenge or even a fair fight. They only engage when its obvious they will win. Which is why OWPvP is such a noxious beast and puts many PvE players off. Instanced PvP on the other hand is optional. You cant be taken unaware and the numbers are evenly balanced. I wont say its always fair, but it has a lot more chance at being balanced than OWPvP. You mentioned that human controlled characters are harder to kill - fair point, but if you really enjoy the challenge of fighting another player, wouldnt it be better to do it in an instanced scenario where you know its a balanced fight? While I have enjoyed OWPvP on a few games, often I just cant be bothered because I know it will turn into a senseless gankfest with no challenge whatsoever. You either steamroll or you get steamrolled, no skill needed. That's why I prefer instanced PvP seperate from the open world.
As said before, instanced pvp only provides the fight itself, the tactical aspect, but lacks the political/social/diplomatic/economic aspects provided by a mmo full of disputable resources in the open world and free pvp. BGs are like "colosseums" and OWPvP like a world where there is war and political disputes.
Originally posted by cheyane Originally posted by maccarthur2004 My first mmos played (UO and L2) had open PVP and it was regarded as essential part of the enviroment, indispensable to the social, political and economic dynamics of the virtual world. People in almost totality did all the other things provided by the server (pve, craft, etc) preparing to pvp in search of resources, domains, ownerships of castles/fortress/territorys, glory, respect, rivalry, revenge, fun and etc. I only made contact with people that hate PVP after joining WoW and reading foruns. This was a novelty to me and let me very intrigued and curious about the reasons of the people that avoid PVP. Reading opinions and various texts in the internet, i saw that this population "pvp-hater" can be subdivided in 2 categories: people that likes or is indiferent to pvp itself, but hates the "free pvp" ("open world FFA pvp") and people that are truly scared of any type of pvp, even the structured. I came to a conclusion about the ultimate (or primary) causes that make PVP be disliked by some people:
That assumption is only because you played UO and L2 I played Everquest so your point of view is not relevant to me. It is only because initially the games within the MMORPG sphere were limited. Even then with Trammel even UO changed. So your whole premise is a personal experience and not facts you would like to extrapolate. Crafting,interaction ,political and social structure worked remarkably well in Everquest and Everquest players from 1999 can attest to this. Guilds gained glory by downing dragons and that victory was sweet to be server firsts. I think your narrow view is not one held by those of us who played Everquest as our first MMORPG.
The mmos that i played before matters little or nothing to what i am defending in the thread: the primary or "deep" reasons to some people avoid or hate pvp. They only explains my initial strangeness of the this subject.
It's not that pvp "scares people" per se, its rather that everyone has their own particular TYPE of pvp that they strongly prefer over all others.
For me I dont like totally full loot systems, a system like shadowbane had is preferential to me, equipment degredation with inventory loot.
Over all though I prefer games like planetside 2 where I can be a small part in a larger machine, I guess you could say this is a skill issue, since i just dont have the reaction time to be good in your traditional small group or individual pvp, especially when the combat comes down to timing cooldowns, using counter or stun abilities or generally just micromanaging alot of different abilities.
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 As said before, WoW is one of the worst mmos regading the easiness to gank. I think this fact is partly responsible for the extreme skepticism of some people about the possibility of effectively control gank in a mmo with free pvp.
I think the lack of a successful example certainly helps the skepticism stay strong.
Not saying it can't be done, just not sure the effort to deal with it would be a useful expenditure of time.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by maccarthur2004
I came to a conclusion about the ultimate (or primary) causes that make PVP be disliked by some people: 1- PVE characters stays in certain spots waiting to be approached, while players can come to you. 2- Human-controled characters is much more harder to defeat in 99% of the time. 3- In most mmos, PVE offfers more guaranteed rewards. In summary: pvp requires more work, attention and skill to be handled (either fighting, fleeing, dodging or avoiding) and not always gives valuable rewards to tempt the people turned away by these requirements.
The points are correct, the conclusion is wrong.
Points 1 and 2 are the same - mobs are static and easy. Point 3 is part of the reason for that. For most MMO gamers, the mobs are a means to their goal - the goal being advancement. Fighting mobs in and of itself is not a primary goal for most players. An example of this is how many TERA players found the Bigg Ass Monsters (BAMs) very fun earlier on when they were a small part of leveling, but in the areas where they are primary content, many avoid it or look to get past it as fast as possible.
In PvP, the battle is the goal for the PvPer and an obstacle to one's goal for the PvE player. The challenges and objectives the PvE player is working toward in their PvE experience is greatly different from the challenges presented when a PvP player intervenes.
"My first mmos played (UO and L2) had open PVP and it was regarded as essential part of the enviroment, indispensable to the social, political and economic dynamics of the virtual world."
You are part of that 20% or so that engages in that activity. That is why you see it as essential and indispensable. You more than likely have not had much contact with people on the other side or experienced the other side, which would explain why after so many years you are writing this post, mystified about the playstyle of the other 80% or so of the playerbase. Your follow up posts reinforce this, as it is clear it isn't so much that you disagree with what others are presenting, rather playstyles outside of your own are so foreign to you taht you seem to be having trouble undertsanding them. Until such a time when PvPers are having their PvP experience ruined by someone baking bread at them, the gamers who engage primarily in FFA PVP will maintain a general disconnect with the rest of the playerbase's perspective on how different playstyles impact gameplay.
In short, they are not afraid of PVP or PVPers, they are simply playing a different game than you are.
Nice post. There is nothing i disagree.
In fact, as already said by other guy here, PVE and PVP are 2 things that not necessarily mix well, and PVPers and PVErs seek completely different experiences: while the pvper (the majority) wanna challenging fights and others challenges that only humans can deliver, the pvers wanna only "progress" their characters through a easy and no-risky collection or gathering of things.
Originally posted by Arglebargle Originally posted by maccarthur2004 As said before, WoW is one of the worst mmos regading the easiness to gank. I think this fact is partly responsible for the extreme skepticism of some people about the possibility of effectively control gank in a mmo with free pvp.
I SWEAR to you, with all my heart, that i was much more frequently ganked in WoW than in L2. WoW fails more in preventing gank than most mmos, even FFA mmos.
Originally posted by botrytis Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by maplestone Originally posted by maccarthur2004 So, the PVE fight is far more "unbalanced" and crap than the pvp (which usually is crap too...imagine).
This ^^ If players don't care about the political aspects, why spend resources on it?
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
well, actually OWPvP does not have to have politics. PS2 has zero politics, and it is open world. Personally i highly doubt the politics/social/diplomatic stuff is why people pvp.
Look at the popular pvp games (like WOT, LOL, even WW2online & PS2), it is about jump in and have battles .. the only advantage of a MMOpvp vs COD is that there are more poeple, and the game never "ends" and reset.
Personally, i like PS2 .. and i don't want politics or socialization ... it is all about (for me) be able to jump in, find a good vantage point, and head shot people (sniper play style, i am sure there are other ones too).
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Originally posted by Arglebargle Originally posted by maccarthur2004 As said before, WoW is one of the worst mmos regading the easiness to gank. I think this fact is partly responsible for the extreme skepticism of some people about the possibility of effectively control gank in a mmo with free pvp.
Not the point. Wow is irrelevant. Always an outlier. Controlling ganking, griefing, etc is the point. Games whose rules help damaged asshats ruin someone's day are the problem. Those guys are not playing the same game as everyone else, as their desire is to just make someone feel bad. And believe me, most developers understand that these types of players drive paying customers away.
I have played competitive chess, still have loads of miniatures armies, etc. But I have the choice of who to play with, in most FTF encounters. There are stiill some social controls in FTF gaming. Not so much on all internet gaming.
Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Originally posted by DSWBeef Its not that im against pvp. Im against full loot FORCED pvp. Thats the main reason I dont play MO or DF. I shouldnt be forced into entering a pvp situation. Thats why I enjoy pve servers, I can pvp When I choose to.
Wrong. Its full blown OW PVP. Its just the third continent that is FFA OWPvP without consequence (faction hits).
I dislike Instanced anything in an MMO... takes away the fact that your playing an MMO.
As for people who dislike OWPvP... More often than not, they have never had the true OWPvP experience (GvG..Group v Group, Faction v Faction etc.) and are basing there entire experience on being killed a few times while fighting a mob, or being ganked by a higher level/group.
So scared might not be the perfect word, but I dont think its the wrong word either.
That or they completely blow at reacting to a noncomputer character that isn't scripted to act the same way over and over again.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Originally posted by picommander One of the best PVP games I've ever played (and actually enjoyed!) was Warbirds. This was a twitched based game with quite realistic flight physics. Unfortunately it suffered from another issue not mentionied in this thread (from what I've read so far): different ping times on oversee connections. This will either give a huge disadvantage to the player with the slower ping times or (even worse) let him warp around and let him look like a cheater. So really good PVP either needs localized servers (which splits the community) or not being twitched based at all. But who wants either of that?
What is wrong with localized servers? I play PS2 .. and i really don't care much who i am playing with as long as there is a big battle.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by picommander One of the best PVP games I've ever played (and actually enjoyed!) was Warbirds. This was a twitched based game with quite realistic flight physics. Unfortunately it suffered from another issue not mentionied in this thread (from what I've read so far): different ping times on oversee connections. This will either give a huge disadvantage to the player with the slower ping times or (even worse) let him warp around and let him look like a cheater. So really good PVP either needs localized servers (which splits the community) or not being twitched based at all. But who wants either of that?
You might be right if PVP is nothing more than big anonymous battles for you, with out much social ascpects. But such a game would look like a niche product in my book. Also, ask the producers about the costs of multi server maintanance...
Originally posted by picommander Originally posted by nariusseldon
Niche product? Isn't that what BF3 is like .. and what PS2 is like. I wouldn't call a jump in and shoot pvp game a niche product.
In fact, anything with political or social aspect is a niche product. Eve is much more niche, than say COD, or LOL.
It is quite simple really. Some people dont want to do PvP because it is hard, much harder than PvE. PvE mobs just stand there and wait to be farmed by people where as people are much more unpredictable and dificult to farm.
That being said, there certainly are negative elements associated to PvP, as seen in games like Eve. But like with most things, you take the good with the bad and for me PvE is far too boring for me to play exclusively. I need some PvP to challenge me and shake me up, AI dont do that.
People have to realise how incredibly different mmo pvp is to fps pvp. In a fps shooter I can typically get used to the controls and start killing people (who even have crazy unlocks) with a decent chance. In an mmo a new player typically can't kill someone 5 levels above them let alone 45+ levels. It simply isn't fun to head out into an area to level and then be ganked by roaming groups of players totaling 200+ levels combined to you and possible a buddy or two totalling 60 levels. If this imbalance was in any other pvp game in any genre anywhere in the world it would be considered the worst pvp game ever made ... yet we see it all the time in mmos.
I have know many players who simply did not like pvp period. That is their right but most players do at least try it and many indeed love it but the added stress of being thrown into battlegrounds or even worse the open world you normally play in and then be put light years beneath others in power and expected to compete is far too annoying for many to handle.
Pve and pvp have always been a challenge. On one hand players traditionally (through rpg games and older mmos) like the sense of gaining power through pve. It is the addictive quality of the game. On the other hand pvp is about equality where skill should shine over gear advantage. Real pvp players I know want this. They do not want to face roll everyone (sadly many others enjoy face rolling but I feel it is a symptom created from pve levels in pvp hence all the noob zone gankers we see in most games) and want a chance to prove their skill and skill alone. It is incredibily hard to make the perfect mmo where both pve and pvp are deep and meaningful.
We are however starting to see new mechanics addressing this (scaled pvp and downscaling pve levels to zones) but I haven't been impressed by them thus far and they tend to be incredibly flawed. Personally I'd like to see a game where your effective level scales with your area. As you gain in power you can explore farther away places with greater challenge but as you head into lower power areas your effective power scales down so even mobs still pose a threat 100 feet from noob towns. Noob zone bosses would still be such a challenge they would drop gear for your potential level and not noobs. This would stop camping for noob gear for alts or AH sales as well. The game would never have content you out level. Of course this would affect pvp as well. I can't see well geared players not having a slight edge over noobs due to experience and more class skills but a stat cap for your average geared player in those areas could help. NOTE of course that I mean seemless scaling and no zone hard lines.
I know GW2 has attempted this but the game is complete crap in my mind and has no open world pvp anyway. The entire point to scaling is for open world pvp in sandbox games where any space in the game is potential for equal and fair combat.
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Originally posted by Yamota It is quite simple really. Some people dont want to do PvP because it is hard, much harder than PvE. PvE mobs just stand there and wait to be farmed by people where as people are much more unpredictable and dificult to farm. That being said, there certainly are negative elements associated to PvP, as seen in games like Eve. But like with most things, you take the good with the bad and for me PvE is far too boring for me to play exclusively. I need some PvP to challenge me and shake me up, AI dont do that.
There is so many wrong implicit assumption in that statement.
PvE is not challenging? That is just wrong. There are hard core raids in MMOs, monster level in Diablo 3. There are many examples of PvE encounters that you are just not likely to beat. In fact, it is much harder for me to beat Diablo on MP10, then head shooting some guy in PS2.
And you don't always need the ultra most challegning gameplay to have fun. What is wrong with mowing down mobs and feel powerful? Nothing if that is fun for you.
There is an assumption in your post that does not address a major issue with mmo pvp. You said pvp is harder. In fact I have attempted such difficult pve challenges in many mmos (I love to test the extreme ability of my character) that the challenge dwarfed equal pvp. In fact I typically am very good at mmo pvp and if it has batteground style pvp with ranks I often rank top 3 with ease and sometimes #1 so far ahead of others I often wonder who the hell even showed up to fight.
The caveate: It has to be EQUAL pvp. Equal gear and level. The major issue is that this RARELY ever happens in an mmo. It only happens if a game has either no gear scaling (pretty much no mmo has this) or in ranked pvp instancing (so forget about open world pvp) which not all mmos have either. You talk about difficulty but there is a massive difference between it being harder to kill a player over a typical mob and having to kill a player who has 3 times the stats you do because they have end game gear and you don't. On top of this most mmos have different gear for pve and pvp so a player with BIS is still forced to be a total light weight when starting pvp against the heavy weights of the game. The only way I see pvp equality is to have all server side calculations in pvp based on preset stats outside of whatever gear you have. I don't see most hardcore pvp'rs and especially the developer having the balls to do it.
It is that issue that turns many off pvp. They are never even given the chance to try it on equal terms. There is a reason we don't have a major fighting sport where non-athletes are thrown into a ring with a champion of their discipline. Imagine some 170lb man in decent shape but little experience thrown in with UFC fighter Alistair Overeem (google his pic if you don't know him) ... imagine the carnage. This is exactly what happens in mmo pvp on a daily basis.