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Aventurine "gets it". I wish all MMO devs did.

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Shouldn't your avatar be a bit more, I dunno, moth-y?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Member UncommonPosts: 2,380
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

    Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

    I know it isn't and its sad. I feel that the points I mentioned are the root of the cause of the effects that you mentioned. 

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,373
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

    Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

    I know it isn't and its sad. I feel that the points I mentioned are the root of the cause of the effects that you mentioned. 

    Hard to tell which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Are the features mentioned a response to the other, or did the features themselves cause the negative effects?

     

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  • DarthRaidenDarthRaiden Member UncommonPosts: 4,333
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

    Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

    I know it isn't and its sad. I feel that the points I mentioned are the root of the cause of the effects that you mentioned. 

    Hard to tell which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Are the features mentioned a response to the other, or did the features themselves cause the negative effects?

     

    All i know is the time this genre has been invented there was no instance etc. it was a hell of a time with great communities for all playstyles, crazy communications and chats with people doing all kind of fun stuff, using the game mechanics  in games that ALLOWED that to happen.

    The explorer was next to achiever and they worked hand in hand and some crazy designer designed both them homes and all together they watched someone dance (possible in SWG for example) . They together might build a city and while doing that some crazy nerd working solely with spreadsheets and being laughed at at start filled their vendors with all kind of stuff that exeeded even from developers set ranges on crafting items. 

    No one can tell me that THIS isn't a MMORPG i lived it and i loved it !

    Away with singleplayer mentalitiesand and playstyle monoculture already..it makes the human brain sick ! ans those who wasn't here to experience it getting fooled  by unispired moneygrabber companies or those who lack talent or give up.

    DF had the chance to become what i described above, they died on the way on the medicrity and the mindset of their producers (i believe the developers and especially the Razorwax guys still would work on a real good MMORPG but the money division is in the hands of Tasos )

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  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144
    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    DF had the chance to become what i described above, they died on the way on the medicrity and the mindset of their producers (i believe the developers and especially the Razorwax guys still would work on a real good MMORPG but the money division is in the hands of Tasos )

     

    I won't disagree with your reasoning that somewhere along the way DF changed, but I don't think the game was changed to make more money.   I feel that after posting their intial game mechanics it had changed from a MMORPG to a PvP arena.  Any interview that Tacos has done always seems to emphasize that DF is " fast-paced ", and many of the design choices they made reflected that idea.  There really hasn't been a time that he ever stated a goal to create a living breathing world.   It was always about the idea that players would be in an eternal battle over Agon.

     

     

  • FearumFearum Member UncommonPosts: 1,175
    Im gonna give it a shot, df 1 was a turd, I hope they polished up enough this time. Yeah its more like mortal combat/streetfighter than a rpg.
  • AconsarAconsar Member Posts: 262
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    So no high resolution textures then?

    I'd rather a game look like Minecraft if it allowed for complete open, non-instanced gameworld than I would have it look like <enter any ADD overly flashy new age game here>.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,769
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

    Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

    I know it isn't and its sad. I feel that the points I mentioned are the root of the cause of the effects that you mentioned. 

    Hard to tell which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Are the features mentioned a response to the other, or did the features themselves cause the negative effects?

     

     Some of it is a result of player complaining.  Remember rare world boss spawns in eq?  Some players got vocal about it.

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Shouldn't your avatar be a bit more, I dunno, moth-y?

    lol, I smell a googler. You come across as far too powerful and attractive to have much of an interest in Entomology.

    You do make a good point, though. But personally, I didn't want to be known as that weird "moth guy" (I wouldn't be able to live with myself; who could?). As stunning as the Cecropia is, I felt that this genius H.R. Giger painting better represented me as the adored and celebrated forum royal that I am ;)

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • BadaboomBadaboom Member UncommonPosts: 2,380
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

    Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

    I know it isn't and its sad. I feel that the points I mentioned are the root of the cause of the effects that you mentioned. 

    Hard to tell which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Are the features mentioned a response to the other, or did the features themselves cause the negative effects?

     

    Instead of writing a long winded response I will point out tragedy and hard times draw people together. This is as true in real life as it is a video game.  So the trend of video games getting easier is in fact pushing people further apart and destroying the MMO community. 

    It could be argued that you just want to have fun and don't want to feel like you are working in a game but it is the work that brings a more meaningful achievement. 

    Not really directing this post to you as I think you "get it".

     

    ps: and I'm not saying that their is no place for the ultra casual games like GW2 as they are really good for a quick fix. 

  • azzamasinazzamasin Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    Originally posted by xDayx
    Yep. Open world is one of the sandbox tenets. Themeparkers will  never understand the appeal though.

    Yea but if your only open world tenets consists of mainly PvP then the're missing a large chunk of what makes sandparks appeal to all MMO gamers.  Things like Crafting, Building, Housing, freedom of exploration and discovery in a PvE enviornment.  Open World PvP'ers will never understand the appeal though.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • jahgreenjahgreen Member UncommonPosts: 39
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by xDayx
    Yep. Open world is one of the sandbox tenets. Themeparkers will  never understand the appeal though.

    Yea but if your only open world tenets consists of mainly PvP then the're missing a large chunk of what makes sandparks appeal to all MMO gamers.  Things like Crafting, Building, Housing, freedom of exploration and discovery in a PvE enviornment.  Open World PvP'ers will never understand the appeal though.

     

    Except Darkfall hae crafting, building, player housin and exploration. So I do not understand your point. You kinda shot yourself in the foot.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by jahgreen

    Except Darkfall hae crafting, building, player housin and exploration. So I do not understand your point. You kinda shot yourself in the foot.

    Most of the cars have some sound system installed but I doubt there are many people buying cars just because of that.

  • jahgreenjahgreen Member UncommonPosts: 39
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by jahgreen

    Except Darkfall hae crafting, building, player housin and exploration. So I do not understand your point. You kinda shot yourself in the foot.

     

    Most of the cars have some sound system installed but I doubt there are many people buying cars just because of that.

    I like the anlogy, but that being said DF is a non instanced beautiful world to discover. Has awesome player housing. The crafting at the higher tiers is a little more in depth than most but I would agree the old system could use some work. So we shall see how the new system is.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Member CommonPosts: 2,556
    Originally posted by kartool
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by kartool
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Redemp
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Redemp

     I really don't understand why everyone is singing AV's praises, Because the majority of MMO veterans agree with their philosphy on instancing?

    I also question why anyone would consider AV a sucessful studio

    Because their company went from 20 devs at launch, to 60 devs now. They're in a bigger building, they opened another server, whereas most MMOs close servers after launch. They now have enough money to self publish? They're releasing a new game? You don't do that when you haven't been successful.

     You do understand the game was dead in the water, stalled out, with no information on the release of Darkfall 2010 ( ....) right up until they announced their new investors in Feb of this year? The game wasn't "dead in the water" The devs were working on a huge update, which became the new game. Which is what we're getting, for free. If the game was dead in the water, AV's staff wouldn't be increasing, thats the opposite of how business works.

     They had two servers, the EU server is now dead. No kidding, both servers have been shut down. They lacked a substantial amount of subscribers to justify opening more servers, its a niche market the same standards of success and failure do not apply here. By all metrics, the game was a success.

    There are other reasons to be happy with AV, but declaring them one of the most sucessful studios in the last eight years is grasping at straws.

    Reality must hurt you for some reason. If we look at growth, the vast majority of MMOs and MMO companies have been shrinking and CLOSING servers. AV did the opposite.

    Because they were finally letting people buy their game?

    The only time people couldn't buy the game whenever they wanted was the first week of launch. Know why? Because if all 300k people bought the game and tried to pile into a server that had a max capacity of 30k players, NOBODY would get to play, and they'd all have payed for it.

    Sounds like AV did the smart thing.

    The smart thing would have been to build a scalable system where they could add capacity quickly if necessary - not turn away customers.

    Technology has its limits dude. And small companies have money limits. They couldn't just buy a shit load of huge server farms to handle the initial influx, and then shut those servers down once the initial rush left. That would bankrupt them.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Member CommonPosts: 2,556
    Originally posted by Aconsar
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    So no high resolution textures then?

    I'd rather a game look like Minecraft if it allowed for complete open, non-instanced gameworld than I would have it look like .

    Graphics have nothing to do with whether a game is instanced or not. Graphics are client side. Instances improve server performance, not client side performance.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Member CommonPosts: 2,556
    Originally posted by Gdemami

    erm...didn't they open NA server just because of lag?

    They opened it because there were a ton of NA players who said they wouldn't buy/play until they had a server closer to home. An NA server was always part of the plan but it took longer to find a server partner in NA. That, and I believe AV sent technicians to the server farm locations to initially set them up. Going to California takes longer than going to Germany, from Greece.

     

  • BuniontToesBuniontToes Member Posts: 529
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    So no high resolution textures then?

    DFO1 had high res textures if your system would handle it.  DFO1 was beuatiful with settings cranked up.  However, as a PvP game many (if not most) turned settings down 9like every other PvP game) to get better perfromance.

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by Aconsar
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    So no high resolution textures then?

    I'd rather a game look like Minecraft if it allowed for complete open, non-instanced gameworld than I would have it look like .

    /agree

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

    Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

    I know it isn't and its sad. I feel that the points I mentioned are the root of the cause of the effects that you mentioned. 

    Hard to tell which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Are the features mentioned a response to the other, or did the features themselves cause the negative effects?

     

    Instead of writing a long winded response I will point out tragedy and hard times draw people together. This is as true in real life as it is a video game.  So the trend of video games getting easier is in fact pushing people further apart and destroying the MMO community. 

    It could be argued that you just want to have fun and don't want to feel like you are working in a game but it is the work that brings a more meaningful achievement. 

    Not really directing this post to you as I think you "get it".

     

    ps: and I'm not saying that their is no place for the ultra casual games like GW2 as they are really good for a quick fix. 

    Well said i agree with all you said here :)

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by jahgreen
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by xDayx
    Yep. Open world is one of the sandbox tenets. Themeparkers will  never understand the appeal though.

    Yea but if your only open world tenets consists of mainly PvP then the're missing a large chunk of what makes sandparks appeal to all MMO gamers.  Things like Crafting, Building, Housing, freedom of exploration and discovery in a PvE enviornment.  Open World PvP'ers will never understand the appeal though.

     

    Except Darkfall hae crafting, building, player housin and exploration. So I do not understand your point. You kinda shot yourself in the foot.

    Sure it is there but it is there in its most basic form. Crafting is basic, player housing is basic, City building is even basic and exploration is basic. The game was made only for PvP in mind nothing else, (although PvE AI may be an upgrade from WoW mob AI's)

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    So no high resolution textures then?

    why not? they dont hesitate to charge a subscription + box + expansion + additional services (cash shop) these days to "maintain and evolve" the game so.... our money has to go to development in general and we havent seen that happening lately. The technology is there already, and keeps evolving on a fast pace. I personally think its lame when there are excuses that an mmo cant have some features put together because maybe the servers cant handle the resource demands or something. If you (dev) cant evolve the genre then dont make just another clone and then charge full price on top of it.

     

    EDIT: note im not talking about DarkFall, that goes to any developer that sacrifices game features for lame reasons.





  • samvenicesamvenice Member UncommonPosts: 153
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    However, DAoC functioned perfectly without instances. I never waited in line for a mob spawn. Nobody ever stole my kills (which I always found to be a dumb objection anyway, because if someone were to go about stealing your kills, they could do it in the public zones just as easily)

    I did wait in line for a mob spawn. A lot. Both rare spawns and also xp groups in "special spot" where you had to get on a "list"

    Helped only by the fact that playing on US server, I had the EU timezone to my advantage.

    Examples: Cloudsong, Shades of Mist, GoV, Battler etc (and in some cases, not even drop guaranteed! so had to camp and get kill stolen some more!). (or dragon epic not being up - lol)

    It was common practice to rely on community that whoever was camping an encounter, had the "right" to get it. Still, there were some jackasses rush in and zerg the shit out of everything. So while the quoted statement is absolutely NOT true, on the other hand it's worth mentioning that the lack of instances pushed people to work together, to forge a sense of community, to "organize lists" and other forms of self-discipline which lead to a true MMO feeling.

    I did not like darkfall for other reasons and will never play it again, as some of its design choices are definititely not my cup of tea: however, kudos to bold devs having the balls to do something different and speak the truth.

  • Shoko_LiedShoko_Lied Member UncommonPosts: 2,193
    I have no clue why. But I had a dream that a bunch of developers were criticizing Tasos and saying how he is naive.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    An NA server was always part of the plan

    Can you provide a quote how NA server was always part of the plan?

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