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Why PVP scares some people?

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  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by Sinella
    Originally posted by ace80k
    I think the answer is pretty simple really. Lack of control/fear of the unknown. In PvE you can control or at least predict the outcome of any fight, PvP can be very different in many aspects. I'm talking about people who absolutely 100% "hate" PvP btw. I think anger issues tie into this as well.

    It's not that I can't predict the outcome of the fight. The thing is that I DON'T want to fight at times, and don't like to be forced into it. Sovrath's post explain it very well.

    Look item 1.

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    I have a feeling you are already wrong on your basic presumption that people avoid PvP out of fear.  If most are like me, it's due to irritation, asshats and cheaters / hackers.

    Maybe i have chosen wrong the term (English is not my native language). When i said "scared", i dint mean something like the "dread" of horror movies, but only the "mistrust" or "dismay"  that some people seens to demonstrate and speak when knowing that some game will have no-restricted pvp.

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by NightBandit

    I'm none of what the Op mentioned, however why I'm crap at PvP is I'm really lazy and poor player because I always use the mouse and keyboard and don't use hot keys and keyboard to take full advantage. Because I'm just lazy as fook, so I'm never going to win.

    That said I do like the PvP in EvE again though you need to know your keys so as not to take week to lock a target and I'm getting there slowly.

     But I also feel most games lose balance with PvP and PvE so they never really gel it's either one or the other which stands out.

    Bandit

    Item 2

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,731Member Uncommon
        I wouldn't say I am scared of PVP, but the problem I have with it is that it is never a fair fight....I think the reason why people like battleground PVP is often is more equal than open world pvp.....Sandbox games are notorious for unfair PVP often with very high level players killing beginnings players unmercifully......I actually found some PVP games like WAR fun for a few levels, but then it reached a point where my character was stymied for entire battles by too much CC in the game.....Overall PVP doesn't scare me , it often just isn't fun when you have no chance.
  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by IG-88

    All the PvP:ers ive seen is a lot of griefing kids and i have no interest of being ganked when out doing a quest.

    Simple as that.

     

    Item 1, same as the next post...

     

    I was not wanting to defend gank or even OWPvP, but only try to explain the ultimate or "deep" causes to the aversion of some people to the pvp compared to the pve.

    PVE AI characters only stay in their spots waiting to be butchered like livestock in the pasture. I DONT see any "fun" in doing this forever (except in the start, when the game is new and have good fight mechanics). I only butcher the AI controled weak/passive/dumb characters to obtain things to become stronger to the PVP, never by the sake of the pve itself.

     

     

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • SiderasSideras HelsingborgPosts: 231Member

    I don't think this is an issue with the rules of the games, it's a problem with the community. I've seen this development with my own eyes. Back in the days people had balls and some sportmanship today peoples sole intention is to be assholes, because apparently that's cool.

    Take WoW for instance, a real cesspool in that regard. I experience so much shit playing that game something I never encountered in DAoC. Open PvP in WoW and many other games today net you nothing, not a single fucking thing. Whenever I wanted to fight someone in the open I did the following: Wait for the to kill the mob they are fighting, let the regen health and mana and then approach and attack. I have honor, people had honor before, but the don't today.

    Try playing a game of Dota/hon/LoL, biggest cesspool in the history of gaming, such an obnoxious and disgusting community. I remember the days when saying "good fight" or "GG" meant something positive, today it's seems to be considered an insult.

    So shitty sportsmanship from PvPers is probably the main reason PvE players don't want to partiticipate. And it's not like winning is going to satisfy them either [mod edit]. If I see that someone can't beat me in PvP I'm not going to bother, what's the point when you don't even get a challenge out of it?

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by eindinbloch
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

     

     

    2- Human-controled characters is much more harder to defeat in 99% of the time.

     

     

    Not when you're 20 levels higher and in god gear.

    Plus this.

    You forgot to quote the "in equal conditions", written in the second line of the paragraph.

    The mismatch of levels is discussed in item 1. Is a wrong thing, but i think the players wouldn't complain much if a AI controlled stronger monster would wander the land killing people, but would do the logic thing: flee/dodge/avoid the threat, report and ask for help from stronger players.

     

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member

    All the answers fits the itens exposed in the text (i am still in page 5, i will still read the others). A interesting fact about the gank is the difference between WoW (a paradigm of the themepark mmo pve focused) with Lineage 2 (a mmo famous be its free pvp): in WoW, althought half of the server cant kill you, a lv 85 can kill a lv 1 with TOTAL impunity! In L2,  is VERY risky a high level PK a player with lower lv because of a karma (bigger in proportion to the lv disparity) that can make him drops his gear that took months to get.

    So, paradoxically, WoW is more "gank-friendly" than L2 althougt hasn't FFA pvp.

    The example of WoW can "obscure" the mind of most people about ganking, because is RARE a mmo where gank is so unpunished as in WoW.

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    my view of ganking - from the gankee's viewpoint since I dont gank myself is this:

     

    it's fine.

     

    I'm a levl 20. a level 90 who's at war with me appears in front of me. WHAT COULD REALISTICALLY HAPPEN IN THIS SCENARIO except me ending up dead ?

     

    He's stronger than me, it's my job to avoid him. I failed. He has earned the right to kill me. In NOD's words...

     

    Peace Through Power.

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  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    My first mmos played (UO and L2) had open PVP and it was regarded as essential part of the enviroment, indispensable to the social, political and economic dynamics of the virtual world.

    I don't agree with your first sentence.

    MMOs that try to simulate a "realistic" political and social enviroment needs open pvp. PVP with predefined factions took from the players the control of who is friend/ally or enemy, which damages the political/social/diplomatic challenge. Sandboxes have much resources in the OW that need to be disputed. They could do a "siege system" to all of them (including a mob spot), but the amount of disputable resources is so huge that is easier let the pvp open and free. :D

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    my view of ganking - from the gankee's viewpoint since I dont gank myself is this:

     

    it's fine.

     

    I'm a levl 20. a level 90 who's at war with me appears in front of me. WHAT COULD REALISTICALLY HAPPEN IN THIS SCENARIO except me ending up dead ?

     

    He's stronger than me, it's my job to avoid him. I failed. He has earned the right to kill me. In NOD's words...

     

    Peace Through Power.

    The idea of a character lv decreasing to fits each zone pleases me. A other good idea is creating a system that allows two lv 20 players fight one lv 40 with equal chances. The mmos today has a system where twenty lv 10 cant kill one lv 50, this is illogical and bad.

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    the 'level problem' i  agree with. your solution, however I do not.

     

    if a level 20 can kill a level 50 because you retard-down the level 50...that's insulting to the level 50.

     

    i don't believe in levels, but if you're going to have levels you got to go through with them.

     

    if a level 20 can kill a level 50 player, can he also kill a level 50 spider ? if NO, then WTF is this? if yes, why have levels ?

     

    if the balance of power is vastly different in pve than in pvp, you're creating a very lifeless world. because PvE should at least somewhat emulate player interaction. you cant make a level 50 warrior-player killable but a level 50 bandit-npc 3 times stronger. because the level 50 player can kill the level 50 bandit. it makes no sense even in fantasy. it's too distracting.

     

     

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  • SvendSvinSvendSvin Viby JPosts: 9Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    Some people (i dont know if the majority or no) wanna play a mmo to just  "relax" and do unchallenging things as pastime, like knitting.

    Unchallenging?? Really??

    PVE can be every bit as challenging as PVP can be..  Just like knitting can be challenging.. I dare you to knit a sweater with a 99% accurate WOW logo and tell me it isn't challenging.. It's all about what kind of a challenge you want!!

     

    But what i really got from reading your post is that you are calling PVE'rs lame, docile cattle, who can do nothing except eat whatever is put in front of them.. While the PVP'rs are the real gamers, who got the skills and can make/get their on rewards..

    I'm sorry, but this just sounds like another way to boost the PVP epeen to me..

    - SvendSvin

  • calranthecalranthe stoke on trentPosts: 356Member

    PVP in games really cannot be compared to real life, while we are a warlike species with a varnish of civility real life death and murder consequences and issues both moral and psychological no one should even try to call any pvp system in any game realistic.

    PVP in most games is not and never can be balanced developers just can not come up with a balanced system because pvpers also fall into different categories like the below example

    Honor: those who prefer 1v1, who are all about the challenge and skill of taking down an equal oponent, they would never break into your house or fight you while you sleep/eat/drink/craft, it is all about good fights, hell those kind of pvpers are the ones who will give you advice afterwards on how better to fight them.

    Unfortunately as we all know the above type of pvper is in the absolute minority, no pvp game has ever been able to counter the "griefer" the "bully" the "zerg" because it is a way of thinking not something you can put rules in place to stop.

    Games have no consquence for killing another player, you don't log of and wonder about his family, you don't wash your hands 50 times to try and remove the itchiness and you damn well don't see that person die every time you close your eyes.

    In games it is just a game and that sadly to a lot of people allows them to act as shitty and nasty as possible without ever feeling it, pvp is like the ultimate outlet for people like that and it is why a lot of people avoid pvp games.

    Understand though, I am not scared of pvp indifferent to it, I enjoy pvp myself in EVE but I do understand why so many do not enjoy it.

     

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    the 'level problem' i  agree with. your solution, however I do not.

     

    if a level 20 can kill a level 50 because you retard-down the level 50...that's insulting to the level 50.

     

    i don't believe in levels, but if you're going to have levels you got to go through with them.

     

    if a level 20 can kill a level 50 player, can he also kill a level 50 spider ? if NO, then WTF is this? if yes, why have levels ?

     

    if the balance of power is vastly different in pve than in pvp, you're creating a very lifeless world. because PvE should at least somewhat emulate player interaction. you cant make a level 50 warrior-player killable but a level 50 bandit-npc 3 times stronger. because the level 50 player can kill the level 50 bandit. it makes no sense even in fantasy. it's too distracting.

     

     

    You made a complete mess and mixed things, lets by parts:

    Is ilogical a lv 20 can kill a lv 50, but is logical THREE lv 20 kill ONE lv 50. The idea is to allow a "zerg" of low lvs to have good chances againts one or few high lvs. This makes complete sense. The union makes the strenght.

    The lv fitting to the zone would only decrease, never increase. A low lv couldn't enter a higher zone and have his lv increased, but a high lv would have his decreased if enters a lower zone. This would keep the progression and need to level characters while avoiding the unfair gank. What a high lv wants to do in a low lv zone?

     

     

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,230Member Uncommon

    that's why there are pvp and pve servers.

     

    people join pvp servers tho and then complain about being killed. prob explained. as always: pebiac.

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by SvendSvin
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    Some people (i dont know if the majority or no) wanna play a mmo to just  "relax" and do unchallenging things as pastime, like knitting.

    Unchallenging?? Really??

    PVE can be every bit as challenging as PVP can be..  Just like knitting can be challenging.. I dare you to knit a sweater with a 99% accurate WOW logo and tell me it isn't challenging.. It's all about what kind of a challenge you want!!

    Knitting is not challenging, is only toilsome and prolonged. The only challenge is on learning, after this, some people can knit with closed eyes.

     

     

     

    But what i really got from reading your post is that you are calling PVE'rs lame, docile cattle, who can do nothing except eat whatever is put in front of them.. While the PVP'rs are the real gamers, who got the skills and can make/get their on rewards..

    I'm sorry, but this just sounds like another way to boost the PVP epeen to me..

     

    In most cases, PVP is harder and challenging than PVE, but not all people wants challenge in a mmo or any game, and i respect that.

    But the challenge dont comes only from the pvp fight itself, it also comes from political, social, diplomatic and economic enviromnent that a mmo full of disputable resources allows.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by Thane

    that's why there are pvp and pve servers.

     

    people join pvp servers tho and then complain about being killed. prob explained. as always: pebiac.

    That is other thing that i dont get to understand.

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member

    I disagree with # 2

    PVP in most MMO's is 70% gear stats 20% player skill, and 10% class. I love PVP but I prefer my PVP in the form of FPS games, where there is real tacticas involved. Which is another beef I have with MMO pvp, its all hotbar spamming. MMO PVP is nothing but 1 big joke.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by calranthe

    PVP in games really cannot be compared to real life, while we are a warlike species with a varnish of civility real life death and murder consequences and issues both moral and psychological no one should even try to call any pvp system in any game realistic.

    PVP in most games is not and never can be balanced developers just can not come up with a balanced system because pvpers also fall into different categories like the below example

    Honor: those who prefer 1v1, who are all about the challenge and skill of taking down an equal oponent, they would never break into your house or fight you while you sleep/eat/drink/craft, it is all about good fights, hell those kind of pvpers are the ones who will give you advice afterwards on how better to fight them.

    Unfortunately as we all know the above type of pvper is in the absolute minority, no pvp game has ever been able to counter the "griefer" the "bully" the "zerg" because it is a way of thinking not something you can put rules in place to stop.

    Games have no consquence for killing another player, you don't log of and wonder about his family, you don't wash your hands 50 times to try and remove the itchiness and you damn well don't see that person die every time you close your eyes.

    In games it is just a game and that sadly to a lot of people allows them to act as shitty and nasty as possible without ever feeling it, pvp is like the ultimate outlet for people like that and it is why a lot of people avoid pvp games.

    Understand though, I am not scared of pvp indifferent to it, I enjoy pvp myself in EVE but I do understand why so many do not enjoy it.

     

     

    Virtual world will never be like real life, even with permadeath, but i cant see how this prevents ANY type of deterrence to grief.

     

    Is very simple: penaltys should be proportional to the crimes. In real life, a murderer can be killed or jailed to life. In a mmo, a kill make the victim lose xp, itens or time (ie: time), so the penalty is make the killer lose time too (imprisonement, loss of itens or xp).

    That is sufficiente to zero the griefs? no, but is sufficient to avoid its ocurrence in a lamount that damages the game. Same in real life penaltys.

     

     

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by toddze

    I disagree with # 2

    PVP in most MMO's is 70% gear stats 20% player skill, and 10% class. I love PVP but I prefer my PVP in the form of FPS games, where there is real tacticas involved. Which is another beef I have with MMO pvp, its all hotbar spamming. MMO PVP is nothing but 1 big joke.

    In the second line you can read "in equal conditions", and the same applies to PVE, but people dont complain about it.

    In equal conditions to the fighters involved (stats provided by lv or gear), pvp is much more harder and complex than PVE.

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member

    If mmo pvp is a joke, only with hotbar spamming, what to say about the pve!!!!   LOL

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

    image
  • zimboy69zimboy69 chicargo, FLPosts: 372Member Uncommon

    full loot pvp  is amazing if your the one  winning the moment your the one losing it feels sucky

     

    and even more so if your always losing (just like me)you might as well just not play

     

    a example was me in planetside 2 i die 12 times for each kill i get   now  i just dont play as its just not fun  spending almost the whole game running to locations getiing  killed the moment i turn up

    and if it had full loot  i wouldnt have played past 5 mins

     

    the biggest problem with full loot  or all games in general is it  rewards  the good or best players with better equipment  when  the players who really need  help are the ones who die all the time

     

    its just like wow and its tread mill of  equipment  and the best get the best weapons

     

    a handicap system would encourage people to play  

    players with a bigger handicap could have braggin rights  bigger reputations than players who  had better equipment

     

    and if i really thought i was a great pvp  then winning with equipment worse than my oponent would give me greater satisfaction than winning knowing that its my  super equipment that  won it for me  and not my skill 

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  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    If mmo pvp is a joke, only with hotbar spamming, what to say about the pve!!!!   LOL

     

     

    Yes I am very well aware that PVE has turned to that aswell in these current MMO's, no arument here, hence I have not bought an MMO in well over 3 years now. And  there is never equal conditions in PVP so thats a redundant argument to try and use, and nothing more than a pipe dream. I use reality for my debates, not what ifs.

    PVP and PVE do not co-exist well in a game, they water each other down, and take away from each other. In PVP players have to be somewhat balanced. In good challeneging PVE there needs to be a strict defined roles. When you have a mix of pve and pvp you have to take away from the strict roles to make the classes viable for PVP. Its like oil and water they dont dont mix well. 

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,753Member Uncommon
    im a PvE person, but i dont fear PvP. I like open world PvP but i strongly dislike both permadeath and Full Loot, specially if i have to pay to play the game and get ganked, full looted and / or perma dead.... i can live with getting ganked since thats the nature of the beast (open world pvp), but all i can say about the other two (permadeath and full loot) is that  my money has a value im not willing to waste with them. I do not enjoy that so i dont play those games. Even for free, i just dont enjoy those two features so i dont support them or any game that has them.

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This discussion has been closed.