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New Player Friendly?

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  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member
    Originally posted by Eladi
    lol not new player friendly you have a ..waht  6 - 7 year weaker character then the first players. and the game is staling for a long time now. any time invested in Eve online is a real waiste at this point. its still a great game for olderplayers but mutch thanks to them the game does not have any real development anymore.  just ballance stuff, add  more stuff mainly that makes older players stronger and  copy / paste of game mechanics in a new shiny looking jacket.

    Can you give a recent example of "stuff that makes the older players stronger"?

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member
    Originally posted by Kiljaedenas
    Originally posted by Eleazaros

    I'll give you an old quote of mine that I actually used in game on about my second week playing...  3 or 4 of us were pulled out of the rookie help channel into a private channel with a couple "recuriters".  They offered each of us half a million or so isk each if we'd join up with their "new" corporation with a POS in lowsec - if we'd just come down to it to sign up.

    I typed this into the channel, everyone lost it laughing -- none of us newbies went down there.

    Think of yourself as a small child released into a park full of pedophiles. If anyone offers you anything that requires you to meet them, don't be surprised at what you actually get from the encounter.

    Welcome to EVE online.  Pick your friends with care.  There are good groups in the game but trust is a tough thing to work with in this world.

    :)  I might have to steal that one...

     

    But he forgot the second half of the quote;

    But if you put in lots of practice and research and you can find a group that you like to play with, then one day you too can be one of the pedophiles!

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member

    EvE is the most new player friendly game imho, because its the only MMO where Vets care about new players AT ALL. Players are the most important resource of all in EvE, even new players.

    If your social you will have no problem at all to find a corp that follows a activity you enjoy and happy to take you. If your unsocial ... yeah it won't be fun but that got nothing to do with being new.

    The difficulty in common activities you can follow as a new player is imho low, the complexity people talk about mostly stems from there being so many activities, not from the individual ones being complex. Also the game is pretty forgiving early on, the kinds of ships and modules you fly ... nothing to loose sleep over if lost, t1 losses are mostly compensated by insurance anyway.

     

    By the time you can properly fly t2(about a month or two) you already should be able to find your way sans the usual facepalm-moments every EvE player goes through. One word of advice is to focus and get the most of your training.

     

    Instead of training for frigates(and weapons) --> destroyers --> cruisers(new weapons and drones) --> BC --> BS(new weapons and drones again).

    Try to train f.e. frigates(weapons) --> assault frigates --> EW Frigates --> ceptors --> T3

     

    Reason being that you get to reuse/profit from skills you already trained again. Frigate skills and weapon skills will help you alot in your enitre progression right till you arrive at the T3 cruiser and those skills you have to train that are only required for part of the progression will still be useful in later shiptypes(EW skills, evasive maneuvering etc), while most of the progression would be completely worthless to you in a cruiser. Besides Assault frigates are good for missions up to and including level 3 and pretty much any npc in any belt you'll likely ever meet even in 0.0. Its a pretty good ship for PvE considering its size and (opportunity)cost even in the hands of a very low skilled pilot. Just hold off on PvP in them until you got some experience in it(pvp, not the ship).

    Nr 1 reason for tears is imho the bigger is better mentality, people loosing low skilled BS in lvl 3 missions they could easily do in a AF or BC. Undocking in your shiny new - never before flown - raven to teach that pirate in a cruiser a lesson etc. Always use the appropiate tool for the job, and be aware that being fast on your feet is better than to be strong in your arms from a survival pov ;).

  • free2playfree2play Toronto, ONPosts: 1,869Member Uncommon

    As long as you feel "noob" stay in starter corp. War Dec is a game breaker for someone with one character and limited SP.

    If you plan to explore the universe, even just the high sec part of it, keep your valuables safe.

    The Auto Pilot? It's isn't there, you didn't see it, it doesn't work.  Unless you are in an empty shuttle, you are asking for trouble.

    Learn, enjoy time well wasted. It's what it's all about. Old bittervets like me have no right to haul you down, ignore us when we are crabby.

  • SentimeSentime Chicago, ILPosts: 272Member
    Originally posted by ashleymorrow
    I am going to give Eve a try because I want something different and the visuals look beautiful. I am told it has a steep learning curve but that they recently made it more "newbie friendly". Is this true? and are there any guilds that help new players? Anything I should be wary of? Thank you for your time.

     

    Right now it's newbie friendly, just don't go into lowsec or nullsec without good friends.

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member

    Personally i think, as a newbie, if you join a corp you should join a corp thats used to be at war. Reason being:

    a) You get used to war, pvp in a supportive enviroment.

    b) Nothing as offputting as seeing your seniors running around like headless chickens and cowering in some station because some random 5 man pirate corp decced them.

     

    I think b) is the reason most newbies are being told to be afraid of wardeccs. At no point in your career is a wardec in itself a problem, it only becomes a problem if nobody tells you wtf is going on, made even worse if nothing is actually going on because everyone is hiding in some station. So something like Eve university(even if at war) or RvB, maybe even some FW corps are a perfectly valid corp for a new player to join.

     

    Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is it a good idea to stay in a NPC corp as a new player(well maybe for a week or two until you got the controls down). It will bore you to tears and make you lonely and miserable. Join a real corp, any corp, and make someone else miserable instead(or be miserable with company). Also don't hesitate to quit a corp if its not how you envisioned it, i have a hard time thinking about a game where corps/guilds can be more different than in EvE. There is literally anything from communist pirate corps, to capitalist moralist corps and anything inbetween in EvE. And thats not even getting into differences due to RP, corp size, leadership(dictatorship, democracy etc), HQ location or moral orientation(some corps for example don't like you shooting neutrals or blues, lots of weird people in eve).

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Here I go.. giving Eve another try with the 14 day freebie... Will I last that long or delete..  Years ago when I first tried it, it was not newbie friendly at all.. game or community..  We'll see if times have changed..
  • SlechtvalkSlechtvalk ElsdorfPosts: 33Member

    i dont really think the problems is not knowing how that game works. you will find out through reading.

     

    The problem i have with eve is, the playerbase.

     

    in 2006 you could fly a cargo ship 30 jumps through lowsec. the chance of not getting potted was high, because pks searched for other players, and not for easy kills.

    maybe du to the reputation the corp i have been part of, maybe good luck.

     

    my last experiences were, entering 0.3 three times with a transport or something like that and getting potted by 5 players.

    i remember whole weeks, where we got wardecked, one week by corp a, if we pay 2.000.000.000 they wont harm us again, and 24 hours after the first week of wardeck, we got wardecked by corp b. not beeing able to leave station for 6 weeks.

     

    i friend was on tour with his rattlesnake, and some nice stuff inside and got bombed in 1.0....

     

    eve has become too much griefing. i think they can patch 1.0 out, to be honest, there is no safezone in eve.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,676Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Here I go.. giving Eve another try with the 14 day freebie... Will I last that long or delete..  Years ago when I first tried it, it was not newbie friendly at all.. game or community..  We'll see if times have changed..

    Crimewatch and the new UI features go a long way toward making a lot more information - needed information - readily available.

     

    More info:

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • KroxMalonKroxMalon swindonPosts: 409Member
    follow the tutorial very closley and good luck :)
  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by Slechtvalk

    i dont really think the problems is not knowing how that game works. you will find out through reading.

     

    The problem i have with eve is, the playerbase.

     

    in 2006 you could fly a cargo ship 30 jumps through lowsec. the chance of not getting potted was high, because pks searched for other players, and not for easy kills.

    maybe du to the reputation the corp i have been part of, maybe good luck.

     

    my last experiences were, entering 0.3 three times with a transport or something like that and getting potted by 5 players.

    i remember whole weeks, where we got wardecked, one week by corp a, if we pay 2.000.000.000 they wont harm us again, and 24 hours after the first week of wardeck, we got wardecked by corp b. not beeing able to leave station for 6 weeks.

     

    i friend was on tour with his rattlesnake, and some nice stuff inside and got bombed in 1.0....

     

    eve has become too much griefing. i think they can patch 1.0 out, to be honest, there is no safezone in eve.

    Sorry but I call BS on that. I distinctly remember gate camps even way back in 2004 in 1.0 security space central hubseven, ganking players and concord(!!) ships alike. Yeah low sec was a bit more empty if you avoided those bordering on high sec, but then again population was like 1/3-1/10 of what we have today. 

    Players have not changed, and you have more protection these days then you had back then. How about not suiciding your hauler into a low sec gate camp, which you can see on the map btw, and use a jumpfreighter instead. If you can't afford a JF, you rent the services of one.

    Besides why would you fly a RS(which is worth about 3 BS)  in war times is beyond me, that's like cutting yourself up before going swimming with sharks and then complaining about how vicious they are ...

    The way i see it, if you can't take care of your stuff its better to take it away and sell it to someone who does. How is that griefing? I'm not doing it to grief you, I'm merely conducting my business which is the redistribution of wealth.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Slechtvalk

    i dont really think the problems is not knowing how that game works. you will find out through reading.

     

    The problem i have with eve is, the playerbase.

     

    in 2006 you could fly a cargo ship 30 jumps through lowsec. the chance of not getting potted was high, because pks searched for other players, and not for easy kills.

    maybe du to the reputation the corp i have been part of, maybe good luck.

     

    my last experiences were, entering 0.3 three times with a transport or something like that and getting potted by 5 players.

    i remember whole weeks, where we got wardecked, one week by corp a, if we pay 2.000.000.000 they wont harm us again, and 24 hours after the first week of wardeck, we got wardecked by corp b. not beeing able to leave station for 6 weeks.

     

    i friend was on tour with his rattlesnake, and some nice stuff inside and got bombed in 1.0....

     

    eve has become too much griefing. i think they can patch 1.0 out, to be honest, there is no safezone in eve.

     I apologizre, this is rubish.  Pirates didn't shoot haulers in '06 because they didn't want "easy" targets, they simply weren't there.  There wasn't nearly as many people in low sec in '06.  There's far more reason, and value, to actually go to low sec today. 

    Low sec is were pirates live.  If you're flying around in a hauler, especially alone, you should be the most viable target.  Why wouldn't a pirate hijack a cargo ship, that's just silly to think that beacause it's a game and you can't shoot back that they shouldn't shoot you.  Of course they should, well before they shoot anything else. 

    Goodness.  People love to use the "eve is real" analogies when they talk about safety in high sec.  "Known criminals don't just walk down the street!" is a favorite mantra of the high sec carebear. 

    Well I got one of my own for you.  Somali pirates don't highjack navy ships genius. 

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member

    Personally i think that one of the things that confuses new players in EvE is that common sense actually applies. That might sound strange, but many  MMOs teach players some artificial rulesets that have less bearing on logic or common sense than they do on game balance. Players are simply not used to actually think about what they do in terms of sensibility.

    In EvE however, common sense applies. And flying valueable defenseless vessels into areas where you KNOW that there is no mobile policeforce/army present to acutally enforce laws on your behalf ... is just a bad idea. The same as visibly transporting extremely valuable unsecured goods through an area where there IS a police presence, since obviously they won't act until after you got mugged: "Hey we apprehended the guy that STABBED YOU INTO THE FACE to get your camera, you feel better now"?

     

    Aslong as you keep in mind that:

    a) Law enforcement is continually pissed at you for being a pod pilot, which basicly makes you an mixture of a celebrity, vigilante and warlord(and thats just the nice ones). They want to stay as far out of the buisness of pod pilots as they can get away with.

    b) Your in space, not on the parkdeck of your local walmart store. Its never safe because the empires have a very hard time actually enforcing their laws due to the vastness of ... well duh space(which is why we have hostile npc factions in all but the highest sec space).

     

    you basicly will be okay. Just don't expect people to be nice. People are not nice in RL, if those same people start playing a game why would they suddenly become nice?

  • n3v3rriv3rn3v3rriv3r NowherePosts: 349Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Eleazaros

    I'll give you an old quote of mine that I actually used in game on about my second week playing...  3 or 4 of us were pulled out of the rookie help channel into a private channel with a couple "recuriters".  They offered each of us half a million or so isk each if we'd join up with their "new" corporation with a POS in lowsec - if we'd just come down to it to sign up.

    I typed this into the channel, everyone lost it laughing -- none of us newbies went down there.

    Think of yourself as a small child released into a park full of pedophiles. If anyone offers you anything that requires you to meet them, don't be surprised at what you actually get from the encounter.

    Welcome to EVE online.  Pick your friends with care.  There are good groups in the game but trust is a tough thing to work with in this world.

    Lol, so true. No it is not new player friendly. It is a good game but.... you have to deal with it ... you will be a prey.

    Dynamic, sometimes exciting, other times dull - it is just like how you make it.

    You see, it is like in a real capitalistic world with the only difference: in Eve you can remake yourself again and again. If you are  a loser in real world maybe you will succeed in Eve - they offer you a playground where the same mind games are played as in real life but nobody is physically hurt.

     

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by n3v3rriv3r
    Originally posted by Eleazaros

    I'll give you an old quote of mine that I actually used in game on about my second week playing...  3 or 4 of us were pulled out of the rookie help channel into a private channel with a couple "recuriters".  They offered each of us half a million or so isk each if we'd join up with their "new" corporation with a POS in lowsec - if we'd just come down to it to sign up.

    I typed this into the channel, everyone lost it laughing -- none of us newbies went down there.

    Think of yourself as a small child released into a park full of pedophiles. If anyone offers you anything that requires you to meet them, don't be surprised at what you actually get from the encounter.

    Welcome to EVE online.  Pick your friends with care.  There are good groups in the game but trust is a tough thing to work with in this world.

    Lol, so true. No it is not new player friendly. It is a good game but.... you have to deal with it ... you will be a prey.

    Dynamic, sometimes exciting, other times dull - it is just like how you make it.

    You see, it is like in a real capitalistic world with the only difference: in Eve you can remake yourself again and again. If you are  a loser in real world maybe you will succeed in Eve - they offer you a playground where the same mind games are played as in real life but nobody is physically hurt.

     

    Until you go to fanfest in iceland and try some of the local food specialities that is. 

  • TolmosTolmos North, FLPosts: 135Member Common
    If the game were any kind of new player friendly, it would have a lot larger pop than it does. CCP struggles constantly to try to make it better, but many of the long term players fight them tooth and nail, desperately afraid they will lose their game given superiority over the "lesser" players. Not all though- some of us try desperately to convince CCP to make it easier and more appealing to new players, even at the cost of the bonuses and benefits that we older players get. Because at the end of the day- new players = more people to fight. No new players means we will slowly dwindle in population until there is no one left to kill :(

    http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
    Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  • ObiClownobiObiClownobi CoruscantPosts: 186Member

    I like EvE because its not new player friendly, in WoW/SWTOR/Rift/insert other game, you are a success from the 1st second when you save the village by killing the wolves roaming the field nearby.

    In EvE you are a nobody in a shitty ship with no power, no contacts in a hostile environment, what happens after that is entirely up to you and how you react to events and learn from them, I find it refreshing, but it is not nice, not safe and you have to make yourself into the hero/villain by your own actions and competing against others.

    image
    "It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,870Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Tolmos

    If the game were any kind of new player friendly, it would have a lot larger pop than it does.

    Can you somehow back up this claim?

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member
    Originally posted by Tolmos
    If the game were any kind of new player friendly, it would have a lot larger pop than it does. CCP struggles constantly to try to make it better, but many of the long term players fight them tooth and nail, desperately afraid they will lose their game given superiority over the "lesser" players. Not all though- some of us try desperately to convince CCP to make it easier and more appealing to new players, even at the cost of the bonuses and benefits that we older players get. Because at the end of the day- new players = more people to fight. No new players means we will slowly dwindle in population until there is no one left to kill :(

     

    Hi there, it looks like you're winning pretty hard against that strawman.

    There are basically no players who are against making things better for new players. There are however plenty of old players who are more than willing to try and get CCP to make horrifyingly game-breaking changes to EVE that would just happen to be to their enormous benefit, and then they try and pretend that "it's for the new players".

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • TolmosTolmos North, FLPosts: 135Member Common
    Originally posted by Malcanis
    Originally posted by Tolmos
    If the game were any kind of new player friendly, it would have a lot larger pop than it does. CCP struggles constantly to try to make it better, but many of the long term players fight them tooth and nail, desperately afraid they will lose their game given superiority over the "lesser" players. Not all though- some of us try desperately to convince CCP to make it easier and more appealing to new players, even at the cost of the bonuses and benefits that we older players get. Because at the end of the day- new players = more people to fight. No new players means we will slowly dwindle in population until there is no one left to kill :(

     

    Hi there, it looks like you're winning pretty hard against that strawman.

    There are basically no players who are against making things better for new players. There are however plenty of old players who are more than willing to try and get CCP to make horrifyingly game-breaking changes to EVE that would just happen to be to their enormous benefit, and then they try and pretend that "it's for the new players".

    Removal of learning skills was one of the biggest boons to new players. Instead of arbitrarily wasting months training up 5s in the basic and advanced learning skills like the rest of us had to do, they could jump right into bettering their character.  Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! WE HAD TO DO IT THEY SHOULD, TOO!"

    Improvements to highsec can flipping mechanics would be a massive boon to new players. The only people who fall for it are new players (even a completely smashed, drunk off his ass veteran player wouldn't come close to falling for that), and what they lose often costs them everything they've made since they started playing (which isn't much, but to them is a lot). Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! ARE YOU TRYING TO TURN THIS INTO WOW?! LETS JUST HAVE IT ASK IF ITS OK FOR ME TO KILL THEM WHILE WE'RE AT IT!"

    The game has been out for how long now? There are people with over 100,000,000 SP. The majority of posts on character bazaar are for 30mil+. However, new players are only given 2x boost to 1.6 million SP. 6 years ago this was great. But now? It would be a massive boon to new players to have boosted to 10mil. It would assist them in preparing for small ship combat, but still limit large ship combat to older players. Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! WHY DON'T YOU JUST HAND OUT 100,000,000 SP CHARS TO EVERYONE WHO ROLLS A NEW TOON. GIVE THEM A TITAN WHILE YOU ARE AT IT!"

    Suicide ganking was a carebear vets way of pretending like he could PvP, by controlling his losses completely and still killing targets that can't fight back. CCP began making this harder, forcing suiciders to actually incur sizeable losses. Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! LETS JUST MAKE ALL PVP CONSENSUAL ACROSS THE WHOLE GAME WHILE WE'RE AT IT!"

    Those are just a few of the examples. There are only a small handful of vet players that want to see the game become more friendly for new players, while still keeping its non-consensual PvP elements in low sec and nullsec (though mostly low, since nullsec is by and large more safe than highsec ever will be due to its size, and despite how much nullbears QQ to the opposite). It's being fought tooth and nail, but CCP seems to be on our side. It's just taking time.

    http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
    Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by Tolmos
    Originally posted by Malcanis
    Originally posted by Tolmos
    If the game were any kind of new player friendly, it would have a lot larger pop than it does. CCP struggles constantly to try to make it better, but many of the long term players fight them tooth and nail, desperately afraid they will lose their game given superiority over the "lesser" players. Not all though- some of us try desperately to convince CCP to make it easier and more appealing to new players, even at the cost of the bonuses and benefits that we older players get. Because at the end of the day- new players = more people to fight. No new players means we will slowly dwindle in population until there is no one left to kill :(

     

    Hi there, it looks like you're winning pretty hard against that strawman.

    There are basically no players who are against making things better for new players. There are however plenty of old players who are more than willing to try and get CCP to make horrifyingly game-breaking changes to EVE that would just happen to be to their enormous benefit, and then they try and pretend that "it's for the new players".

    Removal of learning skills was one of the biggest boons to new players. Instead of arbitrarily wasting months training up 5s in the basic and advanced learning skills like the rest of us had to do, they could jump right into bettering their character.  Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! WE HAD TO DO IT THEY SHOULD, TOO!"

    I would be interested how you evaluated what the majority of vets thought about this, most people i talked to with back then where either in favor of it or didn't care. A vocal minority making an ass out of themselves on forums does not make a majority.

    Improvements to highsec can flipping mechanics would be a massive boon to new players. The only people who fall for it are new players (even a completely smashed, drunk off his ass veteran player wouldn't come close to falling for that), and what they lose often costs them everything they've made since they started playing (which isn't much, but to them is a lot). Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! ARE YOU TRYING TO TURN THIS INTO WOW?! LETS JUST HAVE IT ASK IF ITS OK FOR ME TO KILL THEM WHILE WE'RE AT IT!"

    Yeah lets paint everything black and white. Thing is its just not as simple as doing "Improvements to highsec canflipping", what people wanted changed is how looting and stealing works, if you mess with that it will spill over into a countless numbers of situations besides canflipping. If you have a proposal that will actually only affect canflipping im all ears. Lets also keep in mind that CCP wants people to encourage to group up with other players, which makes mining considerably safer.

    The game has been out for how long now? There are people with over 100,000,000 SP. The majority of posts on character bazaar are for 30mil+. However, new players are only given 2x boost to 1.6 million SP. 6 years ago this was great. But now? It would be a massive boon to new players to have boosted to 10mil. It would assist them in preparing for small ship combat, but still limit large ship combat to older players. Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! WHY DON'T YOU JUST HAND OUT 100,000,000 SP CHARS TO EVERYONE WHO ROLLS A NEW TOON. GIVE THEM A TITAN WHILE YOU ARE AT IT!"

    New players would neither be able to afford, nor being able to handle advanced ships and their combat/fitting. Going through progresssion while slowly getting stronger is meant to blunt the already steep learning curve that eve has. It means that the stupid mistakes every new player does in his first days of playtime happen in cheap affordable ships that can be replaced by doing a couple lvl 1 or 2 missions. If your a fast learner, and somehow have so much ISK that you can afford the advanced ships, nothing is stopping you from buying a char that has the skills you want. If you can't afford such a char, you couldn't afford T3s and caps either.

    Suicide ganking was a carebear vets way of pretending like he could PvP, by controlling his losses completely and still killing targets that can't fight back. CCP began making this harder, forcing suiciders to actually incur sizeable losses. Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! LETS JUST MAKE ALL PVP CONSENSUAL ACROSS THE WHOLE GAME WHILE WE'RE AT IT!"

    Again, i was in 0.0 at the time this change went live, pretty much NOBODY in my alliance, or any alliance we where affilitated with(several thousand people) and went on roams together cared even one tiny little bit. The only people who cared was again a tiny vocal minority of people who actually did suicide ganking in highsec, and i assure you the vast majority of EvE vets simply has better stuff to do(and complain about) than that.

    Those are just a few of the examples. There are only a small handful of vet players that want to see the game become more friendly for new players, while still keeping its non-consensual PvP elements in low sec and nullsec (though mostly low, since nullsec is by and large more safe than highsec ever will be due to its size, and despite how much nullbears QQ to the opposite). It's being fought tooth and nail, but CCP seems to be on our side. It's just taking time.

    BS, theres just a handful of of angry idiots that flood every topic about things like that and blow it out of proportion. Just look at the threads, there is a handfull of (griefer)corps and the same 10-20 people bringing the same stupid arguments again and again. If you look at the ACTUAL representatives of the players in eve, the CSM you will find that 90% of them are in favour of these changes and infact proposed many of them. Even the leaders of the big sov holding 0.0 alliances are usually in favor of these changes if they don't mess up other areas of the games.

    Most Vets are aware that to survive EvE needs new blood, and won't fight sensible changes like the new crimewatch or the insurance payout suicide ganking changes in the past. If EvE vets are so hostile to new players why do so many work as recruiters and teachers in corps dedicated to new players? And why does a massive shitstorm break lose everytime someone wardecs Eve university, a entire corp/alliance network dedicated to new players?

    In reality you will have a hard time finding any MMO where a new player looking for help and tutoring will have an easier time than in EvE. There are actually dedicated players/corps that do nothing besides helping tutoring players and even smallish corps usually have a dedicated mentor that helps new corpmembers with fittings etc and has the roles to hand out free ships and modules to go with his advice.

  • TolmosTolmos North, FLPosts: 135Member Common
    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Yeah lets paint everything black and white. Thing is its just not as simple as doing "Improvements to highsec canflipping", what people wanted changed is how looting and stealing works, if you mess with that it will spill over into a countless numbers of situations besides canflipping. If you have a proposal that will actually only affect canflipping im all ears. Lets also keep in mind that CCP wants people to encourage to group up with other players, which makes mining considerably safer.

    Well, if I had to take a wild swing at what I would suggest, then I'd suggest making ALL player dropped cans anchored as a default option, which can be turned off in the UI, so that they can't be scooped and redropped by another player. This would vastly help new players.

    New players would neither be able to afford, nor being able to handle advanced ships and their combat/fitting. Going through progresssion while slowly getting stronger is meant to blunt the already steep learning curve that eve has. It means that the stupid mistakes every new player does in his first days of playtime happen in cheap affordable ships that can be replaced by doing a couple lvl 1 or 2 missions. If your a fast learner, and somehow have so much ISK that you can afford the advanced ships, nothing is stopping you from buying a char that has the skills you want. If you can't afford such a char, you couldn't afford T3s and caps either.

    First off, you couldn't get into T3s on 10 mil SP if you tried, and certainly not caps. Reread what I wrote- the purpose of extending the double SP to 10 mil is to make them better at small ship combat. If they choose to use their 10 mil SP trying to work towards battleships, they would have chosen to do so without the double SP regardless. The only difference is they wouldn't have to wait as long. I can honestly see NO viable argument as to why it being expanded to 10 mil would be a bad thing, except that it gives new players more of an advantage than they currently have in PvP and thus makes them a less easy killmail for higher SP targets.

    Again, i was in 0.0 at the time this change went live, pretty much NOBODY in my alliance, or any alliance we where affilitated with(several thousand people) and went on roams together cared even one tiny little bit. The only people who cared was again a tiny vocal minority of people who actually did suicide ganking in highsec, and i assure you the vast majority of EvE vets simply has better stuff to do(and complain about) than that.

    BS, theres just a handful of of angry idiots that flood every topic about things like that and blow it out of proportion. Just look at the threads, there is a handfull of (griefer)corps and the same 10-20 people bringing the same stupid arguments again and again. If you look at the ACTUAL representatives of the players in eve, the CSM you will find that 90% of them are in favour of these changes and infact proposed many of them. Even the leaders of the big sov holding 0.0 alliances are usually in favor of these changes if they don't mess up other areas of the games.

    Fair enough. All I can go on are forums and locals, and based on the reactions from players in those two locations (both these forums and EVE Online official forums), it was not welcomed particularly warmly among non-new players.

    As for looking at the CSM- it became a joke after Mittani joined. He proved that large alliances have the manpower, if nothing else through alts alone, to vote whoever they want in. I don't want to change the topic of this discussion from being about new players to being about the CSM, so I'll stop there. I'll just say that I don't entirely trust that the CSM properly represents the majority of the playerbase, regardless of what sec they are, in a non-biased way.

    Most Vets are aware that to survive EvE needs new blood, and won't fight sensible changes like the new crimewatch or the insurance payout suicide ganking changes in the past. If EvE vets are so hostile to new players why do so many work as recruiters and teachers in corps dedicated to new players? And why does a massive shitstorm break lose everytime someone wardecs Eve university, a entire corp/alliance network dedicated to new players?

    In reality you will have a hard time finding any MMO where a new player looking for help and tutoring will have an easier time than in EvE. There are actually dedicated players/corps that do nothing besides helping tutoring players and even smallish corps usually have a dedicated mentor that helps new corpmembers with fittings etc and has the roles to hand out free ships and modules to go with his advice.

    The number of players I have seen actually helping, in game, has always been dwarfed by the number of players telling people to "Go back to WoW" or otherwise quit the game, try to scam the new players right off the bat, can flip on them, suicide them, etc. This is all fine and good for someone like me, with 50mil+ SP and the financial backing that it won't make a lick of difference if I fall for their crap or not... but for a brand new player? It grows tiresome seeing people say "This game sucks. It's nothing but vets ganking new players" and leave.

    Maybe I'm paranoid about this sort of thing because of my gaming past- I come from Shadowbane, which died for this exact reason. I LOVED that game, but the new player experience was downright miserable there. Then I moved to Darkfall which was in the same boat. We had an entire guild devoted to helping out new players, right there on each newb zone. But for every 1 of us willing to help them, there were 10 ganking them and taking their crap every 5 minutes.

    Non-consensual PvP is fun if you can get a foothold in the game and survive the initial learning period, but if your first few weeks in the game is nothing but losing EVERYTHING you have worked for over and over and over again, then it's kind of hard to say "Wow, this is so much fun! I love being farmed my vet players! This is the BEST!". 

    http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
    Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,676Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tolmos

    Those are just a few of the examples. There are only a small handful of vet players that want to see the game become more friendly for new players...

    You infer that the examples you present were from some large group and then make a statement of fact that the other group is small. Do you not see that you have no data to actually support either stance?

    Do you consider EVE University, PVP Unleased and the RvB group as a large or small group of players? Are you suggesting that the only players who are in favor of a more friendly game for new players are those that have gone to the point of actively aiding new players in large organized groups, and that they are not just a subset of a larger group that feels the same way? I ask, because that doesn't seem to fit any social behavior model known to man.

     

    "The number of players I have seen actually helping, in game, has always been dwarfed by the number of players telling people to "Go back to WoW" or otherwise quit the game, try to scam the new players right off the bat, can flip on them, suicide them, etc."

     

    "Maybe I'm paranoid about this sort of thing..."

    Maybe there's one too many words in that part of the sentence. ;)

     

    "...because of my gaming past- I come from Shadowbane, which died for this exact reason."

    Shadowbane died for a lot of reasons, none of which "new players were getting killed and being told to go back to WOW."

     

    "Then I moved to Darkfall which was in the same boat. We had an entire guild devoted to helping out new players, right there on each newb zone. But for every 1 of us willing to help them, there were 10 ganking them and taking their crap every 5 minutes."

    Darkfall is a PVP game with barely any content outside of that to speak of. It is so far removed from EVE, that comparison between the two is a farce.

     

    "Non-consensual PvP is fun if you can get a foothold in the game and survive the initial learning period, but if your first few weeks in the game is nothing but losing EVERYTHING you have worked for over and over and over again..."

    At this point, I'm very curious what you are doing in game that you are seeing this with any degree of regularity. What system or channel are you seeing new players regularly being told to go back to WOW or being suicide ganked repeatedly?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TolmosTolmos North, FLPosts: 135Member Common
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Do you consider EVE University, PVP Unleased and the RvB group as a large or small group of players? Are you suggesting that the only players who are in favor of a more friendly game for new players are those that have gone to the point of actively aiding new players in large organized groups, and that they are not just a subset of a larger group that feels the same way? I ask, because that doesn't seem to fit any social behavior model known to man.

    Don't spend a lot of time on the internet do you? "doesn't seem to fit any social behavior model known to man" is a bit of stretch when it is seen online 24/7. Go to any internet forum, any full PvP game, and you will constantly see that. ESPECIALLY in EVE, where every suggestion to help new players on any forum is shot down within minutes of people saying "HTFU".

     

    "The number of players I have seen actually helping, in game, has always been dwarfed by the number of players telling people to "Go back to WoW" or otherwise quit the game, try to scam the new players right off the bat, can flip on them, suicide them, etc."

     

    "Maybe I'm paranoid about this sort of thing..."

    Maybe there's one too many words in that part of the sentence. ;)

    ZING! Look at you, Mr. Clever e-badass!

    "...because of my gaming past- I come from Shadowbane, which died for this exact reason."

    Shadowbane died for a lot of reasons, none of which "new players were getting killed and being told to go back to WOW."

     Actually, that was exactly the reason. Players had an almost impossible time leveling because their groups would get rolled within minutes of being set up. That was all well and good for those of us who would r6s (and eventually r7s) to protect our groups, but for the newbs? Not so much.

    "Then I moved to Darkfall which was in the same boat. We had an entire guild devoted to helping out new players, right there on each newb zone. But for every 1 of us willing to help them, there were 10 ganking them and taking their crap every 5 minutes."

    Darkfall is a PVP game with barely any content outside of that to speak of. It is so far removed from EVE, that comparison between the two is a farce.

     Oh really? Darkfall isn't a sandbox PvP game with the ability to claim to sovereignty over zones, lay siege to those zones, and contains a fully functional political system for use within the guilds that own those zones? Huh, I must be thinking of a different game then.

    "Non-consensual PvP is fun if you can get a foothold in the game and survive the initial learning period, but if your first few weeks in the game is nothing but losing EVERYTHING you have worked for over and over and over again..."

    At this point, I'm very curious what you are doing in game that you are seeing this with any degree of regularity. What system or channel are you seeing new players regularly being told to go back to WOW or being suicide ganked repeatedly?

    Pop on over to... I dunno, lets say Amarr and its neighboring 1.0 security areas. Just hang around there for a while. Maybe pop over to the stations there and take note of the 50+ cans waiting to be flipped. Watch local and see the "how did I die?!" "cause you suck at this game. Go back to WoW!" messages flow across the screen. Sit back and enjoy the newbie experience!

     

    http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
    Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by Tolmos
    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Yeah lets paint everything black and white. Thing is its just not as simple as doing "Improvements to highsec canflipping", what people wanted changed is how looting and stealing works, if you mess with that it will spill over into a countless numbers of situations besides canflipping. If you have a proposal that will actually only affect canflipping im all ears. Lets also keep in mind that CCP wants people to encourage to group up with other players, which makes mining considerably safer.

    Well, if I had to take a wild swing at what I would suggest, then I'd suggest making ALL player dropped cans anchored as a default option, which can be turned off in the UI, so that they can't be scooped and redropped by another player. This would vastly help new players.

    Yeah thats a brilliant plan, any industrial thats about to be popped is just going to jettison his cargo, same for freighters wanting to fuel a pos or wartargets. Thats exactly the kind of thing i was talking about, you don't even see how this would spill over into other areas. The jettison feature was meant to get rid of junk, its the equivalent to destroying items in other games. You where never supposed to use it for mining and it has been actively discouraged by CCP since 2004. You and your corp are already getting full killrights for someone scooping your loot, what more do you want? A hardlock preventing taking items that don't belong to you? A concord fleet showing up?

    New players would neither be able to afford, nor being able to handle advanced ships and their combat/fitting. Going through progresssion while slowly getting stronger is meant to blunt the already steep learning curve that eve has. It means that the stupid mistakes every new player does in his first days of playtime happen in cheap affordable ships that can be replaced by doing a couple lvl 1 or 2 missions. If your a fast learner, and somehow have so much ISK that you can afford the advanced ships, nothing is stopping you from buying a char that has the skills you want. If you can't afford such a char, you couldn't afford T3s and caps either.

    First off, you couldn't get into T3s on 10 mil SP if you tried, and certainly not caps. Reread what I wrote- the purpose of extending the double SP to 10 mil is to make them better at small ship combat. If they choose to use their 10 mil SP trying to work towards battleships, they would have chosen to do so without the double SP regardless. The only difference is they wouldn't have to wait as long. I can honestly see NO viable argument as to why it being expanded to 10 mil would be a bad thing, except that it gives new players more of an advantage than they currently have in PvP and thus makes them a less easy killmail for higher SP targets.

    Actually you can. About 1 Mil SP for cruiser 5, another 1.5 mil for the support skills(engi, elec, missile op, shield op, nav) you want at 5 anyway since they benefit any ship, maybe half a mil again in missiles, shields and you can fly a very nice tengu doing good damage(withing 20% of a 100mil SP Vet) with sufficent tank to fly level 4 missions requirering 3-4 mil SP tops. Subsystems and support skills at 3-4 are plenty for level 4.

    To give you a bone though, yeah i wouldn't see it as the end of the world either to extend the double SP to 10 mil either. But thats just another arbitrary number, why not 20, or 30 mil SP? In 90% of the cases ISK is going to be the limiting factor anyway.

    Again, i was in 0.0 at the time this change went live, pretty much NOBODY in my alliance, or any alliance we where affilitated with(several thousand people) and went on roams together cared even one tiny little bit. The only people who cared was again a tiny vocal minority of people who actually did suicide ganking in highsec, and i assure you the vast majority of EvE vets simply has better stuff to do(and complain about) than that.

    BS, theres just a handful of of angry idiots that flood every topic about things like that and blow it out of proportion. Just look at the threads, there is a handfull of (griefer)corps and the same 10-20 people bringing the same stupid arguments again and again. If you look at the ACTUAL representatives of the players in eve, the CSM you will find that 90% of them are in favour of these changes and infact proposed many of them. Even the leaders of the big sov holding 0.0 alliances are usually in favor of these changes if they don't mess up other areas of the games.

    Fair enough. All I can go on are forums and locals, and based on the reactions from players in those two locations (both these forums and EVE Online official forums), it was not welcomed particularly warmly among non-new players.

    Bitter Vets lurk on forums, beware.

    As for looking at the CSM- it became a joke after Mittani joined. He proved that large alliances have the manpower, if nothing else through alts alone, to vote whoever they want in. I don't want to change the topic of this discussion from being about new players to being about the CSM, so I'll stop there. I'll just say that I don't entirely trust that the CSM properly represents the majority of the playerbase, regardless of what sec they are, in a non-biased way.

    Yeah well shit, if that isn't the way democracy works ... Goons got mittani in because they DO represent a fairly decent size of the playerbase. That being said the mittani is actually a fairly sensible guy with some sound thinking going on, and i say that as someone who has been red to goons since they existed. Ingame politics are one thing, doesn't mean someone is a duchebag in real life. CSM is about the interaction of players with devs, not null sec politics.

    Most Vets are aware that to survive EvE needs new blood, and won't fight sensible changes like the new crimewatch or the insurance payout suicide ganking changes in the past. If EvE vets are so hostile to new players why do so many work as recruiters and teachers in corps dedicated to new players? And why does a massive shitstorm break lose everytime someone wardecs Eve university, a entire corp/alliance network dedicated to new players?

    In reality you will have a hard time finding any MMO where a new player looking for help and tutoring will have an easier time than in EvE. There are actually dedicated players/corps that do nothing besides helping tutoring players and even smallish corps usually have a dedicated mentor that helps new corpmembers with fittings etc and has the roles to hand out free ships and modules to go with his advice.

    The number of players I have seen actually helping, in game, has always been dwarfed by the number of players telling people to "Go back to WoW" or otherwise quit the game, try to scam the new players right off the bat, can flip on them, suicide them, etc. This is all fine and good for someone like me, with 50mil+ SP and the financial backing that it won't make a lick of difference if I fall for their crap or not... but for a brand new player? It grows tiresome seeing people say "This game sucks. It's nothing but vets ganking new players" and leave.

    More or less true, but this isn't targeting new players, its targeting everyone. New players get scammed by selling them a frig instead of a cruiser, vets get scammed by selling them a raven instead of a CNR. I honestly don't see the difference. Infact the preferable target of scams are older players because they can be scammed for billions. And the "go back to wow" comment gets thrown at anyone because its just meant as a insult, your game age or SP have nothing to do with it.

    Maybe I'm paranoid about this sort of thing because of my gaming past- I come from Shadowbane, which died for this exact reason. I LOVED that game, but the new player experience was downright miserable there. Then I moved to Darkfall which was in the same boat. We had an entire guild devoted to helping out new players, right there on each newb zone. But for every 1 of us willing to help them, there were 10 ganking them and taking their crap every 5 minutes.

    Different game, different problem. Newbies don't get ganked right left and center in the newbie zones, infact its actually pretty rare and is one of the few things that will actually get CCP onto your ass in short time(its considered griefing to gank newbies in the starting systems). If i look at the help channel or local in those systems i see normal human interaction, some nice ones, some mean ones and the usual share of idiots. You'll find the same anyplace in RL where people get together. 

    Non-consensual PvP is fun if you can get a foothold in the game and survive the initial learning period, but if your first few weeks in the game is nothing but losing EVERYTHING you have worked for over and over and over again, then it's kind of hard to say "Wow, this is so much fun! I love being farmed my vet players! This is the BEST!".

    PvP in highsec is consensual or suicide, you can't even wardec new player corps since they are a NPC corp. Newbies can be tricked into making themselves vulnurable though, which CCP tries to adress through the new crimewatch and safety system.

    Also how do they loose everything when they don't have anything? Anyway the game is designed to be very forgiving at that state, a frig costs like 300k and you get millions worth in the tutorial missions alone, with insurance payout you would need to loose probably dozens of frigs daily to loose everything. Not to mention it takes next to no work to actually get back into gear considering how cheap t1 frigs and their gear are.

    Not to mention that if you took the unanimous universial advice that almost every EvE Vet gives new players, which is to get your ass into a player corp dedicated to new players, you will have protection and people to help you. And if all of that is not enough join a communist corp(i was in a communist pirate corp once, twas nice) where everything is shared corpstuff anyway.

    Edit: Also i think your doing a disservice to all the new players who do great in Eve, don't fall to scams and learn from their mistakes. Better to be canflipped as a newbie and loose a t1 frig while learning the mechanics, than getting taught them the hard way once your in your cap or faction BS.

    The first ship i lost was a laser fitted Thorax(i had zero drone skills) that had a simultanious shield and armor tank(with a hullrepper thrown in for added measure), and back then it really was everything i owned. Not to mention a t1 cruiser was a weeks worth of ISK back then. Yeah the pirates in Old man star where scary back then, then again i learned alot from that mistake.

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