Originally posted by ShakyMo Themepark it had a leveling game, then it had an endgame.
It's just its endgame was very different to most themeparks.
A themepark implies two things
a) that the experience is on rails
b) that it's safe and all well explained
These were not true of DAoC. Classes were totally open ended. There were no guided leveling paths. There was a death penalty.
There were very few quests, too.
That's not what themepark means. That's just how its evolved, but it isn't what defines it. It has to do with the linearity of progression, more than anything else. It's not about whether the world is on rails, but whether character development is on rails. Everyone progresses in the same direction, towards some sort of level or skill cap. With or without an endgame.
In a sandbox, you have choices that can go in totally different diverse and opposing directions. You can skip combat entirely, to become a master craftsman, or a merchant, or a fisherman, or whatever else fits the game lore. Its not like those other things are just tacked onto a combat progression system, the way they are in all themeparks.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
To me, "Open World" is a Persistent World & Seamless World.
But all MMO have Persistent World. But many Themepark MMO have Seamless worlds. Even WoW has that.
Skyrim is called a Sandbox, but why? The world is just as open and seamless as WoW is. Where the sandbox come from?
Open world = zoneless world, doesnt necessarily mean seamless. Even though WoW was seemless it still had specific zones situated for a particular level.
DAoC IMO was a sandbox because for me the 2 main criteria for determining if an MMO is sandbox or not is 1. linear progression i.e. being "breadcrumbed" along a specific path doesnt matter if there are multiple paths or not. And 2. focus is on things to do at level cap or more commonly referred to as "end game".
At least at launch and the first expansion DAoC was VERY much bread crumbed, and quest hubbed. Not to the extent maybe of WoW and such, not enough to level solely off quests, but...
-There was a central road, further you went down the road the higher the mobs level.
-There were map regions, no overt loading, but when the sky and ingame color schemes would change as you took a step across the boundary it was clearly a different area.
-Each map region had a cluster of quest givers. The guards standing at a bridge, a hunters camp, a small village. Just there were no '!' over their heads.
-Many of the quests had defind levels and wouldn't unlock until the character leveled. I remember a L20 quest giver sending me out into the contested battlefields. Which when the game was fresh was quite doable, later though it was instant death by Headshot if you lacked stealth or an army.
So to me at least, DAoC was fun, great PvP, good memories, but by NO means a Sandbox, at least through the launch of Atlantis when I left.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Themepark it had a leveling game, then it had an endgame.
It's just its endgame was very different to most themeparks.
A themepark implies two things
a) that the experience is on rails
b) that it's safe and all well explained
These were not true of DAoC. Classes were totally open ended. There were no guided leveling paths. There was a death penalty.
There were very few quests, too.
That's not what themepark means. That's just how its evolved, but it isn't what defines it. It has to do with the linearity of progression, more than anything else. It's not about whether the world is on rails, but whether character development is on rails. Everyone progresses in the same direction, towards some sort of level or skill cap. With or without an endgame.
In a sandbox, you have choices that can go in totally different diverse and opposing directions. You can skip combat entirely, to become a master craftsman, or a merchant, or a fisherman, or whatever else fits the game lore. Its not like those other things are just tacked onto a combat progression system, the way they are in all themeparks.
You can do that in DAoC too... many master crafters were level 20 characters. The majority of all RPGs have people progressing to some sort of skill cap.
To me, "Open World" is a Persistent World & Seamless World.
But all MMO have Persistent World. But many Themepark MMO have Seamless worlds. Even WoW has that.
Skyrim is called a Sandbox, but why? The world is just as open and seamless as WoW is. Where the sandbox come from?
Open world = zoneless world, doesnt necessarily mean seamless. Even though WoW was seemless it still had specific zones situated for a particular level.
DAoC IMO was a sandbox because for me the 2 main criteria for determining if an MMO is sandbox or not is 1. linear progression i.e. being "breadcrumbed" along a specific path doesnt matter if there are multiple paths or not. And 2. focus is on things to do at level cap or more commonly referred to as "end game".
At least at launch and the first expansion DAoC was VERY much bread crumbed, and quest hubbed. Not to the extent maybe of WoW and such, not enough to level solely off quests, but...
-There was a central road, further you went down the road the higher the mobs level.
-There were map regions, no overt loading, but when the sky and ingame color schemes would change as you took a step across the boundary it was clearly a different area.
-Each map region had a cluster of quest givers. The guards standing at a bridge, a hunters camp, a small village. Just there were no '!' over their heads.
-Many of the quests had defind levels and wouldn't unlock until the character leveled. I remember a L20 quest giver sending me out into the contested battlefields. Which when the game was fresh was quite doable, later though it was instant death by Headshot if you lacked stealth or an army.
So to me at least, DAoC was fun, great PvP, good memories, but by NO means a Sandbox, at least through the launch of Atlantis when I left.
Except the quests weren't the focus of the game, and the "road" wasn't linear, because there were many roads, with varying level ranges. The quests were few and far between, and you had to hunt for them. You never went to a place for the quests, you went there just to explore. Stonehenge, a single dungeon, could be played in from level 30-50. Darkness Falls was levels 16-50. Lots of places to go.
Sandboxes don't have levelling game, then end game, they just are.
Likewise EQ was a themepark too.
Themepark has become a dirty word because of the wow taken to extremes approach of swtor.
I suggest we have a third term for all these most of these modern themeparks - "glorified lobby game", because that's what they are once you level, you just sit in a city queueing to go instances. Exceptions being rift, aion, gw2 & war as at least they have reasons to go outside.
It's confusing to me how often the "themepark vs sandbox" argument crops up. In my eyes it's pretty simple and cut and dry - a sandbox implies what it literally means, which is an environment where you can build and, in some cases, terraform whatever you want, hence being like a "kid in a sanbox". Second life, despite not even being considered a "real" game to some people, is an example of an actual sandbox - you can pretty much build whatever you want, and the game is about as freeform as it gets. Minecraft is another example, as well as Xsyon as you have almost absolute freedom. Even Ultima Online is a sandbox to an extent, as you're able to build homes, literally brick by brick to your own design and fill it with items you yourself made - I don't believe teraforming is possible in the game though. And EVE, while being a pretty different beast, would be considered a sandbox as about 95% of everything in the game is player made.
Now ask yourself - how much of that is applicable to a game like DAoC? It's quite obviously a themepark game, in just about every respect. Sure, it allows for more variety and individualized variables then a game like WoW, but that doesn't make it a sandbox. I think calling it a "thinking man's themepark" makes far more sense, personally.
Just came up with this question in my head its friday night and I have a glass of wine, yes this is how geeks party.
In daoc I did not follow quest paths, from a low level it was about finding a group and grinding up mobs at various patches with people. You could build your own house and RvR was an open ended pvp situation.
Let me know what you think.
if you didnt follow quests you just played it wrong. ^^
daoc was a themepark, no idea why that needs 11 pages to discuss. most likely so some of the kids can pretend to be cool by claiming "i played a sandbox ages ago you newbs!"
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
In a sandbox, you have choices that can go in totally different diverse and opposing directions. You can skip combat entirely, to become a master craftsman, or a merchant, or a fisherman, or whatever else fits the game lore. Its not like those other things are just tacked onto a combat progression system, the way they are in all themeparks.
You can do that in DAoC too... many master crafters were level 20 characters. The majority of all RPGs have people progressing to some sort of skill cap.
Have you ever played MMOs like UO, EVE, or the original SWG? Crafting in real sandboxes is a whole game in itself. Crafting in DAOC isn't the same at all, it's hardly even gameplay, really. Just something players can do on the side. Its difficult to explain the difference to someone who's never even played a sandbox MMO.
Which is, unfortunately, becoming more and more people, since the last decent sandbox came out almost a decade ago.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Sandbox: a game where the gameplay is driven by the players (no lines to be followed) and players actions directly afects enviroment and endgame
In which case the huge RvR game that players influenced when to getting the relics directly impacted the realms bonuses, so in a sense the sides DID have a large sandbox element, once you had levelled enough to be effective in RvR and not just a big splatty target.
Within a ruleset though stug. Rvr when done right (daoc, planetside) is a grey area, as players do effect the world, though only through pvp and at fixed locations and in fixed sides.
If you imagine sandbox / themepark as a sliding scale, daoc would be just in the themepark end as it has pvp that effects the world, housing, meaningfull crafting and zero instancing. Then a little further along you would get say EQ, further still games like gw2 then right on the extreme end swtor. Like wise stuff like ac and swg would be only just in the sandbox side with stuff like eve and uo further over.
It was a themepark. The only folks who will think it is a sandbox probably never played a sandbox, and think that EQ1 was a sandbox.
Oh yay sandbox snab is here*rolls eyes* there is other types of sandboxes not just you`re type.
Just becouse it was not ryzom or w/e little game you think is a sandbox, does not mean it`s not a sandbox.
Man little let smelling you`re own a@@, get some fresh air.
Sorry if I offended you, but try to understand where I'm coming from.
When I started playing MMORPGs, there was only Ultima Online. A few years down the road, Everquest came out and the distinction between sandbox and themepark was created. To me, and to many other people, Everquest was the first game recognized as a themepark, so I use it as a touchstone.
DAoC is EXTREMELY similar to Everquest in many respects, so I see it as a themepark. I find it...interesting that many folks nowadays are trying to say that Everquest, and thus similar games like DAoC, were a sandboxes...which is funny because EQ was the FIRST themepark.
I really don't think the game elements that WoW popularized like questing have anything to do with the sandbox/themepark distinction. So the fact that DAoC didn't have any major questing is irrelevant IMO.
This is the only correct answer.
Sandbox means that you and other players create the content based upon what you choose to do. Themepark means that the content is created for you by the game makers.
Ultima Online was a sandbox game, just like the later Star Wars Galaxies Online. SWG had plenty of automatically generated quests, yet it was definitely a sandbox game.
Themepark games have a linear experience. You move from A to Z through B, C, D, etc. Sandbox means that you can do whatever you want, wherever and however you want to do it. Typically sandbox games have no class based system but a skill based system, where you can select from a set of skills and create your own unique class.
Themepark games on the other hand however, usually allow you to select a class that cannot be changed anymore. Tailored with talents or similar systems maybe, but a mage is always a mage. Usually, in sandbox games, you can change your skill set whenever you want to, and therefore change your unique class.
For that matter DAoC was most certainly a Themepark game. Like the above poster says: quests or no quests is completely irrelevant to the distinction between sandbox and themepark games.
The only truly sanbox game that is rather recent, that I know of at this time, is EVE Online. Also that game has plenty of quests if you want to follow those. But, as any true sandbox game, you can completely ignore them as well, and be perfectly fine in the game.
Also the opposite is true. A game like DAoC makes a good example. In the vanilla version there were only epic quests and a few that you could get from guards. Generally though, it was a grinding game. Later they put more quests in the game, but originally it was practically without them. Yet it was, and still is, a themepark game.
It was a themepark, in an age where themepark was a legitimate alternative to sandbox.
UO, EQ, and DAoC. All were great games, all were completely different. The problem isn't that we have themeparks now, it's that they're all dumbed down themeparks geared towards people who aren't really 'gamers'.
i dont agree that DAOC is a themepark at all , it had quests in it some places but it was mostly a grind game where you were free to go wherever you wanted to level. You couldnt teraform and there was instanced housing zones but there was plenty of freedom to level how you wanted to level and where you wanted to go. It def wasnt a true sandbox but it had elements of a sandbox as it wasnt quest driven. Also it had a open skill system for each class , you could level up any weapon in your trait lines or any spell school however you wanted as each level you were assigned points to spend however you wanted to in trees. Thats why you would see cookie cutter builds mostly but some hybrids were pretty nice when someone creative could come along and break the norm
i dont agree that DAOC is a themepark at all , it had quests in it some places but it was mostly a grind game where you were free to go wherever you wanted to level. You couldnt teraform and there was instanced housing zones but there was plenty of freedom to level how you wanted to level and where you wanted to go. It def wasnt a true sandbox but it had elements of a sandbox as it wasnt quest driven. Also it had a open skill system for each class , you could level up any weapon in your trait lines or any spell school however you wanted as each level you were assigned points to spend however you wanted to in trees. Thats why you would see cookie cutter builds mostly but some hybrids were pretty nice when someone creative could come along and break the norm
Wow you're so off base with DAoC. It was a themepark true and true. Let's start at character creation shall we? I had a Cleric we got the following equipment:
Weapon: Staves
Armor: Cloth, Leather, Small Shields @ level 1; Studded, Medium Shields @ level 10; Chain @ level 20
Level 4: Angelic Commendation (my first group heal), Heaven's Commendation (my big group heal), Gift of the Heavens, Renewal
And so on and so on
To pull up quest you typed: /quest and task was: /task
Healing and buffing were my role. Clerics were the best. Yes, yes you could put points into three lines of spells (Rejuvenation, Enchantment and Smiting). But any Cleric knew Rejuv was the way to get to endgame. Melee with a cleric? Forget it, but you could smite skeletons all day long.
You started off killing gray wolf pups (level 1) near Prydwen Keep. After that you moved onto Bear Cubs (2), Spriggan (3), Gray Wolves (4) and so on and so forth. Try to take on a mob conning red if you wanted. Try putting points into smite if you want. Try going to Black Mountains at level 1 if you want. Grouping was a must and the groups went to certain zones to grind between quest/task period. Grinding does not mean Sandbox. Nor does having the option of gimping your character by frivolously placing points in 3 different spell lines.
DAoC had:
Questing
Task (smaller quest)
Level requirements (For parties, raids and PvP that were player enforced)
Level-based mobs divided into zones
Defined classes with roles (Armsman-Tank, Cleric-Heals/Buffer, Scout-Puller, Sorcerer-CC)
Controlled PvP
Progression based skills and equipment (i.e. level up to get access to better things)
Class and Level based restrictions on equipment
I mean I loved DAoC back in the day, but like some others have stated I know the difference between UO and DAoC. And they were worlds apart.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
DAoC was a themepark, an early themepark, but defintely not a sandbox.
Quest chains, vetical progression through quests and zones, defined classes, epic storyline, quest hubs, ML grind, CL grind, RA grind, RP grind...there is nothing in DAoC that would make anyone who knows what the term means to even consider it to be a sandbox game.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
It wasn't sandbox, that's for sure. I moved towards "themepark" with Catacombs, but that was pretty late in the history.
It was really just a PvP alternative to EQ1, where instead of the endgame being dragons and demons, it was large scale battles with other realms. It was also interesting in that each of the three realms all had unique classes, so choosing a side was more than just a superficial preference for certain asthetics.
Anyway, there was no sandbox aspect to it outside of what every MMO has (player-run RP events and such).
Comments
That's not what themepark means. That's just how its evolved, but it isn't what defines it. It has to do with the linearity of progression, more than anything else. It's not about whether the world is on rails, but whether character development is on rails. Everyone progresses in the same direction, towards some sort of level or skill cap. With or without an endgame.
In a sandbox, you have choices that can go in totally different diverse and opposing directions. You can skip combat entirely, to become a master craftsman, or a merchant, or a fisherman, or whatever else fits the game lore. Its not like those other things are just tacked onto a combat progression system, the way they are in all themeparks.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
At least at launch and the first expansion DAoC was VERY much bread crumbed, and quest hubbed. Not to the extent maybe of WoW and such, not enough to level solely off quests, but...
-There was a central road, further you went down the road the higher the mobs level.
-There were map regions, no overt loading, but when the sky and ingame color schemes would change as you took a step across the boundary it was clearly a different area.
-Each map region had a cluster of quest givers. The guards standing at a bridge, a hunters camp, a small village. Just there were no '!' over their heads.
-Many of the quests had defind levels and wouldn't unlock until the character leveled. I remember a L20 quest giver sending me out into the contested battlefields. Which when the game was fresh was quite doable, later though it was instant death by Headshot if you lacked stealth or an army.
So to me at least, DAoC was fun, great PvP, good memories, but by NO means a Sandbox, at least through the launch of Atlantis when I left.
You can do that in DAoC too... many master crafters were level 20 characters. The majority of all RPGs have people progressing to some sort of skill cap.
Except the quests weren't the focus of the game, and the "road" wasn't linear, because there were many roads, with varying level ranges. The quests were few and far between, and you had to hunt for them. You never went to a place for the quests, you went there just to explore. Stonehenge, a single dungeon, could be played in from level 30-50.
Darkness Falls was levels 16-50. Lots of places to go.
But it us a themepark, because it has an endgame.
Sandboxes don't have levelling game, then end game, they just are.
Likewise EQ was a themepark too.
Themepark has become a dirty word because of the wow taken to extremes approach of swtor.
I suggest we have a third term for all these most of these modern themeparks - "glorified lobby game", because that's what they are once you level, you just sit in a city queueing to go instances. Exceptions being rift, aion, gw2 & war as at least they have reasons to go outside.
It's confusing to me how often the "themepark vs sandbox" argument crops up. In my eyes it's pretty simple and cut and dry - a sandbox implies what it literally means, which is an environment where you can build and, in some cases, terraform whatever you want, hence being like a "kid in a sanbox". Second life, despite not even being considered a "real" game to some people, is an example of an actual sandbox - you can pretty much build whatever you want, and the game is about as freeform as it gets. Minecraft is another example, as well as Xsyon as you have almost absolute freedom. Even Ultima Online is a sandbox to an extent, as you're able to build homes, literally brick by brick to your own design and fill it with items you yourself made - I don't believe teraforming is possible in the game though. And EVE, while being a pretty different beast, would be considered a sandbox as about 95% of everything in the game is player made.
Now ask yourself - how much of that is applicable to a game like DAoC? It's quite obviously a themepark game, in just about every respect. Sure, it allows for more variety and individualized variables then a game like WoW, but that doesn't make it a sandbox. I think calling it a "thinking man's themepark" makes far more sense, personally.
if you didnt follow quests you just played it wrong. ^^
daoc was a themepark, no idea why that needs 11 pages to discuss. most likely so some of the kids can pretend to be cool by claiming "i played a sandbox ages ago you newbs!"
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Have you ever played MMOs like UO, EVE, or the original SWG? Crafting in real sandboxes is a whole game in itself. Crafting in DAOC isn't the same at all, it's hardly even gameplay, really. Just something players can do on the side. Its difficult to explain the difference to someone who's never even played a sandbox MMO.
Which is, unfortunately, becoming more and more people, since the last decent sandbox came out almost a decade ago.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
In which case the huge RvR game that players influenced when to getting the relics directly impacted the realms bonuses, so in a sense the sides DID have a large sandbox element, once you had levelled enough to be effective in RvR and not just a big splatty target.
Those where the days!!!!
If you imagine sandbox / themepark as a sliding scale, daoc would be just in the themepark end as it has pvp that effects the world, housing, meaningfull crafting and zero instancing. Then a little further along you would get say EQ, further still games like gw2 then right on the extreme end swtor. Like wise stuff like ac and swg would be only just in the sandbox side with stuff like eve and uo further over.
This is the only correct answer.
Sandbox means that you and other players create the content based upon what you choose to do. Themepark means that the content is created for you by the game makers.
Ultima Online was a sandbox game, just like the later Star Wars Galaxies Online. SWG had plenty of automatically generated quests, yet it was definitely a sandbox game.
Themepark games have a linear experience. You move from A to Z through B, C, D, etc. Sandbox means that you can do whatever you want, wherever and however you want to do it. Typically sandbox games have no class based system but a skill based system, where you can select from a set of skills and create your own unique class.
Themepark games on the other hand however, usually allow you to select a class that cannot be changed anymore. Tailored with talents or similar systems maybe, but a mage is always a mage. Usually, in sandbox games, you can change your skill set whenever you want to, and therefore change your unique class.
For that matter DAoC was most certainly a Themepark game. Like the above poster says: quests or no quests is completely irrelevant to the distinction between sandbox and themepark games.
The only truly sanbox game that is rather recent, that I know of at this time, is EVE Online. Also that game has plenty of quests if you want to follow those. But, as any true sandbox game, you can completely ignore them as well, and be perfectly fine in the game.
Also the opposite is true. A game like DAoC makes a good example. In the vanilla version there were only epic quests and a few that you could get from guards. Generally though, it was a grinding game. Later they put more quests in the game, but originally it was practically without them. Yet it was, and still is, a themepark game.
It was a themepark, in an age where themepark was a legitimate alternative to sandbox.
UO, EQ, and DAoC. All were great games, all were completely different. The problem isn't that we have themeparks now, it's that they're all dumbed down themeparks geared towards people who aren't really 'gamers'.
this is like pointing at the color orange and asking "is it yellow or is it red"?
presupposing it can be just one or just the other, when in fact its a mixture of both.
this is true of MOST MMOs
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Corpus Callosum
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i dont agree that DAOC is a themepark at all , it had quests in it some places but it was mostly a grind game where you were free to go wherever you wanted to level. You couldnt teraform and there was instanced housing zones but there was plenty of freedom to level how you wanted to level and where you wanted to go. It def wasnt a true sandbox but it had elements of a sandbox as it wasnt quest driven. Also it had a open skill system for each class , you could level up any weapon in your trait lines or any spell school however you wanted as each level you were assigned points to spend however you wanted to in trees. Thats why you would see cookie cutter builds mostly but some hybrids were pretty nice when someone creative could come along and break the norm
Wow you're so off base with DAoC. It was a themepark true and true. Let's start at character creation shall we? I had a Cleric we got the following equipment:
Weapon: Staves
Armor: Cloth, Leather, Small Shields @ level 1; Studded, Medium Shields @ level 10; Chain @ level 20
Sprint @ level 1
Starting spells: Revive, Cure Poison, Cure Disease
Level 3: Beautified Remedy, Raised Fallen
Level 4: Angelic Commendation (my first group heal), Heaven's Commendation (my big group heal), Gift of the Heavens, Renewal
And so on and so on
To pull up quest you typed: /quest and task was: /task
Healing and buffing were my role. Clerics were the best. Yes, yes you could put points into three lines of spells (Rejuvenation, Enchantment and Smiting). But any Cleric knew Rejuv was the way to get to endgame. Melee with a cleric? Forget it, but you could smite skeletons all day long.
You started off killing gray wolf pups (level 1) near Prydwen Keep. After that you moved onto Bear Cubs (2), Spriggan (3), Gray Wolves (4) and so on and so forth. Try to take on a mob conning red if you wanted. Try putting points into smite if you want. Try going to Black Mountains at level 1 if you want. Grouping was a must and the groups went to certain zones to grind between quest/task period. Grinding does not mean Sandbox. Nor does having the option of gimping your character by frivolously placing points in 3 different spell lines.
DAoC had:
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
In a world of sharp knives, you would be a spoon.
DAoC was a themepark, an early themepark, but defintely not a sandbox.
Quest chains, vetical progression through quests and zones, defined classes, epic storyline, quest hubs, ML grind, CL grind, RA grind, RP grind...there is nothing in DAoC that would make anyone who knows what the term means to even consider it to be a sandbox game.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
It wasn't sandbox, that's for sure. I moved towards "themepark" with Catacombs, but that was pretty late in the history.
It was really just a PvP alternative to EQ1, where instead of the endgame being dragons and demons, it was large scale battles with other realms. It was also interesting in that each of the three realms all had unique classes, so choosing a side was more than just a superficial preference for certain asthetics.
Anyway, there was no sandbox aspect to it outside of what every MMO has (player-run RP events and such).
You make me like charity