Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Aventurine "gets it". I wish all MMO devs did.

DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

Today Tasos echoed something I have been saying for years. Something that always brings out the screaming themepark fans who just cannot see how games function without them.

Instances are there to help the developers, not the players.

 

Tasos says, roughly,

"On instances let me just say, we never had them, we don't have them, and we might never have them. They don't agree with our philosphy for a massively multiplayer game. ... We want player interaction to be at the major possible level and we don't want to limit it by instancing. Instancing is really not in our DNA...We don't want to take away from that. We don't like the instances, and if we ever do go to any form of instancing, it will be to improve our user experience, and not because they are more convenient to us. Because usually instance are used for technical reasons, for convenience of the developer."

 

I've always aid that instances are band aids for poor game design. Developers that rely on instancing do so because they can't figure out how to make a balanced MMO without it.

If you took instances out of WoW it would fall apart. EQ suffered without instances (in terms of camping rare spawns, not general leveling. General leveling flourished without instancing).

However, DAoC functioned perfectly without instances. I never waited in line for a mob spawn. Nobody ever stole my kills (which I always found to be a dumb objection anyway, because if someone were to go about stealing your kills, they could do it in the public zones just as easily)

 

If a dev adds instancing, it's because its sooo much easier to half ass a game and plop instances in, than think about an MMO as en entire ecosystem. Most MMOs are becoming a collection of side games all stapled together, seperated by instances. They are no longer big cohesive units.

 

I'm glad to see that Aventurine, one of the only companies that sees instances for what they are, a crutch, is also one of the ONLY MMO companies to GROW after launch in the last 8 years,

 

«13456711

Comments

  • SchockeySchockey Urbandale, IAPosts: 58Member
    That is goodstuff! My friend and I left one of the last big titles because the instancing was so inconvenient and the load screens took away so much from immersion.
  • Flex1Flex1 Cabo RojoPosts: 407Member

    If used perfectly instances can aid a mmo more than hurt it.

     

    I think Guild Wars 2 does it the way I would say perfectly fits the nature of instances. If you want story elements in your mmo add them.


    image

  • zimikezimike Dayton, TXPosts: 129Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Today Tasos echoed something I have been saying for years. Something that always brings out the screaming themepark fans who just cannot see how games function without them.

    Instances are there to help the developers, not the players.

     

    Tasos says, roughly,

    "On instances let me just say, we never had them, we don't have them, and we might never have them. They don't agree with our philosphy for a massively multiplayer game. ... We want player interaction to be at the major possible level and we don't want to limit it by instancing. Instancing is really not in our DNA...We don't want to take away from that. We don't like the instances, and if we ever do go to any form of instancing, it will be to improve our user experience, and not because they are more convenient to us. Because usually instance are used for technical reasons, for convenience of the developer."

     

    I've always aid that instances are band aids for poor game design. Developers that rely on instancing do so because they can't figure out how to make a balanced MMO without it.

    If you took instances out of WoW it would fall apart. EQ suffered without instances (in terms of camping rare spawns, not general leveling. General leveling flourished without instancing).

    However, DAoC functioned perfectly without instances. I never waited in line for a mob spawn. Nobody ever stole my kills (which I always found to be a dumb objection anyway, because if someone were to go about stealing your kills, they could do it in the public zones just as easily)

     

    If a dev adds instancing, it's because its sooo much easier to half ass a game and plop instances in, than think about an MMO as en entire ecosystem. Most MMOs are becoming a collection of side games all stapled together, seperated by instances. They are no longer big cohesive units.

     

    I'm glad to see that Aventurine, one of the only companies that sees instances for what they are, a crutch, is also one of the ONLY MMO companies to GROW after launch in the last 8 years,

     

     Well said my friend!

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,215Member Uncommon
    So no high resolution textures then?

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • tawesstawess LkpgPosts: 2,536Member Uncommon

    Ofc he says that, what else can he do seeing has his first game pretty much only had that aspect to save it from it self (and if i gather the feedback on these forums it did not do that very well either) the man i smart enough to know his market. It is a bit like when the makers of Rift did that whoke "this is not Azeroth" thing.

     

    But then again i seem to remmeber the same sort of buzz for DF 1 and that did not turn out so well (again according to the lovley crowd on Mmorpg) but if it will shut a part of the sandbox crowd that have not had their itch scratched since UO up i am fairly happy with that.

     

    Just be careful of the hypetrain, it will only let you down.

  • karmathkarmath Posts: 829Member Uncommon
    Say what you will about AV, but no one can fault them for actualy trying to do something different and stick to their guns.
  • xDayxxDayx St Charles, MOPosts: 712Member
    Yep. Open world is one of the sandbox tenets. Themeparkers will  never understand the appeal though.
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Flex1

    If used perfectly instances can aid a mmo more than hurt it.

     

    I think Guild Wars 2 does it the way I would say perfectly fits the nature of instances. If you want story elements in your mmo add them.

    But story elements are almost universally done poorly in MMOs. They do not mesh well with the rest of the game. Once you leave the instance in GW2 all that story is gone and none of the things you did in the instance reflect upon the real world.

    I will say that GW2 is more convservative with their instances, much more so than other MMOs. I can actually tolerate GW2 whereas WoW and AoC are just unberably instanced. They use it to cut off every aspect of the game.

     

    I feel like putting singleplayer storylines is just a huge waste of resources. A better story can be told using players in the game world.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by tawess

    Ofc he says that, what else can he do seeing has his first game pretty much only had that aspect to save it from it self (and if i gather the feedback on these forums it did not do that very well either) the man i smart enough to know his market. It is a bit like when the makers of Rift did that whoke "this is not Azeroth" thing.

     

    But then again i seem to remmeber the same sort of buzz for DF 1 and that did not turn out so well (again according to the lovley crowd on Mmorpg) but if it will shut a part of the sandbox crowd that have not had their itch scratched since UO up i am fairly happy with that.

     

    Just be careful of the hypetrain, it will only let you down.


    The MMORPG crowd was always hypercritical in regards to Darkfall. Pre release they derailed every single thread screaming "VAPORWARE!" When the game turned out to be real they collectively went out of their way to bash every aspect of the game, despite it being obvious that they hadn't played it.

    In reality, Darkfall did quite well for itself. Aventurine went from 20 devs to currently having 60 devs. They moved into a bigger building, opened a second server, completed 3 free expansions, and are now about to relaunch the game. It's a much better success story than just about every AAA WoW clone of the last 8 years.

     

    Originally posted by karmath
    Say what you will about AV, but no one can fault them for actualy trying to do something different and stick to their guns.

    One of the reasons the game was developed so many times was because every publisher that approached them tried to get them to add in instances and take out full loot. They stuck to their vision.

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member Common
    Any game that dares to not incorporate instances into its design gets two thumbs up from me. They have become ubiquitous and have done 0 good in any game. The only people who like them are people who don't like world monsters or have to have everything handed to them. I'm definitely going to try this game. Thanks for the post.
  • tawesstawess LkpgPosts: 2,536Member Uncommon

    Well on the other hand a good chunk of the fans of DF were pretty hypersensitive to anythink but praise for the game too.

     

    Now i personally have no opinion either way, i left the type of PvP enviorment after UO having had my fill of "bandit" players and gank-trains. But i have to agree that Aventurine seems to have learnt a lot from DF on what to do and what to not do and if they can deliver it will be a very nice game.

     

    Still not something for me but a nice game non the less.

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,538Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Today Tasos echoed something I have been saying for years. Something that always brings out the screaming themepark fans who just cannot see how games function without them.

    Instances are there to help the developers, not the players.

     

    Tasos says, roughly,

    "On instances let me just say, we never had them, we don't have them, and we might never have them. They don't agree with our philosphy for a massively multiplayer game. ... We want player interaction to be at the major possible level and we don't want to limit it by instancing. Instancing is really not in our DNA...We don't want to take away from that. We don't like the instances, and if we ever do go to any form of instancing, it will be to improve our user experience, and not because they are more convenient to us. Because usually instance are used for technical reasons, for convenience of the developer."

     

    I've always aid that instances are band aids for poor game design. Developers that rely on instancing do so because they can't figure out how to make a balanced MMO without it.

    If you took instances out of WoW it would fall apart. EQ suffered without instances (in terms of camping rare spawns, not general leveling. General leveling flourished without instancing).

    However, DAoC functioned perfectly without instances. I never waited in line for a mob spawn. Nobody ever stole my kills (which I always found to be a dumb objection anyway, because if someone were to go about stealing your kills, they could do it in the public zones just as easily)

     

    If a dev adds instancing, it's because its sooo much easier to half ass a game and plop instances in, than think about an MMO as en entire ecosystem. Most MMOs are becoming a collection of side games all stapled together, seperated by instances. They are no longer big cohesive units.

     

    I'm glad to see that Aventurine, one of the only companies that sees instances for what they are, a crutch, is also one of the ONLY MMO companies to GROW after launch in the last 8 years,

     

    I agree 100% with Tasos, and yourself, and would even if DF didn't exist and Tasos was involved in some completely different game.

    I didn't like Instances (for the stated reasons and more) when they were first introduced as a major gameplay element (giving everyone their own "private slice" of the game world), and I've liked them even less as their influence and use has spread and increased since.

    They are one of the major elements that has reduced MMORPG Worlds down to merely "games".

  • ezpz77ezpz77 Beale, CAPosts: 227Member
    I recall AV "getting it" when the first game was in the making too. On paper, they get it and say all the right buzzwords to get the bittervet sandbox crowd excited. If memory servers, what they delivered was QUITE different from what they were talking about. I'm as excited as the next bittervet at the prospect of having a half-decent sandbox to play, but given AV's history, I'm going to take the wait and see approach with UW.
  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ezpz77
    I recall AV "getting it" when the first game was in the making too. On paper, they get it and say all the right buzzwords to get the bittervet sandbox crowd excited. If memory servers, what they delivered was QUITE different from what they were talking about. I'm as excited as the next bittervet at the prospect of having a half-decent sandbox to play, but given AV's history, I'm going to take the wait and see approach with UW.

     

    After the latest interview, and looking back at the original DF, the dev's have a very different idea for DF than what the community has in mind.   I think we all want an MMORPG, but they only wanted DF to be a PvP arena.  Looking at the game from that perspective makes every design choice they made fit perfectly.

  • RaxeonRaxeon cedar falls, IAPosts: 2,090Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by ezpz77
    I recall AV "getting it" when the first game was in the making too. On paper, they get it and say all the right buzzwords to get the bittervet sandbox crowd excited. If memory servers, what they delivered was QUITE different from what they were talking about. I'm as excited as the next bittervet at the prospect of having a half-decent sandbox to play, but given AV's history, I'm going to take the wait and see approach with UW.

     

    After the latest interview, and looking back at the original DF, the dev's have a very different idea for DF than what the community has in mind.   I think we all want an MMORPG, but they only wanted DF to be a PvP arena.  Looking at the game from that perspective makes every design choice they made fit perfectly.

    or money and man power would make the choices make since too the more complex the game is the more time needed to code it

  • NiburuNiburu BerlinPosts: 378Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Flex1

    If used perfectly instances can aid a mmo more than hurt it.

     

    I think Guild Wars 2 does it the way I would say perfectly fits the nature of instances. If you want story elements in your mmo add them.

    Sorry but i prefer games in which the playerbase writes the story of the game and not some Dev.

     

    Turns out to be much more fun and years later you still talk about your old stories

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,925Member Uncommon
    I disagree. Instances in its biggest form make it possible to provide challenge to the player that would otherwise provide zerg, case in point GW2 zone events trivializing anything that stands as a challenge.
  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Purutzil
    I disagree. Instances in its biggest form make it possible to provide challenge to the player that would otherwise provide zerg, case in point GW2 zone events trivializing anything that stands as a challenge.

    What? Makes no sense. Most games got rid of death penalties = zerg. And no newer game offers challenge, these new modern so called mmorpg's basicaly throw everything in your lap and you dont have to put forth effort to accomplish anything. Older games had challenges and no instances. Instances dont make challenge, hell I have soloed many instances by myself and provided no challenge at all.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Tasos says, roughly,

    "On instances let me just say, we never had them, we don't have them, and we might never have them. They don't agree with our philosphy for a massively multiplayer game. ... We want player interaction to be at the major possible level and we don't want to limit it by instancing. Instancing is really not in our DNA...We don't want to take away from that. We don't like the instances, and if we ever do go to any form of instancing, it will be to improve our user experience, and not because they are more convenient to us. Because usually instance are used for technical reasons, for convenience of the developer."

    Wait wait...

    So are you paraphrasing, or are you directly quoting?  "Roughly" doesn't work with direct quotes ( which " " is intended to indicate.)

    It's important because direct quotes depend only on accurate transcription, not the integrity of the heresay second-hand reporter.

    The rest of your post seems to consist of RAWR YER SO RIGHT ME TOO! fawning, so...  (<---that is paraphrasing, of course)

     

    Gamers and Appeal to Authority arguments--either Devs are holy men, delivering Truth with a capital "T" from high atop the mount, or they're blithering idiots who never get a damned thing right, ever.  Which spin we attach seems to vary almost hourly, but here on mmorpg.com we tend to favor the 'blithering idiots' POV, at least a majority of the time.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,418Member Uncommon

    Yeah, a lot of back-patting in this thread.   'Someone agreed with me!  It must be true for all!'

     

    Instances are easier on developers,  because they solve certain problems.   Denying the problems exist does not solve them.  

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,706Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Schockey
    That is goodstuff! My friend and I left one of the last big titles because the instancing was so inconvenient and the load screens took away so much from immersion.

    To be honest, there are portals that get you inside the dungeon, but tecnically the dungeons are not instanced as everyone can get inside.

    Let's say AV is right in the middle an instanced and a non instanced dungeon

    Only seamless world is Vanguard  where dungeons are connected with the rest of the map with no portals

  • SiveriaSiveria Saint John, New BrunswickPosts: 1,200Member Uncommon

    Sadly they don't get that open world greif/gank fests won't survive in the mmo world of casuals. They should restrict all pvp to one big zone with land control and such, DAoC did it and it worked great, why can't others follow their examples? Not to mention most of these gankfest/greif mmo's don't even have any advancement tied to the pvp. DAoC worked so well because it let the pve people play in peace, but it also provided a nice pvp system for those into that. No other mmo has provided such a well done pvp system to this date, the closest I think would be Eq2, because you can gain some Alternate advancment points thru pvp.

    I myself love pvp when it is done right, but other than daoc, and maybe less-so eq2, no one else has gotten it right, or even close to right. To me arena garbage does not count as pvp, but neither does gankfest where max lv chars can prey on new players. For a mmo to survive it constantly needs new players coming in but I notice in these open world pvp mmo's that the games own community ends up killing the game they love by chasing new players away. Its also why I say the playerbase for most open world pvp mmo's are possibly the most immature of any games playerbase. I get the feeling I will be flamed for this, but what I said here is true, and it has been the downfall of many open world pvp titles.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • manusmanus SøgnePosts: 46Member
    only played two MMORPGs were instancing have added to my game experience, Anarchy Online and Dungeons and Dragons Online..
  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,870Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Aventurine "gets it".

    That is why DF is so successful...oh wait..



    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    "Because usually instance are used for technical reasons, for convenience of the developer."

    Yeah, seems like Tassos does not get it...at all. Instances are primarily there to improve player experience - "50 people fighting over a single quest/boss mob" issue.

  • zimikezimike Dayton, TXPosts: 129Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Aventurine "gets it".


     

    That is why DF is so successful...oh wait..

     


    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    "Because usually instance are used for technical reasons, for convenience of the developer."


     

    Yeah, seems like Tassos does not get it...at all. Instances are primarily there to improve player experience - "50 people fighting over a single quest/boss mob" issue.

    You just don't get it ... sigh!

«13456711
Sign In or Register to comment.