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With each leak it's becoming clearer why Mythic is dead

DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

From EA Louse, to covert messages dropped by former community leads, and now this.

Mythic is the story of a great company with tons of talent that got devoured by green, ego, and EA.

It's a crying shame, really. One of the best designed MMOs in the history of the genre, and there's NOTHING to show for it now.

 

I do wonder what he means when he says people actively tried to sabotage the game. I mean, they succeeded, and there were a lot of brain dead features added that make you go "They MUST be doing this on purpose, they can't be THIS dumb" but I wonder which specific ones they are.

Comments

  • boxsndboxsnd Kraxton, ARPosts: 438Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    From EA Louse, to covert messages dropped by former community leads, and now this.

    Mythic is the story of a great company with tons of talent that got devoured by green, ego, and EA.

    It's a crying shame, really. One of the best designed MMOs in the history of the genre, and there's NOTHING to show for it now.

     

    I do wonder what he means when he says people actively tried to sabotage the game. I mean, they succeeded, and there were a lot of brain dead features added that make you go "They MUST be doing this on purpose, they can't be THIS dumb" but I wonder which specific ones they are.

    Great company? LOL. EA took over in 2006. ToA came out in 2003 and NF in 2004. Shitty companies should stop blaming EA for their own failures. 

    DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Pacific Northwest, WAPosts: 682Member
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    From EA Louse, to covert messages dropped by former community leads, and now this.

    Mythic is the story of a great company with tons of talent that got devoured by green, ego, and EA.

    It's a crying shame, really. One of the best designed MMOs in the history of the genre, and there's NOTHING to show for it now.

     

    I do wonder what he means when he says people actively tried to sabotage the game. I mean, they succeeded, and there were a lot of brain dead features added that make you go "They MUST be doing this on purpose, they can't be THIS dumb" but I wonder which specific ones they are.

    Great company? LOL. EA took over in 2006. ToA came out in 2003 and NF in 2004. Shitty companies should stop blaming EA for their own failures. 

    +1 Mythic was broken long before EA got their fingers in it.

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    From EA Louse, to covert messages dropped by former community leads, and now this.

    Mythic is the story of a great company with tons of talent that got devoured by green, ego, and EA.

    It's a crying shame, really. One of the best designed MMOs in the history of the genre, and there's NOTHING to show for it now.

     

    I do wonder what he means when he says people actively tried to sabotage the game. I mean, they succeeded, and there were a lot of brain dead features added that make you go "They MUST be doing this on purpose, they can't be THIS dumb" but I wonder which specific ones they are.

    Great company? LOL. EA took over in 2006. ToA came out in 2003 and NF in 2004. Shitty companies should stop blaming EA for their own failures. 

    Hooh boy. First, Mythic has been around for a long time. They had about 4 games before DAoC.

    Second, they managed to create one of the best MMORPGs ever, so at SOME point in their history, they were great.

    Third, the amount of mistakes that came flooding in after EA bought the company outstrip the ToA mistake by a MASSIVE margin. Or did you forget about WAR?

    Read the article before you comment.

  • GolelornGolelorn Hiding From Social Media Peeping Toms, ALPosts: 1,099Member Uncommon
    Yep, DAoC had long gone to shit before EA came along. Is it really any surprise that the clowns who destroyed the best MMO ever created also created Warhammer Online? Clearly, the early days of DAoC was a fluke, and the tards the headed Mythic had no idea what made it so magical.
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Golelorn
    Yep, DAoC had long gone to shit before EA came along. Is it really any surprise that the clowns who destroyed the best MMO ever created also created Warhammer Online? Clearly, the early days of DAoC was a fluke, and the tards the headed Mythic had no idea what made it so magical.

    At one point I may have agreed with you, but if you look at all their pre DAoC games, they were all very similar. They knew very well what worked, and they perfected that formula in DAoC. It's much more logical to assume that they were destroyed by their own success, as is said in the rant in the first post. There is no question that EA took a company that had kind of lost its way, and totally DESTROYED them, putting all the wrong people in charge.

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member

    i remember one of the DAOC producer's letters or such from the early naughties saying they had pledged to constantly revise/improve DAOC until it was a completely different game (as far as like art assets).  instead of abandoning it to work on another game.  apparently they only went as far as an avatar revamp..... i didn't really keep up with the game after Catacombs.

     

    just imagine if they'd stuck to that word, and put all those man years of labour that went into Warhammer Online, into completely revamping DAOC.

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member
    BTW, that link in the OP no longer works  8(

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by corpusc

    i remember one of the DAOC producer's letters or such from the early naughties saying they had pledged to constantly revise/improve DAOC until it was a completely different game (as far as like art assets).  instead of abandoning it to work on another game.  apparently they only went as far as an avatar revamp..... i didn't really keep up with the game after Catacombs.

     

    just imagine if they'd stuck to that word, and put all those man years of labour that went into Warhammer Online, into completely revamping DAOC.

    Yeah I remember they said DAoC would never have a sequel, it would just get updated.

    Before EA pulled the plug on the last traces of old Mythic they were planning a true classic server (no expansions) and even a sequel. But EA shifted them all to focus on saving WAR and SWTOR.

     

    For those who didn't see the link, it's here. People are trying to pull it from the internet, fearing legal recourse, so I'm going to remove the name, not that it'll help much I think.

    "

    Redacted once had an important job at UO and DAoC that I will not mention. With what seems to be a rage “I am quitting Facebook for “allowing us to be pretentious with one another”, Redacted “will have a lot to say between now and then”. Today he wrote quite the long bash to former Mythic co-workers as goodbyes. Here’s what he had to say:

    So, in keeping with my promise to have much to say before Facebook becomes history to me, to my former “Mythic” friends, I have the following seven points:

    1) Mark Jacobs *and* Rob Denton gave me a chance. I never interviewed with Mark before being hired. That was *all* Rob. I was actually sick with a bad cold at the time. But I made the flight and sat in his office, and he actually hired me.

    And… being a single dad, Rob even gave me advances in pay for several months after being hired. He was absolutely gracious. Yet at the same time, it was Rob who ultimately broke my heart, and it was Mark who saved it.

    2) The company was squandered away into obscurity over pettiness and unbridled monetary greed. We could have been great, but we were only mediocre, and then we just plain sucked after a while. Sure, DAoC went on to make shit tons of money and allowed the company to blossom (and ultimately is what led to EA having interest enough to acquire the company). But as soon as one particular person got a taste of “millions of dollars”, that person stopped being true to his heart and nature. And with this point, I am speaking *squarely* at Rob and not Mark. Because Mark never forgot, and I can attest to that *personally*. Because the man helped me when no one else would, and long after “Mythic” was over. Yet it was Rob who always considered the money and “status” to be far more important than even the best of people and talent that made it all possible in the first fucking place, who was all too happy to get rid of value in favor of self-aggrandizement. So, while I greatly respect Rob and always will for what he did do for myself and my daughter, he still lost his light and betrayed many people, including his primary partner (Mark), after the money began to flow, and many souls were left hanging out to dry, and thus whatever good he did for me has become irrelevant compared to the harm he caused to others over the years. And I know he must know this, because he’s also one of the most intelligent people I have ever met. It’s just too bad that he allowed his ego to overtake his good sense and to ultimately destroy Mythic.

    3) I wish I could have been more as a leader in the company. I wish my personality was such that I could have “saved” DAoC and the company itself from failure. I wish I could have been more persuasive. But I failed as well, because I could not convince the “powers that be” to do the right things (such as not abandoning flagship products and laying off integral people in favor of cashing in on ego). But it is what it is and was what it was, and I did the best I could, and I hope you know that my heart was in it from the beginning to the end.

    4) Jeff Hickman: I always respected you despite your complete lack of experience developing games at the time. I could talk to you about anything. I remember many days when I came to your office, and you always had a smile and a warm welcome. But man, when you became my boss, I found a vicious animal who instead of talking the real deal and being as humble as you seemed, you instead talked “crazy ideas” and then forced them upon me like a dictator. In hindsight, you were *only* interested in your “EA career” and not at all in the products or people you led. You completely fucked up Warhammer, but then blamed it on others to the extent that others’ careers were ruined. You failed to take *any* responsibility. And after learning how corruptible you were, it broke my fucking heart. Just as it did Mark’s, when you betrayed him instead of facing the music as you should have. (And please note that I am speaking only from my own interpretation, and NOT on behalf of Mark, of course.) I don’t even know why you are a ‘friend’ on FB after the BS you pulled.

    5) To those who remember being on the DAoC and UO teams, and what I did as Producer to make sure we all worked together to do the best we could under preposterous conditions, I thank you. You know who you are. But to those who worked every minute to sabotage the two games, FUCK YOU. And you also know who you are.

    6) EA is a mess and always will be until the company gets back to its roots. That’s what happens when you think you know it all, but then you don’t. Sure, acquiring talent is a great thing. But if you lose the talent you purchased through the process, because you were too dumb to know what it actually was that was being purchased, then you deserve the terrible outcome you receive. You did nothing to protect the talent at Mythic you spent $100 million on. But who gives a damn, right? Because what’s $100 million to EA. Unless, of course, you enact the same amateur philosophy in every purchase (including of Bioware), and so you reap what you fucking sew. And to be honest, I look forward to the day when EA collapses and the IP is transferred to another company that actually gives a damn about what it is they are doing.

    7) To the people who composed the teams on which I was a member, and over which I was charged with supervision, you were awesome for the most part (save for the above chastisements and a few others I care not to mention). You made every day worthwhile for me, and I only hope that I measured up even during those times when I felt I did not. Again, you know who you are.

    November 27th, approximately 11 pm, here I come.

    But no worries. More to follow tomorrow. ;)

    Redacted apparently has not gotten over the fact that he was laid off in January 10th. He apparently has a lot more to say in the upcoming days.

    I am not a fan of rant posts like these, they are quite energy-draining. Phew."

     

     

    So, there's that.

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXPosts: 3,483Member Uncommon

    DAoC in itself was a great game as my Top 3 quote shows. Yes, ToA expansion ruined it, but at least ME cared enough to admit to their mistake and made classic servers. Something larger companies failed to do when they massively fucked up a game, like SOE and SWG.

    EA is very well known for herding in quality companies and destroying them from the inside out. Personally, I think EA hates MMO's and would rather the genre die to make way for their neverending desire to put Console gaming back at the top. I don't blame Mythic and I certainly don't blame BioWare either. EA just plain sucks and I wish nothing but the worst for them.

    image

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member
    Damn, nothing in there about Firor?  

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Pacific Northwest, WAPosts: 682Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    From EA Louse, to covert messages dropped by former community leads, and now this.

    Mythic is the story of a great company with tons of talent that got devoured by green, ego, and EA.

    It's a crying shame, really. One of the best designed MMOs in the history of the genre, and there's NOTHING to show for it now.

     

    I do wonder what he means when he says people actively tried to sabotage the game. I mean, they succeeded, and there were a lot of brain dead features added that make you go "They MUST be doing this on purpose, they can't be THIS dumb" but I wonder which specific ones they are.

    Great company? LOL. EA took over in 2006. ToA came out in 2003 and NF in 2004. Shitty companies should stop blaming EA for their own failures. 

    Hooh boy. First, Mythic has been around for a long time. They had about 4 games before DAoC.

    Second, they managed to create one of the best MMORPGs ever, so at SOME point in their history, they were great.

    Third, the amount of mistakes that came flooding in after EA bought the company outstrip the ToA mistake by a MASSIVE margin. Or did you forget about WAR?

    Read the article before you comment.

    No, we did not forget about WAR. Development started on that pile of poop well before EA took over the helm.

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Rhoklaw

    DAoC in itself was a great game as my Top 3 quote shows. Yes, ToA expansion ruined it, but at least ME cared enough to admit to their mistake and made classic servers. Something larger companies failed to do when they massively fucked up a game, like SOE and SWG.

    EA is very well known for herding in quality companies and destroying them from the inside out. Personally, I think EA hates MMO's and would rather the genre die to make way for their neverending desire to put Console gaming back at the top. I don't blame Mythic and I certainly don't blame BioWare either. EA just plain sucks and I wish nothing but the worst for them.

    I think a lot of people forget that Mythic did try to fix their ToA mistake, through both classic servers, and making ToA trials very easy. There were still pieces of people who cared then, but after EA bought Mythic, there was a very sudden, very noticable decline in quality.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    From EA Louse, to covert messages dropped by former community leads, and now this.

    Mythic is the story of a great company with tons of talent that got devoured by green, ego, and EA.

    It's a crying shame, really. One of the best designed MMOs in the history of the genre, and there's NOTHING to show for it now.

     

    I do wonder what he means when he says people actively tried to sabotage the game. I mean, they succeeded, and there were a lot of brain dead features added that make you go "They MUST be doing this on purpose, they can't be THIS dumb" but I wonder which specific ones they are.

    Great company? LOL. EA took over in 2006. ToA came out in 2003 and NF in 2004. Shitty companies should stop blaming EA for their own failures. 

    Hooh boy. First, Mythic has been around for a long time. They had about 4 games before DAoC.

    Second, they managed to create one of the best MMORPGs ever, so at SOME point in their history, they were great.

    Third, the amount of mistakes that came flooding in after EA bought the company outstrip the ToA mistake by a MASSIVE margin. Or did you forget about WAR?

    Read the article before you comment.

    No, we did not forget about WAR. Development started on that pile of poop well before EA took over the helm.

    Er, no it didn't... EA had the WAR license, not Mythic. Mythic at the time was working on Imperator, a game which got canned so they'd work on WAR.

  • OgreRaperOgreRaper Detroit, MIPosts: 376Member
    Oh well. I'll keep my fond memories of DAOC and hope that one day an MMO is released that can match the epicness of DAOC's RvR system.
  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Pacific Northwest, WAPosts: 682Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    From EA Louse, to covert messages dropped by former community leads, and now this.

    Mythic is the story of a great company with tons of talent that got devoured by green, ego, and EA.

    It's a crying shame, really. One of the best designed MMOs in the history of the genre, and there's NOTHING to show for it now.

     

    I do wonder what he means when he says people actively tried to sabotage the game. I mean, they succeeded, and there were a lot of brain dead features added that make you go "They MUST be doing this on purpose, they can't be THIS dumb" but I wonder which specific ones they are.

    Great company? LOL. EA took over in 2006. ToA came out in 2003 and NF in 2004. Shitty companies should stop blaming EA for their own failures. 

    Hooh boy. First, Mythic has been around for a long time. They had about 4 games before DAoC.

    Second, they managed to create one of the best MMORPGs ever, so at SOME point in their history, they were great.

    Third, the amount of mistakes that came flooding in after EA bought the company outstrip the ToA mistake by a MASSIVE margin. Or did you forget about WAR?

    Read the article before you comment.

    No, we did not forget about WAR. Development started on that pile of poop well before EA took over the helm.

    Er, no it didn't... EA had the WAR license, not Mythic. Mythic at the time was working on Imperator, a game which got canned so they'd work on WAR.

    Then it's funny how they managed to announce it at E3 in 2005.

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    From EA Louse, to covert messages dropped by former community leads, and now this.

    Mythic is the story of a great company with tons of talent that got devoured by green, ego, and EA.

    It's a crying shame, really. One of the best designed MMOs in the history of the genre, and there's NOTHING to show for it now.

     

    I do wonder what he means when he says people actively tried to sabotage the game. I mean, they succeeded, and there were a lot of brain dead features added that make you go "They MUST be doing this on purpose, they can't be THIS dumb" but I wonder which specific ones they are.

    Great company? LOL. EA took over in 2006. ToA came out in 2003 and NF in 2004. Shitty companies should stop blaming EA for their own failures. 

    Hooh boy. First, Mythic has been around for a long time. They had about 4 games before DAoC.

    Second, they managed to create one of the best MMORPGs ever, so at SOME point in their history, they were great.

    Third, the amount of mistakes that came flooding in after EA bought the company outstrip the ToA mistake by a MASSIVE margin. Or did you forget about WAR?

    Read the article before you comment.

    No, we did not forget about WAR. Development started on that pile of poop well before EA took over the helm.

    Er, no it didn't... EA had the WAR license, not Mythic. Mythic at the time was working on Imperator, a game which got canned so they'd work on WAR.

    Then it's funny how they managed to announce it at E3 in 2005.

    You're right, Mythic got the rights to WAR in 2005, which was the same time they were in negotiations with EA to be bought out. EA never had the rights until they bought Mythic. Regardless, the reports from devs that have leaked out from WAR have shown that EA tampered in every aspect of WAR's development.

  • karmathkarmath Posts: 829Member Uncommon

    It's pretty much the same story with every IP and development studio on the planet. 

    It goes from a shitty old small office of dedicated developers with little money but a heck of alot of skill and dedication to a massive corporation with multiple offices filled with bean counters, members of board, ceo's and just plain old incompetant fools with truck loads of money with no skill or vision other than cashing in as quickly as possible. The ones who do have any clue are drowned out or fired.

    Welcome to the reason why we have been playing nothing but re iterations WoW for the past decade.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,657Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by karmath

    It's pretty much the same story with every IP and development studio on the planet. 

    It goes from a shitty old small office of dedicated developers with little money but a heck of alot of skill and dedication to a massive corporation with multiple offices filled with bean counters, members of board, ceo's and just plain old incompetant fools with truck loads of money with no skill or vision other than cashing in as quickly as possible. The ones who do have any clue are drowned out or fired.

    Welcome to the reason why we have been playing nothing but re iterations WoW for the past decade.

    When you're done raging against the machine, take a minute to actually walk through that scenario and you'll see the actual "reason why we have been playing nothing but re iterations WOW for the past decade" is because people are paying for it.

    After all, your argument is that it's no longer dedicated developers who love making games but now EvilCorpCo who only cares about money. Seems that if they have truck loads of money and their goal is "cashing in" then they'd probably make what people want to buy. And if people are buying it, they'll make more. And if more people buy that, they'll keep making more.

    So, isn't the real "reason why we have been playing nothing but re iterations WOW for the past decade" simply that people are buying up preorders and making it worth their while to do it? If the game doesn't do well, at least they recouped their losses. If the game does well, they make bank. The MMO gamers are driving this train. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that magically the rules of commerce do not apply to the game industry.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • tawesstawess LkpgPosts: 2,535Member Uncommon

    Well no matter what have been done or what EA did or did not do i am not entierky sure that Mythic would have done much of anything without EA. Sure DAoC have a stable (and by now slightly rabid) fanbase but it is not the biggest one in the world and i am not sure they would have had the funds to make much outside of keeping it rolling without EA money.

     

    As for WAR... Well that was a pretty bad idea to begin with and it did not get any better as time went by. It seems to me that there was in essence two games being made and then sticthed together.... Becuase on their own each part have the potential of a good game, they are just underdeveloped.

     

    But back on topic, is mythic dead... Yes, that is what happens when you join the EA hive mind. It is the price you pay for solid funding and one of the worlds best publishing networks.

  • GenadiGenadi BrisbanePosts: 110Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by karmath

    It's pretty much the same story with every IP and development studio on the planet. 

    It goes from a shitty old small office of dedicated developers with little money but a heck of alot of skill and dedication to a massive corporation with multiple offices filled with bean counters, members of board, ceo's and just plain old incompetant fools with truck loads of money with no skill or vision other than cashing in as quickly as possible. The ones who do have any clue are drowned out or fired.

    Welcome to the reason why we have been playing nothing but re iterations WoW for the past decade.

    When you're done raging against the machine, take a minute to actually walk through that scenario and you'll see the actual "reason why we have been playing nothing but re iterations WOW for the past decade" is because people are paying for it.

    I guess 90% of sub mmo's have gone f2p for fun this past year.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by tawess

    Well no matter what have been done or what EA did or did not do i am not entierky sure that Mythic would have done much of anything without EA. Sure DAoC have a stable (and by now slightly rabid) fanbase but it is not the biggest one in the world and i am not sure they would have had the funds to make much outside of keeping it rolling without EA money.

    Er, DAoC was the second most popular MMORPG on the market prior to WoW's release. They had two more MMOs in the pipes. They were not having money issues.

  • lindhskylindhsky Helsingborg, FLPosts: 129Member Uncommon

    In my opinion DAOC was the best game ever, but I am not sure their RvR-system would be as successful today no matter how much I would like it in a game. Because players have changed. When DAOC was at its peak there were no instanced PVP (scenarios, battlegrounds, warzones etc). So when people wanted PvP they went to the warzones. That created realmpride. The smaller enemy had to think to be successful. They had to be organized. In Warhammer when the enemy pushed with an organized attack in a warzone people just quit, because they got more "points" by doing instanced PvP. So the realmpride was gone and the PvP turned out to be PvE instead taking empty keeps for points etc.

    That is another problem. In todays games people want reward for whatever they do. In Warhammer you get points for taking empty keeps. You get points for taking undefended objectives. In DAOC you got points for killing the enemies. So by taking a keep you know the enemies would come and an epic battle giving points.

    The three faction system was also something good in DAOC that they skipped in Warhammer. Another failure in my opinion.

    In DAOC you got interesting abilities while increasing in rank in pvp. But you didn't farm instanced pvp to get it. You went to the warzones to battle your enemies. Nowadays people just log in, hit the button for instanced pvp, get their points. Sometimes they do not even bother winning if they are not playing with their friends. They just want the match to end so they get their points so that they can go to the next one.

    But when I played Warhammer I got to the conclusion that the players have changed. They want action when they log in so they want instanced pvp. They do not want to go to a warzone and look for a battle somewhere. They dont want to go to a warzone to find themselves outnumbered. That was not the case with DAOC. Back then people didn't have to have everything served on a plate.   So I am not sure we will ever get the same feeling as in DAOC ever again in a game.

  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance ParisPosts: 1,223Member
    Originally posted by lindhsky

    In my opinion DAOC was the best game ever, but I am not sure their RvR-system would be as successful today no matter how much I would like it in a game. Because players have changed. When DAOC was at its peak there were no instanced PVP (scenarios, battlegrounds, warzones etc). So when people wanted PvP they went to the warzones. That created realmpride. The smaller enemy had to think to be successful. They had to be organized. In Warhammer when the enemy pushed with an organized attack in a warzone people just quit, because they got more "points" by doing instanced PvP. So the realmpride was gone and the PvP turned out to be PvE instead taking empty keeps for points etc.

    That is another problem. In todays games people want reward for whatever they do. In Warhammer you get points for taking empty keeps. You get points for taking undefended objectives. In DAOC you got points for killing the enemies. So by taking a keep you know the enemies would come and an epic battle giving points.

    The three faction system was also something good in DAOC that they skipped in Warhammer. Another failure in my opinion.

    In DAOC you got interesting abilities while increasing in rank in pvp. But you didn't farm instanced pvp to get it. You went to the warzones to battle your enemies. Nowadays people just log in, hit the button for instanced pvp, get their points. Sometimes they do not even bother winning if they are not playing with their friends. They just want the match to end so they get their points so that they can go to the next one.

    But when I played Warhammer I got to the conclusion that the players have changed. They want action when they log in so they want instanced pvp. They do not want to go to a warzone and look for a battle somewhere. They dont want to go to a warzone to find themselves outnumbered. That was not the case with DAOC. Back then people didn't have to have everything served on a plate.   So I am not sure we will ever get the same feeling as in DAOC ever again in a game.

    Yep, I agree that players have changed a lot, even those who gamed in the original DAoC like me.

    Games have gotten a lot faster paced and a lot more polished. DAoC's roughness was acceptable back in the early days of MMOs but much less so now. Plus some of the design concepts are completely outdated: over-reliance on the trinity to the point that many classes had to group (healers in particular). This promoted two boxing and dual accounting, because you can't always rely on people being on to group up all the time. I think a lot of gamers these days would not be happy to feel forced into getting two accounts to run simultaneously.

    Other aspects that would not really be that acceptable these days, especially in the first iteration of the game: no ingame maps, teleporation to the RvR zones that were not constant (remember having to sit on the teleport pad?), commands that have to be macroed by hand, no personal mounts and very little instant travel, deathspam that can be at times humiliating, and a crafting system that was extremely costly, dull to level up and therefore difficult and not accessible to everyone. There was no real vertical progression treadmill up until ToA was released and I think a lot of people would not like that.

     

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

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  • karmathkarmath Posts: 829Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by karmath

    It's pretty much the same story with every IP and development studio on the planet. 

    It goes from a shitty old small office of dedicated developers with little money but a heck of alot of skill and dedication to a massive corporation with multiple offices filled with bean counters, members of board, ceo's and just plain old incompetant fools with truck loads of money with no skill or vision other than cashing in as quickly as possible. The ones who do have any clue are drowned out or fired.

    Welcome to the reason why we have been playing nothing but re iterations WoW for the past decade.

    When you're done raging against the machine, take a minute to actually walk through that scenario and you'll see the actual "reason why we have been playing nothing but re iterations WOW for the past decade" is because people are paying for it.

    After all, your argument is that it's no longer dedicated developers who love making games but now EvilCorpCo who only cares about money. Seems that if they have truck loads of money and their goal is "cashing in" then they'd probably make what people want to buy. And if people are buying it, they'll make more. And if more people buy that, they'll keep making more.

    So, isn't the real "reason why we have been playing nothing but re iterations WOW for the past decade" simply that people are buying up preorders and making it worth their while to do it? If the game doesn't do well, at least they recouped their losses. If the game does well, they make bank. The MMO gamers are driving this train. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that magically the rules of commerce do not apply to the game industry.

    My point entirely.

  • ZinzanZinzan NorthPosts: 1,351Member
    Originally posted by lindhsky

    In my opinion DAOC was the best game ever, but I am not sure their RvR-system would be as successful today no matter how much I would like it in a game. Because players have changed. When DAOC was at its peak there were no instanced PVP (scenarios, battlegrounds, warzones etc). So when people wanted PvP they went to the warzones. That created realmpride. The smaller enemy had to think to be successful. They had to be organized. In Warhammer when the enemy pushed with an organized attack in a warzone people just quit, because they got more "points" by doing instanced PvP. So the realmpride was gone and the PvP turned out to be PvE instead taking empty keeps for points etc.

    That is another problem. In todays games people want reward for whatever they do. In Warhammer you get points for taking empty keeps. You get points for taking undefended objectives. In DAOC you got points for killing the enemies. So by taking a keep you know the enemies would come and an epic battle giving points.

    The three faction system was also something good in DAOC that they skipped in Warhammer. Another failure in my opinion.

    In DAOC you got interesting abilities while increasing in rank in pvp. But you didn't farm instanced pvp to get it. You went to the warzones to battle your enemies. Nowadays people just log in, hit the button for instanced pvp, get their points. Sometimes they do not even bother winning if they are not playing with their friends. They just want the match to end so they get their points so that they can go to the next one.

    But when I played Warhammer I got to the conclusion that the players have changed. They want action when they log in so they want instanced pvp. They do not want to go to a warzone and look for a battle somewhere. They dont want to go to a warzone to find themselves outnumbered. That was not the case with DAOC. Back then people didn't have to have everything served on a plate.   So I am not sure we will ever get the same feeling as in DAOC ever again in a game.

    Yes, completely agree. This is why GW2 is so horrible for ex-DAoCers.

    GW2 offered the potential for server pride, nothing doing because players don't think that way anymore.

    As for the original post, GOA, Right-Now, Prydwen crash, thats all im saying.

    Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

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