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Originally posted by Brigander **Please read here if you only read one paragraph of my post (Krage/Uhwop) In regards to the "degree" in game design** Again -- you should read the thread, I've addressed that point several times and I never state because they don't have a game design degree doesn't mean they can't lead a game. I did state someone with such little background often can come off as sloppy and amateurish without a background in game design and having previous projects under their belt, which is how I see Appleton and Greed Monger. I think he lacks a certain professionalism that he would of acquired better if he had more training and experience in the game world. I make no mention of needing a degree, you're just looking for something to pick out of a long post to dwell on that isn't true, sorry but it's just poor reading skills or ... well, I don't know what else -- I guess just poor reading skills. [b]No where do I state he is required to have a game design degree in order to be an efficent and good leader.[/b] I don't believe that, I know many freelancer workers with no game design degree and working on games. Again, I never said that, if that's how you read it (and then you fail to read everything else) then I am sorry for you.
This is your quote "Jason Appleton isn't a game designer, he doesn't have a degree in game design or coding. He also has no prior game industry experience besides merely PLAYING games, which everyone has, but that doesn't make you capable of leading a team. Yes, he may have experience in leadership and marketting, but it is not the same."
It implies his lack of degree or coding knowledge eliminates him from being a game designer. Then you sort of contradict by saying his experience of playing games does not make him capable of leading a team, although he has experience in leadership and marketing.
Your opinion from what I gathered from that first part of your post is he is not qualified to design a game due to his lack of experience and degree, which is fine since it is your opinion. I simply posted some very successful game developers who did not have game design experience or game designer degrees.
As for you elaborating and saying he lacks professionalism which would be increased from industry experince that is probably true, although his level of professionalism varies from what others posted on their opinions of his professionalism.
My reading comprehension is fine, perhaps my explanation shows how I came to my conclusion based on your OP so perhaps if several people "misread" your post or lack "reading comprehension" its more of a failure on your part?
As for the rest of the entire OP its all legitimate concerns, I have no horse in this race.
My wording was poor in that paragraph, but I explain about his professionalism later in the post and I think I even relate that back to not having the experience in the game industry. Again, the full post.
I also clarified that same exact a post a few pages back before you questioned it, but you must not of read all my replies. I don't blame you though, theres 5+ pages. I apologize for insulting you reading abilities, it's just annoying that I have clarified that several times, and it just keeps coming up. It's like putting words in my mouth.
Originally posted by Brigander My wording was poor in that paragraph, but I explain about his professionalism later in the post and I think I even relate that back to not having the experience in the game industry. Again, the full post.
I just edited my last response to include "As for the rest of the entire OP its all legitimate concerns, I have no horse in this race."
I read the full thing and it is a reasonable critique, I didnt want to seem combative, just posting on that single point of degrees because its the only disagreement I saw for discussion on this forum thread.
Originally posted by JamesP Ok can everyone involved please just drop it! Our KickStarter is over with. Continuing on this discussion isn't going to amount to anything. It's pretty clear to see that we have a large following of dedicated members who want to help us get this game released based on the fact that we more then tripled our goal. We are moving forward with development inspite of what might be being said about us. If you don't want to back us then that's fine it's your choice but coming here and posting and arguing is really doing no one any good. What mistakes we as a team have made in the past are in the past let's just focus on the future and getting this game released!
Good luck with your large following. Asking people to just drop the discussion doesn't seem very PR friendly. Maybe you guys should spend some of your purchasing-art assets money for a PR rep instead.
Playing:SW:TORPlayed: A lot.Beta tested: Freaking everything.Looking forward to: Nothing.
Originally posted by Brigander Originally posted by JamesP Ok can everyone involved please just drop it! Our KickStarter is over with. Continuing on this discussion isn't going to amount to anything. It's pretty clear to see that we have a large following of dedicated members who want to help us get this game released based on the fact that we more then tripled our goal. We are moving forward with development inspite of what might be being said about us. If you don't want to back us then that's fine it's your choice but coming here and posting and arguing is really doing no one any good. What mistakes we as a team have made in the past are in the past let's just focus on the future and getting this game released!
I hope your game does well, as I said. If it is released ever I will try it out, but I do think you need to relook at your Public Relations and hire someone to handle that for you. Jason Appleton likely has another side that you all see and understand, but to a random investor like myself who never met him -- I don't feel ensured by anything he says. That YouTube interview made me have so many more questions and doubts of the project because of his responses to many things.
The game concept sounds "new" to a degree, I think there's games like it, but it seems fun, but overall I think the way your team is perceived and reputation is kept is important to your success. Going to such lengths like Appleton did to join another game's forum and start a fight is uncalled for, and his answers about using fake Facebook people to get more noticed isn't very trusting.
I will hopefully end here with this post. I do wish you guys luck, I do want more creative MMOs out there, but I think like many others (As Greed Monger has stated there was a lot of funding and backers who left), there is just a level of doubt. I was on board when I didn't know Appleton, let me put it that way. I was probably better off with the wool over my eyes and believing what I wanted, and when I saw the actual truth I was skeptic and doubtful. My goal here wasn't to bash your game, I never listed off any negative things about the game itself -- because it's not the game I have issues with. The game looks like it could be something, but if the management is under such a weird and odd control I don't think it's the game for me.
This thread sounds like your on a witch hunt... I don't get why people think they have the right to follow someone on every forum to post something, don't you have something better to do???
What he did was unprofessional yes, but get over it, or do not play the game or back it... I wish for once gamers would make there own games, so people can tear apart what they say or do.. I do have my degree in Game Production and more then qualified to run a buisness, as I have owned my own, .... But I would never make a MMO, because I feel people are to whiney and picky about silly things.
I rather make small scales games and have been, and work for smaller companys than deal with whiney people. I don't get why people feel that a company owes them everything. I have seen over the years DEVS be 100% honest they get bashed for it, and I have seen them lie they get bashed, I have seen them not say awhole lot they get bashed, its a tought buisness no matter how to conduct your self or do things in the gaming world, your dealing with gamers........People today are way differnt than they where 10 years ago, people today think DEVS owe them everything and for free...
I wish Jason and his team the best, and don't get caught up with people on this forum, they complain to complain about everything....
@MMORPG, this thread has offended alot of people and should of been locked a long time ago.
Originally posted by Uhwop Originally posted by Brigander No, I expected this community to know how to read a whole post, actually. I guess you, and others, failed to do that, no offense. Having a game design or game design backgound isn't required (as I am saying this now for a third time), but I PERSONALLY feel more assured if someone has a history in game design, not someone who just is doing this spontaneously out of the blue with prior projects and history of development, nor codes, models, or really does any actual developing. I am not saying that will deteremine a game's success, but I am saying that I think his lack of being in the industry shows more than his actual development team, because he's overly vocal and aggressive to the point where you can tell his level of professionalism is low, and for ME (PERSONALLY) I just am turned off by that. It makes me feel like he's not that serious about the project, that he's too reckless to really be thinking about the consequences of his actions, and those actions so far have lost him 8000+ backers. Edit: Uhwop sorry to be rude about this, but I can't keep replying to people have a failure to read past the first paragraph, good day, and good luck reading the entire thread before making a rather repetitive post that others have already touched on and been discussed. You're like the kid shows up to class late and has to be brought up to speed.
I actually read your entire post. I do get it, and don't blame you for being skeptical. Seriously, I wouldn't give the guy money, but not for your reasons.
I'm a self-taught artist, and it's not arrogance or cockiness that allows me to say that there is no kid in art school learning traditional art that knows more than me or can paint better than me just because they're in art school.
Telling anyone, I don't care how horrible they may be, that they aren't qualified without a degree is unacceptable. Saying something after the fact means little to me, when I can go to your OP and there it is.
Right this moment, the very first bullet point. "He's not qualified because he doesn't have a degree". You are wrong for writting that.
I want to comment on this, I do have a Degree and this person is corret, not everyone in this buisness have to have a degree at all... So many can be self taught and be way better, I have met people at school and at the end of there degree that can't even Model a house, which is easy as heck...... They barely know how to Unwrap a model, texture etc, now there are people who never went to school that could work circles around others without a degree..
PS, I went to school because you can learn more , and faster from being around a group of others yes, but its all about what you put into it, and alot of companys look at Portifolio's rather than a degree those are facts.
School is also a great way to make connections I started making games with people at school. and making money doing so. But can you do this outside of school yes...
Well, I did not want to support this in the first place for similar reasons.
There are all kinds of bad 'smells' all over this project.
Originally posted by hfztt Well, I did not want to support this in the first place for similar reasons. There are all kinds of bad 'smells' all over this project.
bad smells, is an understatement, so many red flags all over this, i was sceptical at first i'll admit, but after reading the OPs post, i have to wonder if this appleton guy is some kind of scam artist or something, it just sounds so dodgy. Kickstarter is probably the only chance some game developers will ever get to produce a game, it only takes a couple of scams to rake in cash from it, to turn people against it. Hope im wrong but, my gut is telling me theres something screwy there.
Thanks for your replies, I am glad there are others who see why this whole setup seemed odd.
Truth is that I can't quite put my finger on it. Sometimes things just seem uneasy and flimsy, they seem a bit suspicious and confusing. I guess that's what is how I view Greed Monger, I feel there's something off about the whole thing ever since I been researching it more. On the outside it looked great, it looked like something impressively new, but when I dug deeper I only found more questionable material that made me back out. I don't want to preach or repeat myself, I have made my points already, but the truth is that I can't pinpoint ONE issue with this project/kickstart. I think there's several small things that make me feel uneasy.
I think honestly that's how others felt too, and it's why a lot of others backed from kickstarting it. There's still a lot of unanswered questions to me. I will never accuse Jason Appleton of being a scammer, I don't believe that, but I don't know his motives. To me it just seemd very out of the blue that a MMA fighter who apparently does a lot of projects suddenly turns around and wants to develop and MMORPG and is asking for $30,000 with no background in game design. I am sorry, but looking at things with NO bias.. doesn't that seem... odd? A guy asking for $30,000 to develop a game, his very first game, having never done it before, and out of the pure blue? For some reason my mind goes back to the TV show "Lost" where Sawyer would drop a bit ol suitcase of money and and be like "Whoops, you weren't supposed to see that." I feel like they showed a lot of quickly made content they bought, mashed together on a boughten engine, and asked for money. I question really how much work was really done, and how needed the funding was.
I guess everyone has their own levels of trust, I think the whole thing just raises many questions in my head, and when I saw the video named "The Faith in Greed Monger" I thought, "Great! This is for me, because I want to know more," and I only was more upset and disturbed by the answers by Appleton, finding out more about his several jobs and careers, and how he admits he is aggressive to negative feedback.
OP is entitled to do as he pleases with his money.
I disagree with his views and will play asap. he can do as he wishes.
Honestly I just plain disagree with your "first".
From what I've seen and the people I've met in my years on this earth, there are people who "just can".
They dont' need a degree and they learn through their efforts. Case in point by the way, Yo Yo ma doesn't have a degree in cello or music.
I don't believe steve jobs or bill gates had degrees either. They just saw what they wanted to accomplish and did it. Regardless of what the naysayers say.
Quite frankly, the only thing I care about, ever is results. I don't care if you have experiene, I don't care if you went to the best schools and had the best teachers I just don't care.
I do care about the work. I've met people with higher degrees who really weren't all that impressive.
And, I've met people who never went to college who were just "that talented".
In any case, it's your money, do what you want. I generally dont' like this whole kickstarter business though I did pledge some money for Citadel of Sorcery. Afterwards, when they didn't make their ridiculoushly high goal, I was done.
If they never show anything then sure, you were right. But if you like what you see then that could tell you something.
Originally posted by wowclones The OP is doing you guys a favor by posting this. As a game developer myself, all the OP's analysis on Greed Mongers credibility is spot on. This game will never see the light of day unfortunately. I have seen too many projects like this attempt such a thing, on top of that with Unity 3d. I feel sad for all who pledged. I'd probably post the same thing but I didn't pledge nor am I naive enough to do so with my extensive background in game development. Considering he pledged before seeing that video, he has all the right to warn others. You don't ask someone how can they "prove their team is capable" and they go into their "Directv events experience", their "music background" and "MMA experience" and not even answer the question. Should be enough right there.
And which MMOs have you shipped again?
Answer this: How much experience in Space Travel do you think Elon Musk had before starting SpaceX? Some of you people need to get a grip.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Originally posted by Robokapp OP is entitled to do as he pleases with his money. I disagree with his views and will play asap. he can do as he wishes.
I would like to think I did such in a respectful manner, you realize easily many would come on here and say something short and without any proof, and just make random accusations. Say something narrow-minded like, "This game is dumb, big rip off of _____, don't bother." I don't mean to attack anyone, or anyone's game. If Greed Mongol can publicly ask others for money and funds, I think I am entitled to equally present facts and questions to the same public before they're easily glazed over by a few nice pictures and videos on boughten content. I think perhaps sometimes when you look at the cosmetics and vanity of it all, it looks great, but below the surface it may not be as great as you think.
Sorry Sovrath -- but you like a long list of others just read a short bit and not the whole thread (replies), you (again like many others) are just repeating what someone said a page back and I clarified. I would advise you actually read the whole thread and discussion before trying to join in, because right now you're just like a bump in the road saying something said awhile back that has been discussed already. Try reading more, thanks.
I agree with the OP insofar as Mr. Appleton's amateurish and unprofessional / shady conduct. To me he comes off as a complete shyster, and I personally wouldn't hand him a wooden nickel without something concrete in return.
The project looks interesting, but it's hard to see underneath all the red flags flapping in the breeze. Hopefully for all those who invested, things go well.
When the computer games industry started - NOBODY HAD EXPERIENCE AS A GAMES DEVELOPER!
Yet so many of those early games captured the essence of fun with such simple idea's and tools - how did they all do it? What was their magic secret for success? Are they time travellers who got their degree then went back to start the industry? Nope - just common guys like you and I with brilliant idea's and the will to see them to completion. Games development is the one industry where buying your degree will NOT buy your success - the other factors play a much larger role for the overall creator or creative team.
I can hire anyone to do the jobs, to manufacture the product...but only I can sustain the overall complexity and systems of the game world within my mind and guide that ship into port. Ive got a gaggle of programmers right now trying to convince me to be their creative developer. I have no formal qualifications, I havent used photoshop and 3D modellers since the mid 90's, havent written a rpg system since 92, and generally despise this generation of itech-wankers that overpopulate the industry. Yet I have what none of the professionally trained degree holders dearly want - vision, talent and creativity. I will probably pass on the project as they wont allow me to use testicular shock collars linked to the QA bug report system.
You say its apples and oranges - and in a way you are right. Except you've completely overlooked the fact you just get apples if you just hire apples. You want a fruit salad you need to hire lots of fruits. Food for thought hmmm?
Originally posted by MindTrigger And which MMOs have you shipped again? Answer this: How much experience in Space Travel do you think Elon Musk had before starting SpaceX? Some of you people need to get a grip.
Arg - Did you have to sum up my entire argument so succintly - damn you trigger!
Kickstarter is making it possible for the "little/unknown guy" to at least have a chance at producing a game in this hectic MMO(and economic) market. I personally don't care about his past employement history and his obviously vocal nature if he ends up making something worth playing, and can pay a few employees in the process. His effort to produce a game isn't hurting anyone, and I'm sure we'll be able to judge for ourselves how the game turned out after it's released without spending a penny.
I do agree with you on some points you made about how this seems to be a phase for him, and it does look like a money grab with the whole selling of land bit that was mentioned.
However, I would also like to remind you that we have been lied to 100 times over by people who seemed more up-to-the-task than this guy. I think it's a plus rather than a negative that he's showing his true colors and not hiding behind the mask of "proffesionalism".
There are two kinds of people in the world. People who make stuff happen and people who watch stuff happen.
Even if the team at GM sucks, theyre still trying to make something they may or may not want. Maybe its a cash grab but really. So what?
While they may be rushing out to get their game shipped, Im calmly taking my time before even bothering with making games. Why? Because Im a control freak and I need to get my grubby lil hands on every little detail.
PS: How do make textures? I leik...srsly dun know! I been using MS paint but my piccies look kinda bad! Look at this awesome draft i made of a d00d!
In a few months, Ill be a texture making wiz0rd!
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(")**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
I think the OP is digging too deep and forgetting some things.
From what i have seen in the game industry of late,i would be happy to see non coders or coding geeks be in charge.Also when yo uhire established CLONED producers,you are 99% most likely going to get more copy cat crap,that means nothing unique.
The assests for example,what is the difference if you hire some guys to make assests or you bu ythem from other guys who make assests?
Example if i make a building in a 3d modelling program,how is that different than if you hire someone to do it?If i create a cool looking texture and sell it to them ,it is no different than their team making it.
I can tell you flat out,that more often than not,outside people do BETTER work than dev teams because the yare not FORCED by time lines.
The first real take off game engine that had a tomn of people outside the industry making stuff was during the Unreal series.The assests that outsiders made were often far in advance of what the Epic team made.
Music scores,sounds,you can fidn a ton of people to make good ones,it doesn'tr change anything just because someone is making them under yoru roof.
Where the argument has weight is that having YOUR team make assests fo r a game,gives yo ua closer resemblance of what you want/need than trying to fit in some random stuff.
I feel the real truth in indie gaming is that they simply do not have the resources to make a great game,it woudl take them way too long.However i have just recently witnessed GW2 a game that got acclaims cut tons of corners,they basically operated liek an Indie developer by selling you half the assests the game shoudl have and half the content it should.
The problem is that an Indie developer cannot mass market and hype up their own product the way the big guys do.SO two guys selling the same quality of game ,one with marketing power will vastly outdo the small guy.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I consider myself somewhat of an expert on horse manure. Game design not so much - I guess Appleton and I have a lot in common.
And let me tell you I smell a lot of horse manure.
However, after seeing what a lot of you guys spend your money on, and get your hopes up on I'm not the least bit surprised by this thread's direction.
Originally posted by Brigander Sorry Sovrath -- but you like a long list of others just read a short bit and not the whole thread (replies), you (again like many others) are just repeating what someone said a page back and I clarified. I would advise you actually read the whole thread and discussion before trying to join in, because right now you're just like a bump in the road saying something said awhile back that has been discussed already. Try reading more, thanks.
I opened the thread, read your statment and replied. It's just that simple.
If you clarified then 'sorry I didn't wade throught the several pages to see if you even bothered."
Perhaps if your original post needs clarification you could just edit it to be more precise in your position.
Just a thought.
who cares about his experiance??? he doesnt need a degree in 3d art design or model rigging or coding he has people who have that knowledge.
bill gates and steve jobs didnt have experiance in OS coding and look at what they created (or stole whatever) when you are creating a game its not 1 person doing it (minecraft was done on java as its easy to code) you have people with skills you lack to pick up where you lack.
if you are a coder but suck at 3d design, you get someone on board who does 3d design. its not that hard to grasp.
as for appleton as a person.. who gives a shit... there are lots of egotistical rude high priced game producers that people gladly shovel money to. OP clearly does not understand what goes in to game design and assumes anyone can just wake up one morning and make their own game eng, assests ect... >>"
given how early alphaed GM is right now, i dont see a problem using bought assets and stuff they can always make their own after the game starts >>" hell blizzard does stuff like that with WoW they get the basic stuff set then upgrades them later.
if you dont want to back it fine. (i dont do kickstarter stuff as i have no gurrentee of a game i want when its done) complaining because the guy in charge of the idea is just a game and no experiance scrubbing toilets is just stupid.
some of the best indy games are made by gamers with little to no experiance in coding >>"
as a gamer i hope GM takes off, cause frankly right now its one of a few games that are actually unique and not cloning crap from WoW..
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