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The amount of people who settle for Instanced PvP Trash simply amazes me.

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  • JonokuJonoku Cool, PAPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Laughing-man

    World PVP = Griefing.  

    Its as simple as that, you can argue the value of it all day long but 90% of the time all you will encounter in a game with open world PVP is griefing. 

     

    Go to a PvE server, problem solved.

    Looking at: The Repopulation
    Preordering: None
    Playing: Random Games

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by maplestone

    As a non-PvPer, the one thing that I enjoyed in Eve was the news.  The slowly-shifting strategic balance between various player factions and empires gave the game a texture, gave the economy moods and a added a sense of purpose to all the grinds.  That slow mutation of the large-scale state of the game is something that battlegrounds don't give, 

    (That said, I'm not currently playing Eve - as much as I liked the news and shifting obstacles/opportunities, I'm not interesting in being live target practice)

    And i doubt many players play a MMO to read news instead of killing some stuff.

    Even on a MMOFPS like PS2, there is no slowly drifting strategic balance. Thing changes pretty fast, and it is merely a backdrop to kill more players in the other factions.

    To that regard, PS2 is more like a battleground than Eve.

  • JonokuJonoku Cool, PAPosts: 645Member
    Theres more enjoyable PvP on the forums then in-game nowadays.

    Looking at: The Repopulation
    Preordering: None
    Playing: Random Games

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Asuran
    No the use of a timer is redundant in wow. Why not let lwg run all the time and let players decide when to enter and leave.
  • Skeeter50Skeeter50 summerville, GAPosts: 147Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You need both. Instanced pvp by itself is a huge design fail.

     

    Swtor, TSW, and GW2 are all suffering because they decided to leave Wpvp out. 

    I have been playing swtor for a week on a pvp server, and it has open world pvp planets starting at lvl 22.

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member
    Originally posted by Laughing-man

    World PVP = Griefing.  

    Its as simple as that, you can argue the value of it all day long but 90% of the time all you will encounter in a game with open world PVP is griefing. 

     

    UO...LINEAGE 2...DAoC....Shadowbane.....shall I continue? All successful games with strong communities. More successful than a lot of games today. Hell Lineage 2 is still one of the most profitable games on the market. 

    Also....Griefing is not exclusive to PvP as SO many of you are inclined the think. There are numerous ways to grief in a PVE strict game and have seen it time and time again. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • JonokuJonoku Cool, PAPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by Skeeter50
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You need both. Instanced pvp by itself is a huge design fail.

     

    Swtor, TSW, and GW2 are all suffering because they decided to leave Wpvp out. 

    I have been playing swtor for a week on a pvp server, and it has open world pvp planets starting at lvl 22.

    Do you see any people around? did you enjoy the engine while experiencing 48v48? if you didn't experience any of that we consider OPvP to be non-existent in swtor. Why do you think people left swtor?

    Looking at: The Repopulation
    Preordering: None
    Playing: Random Games

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member
    Originally posted by Jonoku
    Originally posted by Skeeter50
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You need both. Instanced pvp by itself is a huge design fail.

     

    Swtor, TSW, and GW2 are all suffering because they decided to leave Wpvp out. 

    I have been playing swtor for a week on a pvp server, and it has open world pvp planets starting at lvl 22.

    Do you see any people around? did you enjoy the engine while experiencing 48v48? if you didn't experience any of that we consider OPvP to be non-existent in swtor. Why do you think people left swtor?

    Along with what Jonoku said:

    Depends on the world. Tatooine, Hoth, Voss are examples of planets with decent world design that allowed you to cross paths with the other faction naturally. While most of the others you have to actively seek it out and are likely to not run into them even when you do that, because the faction area's are segregated and only the elite mission area's are shared. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by Vunak23

    Hell Lineage 2 is still one of the most profitable games on the market. 

    Doesn't say much for the market...

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by Vunak23

    Hell Lineage 2 is still one of the most profitable games on the market. 

    Doesn't say much for the market...

    Your right it says a lot. That games with deep systems and design aspects are wanted by a large margin of players still today. 

    Sure Lineage 2 had its issues (the grind, movement mechanics, and bots being the primary), but it was and still is a very well designed game, with complex systems, meaningful PvP (sieges/territory control) and difficult PvE with world bosses that were great hotspots for PvEers and PvPers alike. 

     

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • BookahBookah Bar Harbor, MEPosts: 259Member

    We were all very sad When Aion (NC soft) buckled to presure and restircted open world pvp via their rifting concept.

    That said AIon still contains many zone's that are full pvp and a lot of open world pvp still takes place

    image
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,754Member Uncommon
    You are saying that Aion changes its pvp areas? How did that work out? I know they opened these random rifts which could take you into the other factions zones. That did seem a bit dodgy and well random. So how does it play now?
  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Laughing-man

    World PVP = Griefing.  

    Its as simple as that, you can argue the value of it all day long but 90% of the time all you will encounter in a game with open world PVP is griefing. 

     

    That is quite simply untrue for the vast majority. Unless ofc you either have some odd idea as to what exactly constitutes "griefing", or you are just prone to hyperbole.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Jonoku
    Originally posted by Skeeter50 Originally posted by bcbully You need both. Instanced pvp by itself is a huge design fail.   Swtor, TSW, and GW2 are all suffering because they decided to leave Wpvp out. 
    I have been playing swtor for a week on a pvp server, and it has open world pvp planets starting at lvl 22.
    Do you see any people around? did you enjoy the engine while experiencing 48v48? if you didn't experience any of that we consider OPvP to be non-existent in swtor. Why do you think people left swtor?


    There is a long list of reasons people left SWToR. OWPvP is pretty far down the list. I would go so far as to say that OWPvP is not a major factor in any game's success or failure unless that game uses it as a primary game play mechanic.

    In games where players can choose between PvE servers and PvP servers, more people choose PvE servers and the PvE servers are more populated. More people choose PvE with optional PvP. They aren't forced into that, it's what they want.

    It's just not that important.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Instanced arena PvP in mmorpg's will lose to dedicated lobby pvp games.   It already started and it will just accelerate.  That will also mean that overall mmorpg popularity will drop.   Does not have to be bad thing medium / long-term.   Short-term it might be painful.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Laughing-man World PVP = Griefing.   Its as simple as that, you can argue the value of it all day long but 90% of the time all you will encounter in a game with open world PVP is griefing.   
    That is quite simply untrue for the vast majority. Unless ofc you either have some odd idea as to what exactly constitutes "griefing", or you are just prone to hyperbole.


    It doesn't have to happen to even half the people for it to be a basic problem with the game mechanic. It could take as little as 10% of the population experiencing "griefing", however they define it for the idea of griefing to exist and take hold. Actually, 10% of the population doesn't even have to experience "griefing", they just have to accept that it exists. For a lot of players, just the idea of griefing existing is enough for them to not even try playing on a PvP server. They may enjoy PvP, but getting "griefed" isn't what they want.

    Which is really what it comes down to. Everyone here can argue as much as they want about what's "better", but there is no "better". That argument can't be won. There's only what people want and what they'll pay for. PvE content with optional or non-existent PvP is what the majority of people want, and what they'll pay for.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    But its not like a binary thing.
    Either a huge pve world with pvp ghetoed off into a couple of little boxes or a ffa kill anyone anywhere setup.

    You can have in-between approaches.

    For me the daoc approach of pve areas of the world and pvp areas of the world with objectives and resources to fight for works best for themeparks

    And the eve approach of varying degrees of security and using the economy as a pvp driver works best for sandboxes (contrary to popular belief it is possible to play eve and send 99.999% of your time in pve)

    There is no need to have instances and offer a token sub par take on lol as your pvp.

    You can design your game world to cater to different types of players on different areas.
    E.g. you have a game with 4 factions.
    The world consists of a number of islands.
    There is a pve island for each faction
    There is a shared pve island for all factions where they put assure their differences
    There are 2 islands with daoc / planetside style pvp
    There is a renegade island where players do gvg / ffa pvp.

    All out in the world, no need for frikin instanced bollox, which we've all established is much better done by non mmos like lol, dota, csgo, Tf2 etc..
  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    ...It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces...

    ...Or people enjoy it for what it is and don't get all hung on a game and do not try forcing others to adhere to a certain mindset.

     

    Open PvP or structured PvP...it is still PvP. You just happen to prefer 1 type over the other, others don't.

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    ...It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces...

    ...Or people enjoy it for what it is and don't get all hung on a game and do not try forcing others to adhere to a certain mindset.

     

    Open PvP or structured PvP...it is still PvP. You just happen to prefer 1 type over the other, others don't.

    I am of the belief that people who enjoy PVP but don't enjoy OWPVP, are those that haven't experienced true OWPVP. 100v100 or Guild V Guild. Having two massive RAIDS clash over claim to a mob etc. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    ...It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces...

    ...Or people enjoy it for what it is and don't get all hung on a game and do not try forcing others to adhere to a certain mindset.

     

    Open PvP or structured PvP...it is still PvP. You just happen to prefer 1 type over the other, others don't.

    I agree here - it is a POTATO / PATATOE type of thing. You like open world PvP - have fun. You like Instanced PvP - have fun. There is no right or wrong in this situation except in one's own mind.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by Maelwydd Originally posted by mmoDAD ...It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces...
    ...Or people enjoy it for what it is and don't get all hung on a game and do not try forcing others to adhere to a certain mindset.   Open PvP or structured PvP...it is still PvP. You just happen to prefer 1 type over the other, others don't.
    I am of the belief that people who enjoy PVP but don't enjoy OWPVP, are those that haven't experienced true OWPVP. 100v100 or Guild V Guild. Having two massive RAIDS clash over claim to a mob etc. 


    That's not "true" OWPvP. That's structured PvP that can happen in the open world. OWPvP is any sort of PvP that happens in the open world. There is no "false" OWPvP.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member

    Players that call open world PvP a gank fest, are mostly soloers from what I have seen.

    They love to face roll players with their uber gear they spent weeks grinding for. But, if they run into any resistance from an organized group, they scream for nerfs.

    The OP is right, the state of PvP in all MMOs is a joke. So I have moved on to MMOFPS games like Planetside 2. It may not be a real MMO, but at least it has world PvP, that is group orientated for once.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Asuran
    No the use of a timer is redundant in wow. Why not let lwg run all the time and let players decide when to enter and leave.

    Because of the victory conditions.

    In a game like PS2 with no timer, there is no "winning" or "losing". The whole battle is always in flux.

    I don't see one to be better than the other, just a preference. Do you want a system that can say "you win" at some point? You pick the WOW system.

    If you just want to continue to battle, PS2 is the pick.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by Laughing-man
    That is quite simply untrue for the vast majority. Unless ofc you either have some odd idea as to what exactly constitutes "griefing", or you are just prone to hyperbole.

    It doesn't have to happen to even half the people for it to be a basic problem with the game mechanic. It could take as little as 10% of the population experiencing "griefing", however they define it for the idea of griefing to exist and take hold. Actually, 10% of the population doesn't even have to experience "griefing", they just have to accept that it exists. For a lot of players, just the idea of griefing existing is enough for them to not even try playing on a PvP server. They may enjoy PvP, but getting "griefed" isn't what they want.

    Which is really what it comes down to. Everyone here can argue as much as they want about what's "better", but there is no "better". That argument can't be won. There's only what people want and what they'll pay for. PvE content with optional or non-existent PvP is what the majority of people want, and what they'll pay for.

     

    I know that people can grief other people in PVE mmos by constantly harrassing them in chat, I accept that exists and as such I refuse to ever play a PVE mmo and I will come on to these forums and post some complete bullshit "90% of the time PVE griefzors" comment. That someone, somewhere is being griefed in a PVE mmo makes it as clear as day that there is a fundamental issue with PVE mmos.

     

    It is rather important how you define griefing btw. Vital in fact.

     

    As for the second part of your post, I generally agree. "Better" is subjective.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by Laughing-man
    That is quite simply untrue for the vast majority. Unless ofc you either have some odd idea as to what exactly constitutes "griefing", or you are just prone to hyperbole.

    It doesn't have to happen to even half the people for it to be a basic problem with the game mechanic. It could take as little as 10% of the population experiencing "griefing", however they define it for the idea of griefing to exist and take hold. Actually, 10% of the population doesn't even have to experience "griefing", they just have to accept that it exists. For a lot of players, just the idea of griefing existing is enough for them to not even try playing on a PvP server. They may enjoy PvP, but getting "griefed" isn't what they want.

    Which is really what it comes down to. Everyone here can argue as much as they want about what's "better", but there is no "better". That argument can't be won. There's only what people want and what they'll pay for. PvE content with optional or non-existent PvP is what the majority of people want, and what they'll pay for.

     

    I know that people can grief other people in PVE mmos by constantly harrassing them in chat, I accept that exists and as such I refuse to ever play a PVE mmo and I will come on to these forums and post some complete bullshit "90% of the time PVE griefzors" comment. That someone, somewhere is being griefed in a PVE mmo makes it as clear as day that there is a fundamental issue with PVE mmos.

     

    It is rather important how you define griefing btw. Vital in fact.

     

    As for the second part of your post, I generally agree. "Better" is subjective.

    Most MMO's have ingnore lists - if you are getting harrassed - use it. If it continues, use the report system. It is a non-issue in PvE any more with chat. That is not griefing to me - that is just immature.

     

    PvP griefing is more insidious in  nature.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

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