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What's the difference between any game in multiplayer mode and a themepark mmo's endgame?

If we look at typical themeparks mmo in its endgame, we only see players waiting in "lobbies" (cities, entrances to dungeons, etc) to join a "match" with others in a enviroment completely separated from the rest. In this case, what's the difference between these mmo's endgame and a normal single-player game in multiplayer mode? I particularly cant see any, since most modern single-player games also incorporate elements of player "progression" in their multiplayer modes.

Anyone could cite more differences that can allow us to define which game is or isn't a mmo?

 

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

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Comments

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    If we look at typical themeparks mmo in its endgame, we only see players waiting in "lobbies" (cities, entrances to dungeons, etc) to join a "match" with others in a enviroment completely separated from the rest. In this case, what's the difference between these mmo's endgame and a normal single-player game in multiplayer mode? I particularly cant see any, since most modern single-player games also incorporate elements of player "progression" in their multiplayer modes.

    Anyone could cite more differences that can allow us to define which game is or isn't a mmo?

     

    MMOs often require you to schedule your life around grouping for the top content(raids or rated pvp).  Most multiplayer games allow you to play whenever you want, assuming enough people play the game at the same time as you.

     

    MMOs are generally loot based.  Most multiplayer games are simply about having fun.

     

    MMO PVP many times have unfair gear advantages for some players.  Most non MMOs don't do that, they are almost totally built on player skill.

     

    Good MMOs don't make you wait in lobbies, they allow you to queue for dungeons/pvp while being anywhere and doing anything.  Only crappy ones make you sit in the zone of the instance itself spamming for groups.

     

    Both have a fair amount of epeen involved.

     

     

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Agree with op most themepark games at end game are no different to diablo or something

    There are exceptions though - both planetsides, daoc, eq, gw2 probably a few others.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
     

     

    MMOs often require you to schedule your life around grouping for the top content(raids or rated pvp).  Most multiplayer games allow you to play whenever you want, assuming enough people play the game at the same time as you.

     Not anymore. Hit the LFR or LFD button, and you can have a group on YOUR schedule.

    MMOs are generally loot based.  Most multiplayer games are simply about having fun.

     Not ARPGs. Diablo, TL, ... are all about loot. And loot *is* fun. Killing is also fun.

    MMO PVP many times have unfair gear advantages for some players.  Most non MMOs don't do that, they are almost totally built on player skill.

    Not true for all the F2P FPS shooter like Planetside 2, ARMA 2 ... you can get better guns leveling up. Whether the advantage is fair or not, is a matter of perspective.

     

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Agree with op most themepark games at end game are no different to diablo or something

    There are exceptions though - both planetsides, daoc, eq, gw2 probably a few others.

    That is convergence. Devs are taking good featuers from other genre. And there is nothing wrong with it.

    Even planetside 2 (which i like) .. is not a "proper" MMO. It is essentially FPS with huge zones and the game is always ongoing.

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,601Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by maccarthur2004
    If we look at typical themeparks mmo in its endgame, we only see players waiting in "lobbies" (cities, entrances to dungeons, etc) to join a "match" with others in a enviroment completely separated from the rest. In this case, what's the difference between these mmo's endgame and a normal single-player game in multiplayer mode? I particularly cant see any, since most modern single-player games also incorporate elements of player "progression" in their multiplayer modes.Anyone could cite more differences that can allow us to define which game is or isn't a mmo?    
    If these people choose to wait in the cities until an instance group is available then that is their choice.


    How these people choose to play an MMO has no bearing on the MMO however and does not mean that the MMO they play is not an MMO.


    With that reasoning I could say that Halo doesnt have multiplayer because I choose to only do the single player. Just because I choose to ignore it does not mean it doesnt exist.


    In closing this is a bad "themeparks suck" thread.

  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    Yeah in truth it is the player choosing to sit waiting for a group in a location, just as much pre or post lfg/lfd you could search while questing/pvping/exploring. Also just as much in a game with lfg/lfd you have people sitting in cities (alot of the time for social reason, or just to have fun with chat while they wait.). Alot of hwo a mmo plays out is kinda in the court of the player, if you sit waiting for ques while not playing the game, than that is your choice yet just as the other player might be out pvp/questing/exploring. Never liked lfg/lfd as i preefered the much more social feel of pre-lfg/fd mmos, as now alot of the game has come down to people expecting an also relagating back to being voice-less minions in a single player game. It is really not the game/mmo that is the issues at the heart, but the player really in many ways.
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    One clear definition I've drawn for myself is, if you can play it offline, its not an MMO. Usually the definitions given by the posters here in mmorpg.com are more or less subjective, but the one I just stated is not.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    It's a combination of the setting and the people in the setting. An MMORPG has a persistent, shared world where players who are not waiting for raids do things that have nothing to do with the raiding players. A lobby can be persistent, but it's not a shared world. A lobby is the equivalent of the login screen to an MMORPG, where the player picks the server they log into.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    It's a combination of the setting and the people in the setting. An MMORPG has a persistent, shared world where players who are not waiting for raids do things that have nothing to do with the raiding players. A lobby can be persistent, but it's not a shared world. A lobby is the equivalent of the login screen to an MMORPG, where the player picks the server they log into.

    What about cross server functions then? WOW is going to have cross server grouping .. so the toons do not necessarily share a persistent world. So does that feature make WOW not a MMO?

    Personally i think any stringent definition is not very useful. I don't care about what is a MMO or what is not. I care about if a game is good. If a feature i like turn a MMO into one that is not, by some rigid definition, i wouldn't care less.

    The other way is also true. I like that D3 has a AH, which is pretty much a MMO featutre in a online MP game.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
     

     

    MMOs often require you to schedule your life around grouping for the top content(raids or rated pvp).  Most multiplayer games allow you to play whenever you want, assuming enough people play the game at the same time as you.

     Not anymore. Hit the LFR or LFD button, and you can have a group on YOUR schedule.

    MMOs are generally loot based.  Most multiplayer games are simply about having fun.

     Not ARPGs. Diablo, TL, ... are all about loot. And loot *is* fun. Killing is also fun.

    MMO PVP many times have unfair gear advantages for some players.  Most non MMOs don't do that, they are almost totally built on player skill.

    Not true for all the F2P FPS shooter like Planetside 2, ARMA 2 ... you can get better guns leveling up. Whether the advantage is fair or not, is a matter of perspective.

     

    1) Learn the meaning of the word "most".  Multiplayer games include, but are not limited to, the massively popular FPS, RTS, MOBA and sports games.  That's where most players play online. 

     

    2) ARPGs are a small portion of the multiplayer spectrum

     

    3) LFD/LFR don't get you BiS gear or have the most challenging content, which was my point.

     

    4) True esports don't give any players/teams an advantage

     

     

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    One clear definition I've drawn for myself is, if you can play it offline, its not an MMO. Usually the definitions given by the posters here in mmorpg.com are more or less subjective, but the one I just stated is not.

    That difference is not enough to allow a player that wants to play a mmo or a no-mmo multiplayer game to do the choice, since his gameplay experience will be virtually the same. We need a better definition that can distinguish the gameplay experience itself.

     

     

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

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  • MyriaMyria Lowell, MAPosts: 570Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    If we look at typical themeparks mmo in its endgame, we only see players waiting in "lobbies" (cities, entrances to dungeons, etc) to join a "match" with others in a enviroment completely separated from the rest.

    Do you have any actual evidence for this, or are you just pulling out yet another mindless talking point to parrot because you think it "proves" your point?

    Because in my experience it's pure BS. Most people do dailies, gather crafting mats, level alts, and do a hundred other things that occur out in the game world -- especially in games that have an LFG that actually works and allows you to queue for a group without having to stand around in a city spamming chat.

    In my experience the whole "everyone just stands around in cities" sounds a lot more like projection by bored MMO burn outs than what most of the playerbase actually does.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    One clear definition I've drawn for myself is, if you can play it offline, its not an MMO. Usually the definitions given by the posters here in mmorpg.com are more or less subjective, but the one I just stated is not.

    That difference is not enough to allow a player that wants to play a mmo or a no-mmo multiplayer game to do the choice, since his gameplay experience will be virtually the same. We need a better definition that can distinguish the gameplay experience itself.

     

     

    We don't. I highly doubt a player specifically want to play a non-MMO MP game, or a MMO based on the stringent definition. Players will look at individual games and see if they are fun or not.

    I don't care if a game is MMO or not, if it is fun. I play MMOs, online action RPG, MMOFPS, SP FPS ... the actual distinction between genre is irrelevant.

    Now play-style is relevant. If i want to jump in and run a dungeon, both Diablo 3 (not a MMO) or WOW (a MMO) can satisfy that gameplay need.

  • django-djangodjango-django ElthamPosts: 115Member

     

    Your typical theme park MMO will have a persistent world were you can multitask for example crafting or exploring whilst you queue for a dungeon. People who go into cities just to wait for PVP matches or raids are people who are only interested in PVP or raiding which is fine. There is a lot of variety and a lot more people doing different things in an MMO.

    Everyone playing Call of Duty are either waiting for a game to start or already playing one. There is no choice to go "explore" Call of Duty maps whilst interacting with other players who may be questing or crafting. 

    There is a huge difference between the two, there is simply just a lot of variety in MMO's and you will see people sitting in cities waiting for PVP or raids as if they were in a game lobby, but you will also see many other people running through that same city with other objectives.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    If we look at typical themeparks mmo in its endgame, we only see players waiting in "lobbies" (cities, entrances to dungeons, etc) to join a "match" with others in a enviroment completely separated from the rest. In this case, what's the difference between these mmo's endgame and a normal single-player game in multiplayer mode? I particularly cant see any, since most modern single-player games also incorporate elements of player "progression" in their multiplayer modes.

    Anyone could cite more differences that can allow us to define which game is or isn't a mmo?

     

     

     

     

    There is no fundamental diffrence between playing end-game consisted of grinding dunegons and arenas especially but not limited to through cross-server matchmaking systems and between using matchmaking systems in multiplayer games like Battlefield 3, Diablo 3, League of Legends, DDO or Vindictus. 

     

    Only diffrence is that mmorpg lobby is more graphical and have mino-games in forms od daily quests or simple crafting avabile to do while you wait.

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member

    Well that's pretty much it OP.

     

    Typical modern MMOs aren't really virtual worlds.  When I first started playing UO, i saw the genre evolving from there..  But now I am disappointed.  From my perspective, MMOs nowadays are just glorified multiplayer games.  Instanced everything.  No depth. 

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    One clear definition I've drawn for myself is, if you can play it offline, its not an MMO. Usually the definitions given by the posters here in mmorpg.com are more or less subjective, but the one I just stated is not.

    That difference is not enough to allow a player that wants to play a mmo or a no-mmo multiplayer game to do the choice, since his gameplay experience will be virtually the same. We need a better definition that can distinguish the gameplay experience itself.

     

     

    I think Frodo up there did a good job of explaining some of the differences, but you skipped right over his response.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    does it matter?  they are just games. 

    Is there a rule that people can not play lobby game? 

  • BrueskieBrueskie London, KYPosts: 42Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by redcapp Well that's pretty much it OP.   Typical modern MMOs aren't really virtual worlds.  When I first started playing UO, i saw the genre evolving from there..  But now I am disappointed.  From my perspective, MMOs nowadays are just glorified multiplayer games.  Instanced everything.  No depth. 
    I started playing UO in 1998. At the time, I thought newer games would continue down the virtual world path. It seemed natural given the climate at the time. We had movies like The Matrix and The Thirteenth Floor, which envisioned a future with realistic virtual worlds. I naively thought developers would continue to challenge themselves in that direction. I had been playing regular ol' games since I was a kid on the NES. MMORPGs were a completely new and exciting thing—a whole different beast which was a promising early view of things to come. Alas, it was short-lived promise. What's new is old again.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by lizardbones It's a combination of the setting and the people in the setting. An MMORPG has a persistent, shared world where players who are not waiting for raids do things that have nothing to do with the raiding players. A lobby can be persistent, but it's not a shared world. A lobby is the equivalent of the login screen to an MMORPG, where the player picks the server they log into.
    What about cross server functions then? WOW is going to have cross server grouping .. so the toons do not necessarily share a persistent world. So does that feature make WOW not a MMO?

    Personally i think any stringent definition is not very useful. I don't care about what is a MMO or what is not. I care about if a game is good. If a feature i like turn a MMO into one that is not, by some rigid definition, i wouldn't care less.

    The other way is also true. I like that D3 has a AH, which is pretty much a MMO featutre in a online MP game.




    The toons have a persistent world. When they travel to a dungeon, they are traveling to an instance that isn't part of the world anyway, so it doesn't matter if people who show up are from a different server.

    Let's move on to the next pointless 'reason' that games like WoW are really just lobby based shooters. What about cross server realms? Doesn't that mean the toon doesn't have a persistent world? No, it doesn't. The toon still has a persistent world. It doesn't matter if that zone is shared between servers, the world is still persistent and the activities have nothing to do with the people raiding or the raids themselves.

    This, like many threads on this site is a stupid discussion. That isn't aimed at you Nariusseldon, it's just an observation in general. There are obvious differences between games like D3, WoW and CoD. People who can't tell the difference don't care (and are happy, I'm sure), stupid (and angry apparently) or trying to start another pointless discussion on MMORPG.com where lots of people will oblige them.

    It's not like we're discussing how WoW's end game feels like you're just playing a variation of a lobby based shooter. That would actually be a discussion that had a point. We could talk about how yes, there is a world outside of the raid, but that world becomes meaningless once you start raiding. Maybe we could discuss that it's like that because gamers have gotten used to and prefer the lobby based system, but like to see it in a different setting. Those are things you can discuss. No, we're here coming up actual reasons why WoW's end game is indistinguishable from lobby games because somebody doesn't like theme park games or raiding. I haven't read the whole thread but there's going to be a sandbox comment somewhere and a comment on how developers are lazy. I'm sure there's going to be a comment that starts with, "It's so simple, all developers need to do is..."

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    One clear definition I've drawn for myself is, if you can play it offline, its not an MMO. Usually the definitions given by the posters here in mmorpg.com are more or less subjective, but the one I just stated is not.

    Problem is that sadly this is changing in the wrong direction.

    You have to be logged in to steam to play civ 5.

    You have to be logged in to battle.net to play D3 and SC2. 

    This never used to be the case for 'single player' games, like the predecessors to the games I mentioned. 

    Your objective line in the sand is getting muddier unfortunately.

  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 981Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

    MMOs often require you to schedule your life around grouping for the top content(raids or rated pvp).  Most multiplayer games allow you to play whenever you want, assuming enough people play the game at the same time as you.

     

     

    Good MMOs don't make you wait in lobbies, they allow you to queue for dungeons/pvp while being anywhere and doing anything.  Only crappy ones make you sit in the zone of the instance itself spamming for groups.

     

    Both have a fair amount of epeen involved.

     

     

    Mode good MMOs dont make you sit in the zone of an stance spamming for groups.  Well guess what Mr. FrodoFragins your the type that should never step foot in an MMO.  Seriously Never once had I had to sit and spam more than 5 minutes in WoW prior to LFG.  Why?  Because I am a REAL MMO player.  First if I EVER had to Spam a channel after the 2 to 3 months on a server in WoW I did something wrong.  I made friends I added these friends to my friends list, I always kept in contact with these friends weather it was running an instance once a month with them or helping them out when they asked it of me.  I had 50+ friends on my friends list that I could message at any time and get help.  If I did have to spam guess what my name was well known as a good player that would help out.  So people who know of me from friends or guildmates always had a positive thing to say. 

    Second I also picked a server which its population peak time Matched mine.  I wouldnt roll on a PST server as a EST player unless I played at 11pm ET or later.  So I was not sitting on servers which were at low population times

    Third I also always made friends in my guild and setup events ahead of time.  Yes it required me to say hey guys Saturday at 7pm lets get together and run Strat.  Everyone would be like k kewl we will be there.  They all played the same general time as me.  

     

    Something WANNBE MMO players who like you think that bad games dont have queues do not or will never understand.  MMOs are made for people who want to play with other people and will be social with other people.  Not play for some Dam tool to put you into a group.  Yes the tool is nice on a server only bases so if you are newer to the game and have 3 or 4 friends wanting to run group content will help you find that 1 extra person.  The tool is not their for you to endlessly queue and be a lump on a log.   MMOs were not created for Lobby game players who think that GIVE ME IT RIGHT NOW is the right attitude.  MMOs are meant to be social and for people to make friends in, not be played with no respects other people around you.  

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  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 981Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by lizardbones It's a combination of the setting and the people in the setting. An MMORPG has a persistent, shared world where players who are not waiting for raids do things that have nothing to do with the raiding players. A lobby can be persistent, but it's not a shared world. A lobby is the equivalent of the login screen to an MMORPG, where the player picks the server they log into.
    What about cross server functions then? WOW is going to have cross server grouping .. so the toons do not necessarily share a persistent world. So does that feature make WOW not a MMO?

     

    Personally i think any stringent definition is not very useful. I don't care about what is a MMO or what is not. I care about if a game is good. If a feature i like turn a MMO into one that is not, by some rigid definition, i wouldn't care less.

    The other way is also true. I like that D3 has a AH, which is pretty much a MMO featutre in a online MP game.



    The toons have a persistent world. When they travel to a dungeon, they are traveling to an instance that isn't part of the world anyway, so it doesn't matter if people who show up are from a different server.

    Let's move on to the next pointless 'reason' that games like WoW are really just lobby based shooters. What about cross server realms? Doesn't that mean the toon doesn't have a persistent world? No, it doesn't. The toon still has a persistent world. It doesn't matter if that zone is shared between servers, the world is still persistent and the activities have nothing to do with the people raiding or the raids themselves.

    This, like many threads on this site is a stupid discussion. That isn't aimed at you Nariusseldon, it's just an observation in general. There are obvious differences between games like D3, WoW and CoD. People who can't tell the difference don't care (and are happy, I'm sure), stupid (and angry apparently) or trying to start another pointless discussion on MMORPG.com where lots of people will oblige them.

    It's not like we're discussing how WoW's end game feels like you're just playing a variation of a lobby based shooter. That would actually be a discussion that had a point. We could talk about how yes, there is a world outside of the raid, but that world becomes meaningless once you start raiding. Maybe we could discuss that it's like that because gamers have gotten used to and prefer the lobby based system, but like to see it in a different setting. Those are things you can discuss. No, we're here coming up actual reasons why WoW's end game is indistinguishable from lobby games because somebody doesn't like theme park games or raiding. I haven't read the whole thread but there's going to be a sandbox comment somewhere and a comment on how developers are lazy. I'm sure there's going to be a comment that starts with, "It's so simple, all developers need to do is..."

     

    There are some good arugement points here.  Yes the world becomes meaningless after someone starts raiding.  Thats why fewer and fewer people go into instances.  Also WoW went to get more subscriptions as a way of being greedy, so they went towards a Lobby based game so types of gamers would come into the game.  Most MMO players prior to a LFG tool had long list of friends, in my case 50+.  I was also well known on my server as a decent tank or healer.  I made many friend, and guildmates of thoughs friends always said yes run with him, just dont be stupid.  Again I believe the MMO community has become daluted too much.  

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  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    The only real difference is that combat in normal multiplayer games are usually better, because they're not hobbled by an entire MMO engine.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones


    The toons have a persistent world. When they travel to a dungeon, they are traveling to an instance that isn't part of the world anyway, so it doesn't matter if people who show up are from a different server.

    Let's move on to the next pointless 'reason' that games like WoW are really just lobby based shooters. What about cross server realms? Doesn't that mean the toon doesn't have a persistent world? No, it doesn't. The toon still has a persistent world. It doesn't matter if that zone is shared between servers, the world is still persistent and the activities have nothing to do with the people raiding or the raids themselves.


     

    If you only spend 10% of your toon in that persistent world, does it count?

    At the end, while i am sure there are logical differences, there is little in terms of gameplay. I can play WOW, exactly the same way i play Diablo 3, and group with players all across the world.

    And the persistency of the WOW world affect you little. The only persistency that matters is your toon, which is also persistent in Diablo 3, WOT, and many other non-world online games.

    What if instead of a menu for a lobby, D3 implemented a virtual world lobby that you can see the other toons in 3D. Does that make it a MMO?

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