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No Luv for the healers?

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Comments

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical.

    The biggest problem with Trinity combat is the tank part, not the healer part.  Or more to the point, that mobs use an aggro system to determine who they attack, so that success in combat is primarily about tricking mobs into behaving in extraordinarily stupid ways.

    You should try Vindictus, the game has no aggro whatsoever, the mob can attack anyone, there is no tank in the game, no way to daw aggro.

    The game is also a zergfest without any teamwork or socialising whatsoever.

    All the games that did not use the trinity models have for me been zergfests, sorry if I'm not jumping at the thought of removing the trinity model for solo fests.

  • cheyanecheyane Rome Posts: 3,002Member Uncommon
    I think that is trinity based games the people playing a healer or tank feel very challenged and fullfilled whereas the dpsers don't have much to feel good about. They do not get the same sense of thrill of having carreid a fight and seeing how much they have contributed because much of the burden is on the tank and healer. This creates a resentment and anger and belittleing by the dps classes caused by jealousy because they do not want to heal or tank but want that same sense of achievement.

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  • RimmersmanRimmersman MonacoPosts: 885Member
    Originally posted by LhynnSaint
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Snip

    Age of Wushu is handling it really well.

    And its actually quite simple, you make players a lot tougher, you make some of the damage they take and deal incurable, and you make them being able to get out of the fight without taking damage too much damage, or being able to recover if they go in the defensive.

    You fuck up, youll probably die, you dont, youll probably live. You have player characters have certain sinergies, you dont force them to work together, you reward them for doing so, and the better they work together the smoother it will all be.

    you make players need eachother outside of combat  as well, and you make them grow outside of combat. when all you do is fight it stops being special. crafting is as good a mean as any to achieve that.

    Swotor almost did it right. Had it only given everyone a single crew skill, global for your account, it would have stimulated interaction a great deal.

    Im not saying "get rid of the trinity", just saying, a lot of games would benefit from not having it. Simply because people need diferent flavors. so you dont feel like you are playing the same game with different graphic style.

     

    Variety is good.

    Yup, anyone who has not played this game and likes their MMOs to have depth and no hand holding really needs to play the next beta. For some reason MMORPG.COM is not really promoting the game other than an odd mention, they didn't even play the beta that has just gone.

     

    They made an odd mention about a feature they have heard about but not even tried, i guess devs need to cough up some cash before they get real coverage on these gaming sites.

     

    Away from that i still like the trinity system though.

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  • RandomDownRandomDown Louisville, KYPosts: 145Member

    I personally like the trinity+ as well. Also I always found DPSers to actually be kind of divas if they thought they were good at it. Then again all the roles get those people, they just strike me as the most vocal usually. 

     

    A lot of people on these forums want less solo-centric MMOs and the trinity provides that by giving dependence to complete content but I suppose they want a different system to be the impetus behind the grouping. 

    I play GW2 but I don't particularly like the rolelessness of the dungeons. The aggro pinballing and how the group functions always makes it seem like a subpar experience to me, though I do like the game as a whole.

  • ComanComan Hattem, AKPosts: 2,034Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    I think you miss the point.. classless roles are there for a reason... its more "realistic" no medical technician has the ability in real life or fantasy  to make someone completely healthy in like ten seconds while in combat... combat is boring and requires little movement or maneuvering.. in real life thats not the case... gw2 and other games are more realistic... therefore a healer is not necessary.

    Realism is it? Ok, let's have amputees and dead is dead... and no fireballs coming out your fingers either... scratch magic... and super stealth in well-lit open places... forget assassins (no great loss there :) ) realism is a slippery slope. Let's talk gameplay and game systems not realism please.

    You can have realism in a fantasy setting. It not a slippery slope at all. Having someone go completly stealthy and have people shoot fireball from there fingers is not unrealistic in a fantasty setting. Now having a human fall from a big distance without something (magical of phisical) catching him and he does not die is also in a fantasy setting unrealistic

    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    if it fits within the lore its real.... if you can show me an ip with instant perfect health than it is viable.

    I do not understand what you mean. So a gaming company has to wait for a book to come out before it can create it own lore where it possible or something? Games are lore on there own. Anyhow you want lore to make instant healing viable. Read the bible or other religious lore and a lot of poeple (billions?) actually believe it to be true and possible. 

     

  • RandomDownRandomDown Louisville, KYPosts: 145Member
    You could actually just point to all the EQ and WoW novels where healing does indeed occur, or even to the EQ comic books. And if he needs his IP to be realistic (as in internally consistent as established in a different medium) to enjoy, how does he play any of them as none of these MMOs usually have any novelizations until they become popular.
  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member Common

    I love how they implemented healers in Vanguard.

    They have low dps, but they are quite sturdy solo, so you dont depend upon having a party that much. And even when in party, healers are much more interactive. You have to go through sequences of attacks to install group buffs or execute special heals, or do special finishers for extra buffs and healing. The only exception for mechanisms like this is the Shaman, who however has the largest array of debuffs in the whole game - in most cases in group, I never managed to install all debuffs on the mob before the mob was already gone again.

    Of course there are always these situations where you have to focus on healing exclusively, like the OP demanded. But in general its much more interesting.

    I hated it how Lineage II did it - at highlevel my Shillien Elder was completely useless solo, even against undead. And it was indeed a "classic" healer as the OP described it - mindnumbing boring, just watch hitpoint bars, and buff your fellow allies - without ever doing anything else at all.

    It got worse after I left though, they removed a lot of the Shillien Elders ability to heal, so they had been turned into pretty pointless buffbots. Not sure why they thought thats a good idea, but whatever.

     

  • LhynnSaintLhynnSaint CordobaPosts: 119Member
    Originally posted by Rimmersman

     

    Yup, anyone who has not played this game and likes their MMOs to have depth and no hand holding really needs to play the next beta. For some reason MMORPG.COM is not really promoting the game other than an odd mention, they didn't even play the beta that has just gone.

     

    They made an odd mention about a feature they have heard about but not even tried, i guess devs need to cough up some cash before they get real coverage on these gaming sites.

     

    Away from that i still like the trinity system though.

    Massively gave it a full coverage.

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    But it was so mindnumbingly boring! And its been done to death.

    look at the games she played, healing in those games was anythinb but boring, especially not raids

    the only thing I don't know about is WoW, but in EQ1 as a healer you were carried on rosepedals, people loved a good cleric

    clerics were also the best powerlevers because of their reverse damage shield

    well then we have a prob :)

     

    if that was done in EQ already, there obviously NEVER was a time when healers didnt do dmg  :P

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCPosts: 1,582Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    The people who hate on the trinity model (it was more like quad or more in EQ), should come up with a viable alternative before they shoot it down.

    And no, soloing or making all classes DPS is not a viable alternative.

    People complain they couldn't find a healer or tank, that's not the game's fault, that's how the system works, it creates dependency, you are forced to engage with people and socialise. Unless the game falls below a treshold of a handful of people, the trinity model is amazing.

     

     

    I agree with all of the above, though I will say that I actually prefer games like City of Heroes where the trinity is expanded on - you have your traditional trinity, but secondary functions like buffing, debuffing, and crowd control are all also extremely useful.

    <3

  • LhynnSaintLhynnSaint CordobaPosts: 119Member
    Originally posted by dreamscaper
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    The people who hate on the trinity model (it was more like quad or more in EQ), should come up with a viable alternative before they shoot it down.

    And no, soloing or making all classes DPS is not a viable alternative.

    People complain they couldn't find a healer or tank, that's not the game's fault, that's how the system works, it creates dependency, you are forced to engage with people and socialise. Unless the game falls below a treshold of a handful of people, the trinity model is amazing.

     

     

    I agree with all of the above, though I will say that I actually prefer games like City of Heroes where the trinity is expanded on - you have your traditional trinity, but secondary functions like buffing, debuffing, and crowd control are all also extremely useful.

    City of heroes did the whole healing thing really well.

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    Vanguard has some of the more innovative healers ive seen in any mmo. they are dedicated healers but rely in some measure on their melee abilities to keep the heals up and flowing. its great stuff and would love to see more exploration in this realm.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • JaedorJaedor Denver, COPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    Historically, I always rolled healers. It was a lot of fun being "special" and I got treated well for being very good at it and especially being willing to do it for years. I have lots of great memories of the good times that came out of group events and teamwork.


    But the rough part of it was being pidgeon-holed into a role and having to rely on others to do your job. Unless I constantly grouped, I had limited value with an exclusively healer build.


    So these days I've been having fun building hybrid specs.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Coman
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    I think you miss the point.. classless roles are there for a reason... its more "realistic" no medical technician has the ability in real life or fantasy  to make someone completely healthy in like ten seconds while in combat... combat is boring and requires little movement or maneuvering.. in real life thats not the case... gw2 and other games are more realistic... therefore a healer is not necessary.

    Realism is it? Ok, let's have amputees and dead is dead... and no fireballs coming out your fingers either... scratch magic... and super stealth in well-lit open places... forget assassins (no great loss there :) ) realism is a slippery slope. Let's talk gameplay and game systems not realism please.

    You can have realism in a fantasy setting. It not a slippery slope at all. Having someone go completly stealthy and have people shoot fireball from there fingers is not unrealistic in a fantasty setting. Now having a human fall from a big distance without something (magical of phisical) catching him and he does not die is also in a fantasy setting unrealistic

    Just listen to yourself. Fireballs are OK but healing isn't? And for your damage example you pick the one thing in most MMOs that will in fact kill you? Sorry that makes no sense.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon

    A couple of day ago I bit on the Blizzard "10 days free" for innactive accounts. This was my first look at MOP and what I wanted to see and what I did was play a Monk.

     

    The new Monk class is a very interesting class that can specialize into any of the 3 roles. I went for the Mistweaver healer spec which is in fact a viable melee-healer. 50% of the damage they dish out is a smart heal to whoever needs it most. This is not my first time using this type of mechanic. I first tried it in Warhammer Online with both the Archmage and the Warrior Priest and then again in rift with the Chloromancer. Blizzard has done a good job following the trend and have created a fun way to heal. Yes, they also have direct heals and the monk can be used that way, but it's either an occasioanl "oh shit" thing or a personal choice for those who prefer the old way. There is nothing boring about healing as a secondary effect off the damage you do unlike the routine health-bar watching mini-game.

     

    There're also a lot of these "secondary effect" mechanics that happen in GW2 but they're just too weak. GW2 chose to go in the direction of "everyone is DPS" with the core mechanic being "roll to avoid" and they balanced around that. They could have balanced around the secondary buffs, debuffs and heals instead. Like it or not, heals are still needed there. "Roll-dodge" kiting can look a bit silly after a while and it just takes time away from using the talents and abilities you'd rather be using.

     

    In GW2, I was on my 80 Guardian the other day in a level 50ish zone working on world completion. I ran into a DE with a champion and there were only 2 other players there. We gave it a shot and once the fight started I got aggro and the champ never wavered from coming after me. I tried everything I could at melee range and he was just doing too much damage when I couldn't avoid it...it was clear we wouldn't makke it. So I switched to my staff and kited ihim around a flagpole roll-dodging and firing off an ability when I could.

     

    We did get him in the end and that sort of fight can be fun once or twice but really... it just looked silly: big bad guy chases player around flagpole while two other players follow behind weakly whacking at it for 5 minutes... comedy moment aside, it didn't feel any more rewarding to me than some of the better trinity-based fights I've had in other games.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    The people who hate on the trinity model (it was more like quad or more in EQ), should come up with a viable alternative before they shoot it down.

    And no, soloing or making all classes DPS is not a viable alternative.

    People complain they couldn't find a healer or tank, that's not the game's fault, that's how the system works, it creates dependency, you are forced to engage with people and socialise. Unless the game falls below a treshold of a handful of people, the trinity model is amazing.

     

    Yes it is.

    Diablo 3 is a good example. No trinity and combat works for small 4 man dungeons.

  • LeiloniLeiloni None of your beeswax, ALPosts: 432Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by muffins89
    i like healing.  but until they make it so it's not just staring at the ui boxes covering my screen i can do without it.  i think developers are slowly going towards something more engaging.  until they get there i'll be happy to let others heal themselves.

    TERA and RaiderZ have done some interesting things with healing. You don't stare at the UI because they are free targeting games, so you have lock ons and area heals that force you to aim your heals at your teammates. Makes it much more fun and engaging since you can not only watch but be a part of combat and not have to stare at the UI. However both of those games have problems in other areas so I'm still waiting for a game that can do it right. WildStar so far looks to be that game, so crossing my fingers it turns out well. 

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