Granpa misses the days when he can gank and grief other players.
Typical troll response from people who don't understand anything about game design.
We miss the days when MMOs were designed well.
Not really, maybe it's you who don't understand the diversity of people. ..heh, maybe you don't understand the nature of game design.
And for the record, I have and have been ganked. I get the adrenaline rush. I played open world PvP too, but unlike other people, like the OP and maybe you, I acknowledge that this kind of design shouldn't be forced on players, and I believe that those who openly attack other people's tastes should be welcomed with snarky remarks.
Like I said, what's the problem? Are there ZERO OWPvP in the MMORPG.com games list?
You're just digging yourself in deeper and deeper.
How difficult is it for you to understand that when someone says noninstanced PvP, they aren't always talking about FFA PVP ganking anywhere anytime style PvP? Look up DAoC.
As for instanced PvP, it's not what MMOs do best. Competetive ladder style everything even FPS rounds PvP is done best by games like LoL. MMOs should focus on large scale PvP. Focusing on instanced PvP is just as big a waste of potential as an MMO focusing on instanced singleplayer storylines. Genres exist already for people who like that stuff, leave MMOs to what MMOs do well. Large scale multiplayer.
You're 32 years old and have almost 1000 posts in 2 months. I don't think you understand what real life is. Go get some fresh air for Christ sakes.
I'm 20, actually. Lots of down time in lecture. But thanks for showing how when instance fans are called out they restort to personal attacks instead of facts or discussion of game design.
Didnt read the whole thread but this is my take on it. Some people love that closed arena style combat instead of huge open pvp. Whats the problem with that? To each his own. Btw when you insult someone byt calling them a carebear you are nothing more then a troll and I cant take you seriously.
As for me i enjoy RVR type battles but dont enjoy games with forced full loot pvp.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
Originally posted by Quizzical What I don't understand is why people settle for world PVP trash in which winning is determined almost entirely by level, gear, and how many people your side has in the area, with very little impact from what you actually do in combat.
Thanks for the laughs, I've seen a small group defeat the odds of numbers. Level or gear? people need to learn to get their gear and max level before participating in endgame content such as OPvP, its a joke to enter at level 5 with level 5 gear, no one does that........
"Quality Over Quantity."
All friendly opinions here but I agree with OP, instanced PvP is pure trash.
And how do you avoid owPvP when you're trying to level and someone higher level than you with better gear comes at you and can just 1 shot (or close) you and camp your corpse if he wants? How can you not enter owPvP when it's everywhere and you don't have the choice to not participate? This doesn't make any sense.
I've always preferred instanced PvP since it's a lot easier to get a clean and balanced fight. IMO, its usually there that you will find the best players. Sure owPvP can be fun too but just not in a game where gear matters too much. I mean, I don't mind if someone tries to gank me and I know I can do something, but when your gear stop you from doing anything, its just pure trash. I also love it when you can beat twice the numbers of your group, but it kinda get old fast since you're usually against a bunch of uncoordinated noobs. If they could make a game where your level and gear don't matter at all in the fight, sure the owPvP could be the best thing ever, but I've never seen one and I doubt we will. If it happen, I will surely play.
Originally posted by Quizzical What I don't understand is why people settle for world PVP trash in which winning is determined almost entirely by level, gear, and how many people your side has in the area, with very little impact from what you actually do in combat.
Instanced PvP is determined by the same factors...
Look at WoW, all the way up to level cap you have people trolling others in BG's with Heirloom Pieces. SWTOR people that PvP all the time get there PvP sets/mods. RIFT is all about the PvP Gear Grind, getting those Valor Pieces. If your at the low end of the bracket or the high end etc.
~~~~
No the problems with PVP as a whole right now, instanced or OW, is the major leaps in gear (Green to Blue to Purple to Orange), Its to much of a gap.
The problem people have with OW PvP is they don't know what Ganking and Griefing actually is. Ganking is taking a soloer down in a group. 1v2..1v4...1vZERG! Ganking is not killing you while your in the middle of fighting a mob... sorry people, when you roll a PvP server you do so in the knowledge that you can be attacked at any time (most games even warn you before you choose the server), learn to fight reset.
Griefing is not something that is exclusive to PVP, it happens in PvE as well. Ninjaing loot, mobs, quest items, causing you to glitch on something, MPKing (Monster-Player Kill for those that are green to the Genre) etc.
Ganking/Griefing =/= A RED Player
As a RED player myself I can't stand gankers and griefers. They make me look bad, obviously or this post wouldn't be needed.
Bartle was correct when he came out with his psychology of games and what a multiplayer game needed. Killers, Explorers, Achievers, and Socializers. The expanded list as well; Reds...Blues...Crafters...Economists..etc. You need them all to create a healthy well-rounded community.
We need more BLUES to combat the REDS and you wouldn't see so many people against OWPvP.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Originally posted by Quizzical What I don't understand is why people settle for world PVP trash in which winning is determined almost entirely by level, gear, and how many people your side has in the area, with very little impact from what you actually do in combat.
Instanced PvP is determined by the same factors...
Look at WoW, all the way up to level cap you have people trolling others in BG's with Heirloom Pieces. SWTOR people that PvP all the time get there PvP sets/mods. RIFT is all about the PvP Gear Grind, getting those Valor Pieces. If your at the low end of the bracket or the high end etc.
~~~~
No the problems with PVP as a whole right now, instanced or OW, is the major leaps in gear (Green to Blue to Purple to Orange), Its to much of a gap.
The problem people have with OW PvP is they don't know what Ganking and Griefing actually is. Ganking is taking a soloer down in a group. 1v2..1v4...1vZERG! Ganking is not killing you while your in the middle of fighting a mob... sorry people, when you roll a PvP server you do so in the knowledge that you can be attacked at any time (most games even warn you before you choose the server), learn to fight reset.
Griefing is not something that is exclusive to PVP, it happens in PvE as well. Ninjaing loot, mobs, quest items, causing you to glitch on something, MPKing (Monster-Player Kill for those that are green to the Genre) etc.
Ganking/Griefing =/= A RED Player
As a RED player myself I can't stand gankers and griefers. They make me look bad, obviously or this post wouldn't be needed.
Bartle was correct when he came out with his psychology of games and what a multiplayer game needed. Killers, Explorers, Achievers, and Socializers. The expanded list as well; Reds...Blues...Crafters...Economists..etc. You need them all to create a healthy well-rounded community.
We need more BLUES to combat the REDS and you wouldn't see so many people against OWPvP.
I agree.. but the problem with that is that it is almost impossible to regulate.... no matter how interesting and amazing that would be.. no one can control the ratio of griefers to the ratio of others.. i don't mind owpvp.. but i believe u should be able to turn it off.. not to pick/choose battles but so that you can decide if today you want to participate in pvp.. or today is just a day for crafting and looting/lvling up... without the ability to do so.. at times it will be incredibly difficult to get anything done...
ppl mention grouping and guilds a lot... but your friends will not always be online when you are to protect u.. it defeats the purpose of even having them.
Originally posted by Quizzical What I don't understand is why people settle for world PVP trash in which winning is determined almost entirely by level, gear, and how many people your side has in the area, with very little impact from what you actually do in combat.
Instanced PvP is determined by the same factors...
Look at WoW, all the way up to level cap you have people trolling others in BG's with Heirloom Pieces. SWTOR people that PvP all the time get there PvP sets/mods. RIFT is all about the PvP Gear Grind, getting those Valor Pieces. If your at the low end of the bracket or the high end etc.
~~~~
No the problems with PVP as a whole right now, instanced or OW, is the major leaps in gear (Green to Blue to Purple to Orange), Its to much of a gap.
The problem people have with OW PvP is they don't know what Ganking and Griefing actually is. Ganking is taking a soloer down in a group. 1v2..1v4...1vZERG! Ganking is not killing you while your in the middle of fighting a mob... sorry people, when you roll a PvP server you do so in the knowledge that you can be attacked at any time (most games even warn you before you choose the server), learn to fight reset.
Griefing is not something that is exclusive to PVP, it happens in PvE as well. Ninjaing loot, mobs, quest items, causing you to glitch on something, MPKing (Monster-Player Kill for those that are green to the Genre) etc.
Ganking/Griefing =/= A RED Player
As a RED player myself I can't stand gankers and griefers. They make me look bad, obviously or this post wouldn't be needed.
Bartle was correct when he came out with his psychology of games and what a multiplayer game needed. Killers, Explorers, Achievers, and Socializers. The expanded list as well; Reds...Blues...Crafters...Economists..etc. You need them all to create a healthy well-rounded community.
We need more BLUES to combat the REDS and you wouldn't see so many people against OWPvP.
I agree.. but the problem with that is that it is almost impossible to regulate.... no matter how interesting and amazing that would be.. no one can control the ratio of griefers to the ratio of others.. i don't mind owpvp.. but i believe u should be able to turn it off.. not to pick/choose battles but so that you can decide if today you want to participate in pvp.. or today is just a day for crafting and looting/lvling up... without the ability to do so.. at times it will be incredibly difficult to get anything done...
ppl mention grouping and guilds a lot... but your friends will not always be online when you are to protect u.. it defeats the purpose of even having them.
True but you can't always do what you want to do all the time. Yes joining a guild is a great way to keep things like that in check. Another is to not go to area's where Griefers/Gankers are known to prowl. If you know there are gankers roaming around destroying people, stay in the city and craft or look for a group to play with (its an MMO you don't always have to group with people you know ...aka Final Fantasy XI style).
Sure Developers can help the situation out a bit like EVE did. Having different area's with different consequences. Having the real rare items/materials/RAIDS/Boss Fights in the lawless area's. While the less attractive yet still valuable items/mater- you get the point.
TL;DR
There are many different ways to combat Gankers/Griefers but Developers are to lazy to design, or players are to antisocial/entitled to use them.
EDIT: Also Gankers/Griefers are usually a very small minority of the population. Its just MMO's today are so antisocial nobody ever creates groups to combat them anymore.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Originally posted by Vorthanion Sounds to me like the OP wants sheep to hunt (World PvP) and can't deal with fighting other wolves of equatable skill / gear (Instanced PvP).
It has nothing to do with skill or being equal in gear. It has everything to do with redundancy.
I want the feeling of surprise and escape. I want the feeling of adapting to the situation. I can't do this in a Warzone or Battleground. All the best strategies are learned by all within the first month. After that, everything becomes a rinse/repeat grind for gear.
As for World PvP, proper sanctions can be put in place to protect lowbies etc. It's just that the developers refuse to take the time to do them. Instead, we get these small rooms surrounded by walls or mountains, a simple ruletset, and a PvP-ready label on the title.
Why is it so amazing? Don't you think others can have different preference than you?
You know that LOL, a pure instanced pvp game, is more popular than WOW right? That is pretty good evidence that arena type e-sport pvp is what a lot of people enjoy. WOT is also succeeding based on the same model. You don't even need a world to have good arena pvp.
It's not, though.
What is the first thing people do when they have all the final PvP rewards? Yup. They go fight in the world.
If rewards were removed from Battlegrounds, most people would quit. Battlegrounds alone is not fun enough to sustain interest.
So let me get this straight. Somebody likes/accepts something and you are in amazement?
Wow you must be amazed quite a lot considering the human population and the vast differences in tastes we all have, even if a lot of us shares some of the same tastes.
That's the problem with posters. They use themselves as reference points. Considering people are able to like different things maybe it's time to open ones eyes to that, even if you don't share it
When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?
EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.
SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.
Ever since WoW, PvP has become pure trash. And to make matters worse, "World PvP" has become such a loose term that anything that isn't completely structured is considered World PvP, e.g., SWTOR's Ilum - a dedicated area for PvP. This isn't World PvP. It's trash.
I'll tell you why people waste time in these redundant battlegrounds. It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces. You want that little piece of reward that everyone will eventually have. It's boring. It's an embarrassment to the genre.
I don't want to see anyone fail. However, it would be a lie to not say I enjoy watching these Instanced PvP games turn into failed FTP games.
Maybe you should vent your anger and dismay at the gaming developers, people are playing whats on offer. blame the organ grinder not the monkey.
Why is it so amazing? Don't you think others can have different preference than you?
You know that LOL, a pure instanced pvp game, is more popular than WOW right? That is pretty good evidence that arena type e-sport pvp is what a lot of people enjoy. WOT is also succeeding based on the same model. You don't even need a world to have good arena pvp.
It's not, though.
What is the first thing people do when they have all the final PvP rewards? Yup. They go fight in the world.
If rewards were removed from Battlegrounds, most people would quit. Battlegrounds alone is not fun enough to sustain interest.
Its easy to blame it on the rewards. It is the only way you can justify it, isn't it? They can't possibly think its good or fun, can they?
Jeez...
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
It is fun, but the playerbase has accepted a cartoon version of PvP over the war films that were faction based and guild PvP. The two sit very uneasily together and when a MMO has both the reward advantages of playing the cartoon version mean thats all anyone plays.
I think it is possible to have both in the same game if the rewards from instanced PvP were not the same as those from zone PvP. This principle has the same foundation as keeping the rewards from PvE and PvP separate. If you do that one form of play will not get picked over another purely for rewards. One specific, instanced PvP should not level you up.
I'm incredibly pro open world pvp (pro pvp generally), but instanced pvp as a subset of pvp, if far from "trash".
E-sport pvp can be incredibly fun and incredibly competitive. Just as open world pvp can be "trash" when handled badly and rammed into a game totally unsuited to it.
Open world pvp undoubtedly offers more in terms of knock on effects than instanced pvp, that is a no brainer. But if the game is not being set up to be an all encompassing sandbox or RvR game, then clearly instanced pvp has a lot of merits.
As with most systems/mechanics, it really boils down to what game you are trying to make and how well that system is applied.
We see the same kind of shit with regards to FFA full looting, AH vs Vendors, travel vs porting et al, all the time on these boards. Each system has their pros and cons and each suits a specific type of game.
Personally I do think the genre is being wasted, that by chasing the dollar and making everything as accessible as possible we are losing what makes the genre unique. I would rather see massive, open worlds with giant battles raging etc. But that is a larger topic of debate than "pvp".
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by DavisFlight I'd say it stems from ignorance. Most new/casual MMO players are only familiar with the sub par systems in place in WoW. Or, they've only ever tried the gimmicky FFA PvP servers on PvE MMOs, which are by and large, poorly designed.
Surely it's infinitely more likely that, rather than being influenced by WoW, the "new/casual MMO players" are influenced by the fact that every non-Massively-Multiplayer PvP game in the universe features equal sized teams, and they think that's actually a pretty good way to have a contest of skills.
When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?
EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.
SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.
Ever since WoW, PvP has become pure trash. And to make matters worse, "World PvP" has become such a loose term that anything that isn't completely structured is considered World PvP, e.g., SWTOR's Ilum - a dedicated area for PvP. This isn't World PvP. It's trash.
I'll tell you why people waste time in these redundant battlegrounds. It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces. You want that little piece of reward that everyone will eventually have. It's boring. It's an embarrassment to the genre.
I don't want to see anyone fail. However, it would be a lie to not say I enjoy watching these Instanced PvP games turn into failed FTP games.
Nagafen PvP never worked. It was zerg til rewards, then farm undergeared soloers at quest hubs.
In fact in the history of MMOs the only one that has done decent PvP is GW1, because it is completely skill based.
Lets face it, FFA open world PvP is primarily for griefers who don't really want a challenge.
Originally posted by DavisFlight I'd say it stems from ignorance. Most new/casual MMO players are only familiar with the sub par systems in place in WoW. Or, they've only ever tried the gimmicky FFA PvP servers on PvE MMOs, which are by and large, poorly designed.
Surely it's infinitely more likely that, rather than being influenced by WoW, the "new/casual MMO players" are influenced by the fact that every non-Massively-Multiplayer PvP game in the universe features equal sized teams, and they think that's actually a pretty good way to have a contest of skills.
QFT.
MMOs were *never* the pinnacle of PVP.
The only draw MMOs had was the class system and ablility to customize, grow and progress your character in PVP, something other genres copied years ago.
More and more non-mmorpg games offer instanced pvp arenas as their gameplay. Examples like LoL, WoT, Dota 2 or something that is closer to mmorpg combat - Forge and Forged by Chaos.
Even more will come in future.
It mean that alot of people who play mmorpg's mainly for instanced pvp will leave for those games.
Ever since i read OP i have been twisting and turning sleeplessly in my bed. I feel low and depressed that some random dude on internet questions my choice of enjoyment and looks down upon me.
You guys going "well instanced pvp is popular in lol and Tf2" and what not, ate actually backing up the ops post.
That style of pvp is abundantly available in a better format in non mmos for free.
Mmos can't do this pvp as well. Give me a csgo match over a wow battleground anyday.
However mmos can do pvp that lobby games can't . Either the massive factional pvp as seen done very well in daoc and both planetsides and fairly well in other games like gw2 and war. Or the economy driven sandbox gvg pvp done very well by eve and to a lesser degree by various other games.
That is playing to a mmos strength.
Instanced pvp in a mmo is just a substandard add on mini game that you can done much better in non mmos.
A good mmorpg should implement EVERYTHING and give out SUITABLE REWARDS.
It should have open pvp, ganking, arena pvp, 1v1, battlegrounds and anything else that hasn't been invented yet.
Devs are just being too lazy to implement everything of that in a proper way. By that standard every game on the market currently fails hard. (Yes except for eve, which sadly features a space setting and has arguably boring combat.)
I predict, that the company that sucessfully implements everything in an mmorpg will be the next big thing after wow.
Comments
I'm 20, actually. Lots of down time in lecture. But thanks for showing how when instance fans are called out they restort to personal attacks instead of facts or discussion of game design.
Didnt read the whole thread but this is my take on it. Some people love that closed arena style combat instead of huge open pvp. Whats the problem with that? To each his own. Btw when you insult someone byt calling them a carebear you are nothing more then a troll and I cant take you seriously.
As for me i enjoy RVR type battles but dont enjoy games with forced full loot pvp.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
And how do you avoid owPvP when you're trying to level and someone higher level than you with better gear comes at you and can just 1 shot (or close) you and camp your corpse if he wants? How can you not enter owPvP when it's everywhere and you don't have the choice to not participate? This doesn't make any sense.
I've always preferred instanced PvP since it's a lot easier to get a clean and balanced fight. IMO, its usually there that you will find the best players. Sure owPvP can be fun too but just not in a game where gear matters too much. I mean, I don't mind if someone tries to gank me and I know I can do something, but when your gear stop you from doing anything, its just pure trash. I also love it when you can beat twice the numbers of your group, but it kinda get old fast since you're usually against a bunch of uncoordinated noobs. If they could make a game where your level and gear don't matter at all in the fight, sure the owPvP could be the best thing ever, but I've never seen one and I doubt we will. If it happen, I will surely play.
Instanced PvP is determined by the same factors...
Look at WoW, all the way up to level cap you have people trolling others in BG's with Heirloom Pieces. SWTOR people that PvP all the time get there PvP sets/mods. RIFT is all about the PvP Gear Grind, getting those Valor Pieces. If your at the low end of the bracket or the high end etc.
~~~~
No the problems with PVP as a whole right now, instanced or OW, is the major leaps in gear (Green to Blue to Purple to Orange), Its to much of a gap.
The problem people have with OW PvP is they don't know what Ganking and Griefing actually is. Ganking is taking a soloer down in a group. 1v2..1v4...1vZERG! Ganking is not killing you while your in the middle of fighting a mob... sorry people, when you roll a PvP server you do so in the knowledge that you can be attacked at any time (most games even warn you before you choose the server), learn to fight reset.
Griefing is not something that is exclusive to PVP, it happens in PvE as well. Ninjaing loot, mobs, quest items, causing you to glitch on something, MPKing (Monster-Player Kill for those that are green to the Genre) etc.
Ganking/Griefing =/= A RED Player
As a RED player myself I can't stand gankers and griefers. They make me look bad, obviously or this post wouldn't be needed.
Bartle was correct when he came out with his psychology of games and what a multiplayer game needed. Killers, Explorers, Achievers, and Socializers. The expanded list as well; Reds...Blues...Crafters...Economists..etc. You need them all to create a healthy well-rounded community.
We need more BLUES to combat the REDS and you wouldn't see so many people against OWPvP.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I agree.. but the problem with that is that it is almost impossible to regulate.... no matter how interesting and amazing that would be.. no one can control the ratio of griefers to the ratio of others.. i don't mind owpvp.. but i believe u should be able to turn it off.. not to pick/choose battles but so that you can decide if today you want to participate in pvp.. or today is just a day for crafting and looting/lvling up... without the ability to do so.. at times it will be incredibly difficult to get anything done...
ppl mention grouping and guilds a lot... but your friends will not always be online when you are to protect u.. it defeats the purpose of even having them.
True but you can't always do what you want to do all the time. Yes joining a guild is a great way to keep things like that in check. Another is to not go to area's where Griefers/Gankers are known to prowl. If you know there are gankers roaming around destroying people, stay in the city and craft or look for a group to play with (its an MMO you don't always have to group with people you know ...aka Final Fantasy XI style).
Sure Developers can help the situation out a bit like EVE did. Having different area's with different consequences. Having the real rare items/materials/RAIDS/Boss Fights in the lawless area's. While the less attractive yet still valuable items/mater- you get the point.
TL;DR
There are many different ways to combat Gankers/Griefers but Developers are to lazy to design, or players are to antisocial/entitled to use them.
EDIT: Also Gankers/Griefers are usually a very small minority of the population. Its just MMO's today are so antisocial nobody ever creates groups to combat them anymore.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
It has nothing to do with skill or being equal in gear. It has everything to do with redundancy.
I want the feeling of surprise and escape. I want the feeling of adapting to the situation. I can't do this in a Warzone or Battleground. All the best strategies are learned by all within the first month. After that, everything becomes a rinse/repeat grind for gear.
As for World PvP, proper sanctions can be put in place to protect lowbies etc. It's just that the developers refuse to take the time to do them. Instead, we get these small rooms surrounded by walls or mountains, a simple ruletset, and a PvP-ready label on the title.
It's not, though.
What is the first thing people do when they have all the final PvP rewards? Yup. They go fight in the world.
If rewards were removed from Battlegrounds, most people would quit. Battlegrounds alone is not fun enough to sustain interest.
So let me get this straight. Somebody likes/accepts something and you are in amazement?
Wow you must be amazed quite a lot considering the human population and the vast differences in tastes we all have, even if a lot of us shares some of the same tastes.
That's the problem with posters. They use themselves as reference points. Considering people are able to like different things maybe it's time to open ones eyes to that, even if you don't share it
Maybe you should vent your anger and dismay at the gaming developers, people are playing whats on offer. blame the organ grinder not the monkey.
Its easy to blame it on the rewards. It is the only way you can justify it, isn't it? They can't possibly think its good or fun, can they?
Jeez...
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It is fun, but the playerbase has accepted a cartoon version of PvP over the war films that were faction based and guild PvP. The two sit very uneasily together and when a MMO has both the reward advantages of playing the cartoon version mean thats all anyone plays.
I think it is possible to have both in the same game if the rewards from instanced PvP were not the same as those from zone PvP. This principle has the same foundation as keeping the rewards from PvE and PvP separate. If you do that one form of play will not get picked over another purely for rewards. One specific, instanced PvP should not level you up.
I'm incredibly pro open world pvp (pro pvp generally), but instanced pvp as a subset of pvp, if far from "trash".
E-sport pvp can be incredibly fun and incredibly competitive. Just as open world pvp can be "trash" when handled badly and rammed into a game totally unsuited to it.
Open world pvp undoubtedly offers more in terms of knock on effects than instanced pvp, that is a no brainer. But if the game is not being set up to be an all encompassing sandbox or RvR game, then clearly instanced pvp has a lot of merits.
As with most systems/mechanics, it really boils down to what game you are trying to make and how well that system is applied.
We see the same kind of shit with regards to FFA full looting, AH vs Vendors, travel vs porting et al, all the time on these boards. Each system has their pros and cons and each suits a specific type of game.
Personally I do think the genre is being wasted, that by chasing the dollar and making everything as accessible as possible we are losing what makes the genre unique. I would rather see massive, open worlds with giant battles raging etc. But that is a larger topic of debate than "pvp".
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Surely it's infinitely more likely that, rather than being influenced by WoW, the "new/casual MMO players" are influenced by the fact that every non-Massively-Multiplayer PvP game in the universe features equal sized teams, and they think that's actually a pretty good way to have a contest of skills.
Nagafen PvP never worked. It was zerg til rewards, then farm undergeared soloers at quest hubs.
In fact in the history of MMOs the only one that has done decent PvP is GW1, because it is completely skill based.
Lets face it, FFA open world PvP is primarily for griefers who don't really want a challenge.
oh lawd
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
QFT.
MMOs were *never* the pinnacle of PVP.
The only draw MMOs had was the class system and ablility to customize, grow and progress your character in PVP, something other genres copied years ago.
http://lyrics.iztok.org/verse/Lynyrd_Skynyrd/Simple_Man/80615
More and more non-mmorpg games offer instanced pvp arenas as their gameplay. Examples like LoL, WoT, Dota 2 or something that is closer to mmorpg combat - Forge and Forged by Chaos.
Even more will come in future.
It mean that alot of people who play mmorpg's mainly for instanced pvp will leave for those games.
Instanced PVP is 1000x better then open world pvp.
Many reasons have been said already, for me its the long walk till you get 1 shot by somone and walk there again. Rinse and repeat.
Ever since i read OP i have been twisting and turning sleeplessly in my bed. I feel low and depressed that some random dude on internet questions my choice of enjoyment and looks down upon me.
My life will never be the same again. ;(
*hops into GW2 SPVP to blow off some steam*
That style of pvp is abundantly available in a better format in non mmos for free.
Mmos can't do this pvp as well. Give me a csgo match over a wow battleground anyday.
However mmos can do pvp that lobby games can't . Either the massive factional pvp as seen done very well in daoc and both planetsides and fairly well in other games like gw2 and war. Or the economy driven sandbox gvg pvp done very well by eve and to a lesser degree by various other games.
That is playing to a mmos strength.
Instanced pvp in a mmo is just a substandard add on mini game that you can done much better in non mmos.
Why is this even a discussion?
A good mmorpg should implement EVERYTHING and give out SUITABLE REWARDS.
It should have open pvp, ganking, arena pvp, 1v1, battlegrounds and anything else that hasn't been invented yet.
Devs are just being too lazy to implement everything of that in a proper way. By that standard every game on the market currently fails hard. (Yes except for eve, which sadly features a space setting and has arguably boring combat.)
I predict, that the company that sucessfully implements everything in an mmorpg will be the next big thing after wow.
Give me more games like planetside 2, that know who their audience is and give their audience the best possible experience.
Infinitely preferable to games just adding a couple of battlegrounds to a raid grinder so the can put a "got pvp" check on the game box.
We need different games for different players.
PS2 is a great game.
But from instanced pvp fighters point of view.
Imagine warsong gulch on PS2.
People standing on the starting area,joining instances.
What eis the next step on this instancing? well next step is instance inside instance which is allready instance.
Let's internet