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I am not a Pure Sandbox fan but I do like alot of sandbox elements and one of the best elements of sandbox is there is no hero, you are just a regular guy trying to make it in a dangerous world and your story is what you make of it.
Storyline are nothing but forced linearity and I feel linearity is the death of MMO's.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by DarthRaiden How can someone put Singleplayer with MassiveMultiplayer together and don't see a contradiction and feel stupid ? Single Player is entirely different and does not have anything to do with Massive Multiplayer online games other then the game someone plays for himself get some patches from internet at best. Its another approach and shouldn't be mixed with the superior concept of meeting other over the net and play TOGETHER ! The spproach from developers to derail Massive Multiplayer games is disgusting and unfortunately they attempts fall on players who dont know much about the principles of MMORPG's and why they exist in the first place..
Single player (solo) contents are parts of almost every MMO right now, and there are reasons for that. Saying that SP has nothing to do with MMO is both narrowminded and wrong.
The term "MMO" doesn't necessarily mean you have to group with others everytime you wanna do something. It's like in the real world, sometimes you wanna hang out with your friends, and sometimes you wanna be alone. We don't "feel stupid" because we don't see a contradiction, we are actually smart enough to understand that games can mix both terms, and luckily the devs agree with us.
If that is "disgusting" to you, then maybe you've outgrown MMOs, and need to move one. MMOs evolves, but you seems to have been left behind.
I mostly agree with the OP but regards to SP MMO claim i have to say i did a lot more grouping and socializing in 2 weeks of SW:ToR (tnx to heroics and such) than i did in 2.5 months of GW2 (just an example). And i saw tons more RP'ers in both SW:ToR and WoW than any other game in recent memory.
So when you look at it that way, it is a bonus that those games have a cool storyline too y'know, in addition to classic mmo features. And i really like the dialogues on ToR. I look forward to every conversation opportunity because i get to see my character act and i just like the choices
Originally posted by Coldren Originally posted by vayman Game companies need to let us make our own stories in MMOs. Give us the world, give us the freedom, give us the tools. We'll do the rest. That said, it would be fine to have some evolving storylines along with the sandbox. Something to rally behind as a community and get involved in before returning to our normal routines within the virtual world. No matter how hard they try, MMOs aren't going to be able to come close to the stories found in single player games. MMOs should focus on what they're meant to do: provide an online roleplaying experience for a massive amount of players at once.
They had that 15 years ago.. It's called Ultima Online.
The only problem is.. It's 15 years old.. No one has tried to do what they did (And still do) since.
Level-less, deep, complex, free and open sandbox... Apparently to hard to do these days, or at least get finance for.
They had that with EQ1 as well.
I've been complaining about this for ages. I honestly believe its a reflection on modern society. Current generations have a overbearing sense of entitlement, they have either been taught or somehow come to the conclusion that they just deserve things just because they exist, and that they dont/shouldnt have to work for anything.
In EQ1 you started out as nothing and made something of yourself. You had to prove yourself to in game NPC's and in game NPC factions before they would give you the better or cooler stuff/quests/whatever.
That all changed with WOW. With WOW it was "you're the //HERO//" and we have to constantly remind you how freaking AWESOME and HEROIC you are. I remember my first quest as a human was to save a church from an entire horde of goblins. And i was rewarded with a magical sword literally less than 5 minutes from entering the game.
I remember in EQ you couldnt hit certain monsters without a sword that was just labelled magical. So even if you had a Steel Rapier, if you tried to kill a ghost you couldnt hit it. Now, you could find magical swords, but that was the only difference. You didnt generally even start seeing actual stats on weapons, much less magical weapons WITH stats, until early teens and eartly twenties for magical with stats. Even then the item might be 3str and 5hp.
Anyways, sadly its not going to change. Not while that large of a portion of the MMO playerbase is of the "gimmiedat" mindset
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Originally posted by birdycephon But lets face it, some people like to go to a party, and just be around people without actually interacting with them.
Thats fine. The difference is they aren't impeding the people who DO like to interact with other people.
The problem is all MMO's are being made to cater to the "be around without socializing" people.
Its like if you had a club, and instead of having things that groups of people can do, like tables for them to drink at, in groups, and billiards tables for several people to play billiards, or ping pong tables, whatever, that the club had a bunch of isolated booths where everyone showed up to the club, but all you did at the club was drink by yourself in your isolated booth while you surfed the web on your laptop and didnt actually talk to anybody else in the club, or do any kind of group activity.
The problem then arises if you want to go somewhere to drink socially and play some billiards with your buddies, you can't go to that club. Now, in normal life, you just go to a regular club. Problem is in the MMO industry the antisocial single player MMO types are the majority of the pie. SO the people who control the money who pay the people to make the games force them to make games that cater to that demographic, leaving actual MULTIPLAYER lovers, out in the woods.
Originally posted by Hrimnir Originally posted by birdycephon But lets face it, some people like to go to a party, and just be around people without actually interacting with them.
You seem to be assuming that there are only two kinds of people/players. The truth is that a lot (most?) of us, likes to have the opportunity to be both, and to be able to "switch" any time we like. And I admit, I'm less social when soloing, I guess most of us are. If that's problematic for you, then it's... well, your problem.
I don't understand why TOR's story is being referred to here as ‘the singleplayer experience’. That may have been traditionally true, but TOR was a move to change that. It showed that it could be a multiplayer experience, and that's what it is.
If people didn't play through it with their friends, that's their loss, I guess.
i think if MMORPGs were to be focused on single player story, then why not remove the mmo feature from it. Make them full single players with DLC instead of subscriptions like any console RPG. You can talk to your friends through the mic on a pc, maybe with skype or mumble while each one playing their single player experience (i do that all the time and it works)
IF the "mmorpg" is going to be single player based, then why should the player pay for the online servers? i say let it be full single player OR make an mmorpg with story where said story directly involves at least people on your group as a co-op choice, and everyone around are somewhat affected by the general story. Dont focus the story on a single person. Its called MMORPG for a reason. At least GW2 tried to make the personal story like a separate campaign that you dont have to touch if you dont want to. But still, if theres a story, let everyone be affected by it.
I have been shouting this at the top of my lungs for years! An MMO that focuses on story is not a true MMORPG. I also take it a step further an MMO that focuses on combat is not a going to turn out to be a true MMO. Same with graphics. Those three have no place being a main focus of an MMORPG.
An MMORPG started out as it being about a nice big virtual world with great lore (not to be confused with story), meaningful content, and other players. Those 3 things were what started this genre. Now we have compilation of small instanced zones, busy work errand boy content, and a focus on solo play. There is a market for Online rpg's I dont care if they continue to make these so called MMO's but I want to see some real MMORPG's made again, It worked once it will work again. A true MMORPG was and always will be a niche genre.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIVFavorite MMO: FFXI
Originally posted by Pokket I am just going to give an unbiased opinion on BioWare's approach with "story"
I don't mean to butt heads here, or attack your argument, but by definition all opinions are inherently biased. There are no objective opinions, and claiming to have them may defer readers from your actual point and instead to looking at how you're saying things.
In regards to the topic, I agree; story is a nice feature, but if it doesn't have fun mechanics centered around it, it's just another feature that goes unnoticeable. When the game is fun to play, story will enhance it, but won't do much for those turned off by how unenjoyable the button pressing is.
Maybe a different approach to stories could help the genre. We have too many stories centered on the player character; while this is nice, everyone is playing that story. Why not introduce stories that show our part as one of the thousands fighting for whatever faction we're a part of?
Finally! Someone who gets why MMO's these days aren't really MMO's! It's like a solo game with other players!
Bring back meaningful grouping! Not forced grouping! Most MMO's nowadays are a solo game.
There's different ways to tell a story. You all can sit around me and I can tell you a story. Or you can all sit around me, I give you a setting and you tell me your stories within the context of the setting I established.
One method puts people in passive mode. The other method requires active participation and creativity.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Edit: Flip flopping runs rampant these days, even myself is guilty of it, most recently was XIV for me. I knew better, I broke my own cardnial sins, I knew the word potential is a term for a fast sinking ship yet i convinced myself maybe its real. Long story short if your using the potential excuse your already done. I got burnt, if I would have just listened to my normal pesimistic self it never would have happened.
I wish developers would treat single player games and mmo's as complete diffrent genres. I used to play mmo's so i could meet peaple and play with. If i wanted to play a single player mmo id stick one of my one of my old copies of FF's in my playstation.
IMO Peaple who want to Solo RPG's should just play regular rpg games, and leave the MMO's for peaple who want to play online together.
Originally posted by Raserei Finally! Someone who gets why MMO's these days aren't really MMO's! It's like a solo game with other players! Bring back meaningful grouping! Not forced grouping! Most MMO's nowadays are a solo game.
Define meaningful as you see it. Is it not meaningful at end game to group with with other plays to do a hard mode or raid? You may or may not like the treadmill or gear grind that some people do but it holds meaning to the subset of players that do enjoy doing it.
You can also go both ways in defning it as forced if you think the whole point of playing is to get all the gear. I don't think it is as I am not overly concerned with most games raid gear, so to me it's not forced grouping though it is meaningful if I enjoy the guild I'm in and just feel like spending X hours helping everyone get them there phat lewtz.
Originally posted by toddze Originally posted by SirBalin [mod edit]
This simply is being unfair to Pokket. She long ago said these things about replayability related to story in TOR. There is no waffling except, and she admits this, that she enjoyed the story greatly the first run through, and then not quite as much in consecutive play throughs. She also admits to still being a fan of the game which is distinct from fangirl/fanboy.
Personally, I'd prefer more context oriented storytelling in addition to the great class storytelling in TOR. In other words, get rid of those damn side quest cut scenes!
First a minor correction to someone earlier on: Bioware had the LucasArts SW license, and EA bought them after SWTOR was in production. So EA couldn't have gotten some other MMO company to do the game -- it was already years into production.
Then, speculation. What I infer happened then, is that EA looked at what was in the works and said, "OMG, you are trying to do something ORIGINAL in the MMO genre? Not on our dime!" They made Bioware scrap whatever endgame plans they had, rework the legacy system, and de-empahsize story (yes *deemphasize it*) over their original plans in order to bring SWTOR more in line with a standard market MMO.
As a result, we got neither fish nor fowl, and the game really didn't have a good endgame (Pokket, I think you are nuts, the PVP and endgame currently are the least attractive part of the game and I am a fangrrl).
I think that the game could have appealed to a great many people who are the Skyrim/DA/... players, bringing them into the MMO environment and a style of play different from the ravening piranha 1337 squads that dominate most games. Still could if Bioware actually played to the strengths of the game, instead of trying to compete with every other game on the market on the standard turf.
More analysis on my G+ under "KOTOR with Friends" https://plus.google.com/101371184407256956306/posts/P6yZqcn2YC7
Repeating content inevitably becomes boring. Don't blame quests
The 2 games I enjoyed the most in last few years were Rift and LoTRO. Both games had quests and cinematic sequences that made the game a lot more enjoyable.
In both games I leveled 4 toons to max level. I loved the journey the first 2 times. It felt like I was exploring a new world and the quests and cinematic sequences enhanced that feeling. The second time through I often discover content I missed the first time exploring those areas. The fact that I enjoyed playing the game from start to finish twice is a credit to both games.
The 3rd and 4th time is usually a grind and becomes a race to reach max level as quickly as possible. In retrospect, leveling 4 toons to max level to master all crafts is a crazy reason to keep playing a game.
I have played games that had no or few quests and they felt like boring grind fests. If you are not into pvp, what would you use instead of quests/missions that would give hours of entertainment?
Rift has shown, with rift invasion events and events triggered by encounters, that their are many different ways to implement a quest / mission system.
Just because someone is not into doing group dungeons or raids, does not mean they cannot contribute to their guild or other social activities.
There is an obvious saving in development costs if a game appeals to wider customer base: solo players, group players and raids. How to implement this without disenfranchising part of the player base is the challenge.
the 2 top story questing areas of WoW were the space-goat starter zone and the deathknight starter zone. it would be hard to determine which one was better for me. but i enjoyed both thoroughly.
upon finishing space-goat island i announced to my friends that *this* was the way a starter zone should be made. the quests and the story blended seamlessly.
the deathknight zone was not the same experience. it was heavier on the story side and you could feel it. but in the end the story itself was worth telling and if you could suspend disbelief just long enough you could see yourself as a part of this conflict.
"There are at least two kinds of games.One could be called finite, the other infinite.A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
AsRock 990FX Extreme3AMD Phenom II 1090T ~3.2GhzGEiL 16Gb DDR3 1600MhzASUS GTX970 3x HD monitor 1920x1080
Good write, cant hurt to repeat the truth.
A mmorpg should not focus on 200 hours of storyline followed by dull gameplay concepts consisting of farming points/badges/gear/fame or whatever as timezink. A good mmorpg should focus on concepts of adventure within a world that allows for freedom (freedom not anarchy); where the limitations that a game must have is not in your face all the time, such as tier dividing, designated areas for certain levels etc etc.
Story should be used if it has meaning, and not driving a game.. err a mmorpg. Gameplay and world first, story second.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
The idea of integrating a story with an MMO will only work well, if the MMO players have a chance to interact seemlessly with the story as it emerges. The epic plot should be the weather of the MMO, the breeze of i'll will and rising power, that entices the players to leave the sandbox and quest for good, evil or themselves...to weather or tame the approaching storm. The power of the fantasy novel series, the discovery of the unknown, the fastidous immersive quality of a twisting plot that can be seized and changed by the players!
To do that you have to throw out the shilling and profit mantras that have enclosed the creativity of game company and the assignment of capital.
The players of the MMO must be the center of the story, in that areana, single player and multiplayer distinction become irrelvevant.
Imagine your your favorite Fantasy series, the ideas of which have seeded the fantasy genre, now tear down the walls segmenting the creative jaunt. Imagine playing in the MMO of lord of rings as the series was writ and your play your quest had a quantitavive effect on the next book in the seires and ultimatly the ultimate conclusion of the series?
How? Our movement is growing and we will launch two weeks. This is our first humble attempt at Dynasty of the Magi...come find your power and give us some hardcore feedback. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/823846998/dynasty-of-the-magi-mmo-and-ebook-in-one?ref=live