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The amount of people who settle for Instanced PvP Trash simply amazes me.

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Comments

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

    EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.

    SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.

    Those games failed.  If all I cared about was world PVP I'd play a genre where it's more enjoyable like an FPS.

     

    World PVP generally means there will be a lot of ganking and rez camping.  It gets old after a while.  Most players prefer to choose when to PVP in a role playing game.  How fun would a role playing game like Skyrim be if people were always ganking you?

     

    World PVP really needs a game dedicated to it that doesn't really care about leveling or getting loot.

    But see, that's why SWG's TEF system was perfect. You could be overt which meant you'd be open for PvP attacks any time, you could be covert and choose WHEN to participate in PvP (nobody could attack you unless flagged) or you could simply avoid becoming covert which meant you didn't participate in PvP at all.

    IMHO, the best solution to PvP ever designed, and the most fun as well. Small skirmishes would sometimes turn into city-wide epic battles that lasted hours. I can't stress how much fun this system was, it was all win.

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     

    That's because, by and large, it is trash. Most MMOs have poorly thought out, stitched onto the end PvP. Very few MMOs include instanced PvP into the core design of the game. That's why they instance it, because it has almost nothing to do with the rest of the game. Good PVP is built into the core of the game. Good game systems are well thought out and deep.

    Instanced PvP generally, and almost always, has bad, tacked on game systems. That may be your thing, but from an objective viewpoint, most instanced PvP is poorly thought out garbage.

    You don't seem to get the idea that instanced pvp is not the byproduct of tacked on pvp desing. It is it's own type of pvp that can be designed from the beggining or tacked on just like owpvp. It's a different type of pvp.

     

    Objective viewpoint? I see there is no discussion to be had, with your "objective" facts of opinion...

    that's not his complaint.. his complaint is that the pvp isn't any good. instead of having castles that can be sieged immediately after being taken over.. they can be reinforced and unsiegable for 24 hours after it changes hands.. that way it would have lasting impact.... thats his/others focus.. that instanced pvp usually has no real consequences or goals... and that those that the have achievements are mediocre at best... it should be understandable..  his focus and enjoyment is pvp.. it should be made to be worthwhile whether it is open world or instanced..

    That is not his argument. He basically said that instanced pvp is scraps left over tacked on later in development. I'm telling him that is not true.

    I'm not a dev so i don't kno... but if it was their intention to make it the way it is.. and not as an afterthought.. maybe they have a target audience.. can't be upset if the game isn't made for you..

    I have no clue why you said why you just said....

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  • PrenhoPrenho AracajuPosts: 298Member

    I miss the old days of Lineage 2, where there were a lot of world bosses, one of the most wanted bosses was Baium, it has 1 week of respawn, 1 day before Baium re-appear, the 13th floor of tower of insolence was filled with enemy clans fighting over the spot. Good days, I'm waiting for another game focused on guild wars over world resorces and politics.

     

    Maybe Lineage Eternal will be my next MMO for, ate least, my next 5 years.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ07qYDvuBA

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxhmQVP1XS0

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     

    That's because, by and large, it is trash. Most MMOs have poorly thought out, stitched onto the end PvP. Very few MMOs include instanced PvP into the core design of the game. That's why they instance it, because it has almost nothing to do with the rest of the game. Good PVP is built into the core of the game. Good game systems are well thought out and deep.

    Instanced PvP generally, and almost always, has bad, tacked on game systems. That may be your thing, but from an objective viewpoint, most instanced PvP is poorly thought out garbage.

    You don't seem to get the idea that instanced pvp is not the byproduct of tacked on pvp desing. It is it's own type of pvp that can be designed from the beggining or tacked on just like owpvp. It's a different type of pvp.

     

    Objective viewpoint? I see there is no discussion to be had, with your "objective" facts of opinion...

    that's not his complaint.. his complaint is that the pvp isn't any good. instead of having castles that can be sieged immediately after being taken over.. they can be reinforced and unsiegable for 24 hours after it changes hands.. that way it would have lasting impact.... thats his/others focus.. that instanced pvp usually has no real consequences or goals... and that those that the have achievements are mediocre at best... it should be understandable..  his focus and enjoyment is pvp.. it should be made to be worthwhile whether it is open world or instanced..

    That is not his argument. He basically said that instanced pvp is scraps left over tacked on later in development. I'm telling him that is not true.

    I'm not a dev so i don't kno... but if it was their intention to make it the way it is.. and not as an afterthought.. maybe they have a target audience.. can't be upset if the game isn't made for you..

    I have no clue why you said why you just said....

    a wordy way of saying i agree.

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  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     

    That's because, by and large, it is trash. Most MMOs have poorly thought out, stitched onto the end PvP. Very few MMOs include instanced PvP into the core design of the game. That's why they instance it, because it has almost nothing to do with the rest of the game. Good PVP is built into the core of the game. Good game systems are well thought out and deep.

    Instanced PvP generally, and almost always, has bad, tacked on game systems. That may be your thing, but from an objective viewpoint, most instanced PvP is poorly thought out garbage.

    You don't seem to get the idea that instanced pvp is not the byproduct of tacked on pvp desing. It is it's own type of pvp that can be designed from the beggining or tacked on just like owpvp. It's a different type of pvp.

     

    Objective viewpoint? I see there is no discussion to be had, with your "objective" facts of opinion...

    that's not his complaint.. his complaint is that the pvp isn't any good. instead of having castles that can be sieged immediately after being taken over.. they can be reinforced and unsiegable for 24 hours after it changes hands.. that way it would have lasting impact.... thats his/others focus.. that instanced pvp usually has no real consequences or goals... and that those that the have achievements are mediocre at best... it should be understandable..  his focus and enjoyment is pvp.. it should be made to be worthwhile whether it is open world or instanced..

    That is not his argument. He basically said that instanced pvp is scraps left over tacked on later in development. I'm telling him that is not true.

    I'm not a dev so i don't kno... but if it was their intention to make it the way it is.. and not as an afterthought.. maybe they have a target audience.. can't be upset if the game isn't made for you..

    I have no clue why you said why you just said....

    a wordy way of saying i agree.

    no, it just has nothing to do with what we were talking about. He said instanced pvp is scraps, you tell me thats not what he said, I say it is and then you bring this comment which is completely from left field...

     

    EDIT: I kind of see some sense in your comment but its a bit irrelevant to the conversation.

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  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon

    no, it just has nothing to do with what we were talking about. He said instanced pvp is scraps, you tell me thats not what he said, I say it is and then you bring this comment which is completely from left field...

     

    EDIT: I kind of see some sense in your comment but its a bit irrelevant to the conversation.

    my point was that i don't know if it is tacked on or not.. you two can argue about it.. but i have no clue. and that if u are right... maybe the guy just isn't their target audience so he would feel dissatisfied.. not left field at all.. maybe just not clear enough.

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  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

    no, it just has nothing to do with what we were talking about. He said instanced pvp is scraps, you tell me thats not what he said, I say it is and then you bring this comment which is completely from left field...

     

    EDIT: I kind of see some sense in your comment but its a bit irrelevant to the conversation.

    my point was that i don't know if it is tacked on or not.. you two can argue about it.. but i have no clue. and that if u are right... maybe the guy just isn't their target audience so he would feel dissatisfied.. not left field at all.. maybe just not clear enough.

    Agreed, who knows if it tacked on or not. But he's saying it always is. Im saying thats not the case everytime. He's just complaining about spvp because he doesn't like it, just like the OP.

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  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    How did I miss this thread?

     

    Players have liked instanced PvP since before MMOs. If you've played other games this shouldn't come as a surprise.

    And I can only speak for myself but I prefer competitive PvP because it is fair, accessible, frequent and consistent whereas open world PvP is unfair, inaccessible, scarce and inconsistent. Fairness is important because I like to feel that my effort counts, and if the battle is largely predetermined through power or population differences, I have little interest to put in any effort. Accessibility is important because no PvP is worth waiting 3 hours to set things up. To be worth it, it would have to be f***ing mindblowing.

    Frequency is important, because I want to spend time in PvP, not looking for PvP. One engagement in a night is just not good enough. I need more blood! Consistensy is about how good the PvP one engagement after another. The trouble with open world PvP is that not only is the PvP infrequent, but they are also inconsistent. So when you finally get some action, that action might be some feeble pre-determined 1-minute gank. Wooptie-f***ing-doo. Hardly worth my time.

    Among other factors, games with instanced PvP usually have a greater focus on gameplay, which makes them usually better at it. I've never played open world PvP where I thought the game and gameplay was actually good. They keep disappointing without err.

    I also very rarely think about the rewards I might get from playing PvP, and I never play PvP just for the rewards. I play for fun - because PvP is fun. I love the challenge and the competition. Do I need any other reason for it? Winning a match or a tournament is as rewarding and meaningful to me as taking and holding a keep or a space station in open world PvP.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • booyashakabooyashaka Bananas, NFPosts: 5Member

    Time to make my annual post.

     

    I'm surprised Asheron's Call hasn't been brought up yet.. Well, maybe it was and I missed it. Either way, I'm quite suprised by the amount of people against open world pvp. I thought most people here would've preferred it and just tolerated instanced. Oh well, to each his own obviously.

    I think the issue, at least for me, is that there isn't much choice regarding open world pvp done nicely. I like MMOs and I like open world pvp.. does that mean I have to separate them and play a PvE MMO and an FPS? No...well, that's a theoretical "no", in practice, yes, I have to do that because there aren't many good options.

    There doesn't need to be arguing about each others preferences, we could have a game that supports both (PVP server and PVE servers). I really do think Asheron's Call was on the right track and it's a shame no companies have followed suit. Darkfall is nice, and wonderful for some I'm sure, but the FFA full loot is a harsh pill to swallow for many.

    I think partial loot (chance of losing something nice, but unlikely) is the best of both worlds and I'm saddened that not many people feel that way. 

     

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by booyashaka

    Time to make my annual post.

     

    I'm surprised Asheron's Call hasn't been brought up yet.. Well, maybe it was and I missed it. Either way, I'm quite suprised by the amount of people against open world pvp. I thought most people here would've preferred it and just tolerated instanced. Oh well, to each his own obviously.

    I think the issue, at least for me, is that there isn't much choice regarding open world pvp done nicely. I like MMOs and I like open world pvp.. does that mean I have to separate them and play a PvE MMO and an FPS? No...well, that's a theoretical "no", in practice, yes, I have to do that because there aren't many good options.

    There doesn't need to be arguing about each others preferences, we could have a game that supports both (PVP server and PVE servers). I really do think Asheron's Call was on the right track and it's a shame no companies have followed suit. Darkfall is nice, and wonderful for some I'm sure, but the FFA full loot is a harsh pill to swallow for many.

    I think partial loot (chance of losing something nice, but unlikely) is the best of both worlds and I'm saddened that not many people feel that way. 

     

    I think that is the way it was in lineage 2.. I really enjoyed that game.

     

    edit: referring to the partial loot mechanics.

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  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

    EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.

    SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.

     

    Ever since WoW, PvP has become pure trash. And to make matters worse, "World PvP" has become such a loose term that anything that is isn't completely structured and even is considered World PvP, e.g., SWTOR's Ilum - a dedicated area for PvP. This isn't World PvP. It's trash.

     

    Servers should go like this:

    Server #1 PvE (Optional Battlegrounds)

    Server #2 PvP (World PvP)

     

    I'll tell you why people waste time in these redundant battlegrounds. It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces. You want that little piece of reward that everyone will eventually have. It's boring. It's an embarrassment to the genre.

    I don't want to see anyone fail. However, it would be a lie to not say I enjoy watching these Instanced PvP games turn into failed FTP games.

    The amount of assumed superiority on open world PVP'ers is what amazes me.  Your method of playing an MMO is not "better" than anothers.  There is nothing wrong with instanced PVP.  While i personally enjoy open world and more importantly RvR style PVP ala DAOC, i don't begrudge the people who prefer instanced PVP.  I get it, its fun.  Its like playing CS:Source but with fantasy or something like that.

    Now, where i do agree with you is on the servers.  The only problem that arises with that is that you guys would be on the official forums bitching about population imbalances or lack of population because the reality is there aren't nearly as many of you as you think there are.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by booyashaka

    Time to make my annual post.

     

    I'm surprised Asheron's Call hasn't been brought up yet.. Well, maybe it was and I missed it. Either way, I'm quite suprised by the amount of people against open world pvp. I thought most people here would've preferred it and just tolerated instanced. Oh well, to each his own obviously.

    I think the issue, at least for me, is that there isn't much choice regarding open world pvp done nicely. I like MMOs and I like open world pvp.. does that mean I have to separate them and play a PvE MMO and an FPS? No...well, that's a theoretical "no", in practice, yes, I have to do that because there aren't many good options.

    There doesn't need to be arguing about each others preferences, we could have a game that supports both (PVP server and PVE servers). I really do think Asheron's Call was on the right track and it's a shame no companies have followed suit. Darkfall is nice, and wonderful for some I'm sure, but the FFA full loot is a harsh pill to swallow for many.

    I think partial loot (chance of losing something nice, but unlikely) is the best of both worlds and I'm saddened that not many people feel that way. 

     

    I would say the mayority in these forums prefer owpvp. That's what the OP is for as well. The problem with the OP is that he basically is saying instanced is trash, that's what many have a problem with.

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  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,117Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Sounds to me like the OP wants sheep to hunt (World PvP) and can't deal with fighting other wolves of equatable skill / gear (Instanced PvP).

    Sounds like you've never played a PvP game in your life. DAoC didn't have instanced PvP, and people were still of equal skill levels. Explain that.

    Then explain away the ganking squads, having stealth in PvP, no buffing of hit point, mana or skill levels to help make lowbies competitive, huge gear gaps between those who could afford the best crafted gear or raided Atlantis gears and powers over those who did not and the list goes on.  Multi-boxing buff bots and other issues too.  Nice way to try and take away my valid comment by impugning my history with PvP in games and your utter failure to prove otherwise.

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  • klerkklerk AARHUSPosts: 2Member

    Can someone explain to me what World pvp is?

     

    i've never played  AC or lineage so cant comment ón those. 

    But pvp servers in wow/swtor/aion/aoc allows People to kill People lots of places except  safe areas how is that not World pvp?

    It might not be good pvp but imo its more open World than daoc's which bears more resemblance to gw2's

     

     

     

     

     

     

    i normally post under klerken but forgot my PW and apparently my email is bound to this account

  • NetspookNetspook OsloPosts: 1,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Rhoklaw
    I'm sorry, but I couldn't help but notice the OP said WoW had trash PvP yet am I mistaken about WoW PvP servers actually being open world PvP? I could have sworn they were the last time I checked.

    Not really, no. Most of WoW's PvP is instanced, and most of it isn't very well balanced. It's a good example of a game that has PvP bolted onto it as an afterthought instead of built into the core.

     

    Wrong.

    Most of WoW's servers ARE open world PvP.

    And if anything "isn't very well balanced", then it's open world PvP, so I don't know why you complain about instanced. Balance issues is why I prefer instanced. Somewhat equal opponents in equal numbers is what makes PvP fun. That rarely exists at all in open PvP.

  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member
    Originally posted by remyburke
    I enjoy instanced PvP. :)

    I know.

    And that also makes instancing so weak.

    Now ,we are playing the same game and you send me a tell that you are having a good instanced fight,and i will ask,where are you?im coming.

    But in most cases that is not possible.

    Because theres a frikking joining program, firewall, a computer program or queue whatever preventing me to join,to help or to enjoy of that good fight.

    But in open world,game gives to a player lots of options.

     

     

     

     

    Let's internet

  • booyashakabooyashaka Bananas, NFPosts: 5Member

    Ganking is another interesting topic. 

    I can completely, 100% understand why someone would hate ganking. On the other hand, I wasn't that great in AC and I got my ass handed to me all the time, but I still didn't mind it. All it did was make me either go off and solo somewhere and try to get better or join up with my friends and travel in packs. In my opinion, it adds more depth to a game when you can actually lose something you don't want to lose and you don't get to to pick "all" of your fights. 

    That said, getting killed over and over again in the same spot would be annoying regardless. But I can't say that happened to me much, there always seemed to be choices you could make to get around it. There was always an anti-pk guild happy to come fight too. 

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    To anyone against world pvp I have two words to say: EVE Online. Best damn pvp system in recent generations, granted it isn't perfect and the derpy/bursty nature of the dreddit/SAF fleets make 0.0 against them almost  a losing proposition... you only really stand a chance if you're a russian billionaire who wants to bankroll an alliance -wink wink to anyone who knows EVE history-

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  • booyashakabooyashaka Bananas, NFPosts: 5Member

    Also, lop-sided/unbalanced fights were great as well! I think the way gearing works in most modern games seems to create this situation where fights are more predetermined by equipment than by player skill or circumstance. It doesn't have to be that way. 

    On that thought, I guess that's why pvping in AC was so fun. Someone's level wasn't the determining factor in whether you were going to win or lose a fight. Neither was the amount of people on either side. Now, seeing someone with a reputation running at you was something that could help you predict a fight. But isn't that good? It all helped create a good feeling of community.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by ForumPvP
    Originally posted by remyburke
    I enjoy instanced PvP. :)

    I know.

    And that also makes instancing so weak.

    Now ,we are playing the same game and you send me a tell that you are having a good instanced fight,and i will ask,where are you?im coming.

    But in most cases that is not possible.

    Because theres a frikking joining program, firewall, a computer program or queue whatever preventing me to join,to help or to enjoy of that good fight.

    But in open world,game gives to a player lots of options.

    Eh... You can join your friends on Steam quite easily. Also, if you are ready to see the effort to engage in open world PvP, travel to the location etc., why aren't you ready to just look the server up and join your friend?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • zomard100zomard100 karlovacPosts: 228Member
    Did you even tried any of this games? SWTOR have open world pvp on pvp servers, not only Ilum.Ah waste of my time ...bye
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    To anyone against world pvp I have two words to say: EVE Online. Best damn pvp system in recent generations, granted it isn't perfect and the derpy/bursty nature of the dreddit/SAF fleets make 0.0 against them almost  a losing proposition... you only really stand a chance if you're a russian billionaire who wants to bankroll an alliance -wink wink to anyone who knows EVE history-
    • 2 years in Eve
    • 3/4 of that in zero sec.
    • 1 year as an FC
    • 6 months as a co-CEO of a PvP corp
    • Not impressed
    • Still prefer instanced PvP
    If you think I wasn't playing with the right guys; two words: Black Legion.
     
    Can't say I haven't tried hard enough or that I speak out of ignorance.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • zomard100zomard100 karlovacPosts: 228Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    To anyone against world pvp I have two words to say: EVE Online. Best damn pvp system in recent generations, granted it isn't perfect and the derpy/bursty nature of the dreddit/SAF fleets make 0.0 against them almost  a losing proposition... you only really stand a chance if you're a russian billionaire who wants to bankroll an alliance -wink wink to anyone who knows EVE history-
    • 2 years in Eve
    • 3/4 of that in zero sec.
    • 1 year as an FC
    • 6 months as a co-CEO of a PvP corp
    • Not impressed
    • Still prefer instanced PvP
    If you think I wasn't playing with the right guys; two words: Black Legion.
     
    Can't say I haven't tried hard enough or that I speak out of ignorance.

    You wasn't playing with right guys, Black Legion?? YOu are serious?

  • time007time007 Houston, TXPosts: 488Member Uncommon

    To the Original Poster:

     

    Right on man.  You are preaching to the choir.  Right on. 

     

    To anyone who disagrees with the original poster:

     

    GTFO and go back to your online FPS and stop muddling around in our MMORPG's.  We don't need your intsant gratification/5 second rinse wash repeat crap in our games.  Get Shoebox PVP out of MMORPG's!!!!!!!  These aren't FPS shooters, go play Duke Nuke'em or something.  If you get ganked in Open World, well team up with some friends, roll a stealther, stick to the trees etc etc, the list goes on. 

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  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by zomard100
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    You wasn't playing with right guys, Black Legion?? YOu are serious?

    Hah. Who should I play with, then? The Southern losers? Goon clowns? Russkies? Northern Carebears? Pandemic douchés?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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