Whenever I want to switch MMOs, be it because I'm 'done' with the game or just want a change of scenery, I always run into the levels. I know why levels are there, but the whole idea of "Get through the leveling, the game starts at [insert max level here]." just turns me off. Lately I´ve been thinking on levels and possible alternatives, but haven´t really gotten that far. Nonetheless I´ll try to sum up my ideas anyway.
The definition of leveling: Gaining arbitrary experience to gain certain benefits, like unlocking content and skills, by doing either exploration, crafting, quests or killing monsters and players, with the ultimate goal of reaching a maximum level and do the hardest content the game has, the endgame (be it PvE or PvP).
First of all I asked myself (and others) why leveling was there. There were a lot of answers, all coming to basically the same conclusion: The endgame content is aimed at players who have learned to play well and have enough stat/skill points. Basically the game is gated in a way that you first have to put in an arbitrairy amount of time (the minimum time to level as implemented by developers) through mostly very easy content with badly designed quests often accompanied by a story that ranges from bad (general quests) to average/good (the overarching (zone) story quests).
Eventually I narrowed it down to a few questions I wanted answered, so here they are:
- What is the reason for levels to be implemented?
- What are the alternatives?
- What are the downfalls of either having levels and having an alternative way of progression?
The reasons for implementing levels as far as I have figured out are quite apparent. Leveling is the most well-known way of character progression and as one levels one can venture further into the world, overcome harder challenges and know that your avatar has become stronger. It's also something that keeps the player in the game. Reaching level 30 can be your goal today, tomorrow it might be 32 or even 33, and so on. I believe this mindset leads to people wanting to reach the maximum level and once there starting to enjoy the game. I know there's a lot of people that also enjoy the leveling, but there's always the 'endgame' lurking around the corner of every new level gained.
So what alternatives can there be? Are there alternatives that lead to people being able to enter something like a raid zone and do something, but maybe not as good or efficient as someone who has been playing longer or is more skilled. Alternatives which I thought might be viable, either alone or in combination with other progression mdoels, are the following:
- Gear level progression. Something recently seen in GW2 (play more with a weapon to unlock all its skills) and in the future to be seen in TESO (play more with a certain armour/weapon type to become better with those). At times this might feel grindy, but if it's this kind of system without the classic leveling there will at least be no gated content. Sure, you might be better or even be able to do something at all once you invested time to progress your character enough with a certain armour/weapon time, but there's nothing stopping you from trying and possibly even doing things the creators of the game deemed impossible. Also do note that I'm not talking about stats here, but about skill levels in using certain gear types.
- Stat progression. Something often used in the endgame, mainly you get new items every time and they have the possibility of having better stats, often depending on where you find them and the difficulty of the place you found it in. Seen a lot in hack and slash games the likes of Diablo and Torchlight. A huge pro to this is your character feels more powerful with every stat increase.
- Skill progression. Something that came to me when thinking of Guild Wars, the first one. Basically it means with more time played/time invested to complete certain challenges, people get new skills. Your character might not even become stronger by having those, but they will get something. Especially when a game has a lot of skills that can be mixed and matched at will for different purposes you will get a lot of theorycrafting. Imagine all skills in World of Warcraft, but no class restrictions and you can get them all by completing certain challenges. That'd give endless possibilities, especially when there's a limit to the amount you can use during a fight (a la TSW, 8 active and 8 passive if I recall correctly). Just keep in mind the limit might be higher/lower depending on design.
Those are all I could think of that can in any way be viable whilst playing long-term and with the possibility of adding content.
So what are the downfalls of each of those systems?
- Classic leveling locks away a lot of content and always gives the idea of having to move forward, not really letting you enjoy the game and the content currently progressing through. Also it makes a lot of the content irrelevant once reaching a certain level. We're seeing some initiative to tackle the problem (GW2 downleveling, RIFT mentoring, I'm sure there are others), but it still makes a lot of the content useless.
- Gear level progression gives a system that might be unforgiving for newer players when exploring the world, as there might not be clear indicators on which challenges are doable, which are easy and which are very hard. Also people with more time spent into the game have more options and for a new person to come in and wanting to be competitive they would probably have to focus on one set of gear and not on different sets. This of course doesn't matter if it's about casual players. Also character progression might not be as noticeable.
- Stat progressions really adds another gear-grind and locks away content behind arbitrary barriers of needing certain stats. It basically has the same problems as leveling, but leaves it open for players to attempt content that might not be totally impossible because of a slider that's further to the right for certain monsters. It would probably also lead to huge stat differences between people, which is bad for PvP (imbalance/gear-based) and PvE (limiting potential grouping playerbase to those who have comparable gear)
- Skill progression has as a downfall that it will be hard to balance a huge amount of skills as well as being highly sensitive to Flavour of the Month builds, where everyone competitive runs the same build until something better is found. Then again this might not even be the worst.
Those are my thoughts on the subject. What do you think? Any new insights? Is the classic leveling really dated or is it just me wanting to enjoy the full game immediately (and is that bad)? It turned out to be a lot longer than intended.
TL;DR: Is leveling as we know it a dated design? What are viable alternatives?
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...
Comments
Levels serve a variety of purposes. In some games, they're used to make it take longer to play through content, so that you have to pay the monthly fee more times in order to do the same amount of stuff. More recently, there's been a shift toward needing to buy stuff from the item mall to make it feel less grindy.
Another purpose is to try to ensure that players have some minimum level of competence by the time they get to the higher level content. Allowing players to do something stupid a zillion times to grind levels partially short-circuits this, though.
Sometimes levels are there to throw a bone to people who want to feel like they're progressing. Such people are a lot less common than they think they are, however. Game designers have figured this out, which is why games typically let you level a lot faster than they did a decade ago.
Sometimes levels are there to intentionally unbalance PVP. Some people have lots of free time and little skill, and want to be able to invest that free time in getting high level so that they can gank low level newbies. Or whine that the newbies who don't want to be ganked are carebears.
As for alternatives to having levels, how about not having levels? Who says that a game has to be all about grinding to get stronger?
Also, people who tell you that the real game starts at max level are usually lying to you. There are a handful of exceptions such as Guild Wars (1, not 2), but very few games have much interesting to do at max level that isn't also available at lower levels.
If you don't like the lower level stuff in a game, then quit and find another game. That's much better than grinding through stupid stuff for a while only to inevitably learn that you don't like the max level stuff, either. People who quit 5 minutes into a game are taking this too far, but if you've played a game for several hours, have a pretty good idea of what it has to offer, and don't like it, then it's not likely to get any better at max level. There are a handful of exceptions for some very complex sandbox games where you'll still be fairly lost several hours into a game and not able to evaluate it well just yet.
Levels are in almost all games.
kills have levels.
Gear or equipment have levels.
Some games just hide them better. These games are based on math and the higher the number, multiplier, skill, stat, ect the higher the level. It is
Does it matter if the content is gated by level, skill points, or gear?
Most of this is just in the way that players look at things. They are all the same.
--John Ruskin
Leveling may start getting old but unfortunately it's currently the best options we have now. Any game that makes awesome content through max level will get flak from players if the endgame isn't as spectacular or different from the leveling experience or the person simply skips content to level ASAP (GW2, WoW after WotLK, you wouldnt see people do the SV troll raid so often.)
On the other hand, if you leave all the cool stuff at endgame people will become bored or not having any other option but quest grind.
Every game will have levels and stats, it's just how well the devs hide it. Levels may see a revamp in the far future but it's the best we got now. The best way to make games more unique is to change the way players see levels in a game.
I personally believe games like Mabinogi or Runescape are doing a different approach to leveling. In Mabinogi you actually have to train the skill you want to level and usually obtain a book. Leveling up a skill gives you extra stats (Even musician skills for magic stats for example!)
Runescape has a leveling system that is all out grind (Not what I focus on at this moment.), but the quests they create are probably, in my opinion, some of the best in the MMO genre if you don't care about your Avatar having their own personality (YMMV even then). Doing these quests may unlock special items or skills.
From your 3rd (or 4th) paragraph it sounds like you feel most people think levels are simply there to facilitate an end game.
Levels are there for progression thats it, no other reason.
We like to get stronger in games, so there are levels. Doesn't matter whether it is gear, skills, classic levels or whatever else you can think of.
If there is progression in a game there will be a level of some kind. Yes even in horizontal progression: one person having three skills is more powerfull (at something and in some way) than someone having one skill.
Thats really the only reason - we like progression.
OK so i do not agree with any of you!!!
I LOVE lvls and lvling - call me weird - but some ppl are like me. Maybe not most but we still exist.
And if you take this from us then you leave us with nothing.
Take GW1 for example (yes i said it) - i didn't like it just because the game was the end game - u started at lvl cap of 20 and i tried, really tried playing it but the way it was made just annoyed the crap out of me.
It the wonder of going through a lvl progression where each lvl (or a few) you leanr something new and "unlock" more content - either skill/better gear etc.
I am sorry - any game i saw that didn't have that didn't intrest me at all (and excluding GW1 eventually failed)
True - most MMOs nowadays already failed regardless but that is off-topic....
Just my 2 cents...
Leveling is good in my opinion, HOWEVER as of the last few years developers screwed leveling up :
Leveling has to be slow in mmo's or you out level the people you play with. Making it not an mmo. That player you played with yesterday at level 10 is now level 45 all because you had to go to work !....Remember Vanilla WoW, EQ1 and EQ2 and so on ? Years ago you would stay in Westfall for several days making friends along the way.
Quest hubs - This is another thing that is screwing up mmos. Do two quest, then move on to the next hub. Your friends are three quest hubs above or below you. Good Example of quest hubs are Rift and Guild Wars 2 and AION.
Leveling is still good, Developers are bad. Nothing wrong with leveling. It's never been a problem in the past. No one would have even thought about it until as of late, but the problem has become apparent because of the above....How do they say it ? carrot-on-a-stick !
- Blizzard now levels you fast to get you to pay for expansions. Players are not asking for easy, thats a crock made up by Blizzard.
- Other mmos don't have the content to give you, so they have you move on quickly
Old and new players play for rewards and they see leveling up as a form of reward.
That's as simple as it can get.
It's also a kind of "training" for newer players not familiar with some basic RPG elements.
Some games tried to change the leveling system but ended up going back to the more traditional form because it's just too much code to try and do the more detailed approach to character role progression. It ended up going the hardcore niche route which we all know doesn't earn as much fans (and $$$).
The good-ol' debate which comes up regulary among us as well, since mostly all of my friends are from the "life starts at level cap" / "only game is endgame" group
Indeed, if you are one of them, levelling seems only a gating mechanism, with the sole purpose to hinder you from endgame (a.k.a. endless grind ). So ripping through them nasty levels, using powerlevel guides, xp boosters, etc. is a necessity to reach the "real game".
For me on the other hand, levelling is the main game beside rp'ing. More precisely the content, not the levels which are only numbers. TSW for example working fine without any character level numbering, let's forget QL levels for a minute . Of course there are numbers too, like the % of the unlocked skillwheel. There's no problem with numbers. I guess it's a good measure to monitor the progress, and that's why levels are part of mostly all rpg's since D&D.
I think your problem is not with the actual levels, but the implementation in present games. Since there are these numbers, it's easy for devs to use them, gating areas, directing the story, helping with a defined learning curve, etc. I admit, if devs overuse levels, the game will have an on-the-rails feeling and that's bad. But you can't skip levels entirely, even sandboxes has some kind of levels, and your examples have it as well (when the stat increase, or you unlock a new skill, it's like a soft level up, since it's opening new options / new possibilities)
"Is the classic leveling really dated or is it just me wanting to enjoy the full game immediately (and is that bad)?" It depends on the player's attitude. For me, it's not dated, I like to live my character in a well-written lore, and progress in time. For my buddies, and apparently for you, it's an unnecessary thing to waste the time instead of jumping right to the endgame (which is the main thing) That's not bad either, everyone's different
I actually like the use of levels.. As long as they are done right.. A prime example of this is WoW's newest expansion of how NOT to do levels.. I remember when I quit WoW, a 80th lvl tank with 30-45K health tank was damn good.. Then Cat was released and within 5 levels tanks were up to 150-200K? and now most 90lvl toons are walking around with 350K+ health.. Seriouslly? I hate when level disparity is so extreme that older players become GODZ in just a short time... EQ1 started having that same problem with PoP, and allowing players to defeat the Gods.. I just find that crazy..
Anyways, I like to see levels to be minor steps, very minor steps.. To the point that a max level character MIGHT end up being twice as strong as a 1st level newbie, but nothing more.. The reason why I like this is because it brings everyone closer to be social and able to group up, without some artifical means.. Imagine playing WoW and you have open world PvP, a max level toon will have an advantage against a newbie..... BUT.. It won't be a cake walk, in fact if there are a few newbies around that max level toon will end up taking a dirt nap.. This also gives lower level toons to join up and explore more of the game world without being 1 shotted by a high level mob.. Levels should be more about perks, then Godmode combat..
+1, we're exist
And second that, that was my problem with gw1 too. I tried it, and later gave a second chance to it after Factions, but the game just simply not 'worked' for me...
Or take AoC for example. It has a great content, I levelled up, dunno, maybe 5-6 alts and loved it. And then Funcom gave the lvl50 option to cater the powerlevel types, and then introduced offline levels... I don't mind it, since giving option is always a good thing, it just kinda sad that there's a demand, there are people who needs it for skipping the whole game.
I liked Star Wars Galaxies (pre-CU) and their system of content and levels. It didn't feel as limiting as today's MMOs feel with their class systems. In addition, SWG's end-game wasn't based on some gear grind. It was more about what you could accomplish with friends.
I think if a re-make of SWG would be successful, it would need to offer rewards for accomplishing things. SWG felt pointless beyond the social aspect of end-game. I wouldn't want to see gear as a reward, but maybe superior or exotic crafting materials would add to the entire game's crafting-based economy.
Agreed.. I'm not a fan of these gear grind MMO's they are pushing today.. As you stated about SWG, I would be ok if raid drops were about mats that can be sold and crafted by anyone.. If a smuggler gets ahold of a super rare crystal, he sells it if he wants, and that might lead someone crafting an epic lightsaber... I really loathe games that force characters into something they don't enjoy doing, for the sake of character progression.. I wonder how many raiders would bitch if the BEST gear only came from PvP arena rewards..
@OP....
Firstly I like you basic definition of level'ing. It is clear and concise as to not only the process but the reason for it....well, put.
Secondly, I could throw down my soap box (I actually have a soap box...3d model I made and took a pic of and did some COB'ing on) and talk about how Runescape already has a lot of what your looking for but I won't this time. Instead I want to try to express why I think levels exist and are nescessary.
When you are talking about these possible alternate forms of progression, the thing that stands out to me is that we would still need levels appended to those methods to keep track. Humans are actually really bad on average at keeping track of multiple things.
There is an experiment you can do with a friend that makes it really clear why we need to keep count and assign these denotions to things to begin with:
Get about 20 pennies (or beans or what ever else will work for this). Get a cup. sit down at a table with your friend and have them pick out a number of pennies with outn you knowing how much. to start... have them pick between 3-5 pennies. They put them in the cup 9again with out you seeing). and turn the cup over on the table (a little like with the game yahtzee). They then pick up the cup quickly and set it back down. The penies should be visible for about a half second to a second. Then you tell them how many were there. Next Slowly have your friend use higher and higher sets of numbers (4-6, 6-8, 8-12).
You will find that once you start getting into the 10-12-15 range (it varies from person to person). You will not only have trouble being able to say how many pennies were shown. You wil have trouble giving an answer at all, that isn't just a total guess or anywhere close to the real number present.
Now if you have your friend arrange penies in matching, clearly distinguishable groups (perhaps with one of the groups being different with the other, while using a sheet of paper or book to block your view, then lifting it briefly and setting it back down. You will find your able to keep track of up to 20-or even 30 penies accurately. This is because while we are bad at keeping track of more then (on average) 8 objects at any one time. We are good with groupings, We know what 5 things together looks like as a whole, and when we see 3 groups of 5 things, because we already recognize a grouping of 5 easily, our mind only have to keep track of how many groups, and if any are different. Then we (we do this naturally, associating names with it rather then just having a sense of it is the part that we are taught) add them up.
Here is my point really. We need levels in games to appease our brains. To keep track. Our minds love to keep track of number groupings. But I think we get frustrated with some MMO's (okay, maybe most) because, they tend to use a simplified/steamlined system, wherein one overall level is meant to keep track of multiple facets of game play. This makes it easy on us in one respect that it gives our minds some instant gratification. But humans are also over analytical and when we see something that works in general but has a lot of holes in what it covers it bothers us the more we think about it. We naturally want better justification and explination. I think we constantly try to re-invent the wheel in an effort to find a blance betwen what works on the surface and what makes sense on deeper levels of analysis.
As someone said a lot about this topic, i will share it with you. I will quote:
And there is even more.
Have a nice read.
The levels are like a barrier that we encounter everytime we want to do something in a game, we partially define other players just by looking at these numbers, we assign them to many things... you can kick 3 times harder or you can kick me 3 times more or you can make your kicks hurt for an additional 10 seconds, but your shoes still are 6 sizes smaller than mine.
These are the kind of things we need to keep track of and it feels like an impositive burden.
Why? Because they make me think of all the things that I really don't want to care about, they remind me that my favorite weapon will be useless after some time and that I will have to get a new one to replace it but this time with all this other new and increased stats, and when I get it... I won't really care about them because they are really, really boring.
There should instead be incomparable characteristics that help describe more meaningfull aspects about ourselves and about everything else. I would LOVE to keep track of those, wait...
What if I can't do it because they are too many or too complex? More complex than all those numbers or more life-like?
What if I don't feel that I am progressing? Do you really want games in wich progress only means: kicking harder each time?
I think I had enough of them, so I try to clear my view of all these counters whenever the game allows me to forget about them and you know... do my best to enjoy whatever else the games have to offer, until they figure out a better way.
Sounds like you want more meaning in life and your putting the effort to get that in the wrong place.
It's not an imposative burden... and it is a huge part of what makes an MMO a Game. You goto be able to win a game, or at least have the ability to clearly show your superiority. to wear it on your sleeves so to speak. And, games are about competativeness so thats ok.
You want to be liked for being you, completely independant of what you can do and unconditionaly?... get a dog.
I am proud of it, I consider myself an artist and I want games to be ART. Am I looking in all the wrong places? time will tell.
Edit: btw I already had one dog and I had to kill it (yes, it was suffering).
Games can have some artistic aspect... but games have to have rules and constraints to still be games... Games themselves cannot be art. That said an MMO doesn't nescessarily have to be a game. You can go do second life... But what you have an aptitude for matters there as well, just in a different way.
Thing is it is starting to sound like you just want a level playing field that ignores seniority...time put in, effort put in...you want to arrive on the scene and be equal to every one else...games, MMO's. life...nothing works like that.
That's true.
I still hate levels but it's true, they happen in all games and it's a method of allowing for repeatability. Same thing just x 5 and x 100 at 'end game'. Most games that tried to avoid levels fell on their face because they failed to give the player any way to guage power in the UI. The only way to find out the blue dragon was above your skill was to run up and get one shot by it.
What levels end up doing to a game is making most of it, done once, never done again though. Mobs, gear, if it goes grey it's junk. EVE has no levels. It's not as bogged down by this. My 60 mill SP char can still find use for the Bestower she could fly on day 3. Or the Rifter that can be replaced easier than a 200 mill Daredevil. Levels might make it easier for players and Devs but the cost to the game is huge.
Ortwig you hit on something there when you said it's as old as D&D...probably not the D&D your thinking of though. It is as Old as D&D the paper pencil table top one. Because, the first video game RPG's made that later became MUD's, MORG's/MORPG's, MMORPG's and finally sub-genre'ed out into a plethra of different types of MMO's...Those first RPG's were made as a digital emulation of D&D...A level and requirment heavy game from the 70's.
Levels are not only important, but they are core to what make Game MMO's what they are. When your talking about disposing of that in favor of some system that doesn't tell you anything about what is going on around you, your talking about going back to step 1 and making an rpg that in no way, shape or form resembles D&D. Then reworking it through various stages into an MMO...
Look...improve the level'ing system in games. Make level based stuff that makes more sense. But disposing of it is taking the Gaming out of our MMO's.
This isn't a call for gaming reform this is call for people to become Freegan-Anarchist-Snachronists in 3D environment.
What makes a game a game? What is meant to be ART?
Can art be a game or can a game be a work of art? Do you wish to deny that possibility?
I pursue it.
Oh, I'm definitely talking about tabletop roleplaying -- I grew up on the 1st editions of all those games. Yep, I'm an old-timer.
RuneQuest was the first skill-based RPG to arrive, and there definitely was a debate going on back in the 70's about skill-based vs. level systems. When Call of Cthulhu arrived it introduced a sanity mechanic that was also extolled. People were amazed you coould play a game where the monsters were generally more powerful than the players. You had to use your head to defeat them -- brute force would never work.
And that's the reason we ultoimately switched over to skill based systems such as RuneQuest, Stormbringer and Call of Cthulhu -- there was always a real sense of danger for your hero -- there was no feeling that your gear would always protect you; the smartest groups succeeded in their adventures. It was about brains, not brawn.
For a little history on the whole thing, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Role-Playing