Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

F2P is the Future!

123468

Comments

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    You tell 'em.  Paying for your entertainment is so passe.  We demand free stuff!

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by dave6660
    You tell 'em.  Paying for your entertainment is so passe.  We demand free stuff!

    We don't have to demand. There is plenty of dev want to compete for our attention with free stuff. I don't see why we shouldn't take advantage of it.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon

    Micro transactions can work as long as you business model isn't predicated upon "ripping people off".

    League of Legends is one of the most successful F2P micro transaction based games. BUT, they allow you to play for free and to grind out points very slowly to earn champs instead of buying them with money. That's why it succeeds, there is no solid wall that you hit and can't continue for free. Champions rotate so you get a taste of different ones and aren't stuck with the same ones for 3 years.

    A horrible example of microtransactions is D3 which was built upon screwing the players in terms of itemization to drive them to the RMAH. Had the RMAH been a bonus option for those who weren't willing to grind out gear, then it would have been fine. But blizz really botched it when they chose to have horrible gear (aka gear that isn't good enough to help you through the content that is dropping said gear) then you get the hate and the quick mass exodus.

    Freemium can be done poorly, usually by locking certain things away that should never be locked away . . . like hotbars or skill slots or by locking content by requiring purchases instead of allowing a slow gring to unlock it.

  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member

    Personally I don't think that either the subscription model or the "free to play" model are the future at all.

    I'm guessing that ZeniMax Online will release TESO with a subscription fee, thinking that the game is "different" enough from WoW to justify a return to that model. Many believe that sub games are failing because they are "too alike WoW", but I don't think that's true. What we have to consider is that - outside of WoW - there are no major subscription titles in the west, and there never have been. Eve is the closest thing to a "competitor" to WoW, and even it is having trouble breaking the 1,000,000 mark. If/When ZMO release TESO under a sub model, it will fail, and then hopefully there will be a realisation that subscription fees - in their current form, at least - are not a viable model to follow.

    Does this mean that "Free to Play" is the model of choice for the future of the genre? No. The problem the "Free to Play" model has is that it is wildly varied in its representation. Where one developer may fund itself using a relatively fair and transparent model (League of Legends), another will pursue a wholely more exploitative approach (SWTOR). That isn't to say the F2P model in and of itself is bad, just that it is open to exploitation more so than any other model of payment. You just have to look at this site, and other sites, to see what the general consensus is on the F2P model. Even though there are great games out there applying the model intelligently, such as LoL, TF2, TA, etc, we are more inclined to remember the fact that there are games employing the model to wantonly exploit us.

    So if P2P and F2P are not going to work, what will? Quite simply: traditional "Buy to Play" is the model we're probably going to see more of in the coming years. ArenaNet proved a point with Guild Wars 2: box sales can fuel a games life cycle and return significant margins. If we look at the single player market, we can see that developers such as Bethesda, CD Projeckt RED, DICE and other such names are favouring long content life cycles through DLC. This can easily be translated to the MMO space: release a boxed game at a premium price, and then follow a traditional "expansion" life cycle with 6-monthly or yearly releases charged at typical "expansion" prices, perhaps with DLC content thrown around along the way.

    The problem we have right now is that the management executives at big studios - management teams that have no understanding of the market they operate in, as has previously been pointed out - are nickle and diming gamers in order to see "what they can get away with". Developers are passionate about making games, but invariably not passionate about running a business. This role is deferred to people who are passionate about business, but invariably not passionate about games.

    As has been stated, someone needs to stir up some trouble in the industry.

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon

    I think microtransactions are evil! Unless they are for silly things like customizing your characters looks. But when they impede my enjoyment of a game I just feel ripped off and quit. I don't like feeling like I am being nickel and dimed. F2P in it's current form across the majority of games is just not acceptable to me. And sub games with cash shops that give you a one up on others its just disgusting.

    Also, I wish people wouldn't compare LoL to all these F2P games. LoL does not restrict you. By the time you can even do ranked games, or should I say by the time you can actually compete in ranked games you have already earned enough free IP to purchase a couple rune pages, multiple characters, and all the runes you need. The only thing you really would want to pay for if you are hooked are the skins! I've never felt ripped off by LoL because they don't sell anything I NEED to enjoy the game. Just things I WANT. IE; in some mmo's to keep up they want you to pay for enhanced experience bonuses, or they want you to pay so something is completed quicker. In LoL you can get experience faster, but whoopee dooooo. If anything that only hurts you as now you are at a higher level, and have LESS than those at the same level as you. Therefore, the XP bonus hurts you. 

    Now to Wayshuba, I see no reason why you wouldn't share the speakers name from a conference. It makes no sense and only leads me to believe that you are making a story up. For one, he held a conference to educate and get a message out. You really believe he wants his message spread but does not want his name associated with it? What is this some sort of underground neo-nazi leader who is actually a politician and needs to hide his relation? Sorry, I have seen too many movies. Regardless, I call BS on your "conference". No one holds a public or private conference that hundreds of people can attend on such a typical topic only to want their names held back. For those wondering, in his thread he refused to share the name.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member

    Someone posted this on another forum, but I had to laugh.

    This is F2P, the boxes they sell in most F2P cash shop games are now just lucky boxes, many games are basically nothing more than casino with some content around it, it's no longer about the game, the game revolves around teh cash shop.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Unless the company is non profit you will always get what you pay for. If you are enjoying a game that is truly free to play then great, games ate meant for fun.

    Saying that all MMOs should become or be F2P is hopefully not going to happen. The quality will go down. There's no denying that. With no or unreliable income companies will do what they need to in order to stay in business.
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,453Member Uncommon

    Yes f2p is so grand,i love seeing chat spammed with kina sales every 5 seconds and stalls setup to sell game currency.How about go try Eve and enter the noob chat,the ISk selling posam is so bad,you won't have a god's prayer of seeing anything in the chat window,except scrolling spam.

    F2p -=piss poor sup[port and GM,might as well say Gm's don't exist.Players can bot and setup rmt stalls right in the open for everyone to see,it is because nobody cares.

    NCSOFT always has been a huge reason why f2p is a complete joke.They are a bad influence for all developers.When i see a level 10 item in Aion selling for millions of Kina,i just shake my head in disbelief at how careless a developer can get.If a developer does not care one bit about their games environment,why shoud lanyone care about their game?

    That is why i quit supporting the COD franchise,when cheating got so bad and there was not one avenue to reprt cheating,i knew they did not care.This is happening far too often now and it is because without a monthly sub fee,these devs have nothing to lose at all,if you bought the game,they already have that.


    Samoan Diamond

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    Yes f2p is so grand,i love seeing chat spammed with kina sales every 5 seconds and stalls setup to sell game currency.How about go try Eve and enter the noob chat,the ISk selling posam is so bad,you won't have a god's prayer of seeing anything in the chat window,except scrolling spam.

    F2p -=piss poor sup[port and GM,might as well say Gm's don't exist.Players can bot and setup rmt stalls right in the open for everyone to see,it is because nobody cares.

    NCSOFT always has been a huge reason why f2p is a complete joke.They are a bad influence for all developers.When i see a level 10 item in Aion selling for millions of Kina,i just shake my head in disbelief at how careless a developer can get.If a developer does not care one bit about their games environment,why shoud lanyone care about their game?

    That is why i quit supporting the COD franchise,when cheating got so bad and there was not one avenue to reprt cheating,i knew they did not care.This is happening far too often now and it is because without a monthly sub fee,these devs have nothing to lose at all,if you bought the game,they already have that.

     Or WoW where there is a tell/shout for gold every 5 mintues, or EQ2 where someone advertises selling a gamecard every 10 minutes.  Oh wait, those are p2p and freemium. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member
    For terrible games that couldn't justify the sub price...well because they were terrible, yes F2P is the future for such games. But is F2P the future of the MMO genre?... I doubt it. All its gonna take is one game  to really put up a nice feature list (not Quest, Dungeon/Raid.. BG..Rinse/repeat with next expansion/content update) and be sub based and it will pick back up again. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    I don't get this whole F2P is the future either.  It is the present, we don't need prophets to tell us what is going on now.  I'm not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing.   Even worse we have the games where you have b2p with cash shops, and the worst of all milking methods: box + sub + cash shop.  F2P isn't even the worst of the monetizing methods in MMOs, and that is sad.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by madazz

    I think microtransactions are evil! Unless they are for silly things like customizing your characters looks. But when they impede my enjoyment of a game I just feel ripped off and quit. I don't like feeling like I am being nickel and dimed. F2P in it's current form across the majority of games is just not acceptable to me. And sub games with cash shops that give you a one up on others its just disgusting.

    Also, I wish people wouldn't compare LoL to all these F2P games. LoL does not restrict you. By the time you can even do ranked games, or should I say by the time you can actually compete in ranked games you have already earned enough free IP to purchase a couple rune pages, multiple characters, and all the runes you need. The only thing you really would want to pay for if you are hooked are the skins! I've never felt ripped off by LoL because they don't sell anything I NEED to enjoy the game. Just things I WANT. IE; in some mmo's to keep up they want you to pay for enhanced experience bonuses, or they want you to pay so something is completed quicker. In LoL you can get experience faster, but whoopee dooooo. If anything that only hurts you as now you are at a higher level, and have LESS than those at the same level as you. Therefore, the XP bonus hurts you. 

    Now to Wayshuba, I see no reason why you wouldn't share the speakers name from a conference. It makes no sense and only leads me to believe that you are making a story up. For one, he held a conference to educate and get a message out. You really believe he wants his message spread but does not want his name associated with it? What is this some sort of underground neo-nazi leader who is actually a politician and needs to hide his relation? Sorry, I have seen too many movies. Regardless, I call BS on your "conference". No one holds a public or private conference that hundreds of people can attend on such a typical topic only to want their names held back. For those wondering, in his thread he refused to share the name.

    LOl .. i agree with madazz for once. Conferences are public events. Many are advertised. I don't see a scenario where even teh conference name should be hidden.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,752Member Uncommon
        Some people just arent happy unless they have to pay alot of money right of the bat for their MMO.......If they dont have to pay a box+sub+cash shop+lifetime then they feel they have been cheated and the game sucks......
  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILPosts: 1,154Member Common
    Originally posted by NorseGod

    What happened?

     

    I see lots of complaints about the "free" games here.

    It's not good change - that's the problem.  My 2 cents.  I don't want to beat a dead horse and remind the other grownups as to why F2P games are just horribly represented.  I'll stick with companies that have faith in their product.  Granted - to argue against myself, I will admit that the DDO model isn't bad  - but I hate most others.

    image
  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Theocritus

    In what way do people want to pay more money? It might depend on what type of player I am. If I want to stick to one game then yes, I want to play a quality game and pay money for it.

    On the other hand if I'm juggling five MMOs, which there is nothing wrong with, then I probably don't want to pay for them as that would get expensive. Either way it's up to the player to decide what's right for their time and money.

    Saying people want to pay money in order to feel like it's quality may be true in some cases but that has to do with the psyche of said individual. Bottom line is that a quality MMO needs money to continue to be a quality MMO. Aion is a good example. If it wasn't doing so well in Korea do you think they would settle for complete F2P for the West? I think not.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Theocritus

    In what way do people want to pay more money? It might depend on what type of player I am. If I want to stick to one game then yes, I want to play a quality game and pay money for it.

    On the other hand if I'm juggling five MMOs, which there is nothing wrong with, then I probably don't want to pay for them as that would get expensive. Either way it's up to the player to decide what's right for their time and money.

    Saying people want to pay money in order to feel like it's quality may be true in some cases but that has to do with the psyche of said individual. Bottom line is that a quality MMO needs money to continue to be a quality MMO. Aion is a good example. If it wasn't doing so well in Korea do you think they would settle for complete F2P for the West? I think not.

    And it is not very useful dismissing f2p games as low quality. It is about fun .. and often you don't need the most fun game, just one that is fun enough.

    Sure i like the Avenger more than an average episode of Arrow. But since watching Arrow is free, and that it is fun ENOUGH, i will watch it too.

    I don't think a F2P needs to be the most fun thing on earth to be successful, and given their popularity, many are fun "enough".

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    And it is not very useful dismissing f2p games as low quality. It is about fun .. and often you don't need the most fun game, just one that is fun enough.

    Sure i like the Avenger more than an average episode of Arrow. But since watching Arrow is free, and that it is fun ENOUGH, i will watch it too.

    I don't think a F2P needs to be the most fun thing on earth to be successful, and given their popularity, many are fun "enough".

    Ahhhh, ok. Now I'm starting to understand you a bit more. Fun "enough", huh? See that's another of way saying you're just settling. Personally, I can understand killing some time with a good "enough" game on some shitty phone or tablet while waiting for the wife to finish up shopping, but to settle for good "enough" at my age with a full time job at home with my PC with thousands of dollars of equipment. Aint gonna happen.

    I am by no means in search of some non-existent perfect game, but no way am I settling for "ahhhh, it's good enough". Too many consumers pull that nonsense and we all end up with terrible products.

    Your post was very telling, Mr. Seldon. 

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    As I said before, if you're having fun, or "fun enough", then that's great as games are supposed to be fun. The argument here is whether F2P is the future of MMOs. I'm in the camp that hopes this is not the case because quality is important to me. You can tell the difference really easily.

    The ironic thing is that although I have little time to play MMOs I have been playing PS2 for free and having a blast. I die a lot, more due to my lack of FPS experience than Cert gain, but it doesn't matter that I don't get things a quickly as subs do. So you are correct, the fun factor is king, but in my case it's with a freemium game that has certain price gates and because of them PS2 is a high quality game.

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Long Island, NYPosts: 480Member Uncommon

    SInce we are talking quality.

     

    F2P games are not the games that started off with the budget of a sub game and went freemiun.

     

    Have a look at the perfect world games. There is a reason why none of them are voted in the top 10.

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member
    Originally posted by NorseGod

    What happened?

     

    I see lots of complaints about the "free" games here.

     

    The future? What? F2P is the here and now while sub only games have dried up to just a handful of titles. Of course everyone is complaining. It's an internet forum. What's wrong with you dude? ;)

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member

    This is how payment model is, since people asked about spending and some people will say "why can't I spend how I want".

     

    P2P:

    $15

     

    F2P at launch:

    $0 (player A through F)----> $ 30 (player G, H, I)------> $ 100 (player J, K)-----> $1000 (player L)

     

    Now who do you think the developer cares about most, player A through F or player L who spends $1000 on their game a month (and make no mistake about it, these people exist, what is $1000 to you is $10 to a millionaires kid).

    Player A through F is just there for one reason, to play with player L, but after player L has made his clique and found his guild, usually with other rich people, the developers realise they don't need player A through F anymore, and they keep increasing the power of cash shop items to get all the money they can from player L.

    That's how F2P work and it's disgusting frankly, I don't like F2P anymore.

  • ariasaitchoariasaitcho Rapid City, SDPosts: 112Member

    What really irritates me about the whole "F2P sucks" argument: the examples of "F2P" games are games that converted to a F2P model. In other words, the publisher is trying to squeeze every last dime out of the game before it dies and think they can trick more people into playing (and spending money) on a crappy game with the F2P model. The exapmles of F2P cited every time: SWToR, LOtR, etc. Those are not F2P games! They are crappy games that failed with their original business model.

     

    Then there are the people who wax poetic about how they love grinding for stuff in WoW, but diss any F2P game because it's a "grindfest". Wait, wut? It matters not if you're grinding for rare item x or for levels, it's still a grind.

     

    Yes, there are plenty of F2P games that are poorly designed, ill concieved, and badly implemented. But the same is just as true of P2P too. Just because there are examples of bad games does not mean that the business model is a bust.

     

    "F2P is a ripoff desigend to squeeze the maximum cash from gamers"; lol. This argument always amuses me especially when coming from a WoW fanboy. Lets use the WoW model, shall we? Go to retailer, buy box for $40-80, install game, go to web site to create account, pay $15 per month for sub with the understanding that the sub is how new content will be paid for, when new content is released pay $20-50 for access to content that was supposedly already paid for with the sub, repeat ad nauseum. (insert cash register sfx here) Sure plenty of F2P games can squeeze more out of a player per month than P2P games using the WoW model. But long term, companies make more money out of more players (thus achieving greater profits) than do companies using F2P. Just because the grip isn't tight, doesn't mean you aren't getting squeezed.

    image
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    This is how payment model is, since people asked about spending and some people will say "why can't I spend how I want".

     

    P2P:

    $15

     

    F2P at launch:

    $0 (player A through F)----> $ 30 (player G, H, I)------> $ 100 (player J, K)-----> $1000 (player L)

     

    Now who do you think the developer cares about most, player A through F or player L who spends $1000 on their game a month (and make no mistake about it, these people exist, what is $1000 to you is $10 to a millionaires kid).

    Player A through F is just there for one reason, to play with player L, but after player L has made his clique and found his guild, usually with other rich people, the developers realise they don't need player A through F anymore, and they keep increasing the power of cash shop items to get all the money they can from player L.

    That's how F2P work and it's disgusting frankly, I don't like F2P anymore.

    No.  Players A through K usually don't give a rats behind about player L.  None of them are there to play with player L, all of them are there for a variety of reasons some of which are playing with a few other people.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon

    And the future is so bright I have to wear shades...

     

    No, but really, F2P can suck it. Give me my monthly sub and let have everything the game has to offer.

     

    I am not impressed by these models that allow me to sub yet I have to get whatever kind of "bucks" the company uses to nickle and dime the customers with in their shops.

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    This is how payment model is, since people asked about spending and some people will say "why can't I spend how I want".

     

    P2P:

    $15

     

    F2P at launch:

    $0 (player A through F)----> $ 30 (player G, H, I)------> $ 100 (player J, K)-----> $1000 (player L)

     

    Now who do you think the developer cares about most, player A through F or player L who spends $1000 on their game a month (and make no mistake about it, these people exist, what is $1000 to you is $10 to a millionaires kid).

    Player A through F is just there for one reason, to play with player L, but after player L has made his clique and found his guild, usually with other rich people, the developers realise they don't need player A through F anymore, and they keep increasing the power of cash shop items to get all the money they can from player L.

    That's how F2P work and it's disgusting frankly, I don't like F2P anymore.

    No.  Players A through K usually don't give a rats behind about player L.  None of them are there to play with player L, all of them are there for a variety of reasons some of which are playing with a few other people.

    Yes they are ,that's the exact reason a vindictus developer said they keep the non-paying players in-game, to play with the paying gamer, they even mentioned this in the chinese MMO ducumentary someone linked.

    Give me one good reason why they would keep players in game who don't pay anything outside of making the world feel alive and entertaining the players who pay.

    You will come up without a good reason, that is the reason they are there, and once the paying players are hooked into the game, there is no reason to keep supporting the non-paying players which is why the cash shop items always increase in power, usually under constant dicontent of the playerbase.

    I know you're a fan of F2P, but you have to admit how bad this model is.

    The only reason the non-paying players in F2P games are there is to entertain the paying customers in the beginning of the game. They serve no other function, they tend to leave the game rather quickly when developer start to unbalance the game and add more cash shop items, and the increase in cash shop items and power of those items is to get more and more money from the paying player.

    In a P2P game without cash shop, every player is of equal importance, which is the reason these games last much longer than F2P games, even though F2P games tend to make more money.

     

    I think it's hilarious people believe this model will last, F2P is doomed to fail in MMO because more and more players realise how bad, unbalanced, unfair, and expensive this model is.  While F2P have many players in the beginning, they die in a matter of weeks.

Sign In or Register to comment.