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[Column] Star Wars: The Old Republic: The Burden of Freedom

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Comments

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal st clair shores, MIPosts: 809Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PWN_FACE

    Yeah, I was actually stupid enough to sub about a month ago to give this game one more try because I want to play an online Star Wars game.

     

    But I will just come out and say it. Even with a sub this game sucks. It is a boring tedious grind in a lifeless repetetive world, planet after planet. I forced myself to play for 3-4 days. Then I just gave up and uninstalled. Done. They couldn't pay me to play this game.

     

    I'm sad and bitter that this is the only online Star Wars game we got from f---king Bioware. Huge disappointment. Did this site really give SWTOR an 8.7? Really?

     

    Thats your opinion, and we have a right t ours there are alot of people who actually enjoy the game.... Just like GW2 or Halo I can't stand either and some people love it but do I go on their forums to  bash it no! SO I don;t get why you think you can do it just to troll..

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Anyone find the title of this thread ironic considering it is about a mmo that probably gives you the least amount of freedom of any mmo to date, the most linear, instanced and corridory mmo I've played.
  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal

    People are just mad that everything is NOT free its free to play because you get the same stuff that people who paid 150 bucks for the game so the people who should be upset is that you only need to spend 5 bucks to get preferred and have the same stuff as some one who bought CE so stop the whining.

    Untrue. People who - like me - paid $150 on release to play the game, along with subsequent sub fees, actually don't get anything for their former payments. We still have to pay to unlock UI bars, we still have to pay to raise the cap on credits, we still have to pay should we wish to wear any NEW epic items, and we still have to pay to raise the basic limitation that exist on free accounts.

    Basically what has happened is this: I was sold a product a year ago at X price, and the price included X. The price was for the game files, the various elements of the UI, and everything I would need to play the game. The sub fee I then paid was merely to gain access to the server. All of those things I PREVIOUSLY PAID FOR have been wrapped up in the F2P microtransaction store, and I am now being told I have to pay for them again.

    And as for the complimentary cartel coins we were "awarded" for having spent the money previously on the game... we have to pay for at least one months worth of sub under F2P to be granted those coins. So again, we've not actually been given anything for our $150.

    So no, people aren't whining because they "don't get everything for free", and they certainly aren't whining because they don't get the same stuff as someone who paid for the CE (or any version of the game) previously... because the people who paid previously don't actually get anything :)

    People who never bought the game should be  happy they didnt spend 150 bucks or even 70. Gamers today just want everything for free and the xp thing is in alot of MMo's that are free, the only thing I disgree with for you guys that are F2p is Quickslots I think should be free and gear I think thats silly to make you pay for gear to even get.

    Again, you are misrepresenting the argument to your own ends (seemingly you want to fanboy EA and SWTOR). What you fail to grasp is the huge difference between the "F2P" options present in other games, and the F2P option present in SWTOR. Certainly there are similarities, but there are things going on in the SWTOR option that have never been done by other F2P games. Like, for example, having to spend money to unlock basic UI elements, or having to spend money to hide your head slot item, or having to buy a license to equip epic gear.

    The prices are also massive high. Other F2P games pitch themselves as saying, "you can spend $15 a month on our game and be in a similar position to a sub game, and then you can spend more IF YOU WANT TO." In SWTOR, spending $15 a month on the game won't even unlock half the game for you. You have to spend a lot more than that to get to a similar level to those paying the subscription fee.

    So I see some thingsbioware needs to be fixed for you free to play players. A sub is 15 bucks that is nothing, so I don't get te problem, I rather sub to a game and enjoy what ever I want with out roadblocks..

    It is nothing to you. You obviously enjoy the game a lot. Your English suggests that you are well within the target demographic that Bioware has cornered for this game, so you are obviously going to pay the $15 a month that they are asking for.

    Other people ARE NOT willing to pay that fee. Bioware converted the game to F2P in response to that, but what they achieved was a much more expensive and restrictive experience for those players, an attempt to force them into paying the sub fee. Now we can debate the idea that people should "just pay the fee if they want to play", but the core issue is this: Bioware have marketed a free to play game, and it isn't free to play.

    If Bioware want us to pay the sub fee, and don't want us to play for free, they SHOULD NOT market the game as being "free to play". They should not attempt to jump on the bandwagon if they are not willing to cater to the audeince that plays those games, and are not willing to adhere to implied market standards in the F2P arena. The error is theirs, not ours, and they will suffer for it!

    15 bucks is a cheap Hobby so I don't get why people complain about a sub...

    The ability to see things from the perspective of others is the mark of an intelligent man. The fact that you "do not get" why people wouldn't want to pay $15 a month on a product they do not feel is worth $15 a month (for a variety of reasons) is unsurprising :)

     

  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal
    Originally posted by PWN_FACE

    Yeah, I was actually stupid enough to sub about a month ago to give this game one more try because I want to play an online Star Wars game.

     

    But I will just come out and say it. Even with a sub this game sucks. It is a boring tedious grind in a lifeless repetetive world, planet after planet. I forced myself to play for 3-4 days. Then I just gave up and uninstalled. Done. They couldn't pay me to play this game.

     

    I'm sad and bitter that this is the only online Star Wars game we got from f---king Bioware. Huge disappointment. Did this site really give SWTOR an 8.7? Really?

     

    Thats your opinion, and we have a right t ours there are alot of people who actually enjoy the game.... Just like GW2 or Halo I can't stand either and some people love it but do I go on their forums to  bash it no! SO I don;t get why you think you can do it just to troll..

    Just because he disagrees with you, and makes points about how he disagrees with you, does not mean he's trolling :) It is more likely that he actually disagrees with you.

    Also, you do not own these forums. It is a mark of facism to restrict opinions based on setting and context. He is perfectly within his rights to express negative opinions about SWTOR on ANY SWTOR boards if he wishes to. It's called Freedom of Speech, and it is a democratic ideal that our ancestors fought bloody wars to secure. We are not about to throw it away over a video game.

    Deal with it, or... if you're so against it... form a far right political party based on facism and extremism to further your despotic ambitions. :)

  • aWRAYaWRAY Elk Grove, CAPosts: 84Member
    And then, there is always someone who tells other people not to voice their opinions about a product that failed to deliver. Yes, people are upset. I would be too if I had bought the game and subbed.
  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 1,930Member Common
    Originally posted by dotdotdash
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal

    People are just mad that everything is NOT free its free to play because you get the same stuff that people who paid 150 bucks for the game so the people who should be upset is that you only need to spend 5 bucks to get preferred and have the same stuff as some one who bought CE so stop the whining.

    Untrue. People who - like me - paid $150 on release to play the game, along with subsequent sub fees, actually don't get anything for their former payments. We still have to pay to unlock UI bars, we still have to pay to raise the cap on credits, we still have to pay should we wish to wear any NEW epic items, and we still have to pay to raise the basic limitation that exist on free accounts.

    Basically what has happened is this: I was sold a product a year ago at X price, and the price included X. The price was for the game files, the various elements of the UI, and everything I would need to play the game. The sub fee I then paid was merely to gain access to the server. All of those things I PREVIOUSLY PAID FOR have been wrapped up in the F2P microtransaction store, and I am now being told I have to pay for them again.

    And as for the complimentary cartel coins we were "awarded" for having spent the money previously on the game... we have to pay for at least one months worth of sub under F2P to be granted those coins. So again, we've not actually been given anything for our $150.

    So no, people aren't whining because they "don't get everything for free", and they certainly aren't whining because they don't get the same stuff as someone who paid for the CE (or any version of the game) previously... because the people who paid previously don't actually get anything :)

    People who never bought the game should be  happy they didnt spend 150 bucks or even 70. Gamers today just want everything for free and the xp thing is in alot of MMo's that are free, the only thing I disgree with for you guys that are F2p is Quickslots I think should be free and gear I think thats silly to make you pay for gear to even get.

    Again, you are misrepresenting the argument to your own ends (seemingly you want to fanboy EA and SWTOR). What you fail to grasp is the huge difference between the "F2P" options present in other games, and the F2P option present in SWTOR. Certainly there are similarities, but there are things going on in the SWTOR option that have never been done by other F2P games. Like, for example, having to spend money to unlock basic UI elements, or having to spend money to hide your head slot item, or having to buy a license to equip epic gear.

    The prices are also massive high. Other F2P games pitch themselves as saying, "you can spend $15 a month on our game and be in a similar position to a sub game, and then you can spend more IF YOU WANT TO." In SWTOR, spending $15 a month on the game won't even unlock half the game for you. You have to spend a lot more than that to get to a similar level to those paying the subscription fee.

    So I see some thingsbioware needs to be fixed for you free to play players. A sub is 15 bucks that is nothing, so I don't get te problem, I rather sub to a game and enjoy what ever I want with out roadblocks..

    It is nothing to you. You obviously enjoy the game a lot. Your English suggests that you are well within the target demographic that Bioware has cornered for this game, so you are obviously going to pay the $15 a month that they are asking for.

    Other people ARE NOT willing to pay that fee. Bioware converted the game to F2P in response to that, but what they achieved was a much more expensive and restrictive experience for those players, an attempt to force them into paying the sub fee. Now we can debate the idea that people should "just pay the fee if they want to play", but the core issue is this: Bioware have marketed a free to play game, and it isn't free to play.

    If Bioware want us to pay the sub fee, and don't want us to play for free, they SHOULD NOT market the game as being "free to play". They should not attempt to jump on the bandwagon if they are not willing to cater to the audeince that plays those games, and are not willing to adhere to implied market standards in the F2P arena. The error is theirs, not ours, and they will suffer for it!

    15 bucks is a cheap Hobby so I don't get why people complain about a sub...

    The ability to see things from the perspective of others is the mark of an intelligent man. The fact that you "do not get" why people wouldn't want to pay $15 a month on a product they do not feel is worth $15 a month (for a variety of reasons) is unsurprising :)

     

    ^

     

    Well said in refuting a posters false claims.

  • ThebigthrillThebigthrill Eastpointe, MIPosts: 117Member
    Originally posted by zomard100
    Strange i see full servers and  fleet station. Only WOW  have more players for now. It is still best mmorpg today after wow, at least you have something to do and not only 4 buttons to push on bar like some new titles. I know, i know everything is fail when you watch forum allo day long :)

    I could create a mmorpg, i cold cap the servers at 250 max players and call it full also.

    "Don't tell me what to do! , you're not my mod"

    Saying invented by me.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,195Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by L0C0Man
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    That's the problem right there, I suppose. Free-to-play is about convenience, and instead of monetizing convenience, SWTOR monetizes the removal of inconveniences they've purposely added to drive otherwise rational-thinking folk insane.

    I had to laugh at that paragraph because it was a bit of what I was thinking when I finally logged in last night.

    Came back from Thanksgiving with the g'friend and noticed my SWToR download was FINALLY finished.

    "ok, now to jump in and see where i left off!"

    I log in and see my character wearing some god awful helmet. Hmmm, don't remember ever having that, let's see if I can turn it off.

    As a point of note, I'm generally all for "not" having to turn off a helmet and if one doesn't want one then they just do without. But since aesthetics are important to me and since SWToR has a feature where I can turn off their horrible outfit design for the head; I must have taken advantage of that feature early on as I never remembered my character with headgear.

    And then it started my search to turn this thing off. "I remember being able to do this? I must have been able to do this as I don't ever remember wearing head gear".

    It turns out that I must spend coins (or whatever their currency is) in order to hide my head gear. To remove the inconvenience of looking atrocious.

    I dont' recall anyone from star wars wearing a helmet other than Darth Vader and Boba Fett so I'm pretty adamant about not having it. "Can I do without the helmet or do I really need one as it will be the make or break piece of gear for insured success?"

    It's a very silly point and really minor in the scheme of things and I'm probably the only person who is bothered by this but I really hate that head gear.

    I can't wait to experience the frustration of adding a hot bar!!!!

    And the stormtroopers... and the imperial gunners (those guys with the huge goofy looking helmets that were around the Death Star)... and the TIE pilots (wore stormtrooper looking helmets but black)... and severla bounty hunters (and by extension Leia and Lando when they disguised themselves as bounty hunters in RotJ... but yeah, I do agree with your point of it being lame to have to pay for the option to hide helmets.. :)

    Lol, thank god I'm not the only obsessive geek who went down that exact list and eventually came to the same conclusion.  :p

    Anyway, the TOR model sucks.  This is the only F2P game I've told my son, "No, we're not doing this one right now because it's a rip off and we're not spending money on this one."

  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,629Member Uncommon

    This is simple while writers or the industry keep perpetuating the myth of "F2P" as a concept because it is not,  and this is a mute discussion and not even worth the cheap paper it is written on.

    Lets have some honesty, as the simple straightforward pay mechanisms that delivered everything without smoke and mirrors, can return and we can feel that gameplay is associated with a level playing field.

     

     

     

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member
    Originally posted by Isane

    This is simple while writers or the industry keep perpetuating the myth of "F2P" as a concept because it is not,  and this is a mute discussion and not even worth the cheap paper it is written on.

    Lets have some honesty, as the simple straightforward pay mechanisms that delivered everything without smoke and mirrors, can return and we can feel that gameplay is associated with a level playing field.

    There are countless examples of games using "Free to Play" models that are actually "Free to Play": Team Fortress 2, Tribes Ascend, DOTA, SMNC, Minecraft Classic, Salem etc etc. Just because the model has not been properly applied to the MMO genre does not mean the model itself is a myth, especially when there are countless examples of games where it works well. The model could well be applied to an MMO and work marvelously, but big studious are unlikely to be the ones taking the risk (as can be seen with SWTOR).

    The F2P model CAN be transparent and straightfoward, and there are lots of examples where it is. You'd be a fool to allow one iteration to dictate your opinion of the model as a whole.

  • Storman1977Storman1977 Columbus, OHPosts: 207Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdash
    Originally posted by Isane

    This is simple while writers or the industry keep perpetuating the myth of "F2P" as a concept because it is not,  and this is a mute discussion and not even worth the cheap paper it is written on.

    Lets have some honesty, as the simple straightforward pay mechanisms that delivered everything without smoke and mirrors, can return and we can feel that gameplay is associated with a level playing field.

    There are countless examples of games using "Free to Play" models that are actually "Free to Play": Team Fortress 2, Tribes Ascend, DOTA, SMNC, Minecraft Classic, Salem etc etc. Just because the model has not been properly applied to the MMO genre does not mean the model itself is a myth, especially when there are countless examples of games where it works well. The model could well be applied to an MMO and work marvelously, but big studious are unlikely to be the ones taking the risk (as can be seen with SWTOR).

    The F2P model CAN be transparent and straightfoward, and there are lots of examples where it is. You'd be a fool to allow one iteration to dictate your opinion of the model as a whole.

    Actually, it has been applied to the MMO market successfully.  The hybrid F2P/subscription model they've employed for DDO makes it completely possible to play the game 100% free.  The DDOStore is where players go to purchase content and cosmetics.  You spend Turbine Points in the DDOStore.  To get Turbine Points, you either purchase them from Turbine, or earn them by gaining favor with the various factions within the game.  While I'm not going to say it's an easy task opening up the entire game for free, it requires a whole lot of time and grinding.  it is possible.  In fact, there is a guide on the games forums to aid in doing so.

    I've been told that it is even possible to do so in LoTRO, another Turbine game.  But, from my understanding, the grind to do so in LoTRO is 20x the grind to open up DDO for free.

    image

  • ZaltarkZaltark Lockhart, TXPosts: 421Member

    So to summarize it all: F2P should be to pay for what you WANT.

    It should NOT be to pay to remove what you DONT WANT(That make sense?).

    Paying to increase xp gain is one thing. LOWERING xp gain below normal and then paying just to have what it used to be... shows greed.

    And the hotbars... my god man! Removing parts of the game and charging for them is just stupid (anyone remember the MassEffect 3 debacle?).

  • SBE1SBE1 New York, NYPosts: 335Member

    Soooooo, I went back to the game for the F2P and was informed I could only play 2 of my characters.  Well, I wanted to play a new character for a different story.  Sorry, can't do that.  I had to delete almost all of my old characters in order to create 1 new one.  Who would do that?  So I create a new ID and start the game.....and I am immediately hit with the restriction on quest rewards.  WTF?  Not only is the XP lowered (something I think I might be able to deal with, not sure) but if I can't get the quest rewards, then my character is walking around in junk armor and gear except from random drops, which is rather low % rate for anything decent.  

    Add to this the hot-bar restriction, and I think I played for about 3 hours and haven't gone back.  It is just too big of a turn-off.   

    Instead, just allow me to do basic PvE for free (restrict flashpoints, warzones, space combat, and crafting) but putting a huge restriction on just doing the basic PvE class story was too much to bear.

  • zellmerzellmer Fakesville, WIPosts: 442Member

    Great article Victor.

    People really need to know about how bad and how ridiculous the F2P model they're using is..

     

    They've accomplished what I thought was impossible and used a far worse one then EQ and EQ 2 use...

     

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,592Member Uncommon

    I can't recommend this game in either format.  There are FAR too many basic design errors, and bad design decisions.  I played a trooper (commando) to level 50.  The last 20 plus levels, just in sheer morbid fascination into just how bad, bad could get.  

    I suspect there is plenty of blame to go around.  But given EA's past history (and the extensive list of companies they have destroyed, with their corrupting touch) I'm inclined to believe they own the lions share of the blame. 

    I've seen some shovel ware Asian F2P games that didn't have a F2P model thats nearly this bad. 

    More than $150 million and world class IP, down the tubes, because some suits made some really poor decisions. 

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Storman1977

    Actually, it has been applied to the MMO market successfully.  The hybrid F2P/subscription model they've employed for DDO makes it completely possible to play the game 100% free. 

    I've been told that it is even possible to do so in LoTRO, another Turbine game.  But, from my understanding, the grind to do so in LoTRO is 20x the grind to open up DDO for free.

    DDO part, correct.

    LotRO part, your understanding miscalculated a bit, I'd say only 2x the grind, 3x tops :)

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,143Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grakulen

    I cannot in good faith recommend SW:TOR's free to play option to anyone.

    I know I'm repeating myself, but swtor is best game ever for me, never enjoyed so much with any game. Nearly perfect in anything. But as it looks pvp and end game had/have serious problems. I would not know as I could not care less then I do for this two aspects in any game. For the rest all the best. Even wow, rift, ... have been playing at one time max up to 4 or 5 months, but have been playing swtor for strait 7 months, more time invested then for any other. Only then needed detour. I have in meantime played CO, TSW, GW2 and now of course MOP. But I continue to be subbed to swtor which i never did in past. Maybe would be better if companies concentrate on single "target". Or PVP or PVE, not both. Some have however succeeded in this to make both areas appealing.

  • racked3dracked3d Seattle, WAPosts: 5Member
    this has nothing to do with the game.  "well the space combat dos sux."  it has to do with the way EA has crapped on its player base with its F2P
  • YizleYizle Atlanta, GAPosts: 517Member

    I use to complain about how limiting and greedy the SOE F2P models for EQ and EQ2 looked but they do not compare to how horrid the SWTOR one is.

    I think the sheer idea to let you run a quest then not let you loot your reward for it or not giving you enough space for all your skills sealed the deal at how poorly everything about this game has been from start to end.

  • YizleYizle Atlanta, GAPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by Storman1977
    Originally posted by dotdotdash
    Originally posted by Isane

    This is simple while writers or the industry keep perpetuating the myth of "F2P" as a concept because it is not,  and this is a mute discussion and not even worth the cheap paper it is written on.

    Lets have some honesty, as the simple straightforward pay mechanisms that delivered everything without smoke and mirrors, can return and we can feel that gameplay is associated with a level playing field.

    There are countless examples of games using "Free to Play" models that are actually "Free to Play": Team Fortress 2, Tribes Ascend, DOTA, SMNC, Minecraft Classic, Salem etc etc. Just because the model has not been properly applied to the MMO genre does not mean the model itself is a myth, especially when there are countless examples of games where it works well. The model could well be applied to an MMO and work marvelously, but big studious are unlikely to be the ones taking the risk (as can be seen with SWTOR).

    The F2P model CAN be transparent and straightfoward, and there are lots of examples where it is. You'd be a fool to allow one iteration to dictate your opinion of the model as a whole.

    Actually, it has been applied to the MMO market successfully.  The hybrid F2P/subscription model they've employed for DDO makes it completely possible to play the game 100% free.  The DDOStore is where players go to purchase content and cosmetics.  You spend Turbine Points in the DDOStore.  To get Turbine Points, you either purchase them from Turbine, or earn them by gaining favor with the various factions within the game.  While I'm not going to say it's an easy task opening up the entire game for free, it requires a whole lot of time and grinding.  it is possible.  In fact, there is a guide on the games forums to aid in doing so.

    I've been told that it is even possible to do so in LoTRO, another Turbine game.  But, from my understanding, the grind to do so in LoTRO is 20x the grind to open up DDO for free.

    I've have played both DDO and LOTRO and yes Turbine does a great F2P model. I played both those games as a sub and then as F2P. It does make some things harder but nowhere as bad as some of the companies are doing to us.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by Elevenb4

    I have never in my life seen so much hate towards a game. People don't just talk bad about it once or twice, but keep beating the dead horse. Why? Not only do they talk bad about the game, but flame and troll, to no end, the people that actually enjoy it. Other than the official forums, I mention SWTOR anywhere, and the thread usually fills up with flame after flame. Surpasses what I would define as online bullying.

    Blows my mind. Leave the game alone and let people enjoy it ffs.

    You may want to objectively consider the concept that this game actually deserves this treatment.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • KalmarthKalmarth Lake Havasu City, AZPosts: 443Member

    Its called FREE to play, not give away a free car to everyone who crys hard enough, if you really are hard done by I here you can get a free phone from Obama, perhaps that and a nice free social check and how about free health care, dont worry that its comes at a cost to others just have it all free.

     

    Happy to keep playing SWToR for a lot longer, plz keep posting against it and remember to vote for free stuff, when there is no more gaming industry we will all know who to blame :)

     

     

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by Kalmarth

    Its called FREE to play, not give away a free car to everyone who crys hard enough, if you really are hard done by I here you can get a free phone from Obama, perhaps that and a nice free social check and how about free health care, dont worry that its comes at a cost to others just have it all free.

     

    Happy to keep playing SWToR for a lot longer, plz keep posting against it and remember to vote for free stuff, when there is no more gaming industry we will all know who to blame :)

     

     

    /drives steam powered car down the street and shakes fist at the world

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • orionblackorionblack Wichita Falls, TXPosts: 474Member Uncommon
    Yeah this..i was there. I was there when the fanbois rage that this game would NEVER go f2p...I was there when it was annouced they would go f2p. All those new people playing right now that you see populating fleet?? They are going to figure it out fast...
  • TimmyyyTimmyyy Belleville, ONPosts: 5Member

    I guess they should have just let SOE continue with SWG.

    They might not have been the best around, but they didn't bend their customers over a barrel like EA. 

    <img src="http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7478/galioqd3.gif"; alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/>

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