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Originally posted by andre369 I would like to hear some of the reasons why you dislike the new gear. Well I write as a disgruntled player, but not one who is going to ragequit over this matter. Whats wrong with having a little gear progression other than legendaries? Every post I see here and on GW2 forums, it is just pure QQ with no reasons behind it. Thats rather dismissive and unfair. Some people have explained themselves (others I admit are just QQing) Do you really want to play a game where there is nothing to play for? Well I play a game to enjoy it. Gear treadmills aren't the only way. I few days before they announced the new gear tier, I said to myself and friends that this game needs something more than just legendary weapons. Suprisingly most of my friends agreed. It has clearly been said that they will not be adding new gear tiers every 3 months so whats all the fuzz about? Well considering that they appear to be going against the original philosophy of the game, how do we know what they say is true? There is finally a dungeon with REAL rewards in it, and now players have to wine about a good thing? If you dont want to play the new dungeon for the new gear, then dont. You dont need the new gear to play it either so I dont really undestand all this QQ with no reasons to back it up. Well ascended gear is more powerful than exotic gear. It doesn't matter to me how small a difference - it gives an edge. I, like others, want that edge and now I am being forced to do dungeons. I may not want to do dungeons. As it happens fractals are pretty interesting and ANet did promise that ascended gear would be obtainabe in WvW in the future. I hope thats true. Consider this. What if the only way to obtain ascended gear was through WvW or sPvP? I think the PvE / Dungeon crowd would be pretty annoyed. All im saying is that there should be multiple paths to obtain this stuff, because not many of us want to be shoehorned into playing a particular part of the game. Guess I have to find the sources that people have not found yet. People flaming about the event and says ANET has no plans for helping the players that missed the end chest; That deals only with disconnects. What about people who couldn't make that day due to RL issues? ANET clearly states that they will not be adding a threadmill. Great, but as I said before, can we still trust them? They say one thing, but they're actually DOING something else. Offcourse you are free to disagree, but would be nice to hear some other reasons than OMG GW2 going wow.
Id just like to add: if anyone argues that the power difference between exotic and ascended is small and won;t make the difference in WvW, why then bother with ascended gear at all? To create progression? Ok then, why do the players who like dungeons get added gear progression, but the players who prefer WvW don't?
I guess some people refuse to realize that others might have different tastes - you don't need to understand the tastes just that they exist.
For some it is impossible to enjoy a MMORPG without progression, for others it is impossbile to enjoy a game where the progrssion is never ending.
One could say GW2 already have progression, with levelling to 80 and a few tiers of gear.
What you need to understand is that the people that dislike never ending progression tolerate progression if the cap is reasonable.
Achieving level 80, decking in exotics is a reasonable progression (and I and others like me wouldn't mind at all no levels, no stats, no different tiers of gear).
Start to add on top of that and it isn't reasonable anymore.
Sure some of you don't care or even enjoy it.
The fact is GW2 was sold to the players as a game catering for those that dislike progression.
There is tons of games that cater for progression players.
If you go to a vegetarian restaurant (no I'm not vegetarian and I don't understand vegetarians either) you expect vegeratian dishes, you will be pissed if they only have non-vegetarian. You also don't go complaining they don't have beef in a vegetarian restaurant.
Sure, the management might decide or reach the conclusion a vegetarian restaurant isn't viable or isn't what they want.
At least change the restaurant sign at the door or stop mixing some scraps of meat in the vegetarian dishes while claiming it isn't real meat.
Currently playing: GW2Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC I guess the crying will just never stop. If the gear was used in sPvP that would be a problem, but the only PvP the gear can be used in is WvWvW. You can be effective in WvWvW at lvl 1 with no gear at all, so who gives a bakers if someone has ascended gear? It's not like you are gonna be doing any 1 vs 1 in WvWvW, and if you are then you are not contributing to your team because you are running around like an idiot and you just happen to run into another idiot. Its gear progression to run a more challenging dungeon. Not a damn thing wrong with that. These stats are not gonna give you any significant advantage in WvWvW PvP if you are playing WvWvW to its true purpose.
The factor that you and others are not taking into consideration is the impact that these gear grinding treadmills are having on the rest of the game. Currently, no one wants to participate in anything else but these dungeons. Everyone is sitting in Lions Arch spamming "LF1M FoTM." The rest of the zones are desserted. That's not what this game was supposed to be about. There is a reason why the level down-grade functionality was put in place in lower levels. And that was to encourage occassional higher level participation by higher level players. Wv3 is also taking a hit as those zones have become less played. They may have as well change the name of the game to "Guild Wars FoTM" because that is all 90% of the player base wants to do. You have to see the big picture in the downside of this change. But of course, you can't, because you like gear grinding. So enjoy your gear grind! There is one thing real life hamsters have on the lot of you gear grinders, at least they don't have to pay to mindlessly spin around the wheel their masters give them to keep them busy.
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter I guess some people refuse to realize that others might have different tastes - you don't need to understand the tastes just that they exist. For some it is impossible to enjoy a MMORPG without progression, for others it is impossbile to enjoy a game where the progrssion is never ending.
This is the source of all the disagreement over this issue. All of the rhetoric, the derogatory references (QQ, whining, etc.) stem from a fundamental inability to see other people's viewpoints. Sadly, this is unlikely to change.
Taken objectively, ANet said things about GW2 that allowed them to sell a lot of copies of the game to people who believed them. Now, after they've collected this money, they appear to be deviating from what they advertised. This has displeased the people who spent the money based on what was said. There should be no difficulty understanding this unless you do not want to.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
Originally posted by Scarlyng
There should be no difficulty understanding this unless you do not want to.
No, every gamer who's spent any time on MMO forums has seen plenty of "zomg they lied to us!" tempests in teapots before this one. It's a well-practiced and oft-repeated annual event, on some forums.
The "I'll make myself famous leading the rebellion" leaders will have a difficult time rallying their troops on unofficial sites. :shrug:
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by LacedOpium Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC I guess the crying will just never stop. If the gear was used in sPvP that would be a problem, but the only PvP the gear can be used in is WvWvW. You can be effective in WvWvW at lvl 1 with no gear at all, so who gives a bakers if someone has ascended gear? It's not like you are gonna be doing any 1 vs 1 in WvWvW, and if you are then you are not contributing to your team because you are running around like an idiot and you just happen to run into another idiot. Its gear progression to run a more challenging dungeon. Not a damn thing wrong with that. These stats are not gonna give you any significant advantage in WvWvW PvP if you are playing WvWvW to its true purpose.
You are kidding? An MMORPG released new content and everyone is doing it? Son of a biscuit eater... I can't believe this is happening.
We would just rather have no new content to do!!! This is BS!!!!
By the way... that was sarcasm. Also, I'm not grinding this gear. I'm fine with my Exotics and Legendary. So that last piece of your post just makes you look like an idiot even more.
I'm not going to judge other people's opinions about the change as they are as valid as my own. However, I can speak for mysef that the "recent gear issue" did change one of the key principles which drew me into playing GW2 over other games.
I hope but do not expect this state of affairs to be temporary and that it's reversal will bring back the somewhat unique game I hoped GW2 would be. This, combined with a wish that the rest of my guild will eventually find their way back from the new maze (or whatever the name of the instance was). Kitten have mercy on their souls.
Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC Originally posted by LacedOpium Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC I guess the crying will just never stop. If the gear was used in sPvP that would be a problem, but the only PvP the gear can be used in is WvWvW. You can be effective in WvWvW at lvl 1 with no gear at all, so who gives a bakers if someone has ascended gear? It's not like you are gonna be doing any 1 vs 1 in WvWvW, and if you are then you are not contributing to your team because you are running around like an idiot and you just happen to run into another idiot. Its gear progression to run a more challenging dungeon. Not a damn thing wrong with that. These stats are not gonna give you any significant advantage in WvWvW PvP if you are playing WvWvW to its true purpose.
been reading this thread and i really fail to see how you can't acknowledge people fears about it turning into a geargrind, not there yet if this is the only time they do it.
but the fact that gear matters in in WvWvW is a fact as stated by yourself a couple of time in earlier posts.
it doesn't matter if they are old posts/beta unless i've missed it it haven't changed that much since then.
Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC I just wanted to make this thread so that the hardcore "Gear Grinders" unlike myself know that it is still part of the game. They did not remove it completely. Once you bust down a castle wall and get into the all out brawl with the other guild your gear will matter in WvWvW.
Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC From my understanding in this Beta, you get to take whatever gear you have earned into World vs World PvP. Yes, everyone is maxed to level 80, but your gear still comes into play. There were some points where I had 25K health in one build and 19K Health in another build. I recieved a weopon from a World Event Boss that I brought over to World vs. World vs World and it hit considerably harder on enemies than my panzi greatsword I had to begin with. I also bought a bow using Karma that hit 100-150 points harder than my starter bow. I tested these specifically to see if gear mattered and it does. So from what I understand there is without a doubt a gear grind part of this game for all those who love to gear grind. If you PvP in World v World v World you will have an advantage if you have some badass gear. I just wanted to clear this up, because I think people are confused.
Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC Originally posted by Raserei Yeah, you equip that sword... You get those spells.... Then....? And then??? Hmmmmm... Oh yeah, gear doesnt matter.... The entire game you are the same as the moment you unlocked your 5 spells. zzzzz Sleeping...... And PvP..... Literally, 1 2 3 4 5, 1 2 3 4 5, 1 2 3 4 5....... Faceroll fever! Faceroll fever! Faceroll fever!
Actually if you play WvWvW like I do then gear DOES matter.
I merely pointed out the effect that the gear grind hamster treadmill is having on the game. And yes it is understood that it is new content. The fact of the matter is that new content has been introduced before, and new content could have been introduced this time, that would have enriched *all* of the areas instead of introducing a gear grind hamster treadmill that only served the purpose of funneling everyone into a dungeon treadmill to the detriment of the rest of the game.
BTW, don't you just love posters who respond to posts histerically calling people names? It just means there must have been some truth in the post being responded to. Particularly since it did not even dawn on the poster that there is no greater idiot than one who responds all butthurt over a post that did not even apply to him, since he supposedly wasn't one of the ones grinding the gear.
Originally posted by andre369 I would like to hear some of the reasons why you dislike the new gear. *snip*
The only thing really wrong with it, is the effect it's having on the rest of the game. Orr is dead. Been grinding Karma to get myself a nice set of exotic karma gear, and now there's no way to actually get it since all the places where you could get it are contested and deserted. Great huh?
Events that require large groups have become redundant. Rewards from these events irrelevant as you can't complete them anyway. How are you going to persuade enough people to go do a regular "champion" event for now irrelevant gear?
The whole fractals things is basically just killing the rest of the game. "The whole game WAS endgame, up until the introduction of Ascended Gear. The end game has been reduced to spamming for groups in Lions Arch.
That's a real disappoinment, and it goes against their original design philosophy.
I feel like i have to constantly repeat myself on the matter, and its clear im not the only one.
I dont mind if a game is a gear grind, Most of the games i have played have been a gear grind and i still play some to this day. That is not the issue. The difference between those other gear grinds and GW2 is that those other gear grinds didnt pull a bait and switch after i bought the game.
It would be the same thing if i was getting my self a slice of pie and i put a bunch of cool whip on it, only to start to eat it and find out it was actually miracle whip. Miracle whip is fine, but i dont want it on my pie. And much like the scenario i just outlined this whole bait and switch by Anet has left a rather bad taste in many of our mouths.
Im sure most of you who dont see the big deal didnt really research the game beforehand and just expected another regular mmo and didnt see them lieing to you because you had your own set in stone ideas about what this game would be (similar to every other mmo). Those of us who were looking forward to this game since 2007 where told rather clearly what they were intending to do. And believe it or not, not everything they told us back then made it into the release of the game, and they explained why they made the changes, and we were fine with it. They were up front and honest about why they decided not to go dual classing this time around. Did we raise hell about it? NO. How about lack of henchmen and heroes? No controversy there either.
We arent nearly the whiners that we are being unfairly painted as and to accuse us of otherwise is just trolling. They delivered the game at release and those of us who had followed the game from the start and knew what it was about were happy with it as it was. The only people who were complaining about a lack of end game where the people who hadnt done thier homework. Those of us with prior GW experience understood that we could expect plenty of "content" (not to be confused with gear treadmill's and gated end game) that would be released in patches over time and paid expansions.
This was our understanding and it was all based on what the dev's at arenanet had been telling us all along.... until this last month.
GW2 is about an Optional gear grind...
Once i hit 80 on my ranger and crafted quality stuff for myself I was done.
It was my choice to look at the dungeon vendors and it was my choice to focus on a set of gear that hardly had any statistical benefit. It looked cool and I wanted it.
Its no different that doing repeatable events in WoW or Rift for a cosmetic item or mount.
You don't need it, but it appeals to you because it makes you look bad ass.
Originally posted by JoeyMMO Originally posted by andre369 I would like to hear some of the reasons why you dislike the new gear. *snip*
Mybe, just maybe everyone on your server already got that stuff so now they moved on to new goals?
It happens all the time in MMOs. If you progress too slowly you get left behind.
This is why so many people play MMOs on day one and rush to max level. they want to stck with the majority of the population and get all the cool stuff with them because the more people that do it, the easier it is.
On my server I see the same thing. Players that took their time. Just hitting 80 a week or so ago and begging for runs through stuff that we all did the first month of release.
Originally posted by Z3R01 *snip*
Clearly not everybody got that stuff on all their characters, that's just nonsense.
Even if "everybody" got "that stuff", new players won't be able to get it anymore. Does changing the paradigm from "the entire game is end game" to "just another instanced gear grind" make this change a good thing? Simply because so many other games force you to build your life around them, does this mean that GW2 has to do it too?
Without new players the game is doomed. This whole thing needs some serious reconsideration. You can't just plug in something like that and expect it to not have an effect on the game world. They'll need to make some serious changes to make this whole thing fit into the game world again. At this point it feels like GW2 just did a WoW patch, and I really don't want to play a WoW-like game ever again.
Those begging players won't keep on begging, they'll be forced to eiher stick to making alts or just quit. Do you think this is the way it should be? I don't. The game was more enjoyable, for casual players, before the introduction of Ascended Gear, even if the Fractals dungeon is really good.
People are obsessed with this new modicum of a gear grind, because that's the only thing to do at lv.80 that's even slightly rewarding or goal oriented. I'm so disappointed that after all their talk of innovation, this is the best they could come up with for the same old endgame issue.
Of course people are jumping all over it, though. As lame as it may be, at least it's something.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Originally posted by JoeyMMO Originally posted by Z3R01 *snip*
The whole game is endgame but you cant expect everyone to stay in one zone and farm events all day to gear up your alts.
Originally posted by Vhaln People are obsessed with this new modicum of a gear grind, because that's the only thing to do at lv.80 that's even slightly rewarding or goal oriented. I'm so disappointed that after all their talk of innovation, this is the best they could come up with for the same old endgame issue. Of course people are jumping all over it, though. As lame as it may be, at least it's something.
This why i always say players don't know what they want.
A-net delivers a unique experience with the entire game as "Endgame" and people leave because there's no item progression...
So A-net added some.
Originally posted by Z3R01 This why i always say players don't know what they want. A-net delivers a unique experience with the entire game as "Endgame" and people leave because there's no item progression... So A-net added some.
If they'd succeeded at making the entire game as endgame, more people would be playing it that way, and none of this would have been an issue.
I actually have nothing against gear grind, or even a treadmill; hell, if you're building a themepark, it's hard not to do that.
My grievance is over the bait-and-switch. ANet held the game out as being fundamentally against the gear grind treadmill, and yet here it is two months after launch. Sure, it's optional. So were Exotics beforehand. That doesn't change the nature of the statistic disparity among different tiers of equipment, and it doesn't mean that the gear isn't a departure from the stated position that a stat cap should be reasonably accessible to all characters who play the game in any reasonable amount.
I appreciate what a gear grind is, and I know that it's traditionally been a fundamental part of this sub-genre. I embrace that. But Rift, EQ and its successors, WOW, FFXI, etc., all have something in common: nobody had any belief that things would be different when it came to upgrading gear; we knew there would be a treadmill, and we knew there would be power creep, mudflation, and everything else that comes with regular expansion. GW2, to my knowledge, is the sole outlier here in that it misrepresented its position on this philosophy.
The grind isn't the problem. The lie is. This is monocle-gate 2.0 as far as I'm concerned, and my wallet is closed.
Peace and safety.
I play several hours a day and have 2 80s and 4 other alts ranging from lvl 2 - 46.
What I am seeing is fewer and fewer players in zones 10-70 aside from gatherings to kill the 3 dragons. Likewise I am not seeing near as many LFG <dungeon name> in LA and in fact the original dungeons are becoming ghost towns aside from those who want a specific skin or achievement.
The reason is - the token grind was always there, and now with FotM and the new token grind for better gear, players are deciding to spend their time in pursuit of ascended versus the starter dungeon gear. If you can only spend your time doing 1 or the other it makes sense.
I don't know if Nexon/Anet could have added so much disharmony on purpose if they tried. 1) A % of the user base feels betrayed by the gear treadmill and some are leaving the game; 2) some original content is now considered a waste of time and not played by a % of the player base; 3) FotM introduces a flavor of elitism - not purposfully, but the fact is groups that progress up the FotM level chain are not likely to group with someone at FotM level 1 or 2 or 5 etc.; 4) gear treadmill so the game has lost a unique differentiator from other games; 5) people citing their concerns on GW2 forums are being infracted, banned from forums, and their posts deleted... the list goes on.
The genie is out of the bottle now and once the ascended have their gear they will expect more vertical progression and then what does Nexon/Anet do?
Originally posted by Z3R01 The whole game is endgame but you cant expect everyone to stay in one zone and farm events all day to gear up your alts.
No it's not. End game is sitting in LA and farming the fractals dungeon. Be realistic. Everything changed when they added Ascended Gear.
Originally posted by Silentstorm In WvWvW I kill people in ascended gear all the time. They just hit a fraction of a bit harder. Health pools in this game just aren't high enough for that to matter anyway. Most of the gear whining guys just dont see it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. And you don't actually haved to do it. I have two pieces now and I barely did anything to get them. And to be honest I don't see the difference. Like wow i got extra magic find now and a few extra healing im soooo OP now lol...
You have ascended gear, and you kill people with ascended gear, so of course you don't see the difference. You have the same stat increase they do.
It's about an 8% stat increase, which currently isn't a lot, but as the number of pieces that get that boost increase, the bigger the difference it will be. Eventually it will be on par with someone in full exotics against someone in full rares, which is a significant factor. Except that there's a big grind between now and then.
Plus the whole bait and switch thing. If you're cool supporting a developer without integrity, who has absolutely no problem lying to you about anything, then enjoy. I won't.
Originally posted by Vhaln Originally posted by Z3R01 This why i always say players don't know what they want. A-net delivers a unique experience with the entire game as "Endgame" and people leave because there's no item progression... So A-net added some.
That says more about the people than the game.
The great thing about loud gear grind mini-maxers is that it lets me know who to avoid. Unless they're funny....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Originally posted by EvilGeek OP wanted the game to be something it was never sold as being, pleased you got your way, I on the other hand am not that pleased by it, would have rather the game stayed as it was sold to me.
Then you should not play MMOs. All MMOs evolve over time.
Further, you should have paid more attention to the game's design and what ANet said prior to the game's release. Especially the part they said they had to cut a lot of material out for the final release and that it'd be released later.
Not only do we have the (very natural and logical) ascended gear, but we've also gotten a new zone, new equipment & recipes, the fractals and at least a few new DEs in the starter zones. I had cleared all the Divinity's Reach DEs a month ago. Last week I went back and dang if there weren't a couple of new DEs. I don't know about the other areas, but there were a couple of new ones in DR.
And, of course, they've even paid attention to their mistakes instead of blaming their players (a la SWTOR, etc.):
We've seen people saying that they really liked the principle of using events to unveil new content, but we need to tighten up the methods by which they are deployed. We take these comments to heart, as it is our goal to always deliver content of the highest quality.
The bottom line is:
In the short- to mid-term future, ArenaNet plans to revamp and rebalance existing dungeons, add new dungeons to the Fractals of the Mists, fix existing content, add new content and progression for guilds, keep adding features to PvP, add new WvW content and rewards, and continue to add to the dynamic content around the world.
In short. More change. http://tinyurl.com/czuyh3c