Most themepark supporters posting here (except for one who shall remain nameless haha) are going to wake up one day and start to hate themeparks just as we all have at some point. It's just the nature of us, we hate linear models where we're forced in a certain direction and forced to do certain menial tasks.
In short, we all desire freedom over control.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
Most themepark supporters posting here (except for one who shall remain nameless haha) are going to wake up one day and start to hate themeparks just as we all have at some point. It's just the nature of us, we hate linear models where we're forced in a certain direction and forced to do certain menial tasks.
In short, we all desire freedom over control.
The only game where I was forced to do certain things was SwTor. Even WoW, what most people consider the biggest themepark of them all gives me lots of variations in how to play. IMO more than EQ did.
The whole linearity things IMO is largely bs (except in swtor).
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I never played WoW beyond the trial but for me it was LotRO. If you wanted to level in LotRO you were doing the theme parks. Open World leveling was 10 time slower and that was in optimal conditions, farming oranges a few levels above you. LotRO has a huge, huge world though.
Just in metrics,if you had to horse back from one side to the other it would take you hours.
I've said before, Entropia Online is massive and very sand box but they borked their payment system and made the money grab too obvious. It ate $30 in less than a week and I didn't even really do anything. Then for reasons I can't figure out, they locked my credit card for the rest of the month and by the time it was unlocked I was gone and playing something else.
To the point though, those games are world based and it is a big part of their draw. One based on Tolkien the other just a bunch of planets with space content in between. I think most developers are intimidated by big games. Even SWG in the last year. I could roam Dath and never see a soul. They worry they won't fill them up.
Most themepark supporters posting here (except for one who shall remain nameless haha) are going to wake up one day and start to hate themeparks just as we all have at some point. It's just the nature of us, we hate linear models where we're forced in a certain direction and forced to do certain menial tasks.
In short, we all desire freedom over control.
Don't think you know what others like. Some desire entertainment. There is zero freedom in watching movies, but they are a very popular entertainment form.
Lots of linear games .. Dishonor, Halo, COD ... sold millions upon millions.
Sure, if i wake up one day and change my taste, so be it. But so far i don't see any evidence of that.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by ZekiahMost themepark supporters posting here (except for one who shall remain nameless haha) are going to wake up one day and start to hate themeparks just as we all have at some point. It's just the nature of us, we hate linear models where we're forced in a certain direction and forced to do certain menial tasks. In short, we all desire freedom over control.
Don't think you know what others like. Some desire entertainment. There is zero freedom in watching movies, but they are a very popular entertainment form.
Lots of linear games .. Dishonor, Halo, COD ... sold millions upon millions.
Sure, if i wake up one day and change my taste, so be it. But so far i don't see any evidence of that.
Yeah, if Half Life 3 or Episode 3 was available for download, it would be on my computer and I'd be playing it right now. You'll be hard pressed to find something less linear than any Half Life game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by zafoulis one thing i will say, Elders Scrolls Online. i can promise you that this will be the new world game, maybe an already known wolrd by the single-player series that we all know but it will be a WORLD. If you only think that their game engine was built from zero and it's not a already existed engine, it's enough.
LOL!! Oh you can promise that can you??
TESO is just going to be the same level/class based treadmill Themepark that all the others are
Linear, zoned, instanced, phased, shallow and derivative gameplay. Nothing more.
That Im sure of
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Most themepark supporters posting here (except for one who shall remain nameless haha) are going to wake up one day and start to hate themeparks just as we all have at some point. It's just the nature of us, we hate linear models where we're forced in a certain direction and forced to do certain menial tasks.
In short, we all desire freedom over control.
Don't think you know what others like. Some desire entertainment. There is zero freedom in watching movies, but they are a very popular entertainment form.
Lots of linear games .. Dishonor, Halo, COD ... sold millions upon millions.
Sure, if i wake up one day and change my taste, so be it. But so far i don't see any evidence of that.
Newsflash! That`s why we`re all here, Mr. Seldon. They`re video games for god`s sake. They are a form of entertainment, therefore......ah nevermind
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by ZekiahMost themepark supporters posting here (except for one who shall remain nameless haha) are going to wake up one day and start to hate themeparks just as we all have at some point. It's just the nature of us, we hate linear models where we're forced in a certain direction and forced to do certain menial tasks. In short, we all desire freedom over control.
Don't think you know what others like. Some desire entertainment. There is zero freedom in watching movies, but they are a very popular entertainment form.
Lots of linear games .. Dishonor, Halo, COD ... sold millions upon millions.
Sure, if i wake up one day and change my taste, so be it. But so far i don't see any evidence of that.
Yeah, if Half Life 3 or Episode 3 was available for download, it would be on my computer and I'd be playing it right now. You'll be hard pressed to find something less linear than any Half Life game.
To be fair, some non-linear games (like Planetside 2) are good too .. but it is very narrow minded to write off all linear games. There are many highly rated, and very fun ones.
You like HL? How about Dead Space .. i like that game quite a bit.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by ZekiahMost themepark supporters posting here (except for one who shall remain nameless haha) are going to wake up one day and start to hate themeparks just as we all have at some point. It's just the nature of us, we hate linear models where we're forced in a certain direction and forced to do certain menial tasks. In short, we all desire freedom over control.
Don't think you know what others like. Some desire entertainment. There is zero freedom in watching movies, but they are a very popular entertainment form.Lots of linear games .. Dishonor, Halo, COD ... sold millions upon millions.Sure, if i wake up one day and change my taste, so be it. But so far i don't see any evidence of that.Yeah, if Half Life 3 or Episode 3 was available for download, it would be on my computer and I'd be playing it right now. You'll be hard pressed to find something less linear than any Half Life game.To be fair, some non-linear games (like Planetside 2) are good too .. but it is very narrow minded to write off all linear games. There are many highly rated, and very fun ones.
You like HL? How about Dead Space .. i like that game quite a bit.
I couldn't get into Dead Space. I tried twice and just couldn't get past the one dead-oid thing banging its head against the wall (which was super creepy). I think mixing the survival horror with combat turned me off. I want my linear, combat games to be fast paced, and I want my survival horror to not have combat checks. I find the combat checks in survival horror games frustrating and not horrific at all. But I digress. :-)
I think you've nailed it, end thread, etc. There is room in this genre, and others for open ended games in living, breathing worlds. There is also room in this genre for more linear, quest hub based games where the world is a back drop. You can't just write off the linear games anymore than you can just write off open ended worlds. I like both. SWToR wasn't linear enough in my opinion. Get rid of the quest hubs completely and give me one, huge quest chain for that game. At the same time, I love playing on a Minecraft RPG server, where there are no quests at all and the game, primitive as it is, exists in a world. Half Life 2, Portal 1 & 2 were linear and awesome, while Fallout 3 was full of non-linear awesome.
The only thing I would add is I wish developers would focus. Quest hubs are a cop out. Give me one, huge linear story line, or an open ended world. Pick what you want, and do it. Quit waffling about.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
No MMO after UO has been able to keep me engaged for more than six months with the exception of SWG (and they shot that to hell)....
Some people here are arguing thatthe early days were laggy, and full of bugs and the such. This is a fallacious argument. technology was what it was back then, and the Technical issues were the same for all MMO's.
Making a World now would not suffer from the same, with the new realities and tech advancement. We were playing on 28,8 and 56K Dial Up modems back then from crying out loud. Today people have DSL and Cable High Speed connections, advances in hardware and Software have reached new hights as well.
The technical aspect of making an MMO has not been easier, complete MMO's are made with readilly available tools too (Various Premade Engines).
The problem remains money, and, the Vision and Ideas behind the making of a World MMO.
When Devs themselves and their leaders and Producers, do not know how to make a world, how do you want them to pitch the design to an Investor and secure the money required to make the world MMO?
The thriftiness of the Business has made it all about Financial Innovation rather than gameplay one, I immagine that it goes something like this:
"Oh I got the team,, I got the Engine, I got the hosting/networking and marketing/Sales/Support services and the Devellopment mileastones all on paper, here are some financial projections based on the popularity of the IP we are using as a setting...all I need is your money,..and you will get e hefty profit, it is a good investment, we have a winner."
And everyone gets a salary a nice addition to their CV and goes on with their careers and to the next project/job once this one is completed, following the initial stages of the game selling copies, repaying the investors and makingthem a short term profit.
And the circle goes on. That is in reality the issue here.
The irony of it all is that while many people will argue that they may not want to be playing an MMO for more than 6 months, that is not true either. How many people do you know which play WoW for years now already? Yet, how many of those people never experienced a World MMO like UO, almost all, or at least the majority of them.
If they paid to Blizzard for years now a Sub (amazing profit yes?), with a themepark, just immagine a properly made World MMO.
But who knows how to make one now? The only people who did the feat have become legends in the Industry but are not making MMO's anymore. And the people who would have a solid grasp of how it could be made (original Players of the early MMO's), hang around forums like these asking for one but most are not working in the Industry...
The Art of making a world MMO that works is not available at this time.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I couldn't get into Dead Space. I tried twice and just couldn't get past the one dead-oid thing banging its head against the wall (which was super creepy). I think mixing the survival horror with combat turned me off. I want my linear, combat games to be fast paced, and I want my survival horror to not have combat checks. I find the combat checks in survival horror games frustrating and not horrific at all. But I digress. :-)
I think you've nailed it, end thread, etc. There is room in this genre, and others for open ended games in living, breathing worlds. There is also room in this genre for more linear, quest hub based games where the world is a back drop. You can't just write off the linear games anymore than you can just write off open ended worlds. I like both. SWToR wasn't linear enough in my opinion. Get rid of the quest hubs completely and give me one, huge quest chain for that game. At the same time, I love playing on a Minecraft RPG server, where there are no quests at all and the game, primitive as it is, exists in a world. Half Life 2, Portal 1 & 2 were linear and awesome, while Fallout 3 was full of non-linear awesome.
The only thing I would add is I wish developers would focus. Quest hubs are a cop out. Give me one, huge linear story line, or an open ended world. Pick what you want, and do it. Quit waffling about.
I am sorry to hear you can't get into dead space. It is one of the very good (and moody) action adventure game (if you can call it that). I also like the story.
I agree with you. The problem is devs don't focus enough. TOR is going to be a much better game, if it is done a SP action RPG with onlilne features (like D3). Total huge linear quest is going to be much better. I think if they restrict combat to a small group, it can be much better too. Right now, combat in TOR is too small and not actiony enough. I would like a TOR with Force unleashed type combat which you can fight 10 .. 20 .. 30 enemies at the same time. Fighting 3 workers, as a Jedi, is just not feeling right .
One of the few open world game i like is Planetside 2. I think they nail the combat design, and let you jump into action whenever you want. The only complain is really poor framerate (sigh wish they can optimize better), and some balancing issues (which exists in almost all MMOs, online games).
the truth is that WOW made the Theme park the norm ... To really make a proffitable sandbox you would need to do the following.
1) make a large living world - Players will have an effect in this world - Building or defending it as they see fit.
2) Find out what really worked and did not work in other MMO's - make it better (Just like WOW did .. Do not make anything new just make it better)
3) Add in a detailed skill system .. lets face it some people out there can't boil water, but they can fix your car. Lots of skills and lots of choice
4) Allow for a choice - Do not put all one race on one side and the rest on the other ... allow the player to choose to be on side a or side b .. or stay out of it and do nothing or play both sides as a neutral.
To really do this right and well you have to think outside the box and in the box ... You can not have a game based on a story like but has to be much broader than that .. Take SWTOR - you have a class story .. So does everyone else of the class - but then what .. you level cap and you do operations ... it is just a linear way of progression. SWG - You are in the time of the Galactic Rebellion - what do you do ... Whatever you want ... Fight or don't fight .. your call ...
The thing is that idea is where a Sandbox should be .. open .. here is a background and a world (or several) and there you go.
In a way for a true sandbox to work ... the players have to make it what they will .. give them the tools and let them do with it as they please. then throw in the odd natural disaster or far reaching conflict and they can decide how to react.
No MMO after UO has been able to keep me engaged for more than six months with the exception of SWG (and they shot that to hell)....
Some people here are arguing thatthe early days were laggy, and full of bugs and the such. This is a fallacious argument. technology was what it was back then, and the Technical issues were the same for all MMO's.
Making a World now would not suffer from the same, with the new realities and tech advancement. We were playing on 28,8 and 56K Dial Up modems back then from crying out loud. Today people have DSL and Cable High Speed connections, advances in hardware and Software have reached new hights as well.
The technical aspect of making an MMO has not been easier, complete MMO's are made with readilly available tools too (Various Premade Engines).
The problem remains money, and, the Vision and Ideas behind the making of a World MMO.
When Devs themselves and their leaders and Producers, do not know how to make a world, how do you want them to pitch the design to an Investor and secure the money required to make the world MMO?
The thriftiness of the Business has made it all about Financial Innovation rather than gameplay one, I immagine that it goes something like this:
"Oh I got the team,, I got the Engine, I got the hosting/networking and marketing/Sales/Support services and the Devellopment mileastones all on paper, here are some financial projections based on the popularity of the IP we are using as a setting...all I need is your money,..and you will get e hefty profit, it is a good investment, we have a winner."
And everyone gets a salary a nice addition to their CV and goes on with their careers and to the next project/job once this one is completed, following the initial stages of the game selling copies, repaying the investors and makingthem a short term profit.
And the circle goes on. That is in reality the issue here.
The irony of it all is that while many people will argue that they may not want to be playing an MMO for more than 6 months, that is not true either. How many people do you know which play WoW for years now already? Yet, how many of those people never experienced a World MMO like UO, almost all, or at least the majority of them.
If they paid to Blizzard for years now a Sub (amazing profit yes?), with a themepark, just immagine a properly made World MMO.
But who knows how to make one now? The only people who did the feat have become legends in the Industry but are not making MMO's anymore. And the people who would have a solid grasp of how it could be made (original Players of the early MMO's), hang around forums like these asking for one but most are not working in the Industry...
The Art of making a world MMO that works is not available at this time.
What makes you so special? What do you know what the rest of the world doesn't? Why so few, if any, have come to the same conclusions if it is all so clear and simple?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
No MMO after UO has been able to keep me engaged for more than six months with the exception of SWG (and they shot that to hell)....
Some people here are arguing thatthe early days were laggy, and full of bugs and the such. This is a fallacious argument. technology was what it was back then, and the Technical issues were the same for all MMO's.
Making a World now would not suffer from the same, with the new realities and tech advancement. We were playing on 28,8 and 56K Dial Up modems back then from crying out loud. Today people have DSL and Cable High Speed connections, advances in hardware and Software have reached new hights as well.
The technical aspect of making an MMO has not been easier, complete MMO's are made with readilly available tools too (Various Premade Engines).
The problem remains money, and, the Vision and Ideas behind the making of a World MMO.
When Devs themselves and their leaders and Producers, do not know how to make a world, how do you want them to pitch the design to an Investor and secure the money required to make the world MMO?
The thriftiness of the Business has made it all about Financial Innovation rather than gameplay one, I immagine that it goes something like this:
"Oh I got the team,, I got the Engine, I got the hosting/networking and marketing/Sales/Support services and the Devellopment mileastones all on paper, here are some financial projections based on the popularity of the IP we are using as a setting...all I need is your money,..and you will get e hefty profit, it is a good investment, we have a winner."
And everyone gets a salary a nice addition to their CV and goes on with their careers and to the next project/job once this one is completed, following the initial stages of the game selling copies, repaying the investors and makingthem a short term profit.
And the circle goes on. That is in reality the issue here.
The irony of it all is that while many people will argue that they may not want to be playing an MMO for more than 6 months, that is not true either. How many people do you know which play WoW for years now already? Yet, how many of those people never experienced a World MMO like UO, almost all, or at least the majority of them.
If they paid to Blizzard for years now a Sub (amazing profit yes?), with a themepark, just immagine a properly made World MMO.
But who knows how to make one now? The only people who did the feat have become legends in the Industry but are not making MMO's anymore. And the people who would have a solid grasp of how it could be made (original Players of the early MMO's), hang around forums like these asking for one but most are not working in the Industry...
The Art of making a world MMO that works is not available at this time.
What makes you so special? What do you know what the rest of the world doesn't? Why so few, if any, have come to the same conclusions if it is all so clear and simple?
I do not consider myself special. I just state what is obvious to me.
If indeed there is only a minority of people that come to the same conclusion it may simply be the result of a certain common factors and the reality of life. Truth is, there is comparativelly much less players which are still involved with MMO's from the time of UO, many have just given up gaming all together for one or another reason.
But just because a given view is shared by a minority that does not make it a bad one or not a valuable one.
Lets not forget that most innovative ideas we take for granted today came from either a small group of people or single individuals who just had a different view which was obvious to them.
And today they have become the matter for the majority to study about and learn from.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Lets not forget that most innovative ideas we take for granted today came from either a small group of people or single individuals who just had a different view which was obvious to them.
And today they have become the matter for the majority to study about and learn from.
Except that a vritual world is not a new, nor innovative idea. It has been tried way back in UO. Now there is nothing wrong with holding onto old ideas that do not pan out.
However, you have to realize that it has been tried, and it did not become a huge business success like themepark.
There is a huge difference between new ideas that has never been tried (and hence a chance of success), vs those who have been tried, and not successful.
I suppose the majority can learn why virtual world never become as successful as many may hope in the MMO space.
My take is focus. Better for devs to focus on smaller scope ... like LOL, or WOT, or even D3. Very successful games. Huge player base (in the millions) with heavy online components. I don't know how planetside 2 is going to flare commercial .. but it also follow the principle of focus. It does have a big world, but mainly just focus on FPS combat.
I highly doubt a world sim that allows people to fight on one hand, and make wooden chair on the other, will be successful because it has to fit too many things together. In fact, i think LOL has much better arena combat than WOW, just because it does not have to balance PvE and PvP.
Most themepark supporters posting here (except for one who shall remain nameless haha) are going to wake up one day and start to hate themeparks just as we all have at some point. It's just the nature of us, we hate linear models where we're forced in a certain direction and forced to do certain menial tasks.
In short, we all desire freedom over control.
The only game where I was forced to do certain things was SwTor. Even WoW, what most people consider the biggest themepark of them all gives me lots of variations in how to play. IMO more than EQ did.
The whole linearity things IMO is largely bs (except in swtor).
Check back after you've played a few others and let us know what you think then.
I've seen some ardent themepark supporters here finally come to their ends and get themepark burnout. Skinner Box design tends to do that. A lot.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Most themepark supporters posting here (except for one who shall remain nameless haha) are going to wake up one day and start to hate themeparks just as we all have at some point. It's just the nature of us, we hate linear models where we're forced in a certain direction and forced to do certain menial tasks.
In short, we all desire freedom over control.
The only game where I was forced to do certain things was SwTor. Even WoW, what most people consider the biggest themepark of them all gives me lots of variations in how to play. IMO more than EQ did.
The whole linearity things IMO is largely bs (except in swtor).
Check back after you've played a few others and let us know what you think then.
I've seen some ardent themepark supporters here finally come to their ends and get themepark burnout. Skinner Box design tends to do that. A lot.
I've played several and been playing since 2000. The only game that restricted significantly (all games have some restrictions) where I could go or what I could do was swtor.
WoW, EQ, CoH/V, ATITD, Istaria, Lotro, DDO, SWG, VG, War, CO, FE and many others none of them forced me to do specific things.
Swtor was the only one that stated I had to go to this area, then this area...
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
And you would not believe how many times I hear, " So what do you do in this game?"
Because obviously it is not linear. And the fact that they can quest, craft, sell crafted goods, fight, scavenge, join a guild and basically just survive and move about through the world just seems lost on them. Or they dismiss all this as just "Boring!!! "
And this is not even considered a sandbox by the hardcore sandboxers as I understand it !!
So I truly hold little hope for the sandbox genre to take off.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
And you would not believe how many times I hear, " So what do you do in this game?"
Because obviously it is not linear. And the fact that they can quest, craft, sell crafted goods, fight, scavenge, join a guild and basically just survive and move about through the world just seems lost on them. Or they dismiss all this as just "Boring!!! "
And this is not even considered a sandbox by the hardcore sandboxers as I understand it !!
So I truly hold little hope for the sandbox genre to take off.
There is marketing research, showing that too many choices often paralyze people.
Lets not forget that most innovative ideas we take for granted today came from either a small group of people or single individuals who just had a different view which was obvious to them.
And today they have become the matter for the majority to study about and learn from.
Except that a vritual world is not a new, nor innovative idea. It has been tried way back in UO. Now there is nothing wrong with holding onto old ideas that do not pan out.
However, you have to realize that it has been tried, and it did not become a huge business success like themepark.
There is a huge difference between new ideas that has never been tried (and hence a chance of success), vs those who have been tried, and not successful.
I suppose the majority can learn why virtual world never become as successful as many may hope in the MMO space.
My take is focus. Better for devs to focus on smaller scope ... like LOL, or WOT, or even D3. Very successful games. Huge player base (in the millions) with heavy online components. I don't know how planetside 2 is going to flare commercial .. but it also follow the principle of focus. It does have a big world, but mainly just focus on FPS combat.
I highly doubt a world sim that allows people to fight on one hand, and make wooden chair on the other, will be successful because it has to fit too many things together. In fact, i think LOL has much better arena combat than WOW, just because it does not have to balance PvE and PvP.
I think the point is being missed here.
The OP is not trying to Directly say, what will be the best Business Design. The OP simply is saying that this is what some of the players (the Customers) want and are waiting for. There is a need for World MMO's.
It is up to the Companies/Devs/Investors to cater that need....
If everyone is trying to make the next WoW, and hit it big with a multi-Billion dollar anual revenue... well guess what, there can be only one winner..and if you are not the winner then you are a total loser....
I am one of the people who would like to play and willing to pay for a world MMO...what you do not want my money? Not enough for you?
You just failed in business then. Continue making Themeparks that become barren after 3 months and switch to F2P model 6-12 months post release...
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
And you would not believe how many times I hear, " So what do you do in this game?"
Because obviously it is not linear. And the fact that they can quest, craft, sell crafted goods, fight, scavenge, join a guild and basically just survive and move about through the world just seems lost on them. Or they dismiss all this as just "Boring!!! "
And this is not even considered a sandbox by the hardcore sandboxers as I understand it !!
So I truly hold little hope for the sandbox genre to take off.
There is marketing research, showing that too many choices often paralyze people.
Given this psychology, i don't think you will ever have a large enough market for a true sandbox. Freedom is only good to an extent.
LOL!
Well, it's a good thing we have themeparks then eh? I'd hate to have a bunch of gamers fall over dead at their keyboards!
Hahaha, good stuff.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Comments
Most themepark supporters posting here (except for one who shall remain nameless haha) are going to wake up one day and start to hate themeparks just as we all have at some point. It's just the nature of us, we hate linear models where we're forced in a certain direction and forced to do certain menial tasks.
In short, we all desire freedom over control.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
The only game where I was forced to do certain things was SwTor. Even WoW, what most people consider the biggest themepark of them all gives me lots of variations in how to play. IMO more than EQ did.
The whole linearity things IMO is largely bs (except in swtor).
I never played WoW beyond the trial but for me it was LotRO. If you wanted to level in LotRO you were doing the theme parks. Open World leveling was 10 time slower and that was in optimal conditions, farming oranges a few levels above you. LotRO has a huge, huge world though.
Just in metrics,if you had to horse back from one side to the other it would take you hours.
I've said before, Entropia Online is massive and very sand box but they borked their payment system and made the money grab too obvious. It ate $30 in less than a week and I didn't even really do anything. Then for reasons I can't figure out, they locked my credit card for the rest of the month and by the time it was unlocked I was gone and playing something else.
To the point though, those games are world based and it is a big part of their draw. One based on Tolkien the other just a bunch of planets with space content in between. I think most developers are intimidated by big games. Even SWG in the last year. I could roam Dath and never see a soul. They worry they won't fill them up.
Don't think you know what others like. Some desire entertainment. There is zero freedom in watching movies, but they are a very popular entertainment form.
Lots of linear games .. Dishonor, Halo, COD ... sold millions upon millions.
Sure, if i wake up one day and change my taste, so be it. But so far i don't see any evidence of that.
Lots of linear games .. Dishonor, Halo, COD ... sold millions upon millions.
Sure, if i wake up one day and change my taste, so be it. But so far i don't see any evidence of that.
Yeah, if Half Life 3 or Episode 3 was available for download, it would be on my computer and I'd be playing it right now. You'll be hard pressed to find something less linear than any Half Life game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
LOL!! Oh you can promise that can you??
TESO is just going to be the same level/class based treadmill Themepark that all the others are
Linear, zoned, instanced, phased, shallow and derivative gameplay. Nothing more.
That Im sure of
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Newsflash! That`s why we`re all here, Mr. Seldon. They`re video games for god`s sake. They are a form of entertainment, therefore......ah nevermind
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
To be fair, some non-linear games (like Planetside 2) are good too .. but it is very narrow minded to write off all linear games. There are many highly rated, and very fun ones.
You like HL? How about Dead Space .. i like that game quite a bit.
I did for abit.
A tiny bit cauz i did not have much time at that point.
The combat in the game bit me in the ass. wtf is up with that...
Yeah, if Half Life 3 or Episode 3 was available for download, it would be on my computer and I'd be playing it right now. You'll be hard pressed to find something less linear than any Half Life game.
To be fair, some non-linear games (like Planetside 2) are good too .. but it is very narrow minded to write off all linear games. There are many highly rated, and very fun ones.
You like HL? How about Dead Space .. i like that game quite a bit.
I couldn't get into Dead Space. I tried twice and just couldn't get past the one dead-oid thing banging its head against the wall (which was super creepy). I think mixing the survival horror with combat turned me off. I want my linear, combat games to be fast paced, and I want my survival horror to not have combat checks. I find the combat checks in survival horror games frustrating and not horrific at all. But I digress. :-)
I think you've nailed it, end thread, etc. There is room in this genre, and others for open ended games in living, breathing worlds. There is also room in this genre for more linear, quest hub based games where the world is a back drop. You can't just write off the linear games anymore than you can just write off open ended worlds. I like both. SWToR wasn't linear enough in my opinion. Get rid of the quest hubs completely and give me one, huge quest chain for that game. At the same time, I love playing on a Minecraft RPG server, where there are no quests at all and the game, primitive as it is, exists in a world. Half Life 2, Portal 1 & 2 were linear and awesome, while Fallout 3 was full of non-linear awesome.
The only thing I would add is I wish developers would focus. Quest hubs are a cop out. Give me one, huge linear story line, or an open ended world. Pick what you want, and do it. Quit waffling about.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Darkfall gave world and most still whined game failed.
Nomatter how hard developers try making a great gameworld these days majority will complain nomatter what.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
I agree with the OP.
No MMO after UO has been able to keep me engaged for more than six months with the exception of SWG (and they shot that to hell)....
Some people here are arguing thatthe early days were laggy, and full of bugs and the such. This is a fallacious argument. technology was what it was back then, and the Technical issues were the same for all MMO's.
Making a World now would not suffer from the same, with the new realities and tech advancement. We were playing on 28,8 and 56K Dial Up modems back then from crying out loud. Today people have DSL and Cable High Speed connections, advances in hardware and Software have reached new hights as well.
The technical aspect of making an MMO has not been easier, complete MMO's are made with readilly available tools too (Various Premade Engines).
The problem remains money, and, the Vision and Ideas behind the making of a World MMO.
When Devs themselves and their leaders and Producers, do not know how to make a world, how do you want them to pitch the design to an Investor and secure the money required to make the world MMO?
The thriftiness of the Business has made it all about Financial Innovation rather than gameplay one, I immagine that it goes something like this:
"Oh I got the team,, I got the Engine, I got the hosting/networking and marketing/Sales/Support services and the Devellopment mileastones all on paper, here are some financial projections based on the popularity of the IP we are using as a setting...all I need is your money,..and you will get e hefty profit, it is a good investment, we have a winner."
And everyone gets a salary a nice addition to their CV and goes on with their careers and to the next project/job once this one is completed, following the initial stages of the game selling copies, repaying the investors and makingthem a short term profit.
And the circle goes on. That is in reality the issue here.
The irony of it all is that while many people will argue that they may not want to be playing an MMO for more than 6 months, that is not true either. How many people do you know which play WoW for years now already? Yet, how many of those people never experienced a World MMO like UO, almost all, or at least the majority of them.
If they paid to Blizzard for years now a Sub (amazing profit yes?), with a themepark, just immagine a properly made World MMO.
But who knows how to make one now? The only people who did the feat have become legends in the Industry but are not making MMO's anymore. And the people who would have a solid grasp of how it could be made (original Players of the early MMO's), hang around forums like these asking for one but most are not working in the Industry...
The Art of making a world MMO that works is not available at this time.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I am sorry to hear you can't get into dead space. It is one of the very good (and moody) action adventure game (if you can call it that). I also like the story.
I agree with you. The problem is devs don't focus enough. TOR is going to be a much better game, if it is done a SP action RPG with onlilne features (like D3). Total huge linear quest is going to be much better. I think if they restrict combat to a small group, it can be much better too. Right now, combat in TOR is too small and not actiony enough. I would like a TOR with Force unleashed type combat which you can fight 10 .. 20 .. 30 enemies at the same time. Fighting 3 workers, as a Jedi, is just not feeling right .
One of the few open world game i like is Planetside 2. I think they nail the combat design, and let you jump into action whenever you want. The only complain is really poor framerate (sigh wish they can optimize better), and some balancing issues (which exists in almost all MMOs, online games).
the truth is that WOW made the Theme park the norm ... To really make a proffitable sandbox you would need to do the following.
1) make a large living world - Players will have an effect in this world - Building or defending it as they see fit.
2) Find out what really worked and did not work in other MMO's - make it better (Just like WOW did .. Do not make anything new just make it better)
3) Add in a detailed skill system .. lets face it some people out there can't boil water, but they can fix your car. Lots of skills and lots of choice
4) Allow for a choice - Do not put all one race on one side and the rest on the other ... allow the player to choose to be on side a or side b .. or stay out of it and do nothing or play both sides as a neutral.
To really do this right and well you have to think outside the box and in the box ... You can not have a game based on a story like but has to be much broader than that .. Take SWTOR - you have a class story .. So does everyone else of the class - but then what .. you level cap and you do operations ... it is just a linear way of progression. SWG - You are in the time of the Galactic Rebellion - what do you do ... Whatever you want ... Fight or don't fight .. your call ...
The thing is that idea is where a Sandbox should be .. open .. here is a background and a world (or several) and there you go.
In a way for a true sandbox to work ... the players have to make it what they will .. give them the tools and let them do with it as they please. then throw in the odd natural disaster or far reaching conflict and they can decide how to react.
What makes you so special? What do you know what the rest of the world doesn't? Why so few, if any, have come to the same conclusions if it is all so clear and simple?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I do not consider myself special. I just state what is obvious to me.
If indeed there is only a minority of people that come to the same conclusion it may simply be the result of a certain common factors and the reality of life. Truth is, there is comparativelly much less players which are still involved with MMO's from the time of UO, many have just given up gaming all together for one or another reason.
But just because a given view is shared by a minority that does not make it a bad one or not a valuable one.
Lets not forget that most innovative ideas we take for granted today came from either a small group of people or single individuals who just had a different view which was obvious to them.
And today they have become the matter for the majority to study about and learn from.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Except that a vritual world is not a new, nor innovative idea. It has been tried way back in UO. Now there is nothing wrong with holding onto old ideas that do not pan out.
However, you have to realize that it has been tried, and it did not become a huge business success like themepark.
There is a huge difference between new ideas that has never been tried (and hence a chance of success), vs those who have been tried, and not successful.
I suppose the majority can learn why virtual world never become as successful as many may hope in the MMO space.
My take is focus. Better for devs to focus on smaller scope ... like LOL, or WOT, or even D3. Very successful games. Huge player base (in the millions) with heavy online components. I don't know how planetside 2 is going to flare commercial .. but it also follow the principle of focus. It does have a big world, but mainly just focus on FPS combat.
I highly doubt a world sim that allows people to fight on one hand, and make wooden chair on the other, will be successful because it has to fit too many things together. In fact, i think LOL has much better arena combat than WOW, just because it does not have to balance PvE and PvP.
Check back after you've played a few others and let us know what you think then.
I've seen some ardent themepark supporters here finally come to their ends and get themepark burnout. Skinner Box design tends to do that. A lot.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I've played several and been playing since 2000. The only game that restricted significantly (all games have some restrictions) where I could go or what I could do was swtor.
WoW, EQ, CoH/V, ATITD, Istaria, Lotro, DDO, SWG, VG, War, CO, FE and many others none of them forced me to do specific things.
Swtor was the only one that stated I had to go to this area, then this area...
Playing Fallen Earth now.
And you would not believe how many times I hear, " So what do you do in this game?"
Because obviously it is not linear. And the fact that they can quest, craft, sell crafted goods, fight, scavenge, join a guild and basically just survive and move about through the world just seems lost on them. Or they dismiss all this as just "Boring!!! "
And this is not even considered a sandbox by the hardcore sandboxers as I understand it !!
So I truly hold little hope for the sandbox genre to take off.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
There is marketing research, showing that too many choices often paralyze people.
http://www.amazon.com/Paradox-Choice-Why-More-Less/dp/0060005696
Given this psychology, i don't think you will ever have a large enough market for a true sandbox. Freedom is only good to an extent.
I think the point is being missed here.
The OP is not trying to Directly say, what will be the best Business Design. The OP simply is saying that this is what some of the players (the Customers) want and are waiting for. There is a need for World MMO's.
It is up to the Companies/Devs/Investors to cater that need....
If everyone is trying to make the next WoW, and hit it big with a multi-Billion dollar anual revenue... well guess what, there can be only one winner..and if you are not the winner then you are a total loser....
I am one of the people who would like to play and willing to pay for a world MMO...what you do not want my money? Not enough for you?
You just failed in business then. Continue making Themeparks that become barren after 3 months and switch to F2P model 6-12 months post release...
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
LOL!
Well, it's a good thing we have themeparks then eh? I'd hate to have a bunch of gamers fall over dead at their keyboards!
Hahaha, good stuff.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky