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Is rift endgame raid or die?

13

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  • demarc01demarc01 Dover, DEPosts: 428Member

    Vannor, I do understand where your coming from, and i'll hazzard a guess that your a raider.

     

    I mentioned that I dont view raids as being hard in of themselves, for me the only hard part of raiding is the other 19 people. That in of itself is a design choice. Game developers could make small group content to be equally as difficult as raid content in its own way, in fact I've found this to be true in some cases, Dungeon content is harder on the individual than raid content simply because the fewer people the more important your direct impact is on the outcome. Thats apples and oranges though.

    If you read my earlier post I mentioned that I feel (again personal opinion) that different aspects of the game should have thier own reward tiers. Dungeons should progress in difficulty in the same way raids do, tiers if you like. The same should be true of PvP and Rifts. You should, again in my opinion, get planar gear from rifts that allow  you to progress to expert rifts, then master rifts. That gear should have little to no impact on running dungeons, normal > expert > master or raids Tier 1 > Tier 2 > Tier 3.

    Someone who runs dungeons to the master level should be geared to do it, someone who runs raids should not be able to jump into master dungeons based on thier raid gear and just skip the regualr and expert dungeons.

    Designers agree with me to a degree, hence the PvP vs PvE gear sets. I personally think they need to take it further and break down *end game* aspects to each give rewards and progression without impacting ther other spheres.

    To me that would open up the end-game and give players more choices with each choice being equally rewarding for the player. If you wanted to run dungeons and raid, you'd do both and get both gear sets. That way dungeon runners or rift runners (ie people who dont wish to raid) would not feel Marginalized by the end game direction.

    Raiding would still be there, there would still be progression through raiding, you'd just add additional progression routes for other player types.

    Personally I dont view this as a bad thing, I can however see why other people would object and call it a needless grind, having to get dungeon sets / raid sets / rift sets. Personally more options for progression is a good thing to me, each to his own though.

     

    image

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by demarc01

    Vannor, I do understand where your coming from, and i'll hazzard a guess that your a raider.

    I mentioned that I dont view raids as being hard in of themselves, for me the only hard part of raiding is the other 19 people. That in of itself is a design choice. Game developers could make small group content to be equally as difficult as raid content in its own way, in fact I've found this to be true in some cases, Dungeon content is harder on the individual than raid content simply because the fewer people the more important your direct impact is on the outcome. Thats apples and oranges though.

    If you read my earlier post I mentioned that I feel (again personal opinion) that different aspects of the game should have thier own reward tiers. Dungeons should progress in difficulty in the same way raids do, tiers if you like. The same should be true of PvP and Rifts. You should, again in my opinion, get planar gear from rifts that allow  you to progress to expert rifts, then master rifts. That gear should have little to no impact on running dungeons, normal > expert > master or raids Tier 1 > Tier 2 > Tier 3.

    Someone who runs dungeons to the master level should be geared to do it, someone who runs raids should not be able to jump into master dungeons based on thier raid gear and just skip the regualr and expert dungeons.

    Designers agree with me to a degree, hence the PvP vs PvE gear sets. I personally think they need to take it further and break down *end game* aspects to each give rewards and progression without impacting ther other spheres.

    To me that would open up the end-game and give players more choices with each choice being equally rewarding for the player. If you wanted to run dungeons and raid, you'd do both and get both gear sets. That way dungeon runners or rift runners (ie people who dont wish to raid) would not feel Marginalized by the end game direction.

    Raiding would still be there, there would still be progression through raiding, you'd just add additional progression routes for other player types.

    Personally I dont view this as a bad thing, I can however see why other people would object and call it a needless grind, having to get dungeon sets / raid sets / rift sets. Personally more options for progression is a good thing to me, each to his own though.

    lol nah, I'm not a raider at all. The closest thing I've ever done to raiding is the ones in LOTRO.. and I didn't do many. I actually hate raiding because it eats away at your time, but I'm really enjoying Rift. Which is why I'm arguing that it isn't raid centric. i'm not a raider and I feel perfectly happy. I don't care about those people in the top tier raid gear.. I don't envy them. I know they took the time to get it and that I could have it as well but I choose not to, doesn't bother me. I can still beat them in a duel though.

    Now, if you are bothered about having the best appearance armor.. well, Rift offers tons of that. Plus, the old raid sets look much better than the new ones and are really easy to get now.

    If running dungeons offered the same rewards.. then they would have to take the same amount of time and be the same difficulty wouldn't they? You can't offer the same rewards for something that is easier.. no one would bother raiding. More options to get the top gear would be great but it would have to require the same investment to get otherwise it's unfair to the raiders. But that level of investment is the reason you, we, don't want to raid in the first place.

  • demarc01demarc01 Dover, DEPosts: 428Member

    O_o

     

    So you can transmute looks in Rift now?

    Well now thats sounds interesting .... esp since as you say we can run level 50 dungeons to get the gears pretty easy.

    My old account is still kicking around somewhere and has a cleric and Mage on it. Mage has dungeon gear and the Cleric has GSB healing gear, Expert tanking gear and DPS PvP gears heh.

    I did read that they nerf'd Expert dungeons though? (So sad) do they revert that? Or are the new *master* mode dungeons the same as the old Expert ones used to be? Was'ent happy when they nerf'd the difficulty of the dungeons tbh :/

    image

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by demarc01

    O_o

    So you can transmute looks in Rift now?

    Well now thats sounds interesting .... esp since as you say we can run level 50 dungeons to get the gears pretty easy.

    My old account is still kicking around somewhere and has a cleric and Mage on it. Mage has dungeon gear and the Cleric has GSB healing gear, Expert tanking gear and DPS PvP gears heh.

    I did read that they nerf'd Expert dungeons though? (So sad) do they revert that? Or are the new *master* mode dungeons the same as the old Expert ones used to be? Was'ent happy when they nerf'd the difficulty of the dungeons tbh :/

    You can't transmute them. But there are wardrobe slots so you can have multiple appearances equipped on your character at any time. I think it's 6.

    I'm not sure if they nerfed expert dungeons.. but the level 50 expert dungeon are bound to be easy, maybe even soloable, with a level 60 character. The new level 60 expert and master dungeons are a different matter altogether though.

  • demarc01demarc01 Dover, DEPosts: 428Member

    Ya they nerf'd expert dungeons before Hammerknell came out. One of the main reasons I stopped playing back then. Expert dungeons went from tough runs that my friends and I really enjoyed to a walk in the park. Shame really Since I was nearly done with the dungon achievements back then (and they were TOUGH!!)

    I did hear about the new master level of dungeons awhile back and the kinda caught my attention, since I figured it was a new name on an old difficulty, a difficulty that I actually really enjoyed back then.

    I take it then the the appearance tabs work in the same was as LotRO does? I remember them with a fondness ... GD turbine and thier POS Isenguard expansion :/

    I may have to check Rift out again then, sounds like they have added some interesting additions. Now if I can bug the Dev's to add specific Dungeon running progression ... heh :p

    image

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by demarc01

    Ya they nerf'd expert dungeons before Hammerknell came out. One of the main reasons I stopped playing back then. Expert dungeons went from tough runs that my friends and I really enjoyed to a walk in the park. Shame really Since I was nearly done with the dungon achievements back then (and they were TOUGH!!)

    I did hear about the new master level of dungeons awhile back and the kinda caught my attention, since I figured it was a new name on an old difficulty, a difficulty that I actually really enjoyed back then.

    I take it then the the appearance tabs work in the same was as LotRO does? I remember them with a fondness ... GD turbine and thier POS Isenguard expansion :/

    I may have to check Rift out again then, sounds like they have added some interesting additions. Now if I can bug the Dev's to add specific Dungeon running progression ... heh :p

    Wardrobe is pretty much like in LOTRO yeh.. but only when they first added it to LOTRO, not the way it is now. You can't save appearances in a menu and delete the item, you have to keep the item yourself either in the wardrobe slot or in the bank or summat.

    All callings (mage, warrior, etc) can now put any type of armor in their wardrobe. So you can have a mage that looks like they have plate armor on. You might think everyone would do that, have a mage in plate, but they don't. Tons of varied appearances out there.

    I can't tell you loads about the dungeons in the expansion other than the first one in normal mode; exodus of the storm queen (level 50-54). In normal mode, it is definately harder than the level 50 expert dungeons. The mechanics can be tricky as well. Blades flying around the room that you have to keep your eye on so you don't get one shotted.. stuff like that. I think 3 of the pugs I was in failed before we managed to get a group capable of doing it. Could have just been extremely bad pugs though.

    I read on the official forums somewhere.. not sure if it's true.. that they will be updating the old expert dungeons to level 60 eventually.

  • Arcondo87Arcondo87 Prince Albert, SKPosts: 94Member
    I might actually get back into this game only played it for the free month....
  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by demarc01
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by demarc01 Aye I have a full understanding of the systems in place now. Pretty much you could say its *the same as WoW* in that you can always easily get the gear required for entry level into the current raid content. (A tier behind if you like)   Hopefully one day Dev's will *get it* and understand that not everyone likes to raid. I'll try to be clear here, as a mostly non-raider these days, i dont care if raiders have gear thats better for raiding. Thats cool and has no effect on me. What does effect me is that raid gear is, due to its base nature of just being a pure statistical upgrade, just better for *everything*. If I run a dungeon in my dungeon set and there is a raider there in a raid set, they will have an advantage over me. To me, a raid set should help youi in raids, not *everything*. Like WoW's pvp sets, they come with a Resilience stat thats only good for PvP. The same kind of stat should be on raid gear, a resist specific to raiding. Let raiders have thier shiney gear with raid stats on it so they can progress in the raid tiers, but when they enter *my world* of dungeon crawling, their gear should be comparable to mine. (Thats not to say they cant go get a dungon set of thier own it thats thier desire) Like I say, I dont care about the raid sets, make them look cool and themed to the raid, I just feel its lazy design to just pump based stats all the time as upgrades. Hell if raid sets were not just pure statistical upgrades all the time it would help with the power-creep in older content too, dungeons would remain a challenge for longer, over-land mobs would be trivialized much slower etc etc. Just my opinion of course, I'm sure others will see it different.
      I disagree with most of what you said here heh. If you equip the best raid gear and go into pvp, you will get stomped. If you equip the best pvp gear and go into raids, you wont be able to hit anything. As far as dungeons, whats the advantage there? You are a team with a common goal. If someone does 5% more damage than you, how does that ruin your experience? If you care about stats and damage meters, then maybe that'll bug you. Does it bug you enough to raid and get the same gear? nope.
    I used resilience as an example stat, I'm aware that Rift has similar stats for PvP, I was rank 5 before I quit (rank 6 was the cap back then)

    Its an effort vs reward thing.

    If i PvP i get PvP gear that helps me PvP but is really not so good in dungeons / raids. Fine.

    If I run dungons I get gear thats good for dungeons but not good for PvP and not so good for raiding. Fine.

    If I raid I get gear thats good for dungons AND raiding but not so good for PvP.

    See the difference there?

     

    Its a perception thing. Some people just split the game into PvP / PvE so to them raids are the same as dungeons, just more people. For me raiding is not the same as dungeons. Sure its a PvE activity, I'd just like to see an equal reward system for progressing in my chosen activity that shows I am a true *dungeonmaster*.

    In an Ideal game (for me) each aspect of end-game could be progressed in its own way. Planar gear should give me an advantage when I am doing rifts. It should be BETTER than raid / dungeon or PvP gear for that activity. Raid gear should be the BEST gear for raiding. Dungeon gear should be the BEST for running dungeons etc. Each aspect of the game should reward thoses who chose to participate in it. Would this mean more gear grinds? Sure it would. People who wanted to run rifts and dungeons and raid and PvP would be looking at building 4 sets or gear. Do I personally see this as a bad thing? Nope. Others would disagree and call it way to grindey and I accept that, I can see that point of view, I just disagree with it.

    In my ideal game, there would be one generic base set that was *entery* level for all activitys, and past that all gear would specalize in some aspect or another. A raider in raid gear entering a dungon would actually be at a disadvantage to a dungeon runner in dungeon gear.

    ATM this holds true in the PvP vs PvE gear sets, I'd just like to see the scope expanded so that people can feel rewarded for specific activitys rather then general activites. (Dungon / raid / PvP / Rifts rather then PvP/PvE)



    I can see where you're coming from. I think it would be cool if dungeons had their own best in slot gear for that specific activity. As it stands in rift, dungeons are the gateway to raids which is not everyone's preferred style. However, you can get full sets of dungeon gear that doesn't take too long and I think that is appealing to a lot of casual players.

    There is a full set of upgradeable planar gear and epic crafted gear for every slot that takes a crap load more time than raids. It may be slightly under the raid stats but I wore almost every slot in crafted gear and I got a few props from people inspecting my character. Thre are a lot of activities that reward personal accomplishments that others can recognize. Raid gear is the only one that is absolute without a doubt the best you can possibly get.

    For me, in this game, its not a problem. It doesnt help in pvp and it can only help in the other pve content since we are all on the same side now. But yeah I can see how it may not give that prestige some players look for and dont want to raid. Is it enough to consider Rift "raid or die"? Hardly. There's just too much other valid content to be so focused on one aspect to let it affect me. I think others feel the same. A lot of people are just doing their own thing now getting the best they can while doing the stuff they like most. TBH, I think the gear showcase in Rift is a lot more muted than say WoW where best in slot is what all roads lead to. Dimensions and Hunt Rifts open up a couple much needed alternatives to dungeons, raids, and pvp. Now the population is scattered across many game systems taking some of the emphasis away from best in slot raiding gear.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,209Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vannor
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by demarc01
    Originally posted by Xhieron

    /snip

    ^ He gets it.

    Sorry if my OP was unclear to people, yes I am basically asking if non-raiders are second class. I had read about some of the Chronicles and such that Rift introduced, but had no clue as to the rewards etc.

    Yes, non-raiders are second class.  It wouldn't have taken much research on your part to figure that out.  There are whole wikis devoted to gear tiers and what it takes to get them.  You can compare stats at Zam for example.

    So adding IAs, Expert Dungeons, Master Dungeons, new types of Rifts, new world events, new zone events, new warfronts, upcoming new conquest maps, new tiers of planar gear, new tiers of PvP gear, new Chronicles.. and more, is catering to raiders?

    Raiders are getting the smallest amount of content in the game. So far they have 1 new set of upgradable gear and a couple raids. Raiding is the hardest content so it deserves the best rewards.. that's the way of all things. But in terms of how much they have to actually do, content, they have far less than any other area.

    If this game catered to raiders the new expansion would be more than 50% raid content.. and it isn't. It's probably not even 5%.

    I never said catering to anyone.  Don't put words in my mouth or play silly games.

    If any of your gear is not top tier raid gear it is second best.  That's not an opinion and it was a direct answer to his question.

    The highlighted orange part *is* your opinion.  My answer to him didn't go there, but I don't agree with you at all.  For one, raiding isn't really that hard other than the cat herding.  It's mostly disco dancing (jump, move, and dance around based on event conditions) and simon says (don't stand in the visual effect, only stay in the blue circle, don't let the lasers touch you, etc) with dps, hps, and mitigation checks.  Once you learn the pattern or system then you're golden.  They're only harder because there are more people that can cause failure.   Individual skill between master modes and raids really isn't any different.  Why should I lose out on a reward or drop because someone else made a  mistake.  Add in the idiotic politics and the few people who control what the rest of us get, and in no way do I think raiding deserves more or better.

    It's a poor reward system in my opinion.  Multiiple golden paths to the same quality rewards is a much better design.  Not only that but participating in any of them should all add to that progression.  But like I said, he just wanted to know if everything but raid gear was second best and I answered him.  That's all.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Vannor

     Raiding is the hardest content so it deserves the best rewards..

    The highlighted orange part *is* your opinion.  My answer to him didn't go there, but I don't agree with you at all.  For one, raiding isn't really that hard other than the cat herding.  It's mostly disco dancing (jump, move, and dance around based on event conditions) and simon says (don't stand in the visual effect, only stay in the blue circle, don't let the lasers touch you, etc) with dps, hps, and mitigation checks.  Once you learn the pattern or system then you're golden.  They're only harder because there are more people that can cause failure.   Individual skill between master modes and raids really isn't any different.  Why should I lose out on a reward or drop because someone else made a  mistake.  Add in the idiotic politics and the few people who control what the rest of us get, and in no way do I think raiding deserves more or better.

    It's a poor reward system in my opinion.  Multiiple golden paths to the same quality rewards is a much better design.  Not only that but participating in any of them should all add to that progression.  But like I said, he just wanted to know if everything but raid gear was second best and I answered him.  That's all.

         Perfectly said.. I don't think I could of said it any better..  I always said that raiding is like country line dancing.. It really isnt' hard, you just have to learn the moves as a group.. After that is done, it's a walk in the park you can do blindfolded.. I found raiding to be boring after the first chorus.. lol  However, in Rift which lead me to quit was the disparity of rewards when doing open world rifts.. I bought the game for that sole purpose as I wanted to avoid an instance grind game.. The rewards fro rift hunting was crap.. In addition at the time I quit all players that spent their time doing instancing outperformed in PvE rift events, which means I recieved 2nd place rewards.. Because I didnt' have raid gear I could never achieve the reward level of the better "stones"? or whatever you called them.. 

        If Trion would change their PvE rewards so that rift hunting is equally rewarded as raiders, I"d come back.. But if I have to contiue to play 2nd fiddle to a raider while doing a rift events.. I'll stay cancelled..

  • demarc01demarc01 Dover, DEPosts: 428Member

    Seems I am not so alone in my desire to see different end game activitys rewarded on seperate paths after all :p

    Go back a few posts Rydeson and read what I said above each sphere of end-game offering its own progression route !

    image

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon

         TY Demarco.. I did go back a few post and read what you said..  I agree completely.. I had offer similar suggestion back when I played, and was told to "get lost" by the raiders..  To me, Rift is comprised of 4 different paths or play style.. You can either 1) PvP, 2) Raid, 3) dungeon crawl or 4) Rift hunting..  I wish each had their own importance.. Most seem to accept and understand that PvP isn't good to use in a Raid, and Raid gear is not optimal in PvP... Well.. Why not use that same logic between Rifts and Raids?

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Rydeson
         TY Demarco.. I did go back a few post and read what you said..  I agree completely.. I had offer similar suggestion back when I played, and was told to "get lost" by the raiders..  To me, Rift is comprised of 4 different paths or play style.. You can either 1) PvP, 2) Raid, 3) dungeon crawl or 4) Rift hunting..  I wish each had their own importance.. Most seem to accept and understand that PvP isn't good to use in a Raid, and Raid gear is not optimal in PvP... Well.. Why not use that same logic between Rifts and Raids?

    You can now add dimensions to that list and rift hunting has become its own robust content and reward system.

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Vannor
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by demarc01
    Originally posted by Xhieron

    /snip

    ^ He gets it.

    Sorry if my OP was unclear to people, yes I am basically asking if non-raiders are second class. I had read about some of the Chronicles and such that Rift introduced, but had no clue as to the rewards etc.

    Yes, non-raiders are second class.  It wouldn't have taken much research on your part to figure that out.  There are whole wikis devoted to gear tiers and what it takes to get them.  You can compare stats at Zam for example.

    So adding IAs, Expert Dungeons, Master Dungeons, new types of Rifts, new world events, new zone events, new warfronts, upcoming new conquest maps, new tiers of planar gear, new tiers of PvP gear, new Chronicles.. and more, is catering to raiders?

    Raiders are getting the smallest amount of content in the game. So far they have 1 new set of upgradable gear and a couple raids. Raiding is the hardest content so it deserves the best rewards.. that's the way of all things. But in terms of how much they have to actually do, content, they have far less than any other area.

    If this game catered to raiders the new expansion would be more than 50% raid content.. and it isn't. It's probably not even 5%.

    I never said catering to anyone.  Don't put words in my mouth or play silly games.

    You're right, you didn't. I apologise for that. But other people in the thread had said things along them lines, which is probably why I added it in my reply to you. I just shouldn't have directly quoted anyone.

    If any of your gear is not top tier raid gear it is second best.  That's not an opinion and it was a direct answer to his question.

    The highlighted orange part *is* your opinion.  My answer to him didn't go there, but I don't agree with you at all.  For one, raiding isn't really that hard other than the cat herding.  It's mostly disco dancing (jump, move, and dance around based on event conditions) and simon says (don't stand in the visual effect, only stay in the blue circle, don't let the lasers touch you, etc) with dps, hps, and mitigation checks.  Once you learn the pattern or system then you're golden.  They're only harder because there are more people that can cause failure.   Individual skill between master modes and raids really isn't any different.  Why should I lose out on a reward or drop because someone else made a  mistake.  Add in the idiotic politics and the few people who control what the rest of us get, and in no way do I think raiding deserves more or better.

    Red bit: So they are harder? Thanks for sharing my 'opinion'. The bluey bit: isn't that what co-operative multiplayer is all about?

    It's a poor reward system in my opinion.  Multiiple golden paths to the same quality rewards is a much better design.  Not only that but participating in any of them should all add to that progression.  But like I said, he just wanted to know if everything but raid gear was second best and I answered him.  That's all.

    You should keep reading the posts after your quote before answering you know... I did say that raids are harder because they take more time and organisation, not player skill. But, that's the 'game' we are playing. The time it takes and organisation are a part of the game. That's like saying civilization could never be hard because all you have to do is organise things properly.

    I also explain later why multiple golden paths won't change anything. The investment required to get the best gear has to be the same across all methods, if it wasn't then those who like raiding have a right to complain. Raiding would hardly be worth it if you could get it by doing easier stuff. If you remove raiding then something else becomes the thing you do to get the best gear and another group of players could complain about that if it's something they don't like to do.

    You are not thinking about the bigger picture.

    They can remove raiding altogether or make raids as easy as Dungeons and getting planar rewards.. that'd make me happy cos I don't raid.  But it would also make some other people unhappy and the game would get bashed for being even easier.

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member

    It's an even bigger raid game than WoW...

    Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 

    I don't know about you but I dont like being looked down upon in a game. 

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Z3R01
    Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 

    thats in your head

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,209Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vannor
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I never said catering to anyone.  Don't put words in my mouth or play silly games.

    You're right, you didn't. I apologise for that. But other people in the thread had said things along them lines, which is probably why I added it in my reply to you. I just shouldn't have directly quoted anyone.

    If any of your gear is not top tier raid gear it is second best.  That's not an opinion and it was a direct answer to his question.

    The highlighted orange part *is* your opinion.  My answer to him didn't go there, but I don't agree with you at all.  For one, raiding isn't really that hard other than the cat herding.  It's mostly disco dancing (jump, move, and dance around based on event conditions) and simon says (don't stand in the visual effect, only stay in the blue circle, don't let the lasers touch you, etc) with dps, hps, and mitigation checks.  Once you learn the pattern or system then you're golden.  They're only harder because there are more people that can cause failure.   Individual skill between master modes and raids really isn't any different.  Why should I lose out on a reward or drop because someone else made a  mistake.  Add in the idiotic politics and the few people who control what the rest of us get, and in no way do I think raiding deserves more or better.

    Red bit: So they are harder? Thanks, I needed to twist your words around because I can't make my own argument stand on its own feet.

    It's a poor reward system in my opinion.  Multiiple golden paths to the same quality rewards is a much better design.  Not only that but participating in any of them should all add to that progression.  But like I said, he just wanted to know if everything but raid gear was second best and I answered him.  That's all.

    You should keep reading the posts after your quote before answering you know... I did say that raids are harder because they take more time and organisation, not player skill. But, that's the 'game' we are playing. The time it takes and organisation are a part of the game. That's like saying civilization could never be hard because all you have to do is organise things properly.

    I also explain later why multiple golden paths won't change anything. The investment required to get the best gear has to be the same across all methods, if it wasn't then those who like raiding have a right to complain. Raiding would hardly be worth it if you could get it by doing easier stuff. If you remove raiding then something else becomes the thing you do to get the best gear and another group of players could complain about that if it's something they don't like to do.

    You are not thinking about the bigger picture.

    They can remove raiding altogether or make raids as easy as Dungeons and getting planar rewards.. that'd make me happy cos I don't raid.  But it would also make some other people unhappy and the game would get bashed for being even easier.

    Please don't twist my words. I really hate that.  It's the second time I've asked this.

    No, raids are not harder and I explained why with regards to master modes.  Can you say that master mode CR is easier than any raid?  It uses the exact same mechanics.  They are only considered harder (I hightlighted in red so it would be clear to you) because of the group size.  The whole time it takes to organize people doesn't deserve a special place on a pedestal.  It's bad game design and one of the mistakes Trion has made with rift.  Hartsman had a chance for a do-over after EQ2 and he blew it with raiding.

    I also disagree about your assessment of golden paths.  If a content method can't survive on its own merits it doesn't deserve artificial life support (locking nice rewards behind it) to prop it up.  Survival of the fitest.

    I am thinking exactly about the bigger picture, it's just that our visions are different.  Raiding panders to a much smaller cross section than any other play style.  Many of the raiders in my group preferred master modes because you could play with competent players and not waste 3 hours with scrubs.  Not only that but you could escape the hideous power plays and control freaks who like to control large groups of people for ego reasons.

    You equate easy mode with raid removal.  Have you ever done master modes?  If you have then you're not being honest about ezmode dungeon rewards.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,209Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    Originally posted by Z3R01

    Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 


    thats in your head

    Well, to be fair that is the question the OP asked.  It is in the heads of us who like to game for nice items.  The op wanted to know if the nicest items are all behind raid locks and that answer is yes.  From the perspective of "is this gear good enough for me to enjoy myself" then source stone and overland gear is great.  From the perspective of "where can I find the ultimate progression gear" then it's about raids and other gear doesn't measure up.

    The wow comparison he made makes no sense to me though.  They seem about the same with their end game gear focus.

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Vannor
    /snip

    Please don't twist my words. I really hate that.  It's the second time I've asked this.

    No, raids are not harder and I explained why with regards to master modes.  Can you say that master mode CR is easier than any raid?  It uses the exact same mechanics.  They are only considered harder (I hightlighted in red so it would be clear to you) because of the group size.  The whole time it takes to organize people doesn't deserve a special place on a pedestal.  It's bad game design and one of the mistakes Trion has made with rift.  Hartsman had a chance for a do-over after EQ2 and he blew it with raiding.

    I also disagree about your assessment of golden paths.  If a content method can't survive on its own merits it doesn't deserve artificial life support (locking nice rewards behind it) to prop it up.  Survival of the fitest.

    I am thinking exactly about the bigger picture, it's just that our visions are different.  Raiding panders to a much smaller cross section than any other play style.  Many of the raiders in my group preferred master modes because you could play with competent players and not waste 3 hours with scrubs.  Not only that but you could escape the hideous power plays and control freaks who like to control large groups of people for ego reasons.

    You equate easy mode with raid removal.  Have you ever done master modes?  If you have then you're not being honest about ezmode dungeon rewards.

    lol I'm not twisting your words, you're really cynical. You clearly said they are harder. Doesn't matter why they are harder. If you can't say exactly what you mean, don't blame me. If you think by harder I meant the game difficulty, I didn't. Which is probably where we have our wires crossed. I could say that elite mode in CoD is only considered harder because the enemies have better AI and more hit points, yet they do the same thing to you. Doesn't matter what the only is.. the 'only' is the thing that makes it harder. Adding considered doesn't change anything.. if something isn't hard it is not considered hard. But for the sake of avoiding confusion.. lets change the word from hard to demanding (or something like that). You might not think the raids are harder than other content.. but they are more demanding. More demanding on your time and your patience. That is what I mean by it being harder.

    Master dungeons are shorter and smaller than raids, they are less demanding. That makes them easier to approach, easier to organise, easier to get into and easier to finish if you only want to play for a set amount of time. Doing them may be about the same difficulty. Being 'able' to do them is easier. That aspect of raiding definately deserves strong consideration because that's the prime reason we don't to do them in the first place. To us it's the most important factor. If the time it takes to organise raids, the way they are organised and the time it takes to do them doesn't deserve a place on pedestal and should just be ignored, what is it about raids that makes you not want to do them?

    I agree with what you said in blue, I think raids are rubbish and that they wouldn't survive on their own merits. I would always pick a dungeon run over a raid if the rewards were the same. That's me though. I don't know a game that has ever removed their raids or made their rewards worth less so we'd just be speculating about what would happen.

     

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,209Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vannor

    lol I'm not twisting your words, you're really cynical. You clearly said they are harder. Doesn't matter why they are harder. If you can't say exactly what you mean, don't blame me. If you think by harder I meant the game difficulty, I didn't. Which is probably where we have our wires crossed. I could say that elite mode in CoD is only considered harder because the enemies have better AI and more hit points, yet they do the same thing to you. Doesn't matter what the only is.. the 'only' is the thing that makes it harder. Adding considered doesn't change anything.. if something isn't hard it is not considered hard. But for the sake of avoiding confusion.. lets change the word from hard to demanding (or something like that). You might not think the raids are harder than other content.. but they are more demanding. More demanding on your time and your patience. That is what I mean by it being harder.

    Master dungeons are shorter and smaller than raids, they are less demanding. That makes them easier to approach, easier to organise, easier to get into and easier to finish if you only want to play for a set amount of time. Doing them may be about the same difficulty. Being 'able' to do them is easier. That aspect of raiding definately deserves strong consideration because that's the prime reason we don't to do them in the first place. To us it's the most important factor. If the time it takes to organise raids, the way they are organised and the time it takes to do them doesn't deserve a place on pedestal and should just be ignored, what is it about raids that makes you not want to do them?

    I agree with what you said in blue, I think raids are rubbish and that they wouldn't survive on their own merits. I would always pick a dungeon run over a raid if the rewards were the same. That's me though. I don't know a game that has ever removed their raids or made their rewards worth less so we'd just be speculating about what would happen.

    Ok, I corrected myself by adding that they are considered harder due to the number of people.  It's not something I consider a valid factor for difficulty and reward calculations.  I'll try and be much more explicit in the future.

    Master mode CR is not shorter than either GSB, DH, or GP, especially with the challenges.  They can be more demanding and more difficult because you have only 5 people to cover it all and if any one person goes down it's much easier to wipe.

    While larger raids can be difficult if more people don't know what they're doing they are actually easier if everyone does know the dance.  MM dungeons can just be brutal.  Maybe I should change my wording and say raids are easier only because more competent people give you more flex room.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Foomerang Originally posted by Z3R01 Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 
    thats in your head
    Well, to be fair that is the question the OP asked.  It is in the heads of us who like to game for nice items.  The op wanted to know if the nicest items are all behind raid locks and that answer is yes.  From the perspective of "is this gear good enough for me to enjoy myself" then source stone and overland gear is great.  From the perspective of "where can I find the ultimate progression gear" then it's about raids and other gear doesn't measure up.

    The wow comparison he made makes no sense to me though.  They seem about the same with their end game gear focus.


    Theres a difference between wanting the nicest gear and being treated like a second class citizen. Thats what I was responding to.

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by Foomerang

    Originally posted by Z3R01 Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 
    thats in your head
    Well, to be fair that is the question the OP asked.  It is in the heads of us who like to game for nice items.  The op wanted to know if the nicest items are all behind raid locks and that answer is yes.  From the perspective of "is this gear good enough for me to enjoy myself" then source stone and overland gear is great.  From the perspective of "where can I find the ultimate progression gear" then it's about raids and other gear doesn't measure up.

     

    The wow comparison he made makes no sense to me though.  They seem about the same with their end game gear focus.


     

    Theres a difference between wanting the nicest gear and being treated like a second class citizen. Thats what I was responding to.

    Rift is all about raiding, everything else is secondary. 

    If you don't have the best items, if you arent in the high tier raid guilds you are nothing. 

    Its not in my head, it's how progression based raid games have worked since EQ.

     

    OP don't let these guys spin the BS. Rift = Raiding. If you dont want to raid find another game.

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Z3R01
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by Foomerang Originally posted by Z3R01 Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 
    thats in your head
    Well, to be fair that is the question the OP asked.  It is in the heads of us who like to game for nice items.  The op wanted to know if the nicest items are all behind raid locks and that answer is yes.  From the perspective of "is this gear good enough for me to enjoy myself" then source stone and overland gear is great.  From the perspective of "where can I find the ultimate progression gear" then it's about raids and other gear doesn't measure up.   The wow comparison he made makes no sense to me though.  They seem about the same with their end game gear focus.
      Theres a difference between wanting the nicest gear and being treated like a second class citizen. Thats what I was responding to.
    Rift is all about raiding, everything else is secondary. 

    If you don't have the best items, if you arent in the high tier raid guilds you are nothing. 

    Its not in my head, it's how progression based raid games have worked since EQ.

     

    OP don't let these guys spin the BS. Rift = Raiding. If you dont want to raid find another game.


    Not sure what the agenda is, but thats simply not true. I dont raid. I dont even do dungeons anymore. I have more things to do in rift than most other current themeparks. Game isnt raid or die. That is a fact.

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Z3R01

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by Foomerang

    Originally posted by Z3R01 Sure you can do other things but you would be considered a second class citizen. 
    thats in your head
    Well, to be fair that is the question the OP asked.  It is in the heads of us who like to game for nice items.  The op wanted to know if the nicest items are all behind raid locks and that answer is yes.  From the perspective of "is this gear good enough for me to enjoy myself" then source stone and overland gear is great.  From the perspective of "where can I find the ultimate progression gear" then it's about raids and other gear doesn't measure up.   The wow comparison he made makes no sense to me though.  They seem about the same with their end game gear focus.
      Theres a difference between wanting the nicest gear and being treated like a second class citizen. Thats what I was responding to.
    Rift is all about raiding, everything else is secondary. 

     

    If you don't have the best items, if you arent in the high tier raid guilds you are nothing. 

    Its not in my head, it's how progression based raid games have worked since EQ.

     

    OP don't let these guys spin the BS. Rift = Raiding. If you dont want to raid find another game.


     

    Not sure what the agenda is, but thats simply not true. I dont raid. I dont even do dungeons anymore. I have more things to do in rift than most other current themeparks. Game isnt raid or die. That is a fact.

    It's not an agenda...

    Its a fact that once you add a progression raid system in your game it becomes the focus.

    You say you don't raid, fine but im pretty sure you have an underpowered character that many would consider worthless.

    Maybe the OP could play like you? Who knows. Maybe he could play in a bubble and ignore the entire community around him. Maybe he would be happy doing half the DPs a raid tank does, maybe he's cool with getting booted out of groups because all you have is garbage dungeon gear on? 

    We should ask him.

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYPosts: 1,714Member Uncommon

    i would call the endgame of rift the most "diverse" endgame of today's theme-parks.

     

    raids are a chunk of it but not the whole thing.  especially now that there's already afairly competitive community of dimension builders (at least on my server!)   there are also crafting. expert 5 person dungeons, world events, IA grinding and faction grinding.

     

    personally i like to raid but only in small amounts... most 2 a week, and rift fits that bill nicely.

     

    now if i could only level all the way from 52 to 60 >_<

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

    Dwight D Eisenhower

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