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Originally posted by Silentstorm Originally posted by demarc01 Originally posted by Silentstorm Between everyone who said its a gear grind didn't actually DO the dungeons or see the loot. New gear in combination makes you 10% stronger and gives you magic find which is a useless stat anyway. But the sheer amount of effort you need to do it isn't close to worth it. But anyone who does grats to them they earned that 10% stronger. Doesn't mean jack in pvp and last time I checked dps can't even be validly measured in a game with no stand in one spot fights. So you basically like I said many times how people bitching who don't know wtf they are talking about. You get people who also NEVER did fractals or even seen the gear. Reading post of people who don't know wtf they are talking about. They become convince with no homework and makes another don't know wtf they are talking about person. Which leads to a mob of them swearing they are all right when in fact the whole mob DOESN'T know wtf they are talking about. This leads to mainly everyone who does know ignoring them. And them being labeled useless trolls on the forums also ignored by the company itself. It's a never ending cycle of stupid you can't fight it only let it kill itself in a corner somewhere.
"makes you 10% stronger"
"sheer amount of effort you need to do it isn't close to worth it"
= Gear Grind.
Not sure what your argument was in that post.
Its a gear grind plain and simple. Am I gonna rage about it all over the forums? Nope. Simply not worth my time. However when someone (the OP) asks for opinions about it, I'll answer. The reason people are upset it because it is a gear grind, you said so much yourself, and Anet's Manifesto stated (for many month's pre-release) they hated gear grinds too and would'ent be using them as a method of progression.
As for not being worth it, thats subjective. To YOU its not worth it, apparently to alot of people it IS worth it. I'm like you, I dont care enough about the gear to grind for it, however i'm not nieve enough to say that 5 people on a dungeon run each with a 10% advantage wont add up ....
ATM one of the main issues is that Anet has added this ONE path of pregression, with promises of alternative paths coming soon(tm), meaning that for players like me who dont give a damm about Fractal gear, trying to run other dungeons / events becomes harder. Try getting a group for Arah when everyone is busy spamming "LFM Fractals Lvel X"
Yes the new dungeon is fun, do I want to spend ALL my GW2 playtime in it? Nope. So atm I just dont log in, Hav'ent for a few days. WIll try back when this crap blows over.
So why did you level past lvl 1? You went all the way up to 80 replacing gear if you didn't want to replace gear don't play a mmo. Would you have complained if it was already there? What was we supposed to do for a year keeping doing events for pallete swaps? If you really think someone anyone was going to stick around for just that your insane.
My advice to you is go play something you get all the gear at level 1 if you dont want to do anything. In this case its optional you don't even have to do it. It wont stop you from pvp no because it doesn't effect it. PVE we all share loot in kills so what do you care if someone kills something faster.
This is a classic example you dont know wtf your talking about. And they're is far too many of you like that. Just complaining and running your mouth and you have no clue to whats going on. Just blah blah manifesto shaddup go play hello kitty island adventure if you want to be lazy. I heard they give you gear just for logging in.
Complaining about new gear and the fact you haved to get your behind out of Lions Arche to get it heaven forbid. Wish I could smack ALL the lazy asses in the mmo community with the biggest pimp hand i could find.
Yeah, repeating content for hours on end to grind a +10% stats increase is the epitome of a productive person...
Yes, games are supposed to be leisure activities the fun being the biggest reward of it.
By just playing the game and have fun one can be level 80 (truth be told there is no real reason to prolong the levelling curve to 80, 30-40 levels would be enough to present all the challensges of the open world).
By just playing and having fun one can get exotic items.
Enjoying the game play combat and build strategy without being burdened by hours of repeating content?
Oh yeah, doing the events for a year is crazy, but doing the same dungeons over and over just because it rewards an item that has bigger stats is completely sane.
People being lazy IN THEIR FREE TIME WHILE PLAYING A GAME?
It is the end of the world!
Currently playing: GW2Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
The fractals just introduced the lack of stat cap. In that sense its now likely that every now and then the content patches will add more ascended items, and people will then drive through content for those items. (instead of driving through it for intrinsic value alone such as FUN yeah! - and an extrinsic value to underscore that fun)
It also means a lot of the content patches will be aimed at keeping that mill going, which then means the "other" content (whatever it is) equals less of the cake in total.
So while noones forcing anyone to do the new fractals for gearing - there is going to be less other options as far as new content goes down the road. Unless anyone would argue that there isnt going to be a lot more than 3 slots for ascended items. Eventually these items will be a part of what content developed is based upon; such as the agony stat.
Its more about the overall direction of the game vs. manifesto with this patch than it is about; there being only 3 items, or "you dont have to do this".
I dont see gw2 as a gear grind only (and I dont play it anymore, because I get no fun as reward). But everything about gw2 is a grind. Wether it is tokens for gear armor (70 runs for a set?) or the 250-350 lodestones for non legendary weapons. Or the grind for a legendary, or the grind for gold for cultural armor. - All of it is a grind.
That would not matter even a little bit, if the grind wasnt in a game that is made to diminish returns on grinding. - Through the anti loot farm code. Like wanting to get your hands on 250 of some t6 crafting mat, but then having to skirt around to less efficient areas because you are hit with an anti farm code - this is just mindboggling. WTH? Dont make recipes require grinding the same lvl mobs if we arent supposed to grind same level mobs over and over and over again. (which we arent. We are supposed to purchase gems, to sell for gold, to purchase someone elses grinded mats on the auctioneer so that their measly grind together with outs can move towards the 250 we need)
It also wouldnt matter that much if the grind might take place in exiting and challenging areas with lots of different stuff to do. - But it doesnt. - Anyone who insists that gw2 isnt a grind isnt playing gw2. Its all extrinsic reward at this point. There is zero fun to be had unless you are new to the game ( then you have fun while levelling and learning the classes) - but outside 1-2 months of familiarising yourself with the game the grind becomes apparent, and it completely reigns the endgame mechanics. - There isnt a single accomplishment for your character outside map completion that doesnt involve surrendering to the grind, wether it is tokens, gold or karma - now it just includes the new fractals ( and thereby the ascended gear)
Originally posted by Arcondo87 MMORPG's CANNOT go arround a gear grind they all will have it eventually...its build in its code. THAT is what a MMORPG IS.
And that would be great. If the grind wasnt set in a game that has anti farm code - diminishing returns, forcing you to move your character on their rails, and zapping you if you try to jump outside the railguards.
And grinds can be fun. They can even be fun and rewarding at the same time. - and they can be done (like they were originally in gw2) without adding a vertical stat ladder.
I agree OP, it's a big fuzz over nothing.
I have already gotten 6 mist essences and two ascended rings in my short time running the dungeons.
That's enough to get the backpiece crafted as well. The 250 mat's are already sitting in the bank, because i collect but dont craft.
So the grind for the 250 could be something. But, you can buy those anyways(and they arent really expensive)
Dunno, i'm just happy to have something to do in game again
The Deep Web is sca-ry.
Yup, a bunch of smoke blowing over nothing. The rate at which they plan to release items is so slow it cant under any definition of the word be considered a grind. While other games release entire tiers of gear in which you have to grind through a full set in a short amount of time, they have only added 2 slots, ring and backpack. Sure there will be more items added later, and once they finish all 12 slots of Ascended, i only hope to god they make another tier above that.
12 slots at once, and only one way to get them would be a grind. Dungeon tokens for gear in the original release is 10x the grind it is for Ascended. Sure the backpack takes some crafting, but that grind isnt the same for everyone, and it only takes a few days to reach difficulty 10 where you start getting Ascended rings to drop. And they arent that rare at all, usually at least one person gets a ring every other run. And nearly everyone gets that silly vial of mist essence before they even reach difficulty 5.
I just dont get all the fuss. If it were a full set of gear, all 12 slots, all at once, and they planned to add another set every couple months then sure. But one or two pieces at a time, and the full set taking an entire year to be released, im happy with that. A new set every single year with each new expansion is still far from grind.
Originally posted by Quizzical It's not that GW2 is now all about gear grind. It's that it attracted an audience of players who specifically wanted to get away from gear grinding, so any movement toward gear grinding is worrisome. After Eye of the North, ArenaNet doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt when they say they're not going to add more grinding.
Yes and on top of that, the PVP is absolutely terrible, by terrible I mean boring, very boring. They have more to worry about, most of the initial core players wanted not only decent balanced pvp but Esport quality pvp, what we have is an over simplified zerg fest. Now if pvp were great and rooms were full and the maps were so good we didnt even know there was a pve area in the game. Or if WvWvW were so insanely good we never left and spent hours tormenting the other side, then maybe introducing Ascended gear would not have been that bad, it would have pissed us off, but not that much.
However pvp is not like that, most of use have the attention span to get through a few matches of sPVP which is incredibly mind numbing and one deminsional, its no better in WvW since its basically Zerg the gate and well... Just zerg everything is how pvp is done in the entire game, .. pvp doesn't just have balance issues, its structurally bad, its more than about tweaking a few skills, entire skill sets and trees are absolutely worthless, it would take a book to explain all the things that are wrong with just one class.
Originally posted by Silentstorm Originally posted by demarc01 Originally posted by Silentstorm
LOL your a funny guy.
Leveling was fun, seeing the world etc. Did I *need* levels to do it? Nope. Would have played the game for fun anyway.
This line just makes me LOL -
What was we supposed to do for a year keeping doing events for pallete swaps? If you really think someone anyone was going to stick around for just that your insane.
Funny people did exactly that in GW1 for 7 years!! Lot of insane people out there huh? The fact that GW2 was touted as having no gear grind and only cosmetic grinds leads me to believe that your the muppet here. You appear to have joined the wrong game. (Although now after all you and your fellow muppets tantrums it now IS your game) I bet your one of the cry babies on the Anet forums who was screaming about being bored b/c the legendary was too hard *sob* and you had no other carrots to chase!!
It does effect PvP btw. Sure no effect in sPvS but Wv3 is PvP too, Maby you dont know about Wv3. Theres a little tab at the top of the screen that takes you there, if you stop chasing the carrot and actually play the game maby you'll notice it. How you can say 7-12% statistical boost wont effect PvP is asinnine. Keep telling yourself that.
Your the one who has no clue WTF you are talking about. Maby you should have done just a little research into the game before you hopped on board, leveled your dumb arse to 80 and started screaming for a gear grind.
As for calling me lazy ... lol. You know nothing about me, nothing about my past gaming history. Because I bought a game that was touted as having no gear grind and no linear progression, to see that changed 3 months in .. I am lazy? Again your running around talking about shit you have no clue about. Telling me I have no clue what I'm talking about when oddly I have several maxed out characters, I've run FoTM .. yet I have no clue what I am talking about? LOL. I'd say I know exactly what I'm talking about .. just because it does not line up with your opinions does not make it wrong. When you leave your burger flipping job and go into the real world you'll learn skills like seeing both sides, accepting other people have differing opinions and that insulting them generally just means you get insulted back ... asshat. (Had to add the insult on the end there to drive home that point)
Take your own advice, stop running your mouth of and sit and think for a min. The people who are irritated by Anets sudden u-turn on this have a reason to be. Just because the carrot chasing appeals to your simple little brain and you are devoid of the ability to see things from others point of view does not make you right. Just makes you another carrot chasing little twerp.
Yes I made personal insults towards you, in return for the ones you made at me. Enjoy fuming at the screen as you no doubt type your witty reply thats supposed to upset me. Remember while you waste time arguing with me, your not chasing your shineys !
I don't think the people upset with the gear progression are mad because of having to grind gear. Many of them will happily play other games and do the grind.
They are upset because they were told when they purchased the game that there would not be gear progression. And for them, it was a reason why they purchased the game.
It doesn't bother me either way. I do think that some of them have gone way overboard in their reaction to it. But I've seen people go nuts over things that WoW has done too (CRZ anyone?). It seems to be typical of this generation of MMO players.
I'll agree that most MMO's have had gear grid. Developers cannot program faster than goal-oriented players can consume content. Sub-based MMO's needed something to keep people p(l)aying. That is what an MMO has been. This is also what ANet said GW2 would not be. The game was supposed to be about everything in the game being its endgame, no gear progression, no grind.
However, this vision was poorly implemented. Down-scaling was not implemented so that level 80's were challenged in low-level zones. Rewards were not commensurate with effort everywhere in the game. So, unless endgame leveled people were doing map completion, they had no reason to visit anything but the zones with the best chance for drops. Also, once people had max gear, and the look they wanted, there was no reason to gather further money. Many of the chain DE's are challening but doable with the right amount of people. Too few, can't get them done, too many and it's just a mess of AoE effects and people mindlessly pushing buttons.
GW2 has taught us several things. (1) A significant portion of people who play MMO's will not play if the rewards don't measure up to their expectations -- no matter how much fun playing is. Even if there is no sub, there needs to be a carrot. (2) While one level of max gear was good enough for GW1, it was not for GW2. Like other MMO's, GW2 needed people to want to continue to play, so they would potentially buy gems, and be around for possible expansions. (3) While title pursuits, and pursuit of certain weapon or armor skins was enough in GW1, it was not enough in GW2. Maybe the bar was set too low, or maybe ANet did not figure that people would bypass tons of things to get that title/skin. It boggles the mind that ANet could be that out of touch with how players play MMO's. However, the dungeon token DR system they threw in to combat speed runs argues that is exactly what happened. It certainly seemed like it took a lot longer to get a title (say the Norn reputation title) in GW1 than it took people to get map 100%.
Regardless, it is too soon to say that GW2 has become a gear grinder. One tier of gear between Exotic and Legendary does not mean a gear grind. If they, as promised, open up different ways to get Ascended Gear, then maybe they can salvage their manifesto while still appealing to fans of standard MMO's. Time will tell.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
The players in an uproar regarding Anet's sudden change in direction have every right to be upset. They spent their hard earned money on the game under the pretense that GW2 would not be about a gear grind/treadmill. So to suddenly be told, three months after release and after the company took their money, that the game would be turning into exactly what they were told it would never be, a gear grind/treadmill, is not only a deceptive and underhanded tactic on the part of the company, it is a despicable act of betrayal to the loyal and long time customers of Anet.
Just because gear grind hamsters love to be lead by the nose and placed on a hamster wheel for months at the notion of receiving a +1 to stats, doesn't mean every player feels the same way. Many of us are smarter than that. We know this is nothing but lazy development that appeals to a simple mindset. There are many other better ways to add content and progression to a game that does not involve adding a +1 to gear that only passes as progression because it is then paired to fight mobs possessing +1 HP bars.
It is players like you pro gear grind hamsters who will ruin the advancement of MMOs. Until you wake up and realize that your support for this design is flawed and better suited for hamsters on a hamster wheel you will never realize the true potential of an advanced and well thought out MMORPG.
As long as they dont start adding content that REQUIRES super uber gear to be able to complete it, they can add all they want.
I am having a ton of FUN in the game, playing THE GAME, loot means nothing to me and from what I can tell going from a set of yellow gear to Exalted armor, the difference between the two sets is instead of getting clocked for 1200 by an undead CHICKED I get smacked for 1150...thats with found Knights pieces (toughness), two Carrion(Condition) and a rune of undead in all 6 (toughness+condition).
With such a small difference between the two tiers, I really dont care if they add more or not, as long as the main focus of the game is FUN.
You don't have to grind for the gear if you don't want to.
To put it bluntly +2 to a stat is not gonna do shit in PvP.
I'm not going for Ascended gear and I'm not mad at all. Stop whining.
Originally posted by andre369 I would like to hear some of the reasons why you dislike the new gear. Whats wrong with having a little gear progression other than legendaries?
a) There are a million better ways to add progression into the game than through stats, which bloat the game and lock out content to newer players.
b) It probably won't stay "a little" for long. Anet promised there would never be a gear grind. Now there's a gear grind. Who is to say they won't continue to add more and more?
Originally posted by demarc01 There was always grind in GW2, the thing was it was always optional cosmetic grind. Legendary weapons had the exact same stats as exotic's. People who wanted them were free to spend the time on them knowing full well there was no statistical advantage to them. Anet said they added Acended as a bridge between the Exotic's and Legendary levels. Fine and all as far as TIME goes, there was no reason however to add a statistical advantage to the gear though. They could have stuck with Infusions (A stat only required to progress in Fractals) and most would have been happy. Adding a gear tier goes against the inital sales spew the buyers were given. Exoitc's are *pretty* easy to get. They are not *handed* to you at level 80 and there is some effort involved in getting them. There really was no reason to add stats to the Acended gear past the infusion effects to counter the dungeon debuff. Gw1 used this model of no linear progression for 7 years and did fine, GW2 caved after 3 mos. Thats why buyers are irritated. They were sold a produce with a promise (the manifesto) and feel that promise has already been broken.
You are talking about the Hall of Monument stuff but that was added years down the road.
Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC You don't have to grind for the gear if you don't want to. To put it bluntly +2 to a stat is not gonna do shit in PvP. I'm not going for Ascended gear and I'm not mad at all. Stop whining.
This excuse that players don't have to grind for gear if they don't want to is a tired one that only passes as a response because whoever posts it lacks a better comeback. The bottom line is that none of us have to do anything in an MMORPG if we dont want to. Heck, you don't have to get to level 5 if you dont want to either. You don't have to do hearts, DE's, vistas, dungeons, crafting ... none of it! You can just sit in Lion's Arch with the rest of the server hamsters yelling "LF!M for FoTM" for that matter.
Having said that, for me this is not about the gear grind BS. It is about the despicable underhanded shenanigans of a company that threw its loyal long time customer under the bus for the sake of a buck. Currently, players that payed for the game cannot even post in their forums to voice their displeasure without having their posts deleted. Some are even being banned. This company does not deserve the benefit of the doubt. Even those who are, for whatever reason, enjoying the game should be condeming this company for this behavior. Its a matter of principal. You should not be turning your head simply because in this particular instance the despicable act did not affect you. Only the weak and selfish choose to turn their heads and ignore this type of behavior by a company toward its paying customers. Remember, next time it could be you. And you know what they say about karma, it can be a b**tch, and its coming for you.
People say that green jello is green because of poisonous nickel compounds. zomg!
Do you suppose a company the size of Kraft spends a significant budget on "people say" mythology?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Ascended gear is only neded if you intend to do higher scales in Fractal of the Mists. Level 10+. Farming just for the stats is not worthy. Farming for challenge is different story.
Originally posted by greenreen Originally posted by LacedOpium Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC You don't have to grind for the gear if you don't want to. To put it bluntly +2 to a stat is not gonna do shit in PvP. I'm not going for Ascended gear and I'm not mad at all. Stop whining.
I'm agreeing on your thinking, it is about principal and punishment for speaking up. The punishment for holding them accountable is deplorable. I have noticed that lots of people that used to post on the forum now aren't. Having been banned myself I can imagine that they either got that fate or simply gave up. These were people that posted over 3 times on the subject, usually the first was shock, the second was trying to bargain and say what they would accept to stay and the final was either please talk to us or I'm thinking about leaving now. Their voices are silent now, either they were squelched or gave up - it's not possible to tell but knowing that I got banned and I watched some of their legit posts being deleted. I have to believe that the more likely lex parsimoniae route is that they were shut up and told to move on because I saw and experienced evidence of that.
First off, the person you are responding to is misinformed and that's what weakens their entire argument that it doesn't impact anything.
There is no stat difference of only +2.
This image shows a side by side comparison of the orange gear to the new pink gear.
In this example there is a +10 stat difference and +3% magic find difference.
Add in that someone can get the infusion slot filled with another +5 stat increase.
This is just one of 3 new items that will eventually become a whole set.
So, generically multiply that (average) +15 stats * 14 pieces of gear = +210 stat difference (guesstimate because there is no full set to see yet). It's rumored that there will be weapons too, that would be either 1 or 2 more slots to add on.
To get 210 points in traits costs 21 points - for reference there are only 70 trait points that a lvl 80 character has. That's the impact it makes even if you don't know about playing the game or don't play.
You can see that it gives great advantage.
In W3 especially it will be something that they have to work toward getting to stay competitive.
Since W3 is always an afterthought and there is no way to get the items in W3.
Again, like people mention, it went from "open ended do whatever you want in end game" to ... go dungeon grind for this gear. The longer they wait to introduce the gear to W3 the longer it will take for people to get it.
W3 already has a major issue with invisible players that they claim they haven't had a fix for in over a month of the game's 3 month history. What do you consider more important, pushing out ascended gear versions for W3 or making invisible players show? These are delays that they brought on by not releasing everything like they used to, when it was ready.
My personal opinion is that they won't release a W3 version until 6 mos. or more from now. I think they will be slow because they have been slow on most of the other W3 changes. There has to be more priority for invisible people vs extra stats.
There is deception in saying do whatever you want in end game to ... do what I want you to do in end game. Right now for W3 people the game is absolutely - do what I want you to do in end game ... if you want to compete.
Just so you know ANet has multiple teams assigned to specific aspects of the game. They don't hold off their Living World team's milestone just because the Live Response team isn't done with theirs yet.
I guess the crying will just never stop. If the gear was used in sPvP that would be a problem, but the only PvP the gear can be used in is WvWvW. You can be effective in WvWvW at lvl 1 with no gear at all, so who gives a bakers if someone has ascended gear?
It's not like you are gonna be doing any 1 vs 1 in WvWvW, and if you are then you are not contributing to your team because you are running around like an idiot and you just happen to run into another idiot.
Its gear progression to run a more challenging dungeon. Not a damn thing wrong with that. These stats are not gonna give you any significant advantage in WvWvW PvP if you are playing WvWvW to its true purpose.