Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Sandbox...PvP...PvP...and more PvP. Where is the PvE?

TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYPosts: 911Member Uncommon

Why is every single sandbox that has been released in the past 5 years been PvP and PvP and PvP?

 

Asheron's Call...sandbox...does have a PvP server...but plenty of PvE servers...but its ancient

Istaria is probably my favorite, only because of playable dragons...but its ancient too

There was SWG...personally I didn't like it...I think I was way more into Anarchy Online back then, which after the rough launch, was what I played (along with Istaria)

 

The only modern PvE sandbox that still looks good is Saga of Ryzom...its fun...but the game is so dead. No one is playing it...even the trial isle is completely dead. See 1-3 people at most in town, sometimes I'm only one in the main town...

 

You (well us?) sandboxers complain about lack of sandbox...but its WAY worse for those that want PvE sandbox. At least you guys get way more choices that are modern, and don't have to go to an ancient MMO or an MMO that is completely dead.

 

And no, after playing WoW for years...every themepark game I've played (even GW2), I go "okay...done all the content...like WoW way more (mostly for the lore and it being warcraft)...next"...I don't want a themepark MMO. If I did, I'll just play WoW, it does themepark the best imo. But I'm done with WoW and themepark MMOs. I can't get into them at all.

 

No, what I want a PvE sandbox game. And the only choice out there is Ryzom...and I would play that, if the game wasn't so dead...I actually thought the server merges would boost population, but after merges, population plummeted to worse than vanguard ever was. I've never seen such a dead game. At least vanguard ALWAYS had 20+ people on the trial isle. Ryzom there is 1-3 (or 0 before I get on it)...and at peak maybe its 8 or 9, once in a while it gets to 10 (very rare)...its just so dead.

 

So when you complain about lack of sandbox...think of those that want a PvE sandbox...we literally have no MODERN choices at all.

 

image
«13

Comments

  • GormokGormok memphis, TNPosts: 379Member
    I approve of this thread. I loved Asheron's Call back in the day, and WoW was fun until Cata. I gave up on MMOs completely after the SWTOR fiasco. FF14 ARR looks promising but videos really dont give the real scope of how big and open the world really is. Other than that I am not really looking forward to any mmos, devs are either making action based combat or pvp focused mmos. Which I have no interest in, but I guess companies are saying  "it's time for us old geezers to move along".
  • fernetekfernetek North Adams, MAPosts: 61Member

    There is Greed Monger. It has PvE in most of the map and only a few areas of FFA PvP.

     

  • joonkp1976joonkp1976 seoulPosts: 93Member
    It goes back to before WOW that is I think when companies started making keybaord based control-abled lamer then mouse veggie games.  I mean games like Ultima Online was great all with mouse veggie control scheme.  Laid back PvE mouse veggie games are my favorites as compared to super hyped hyper actioned or PvP modeled games.  My favorited game ever is Lineage 2, then Aion second, and third would be currently playing since it is free 'til level 49 of 50 in south korea, Rift.  Well I agree and let's enjoy gaming...  'happy' gaming, folks~!
  • NiburuNiburu BerlinPosts: 378Member Uncommon

    Xsyon just startert there kickstarter, it is mostly about building stuff and hunting animals for ressources.

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/382040989/xsyon-apocalypse

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,772Member Uncommon

    There is A Tale in the Desert, but that's more than five years old as you said.

    There is also Uncharted Waters Online, which did release in 2005 in Japan, but not until 2010 in the US.  And it's still getting new content, too, with the latest expansion released in Japan earlier this year.

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member

    Agreed.

     

    All of these pvp centric sandbox wanabe's miss the point of a virtual world just like themeparks do.  And I say this as an avid PvPer..

     

    Truth be told, a lot of the 'sandbox' MMOs that are out today are really just PvP themeparks. 

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fernetek

    There is Greed Monger. It has PvE in most of the map and only a few areas of FFA PvP.

     

    This is the game to watch if you are into PvE sandbox games.

  • GravebladeGraveblade Weston-Super-MarePosts: 406Member
    We need Ultima Online 2 damnit! :P
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon

    That is really a good question. I have nothing against PvP sandboxes but if sandboxes want to be a larger part of the MMO genre again we need different varieties.

    A game more similar to Minecraft would be a good addition to the genre...

  • StarIStarI waka wakaPosts: 924Member Uncommon
    There's planty of modern choices of what you call sandbox PvE games. It's just that some of us call them themeparks. ;)
  • ShaikeShaike NesherPosts: 301Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by StarI
    There's planty of modern choices of what you call sandbox PvE games. It's just that some of us call them themeparks. ;)

    Give examples please because i do not know any......

    Just my 2 cents...

    image

  • GrimmxGrimmx SandefjordPosts: 219Member

    Where is the Sandbox pvp?

    EVE comes to mind, but what else?

    We have like a gazillion pve games FFS.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by StarI
    There's planty of modern choices of what you call sandbox PvE games. It's just that some of us call them themeparks. ;)

    No there isnt.

    Themeparks tend to be questdriven games focused on looting stuff. There are a few hybrids like Vanguard with some sandbox parts but nothing really focused on building stuff which is the main part of real sandbox mechanics.

    Sandboxes have player created content, themeparks usually tells you what to do.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grimmx

    Where is the Sandbox pvp?

    EVE comes to mind, but what else?

    We have like a gazillion pve games FFS.

    There are a few others, like Darkfall, Mortal online and a few more. Adding a PvE sandbox wouldnt really hurt the PvP games and might actually boost sandboxes rather weak position in the genre right now. Salem is coming out pretty soon as well, and rumors say that a westernized version of Archeage isnt far away either.

    It is clear the the genre needs a few quality sandboxes right now, but sandboxes needs to vary as well. Just cloning Eve or UO aint enough, just like cloning EQ and Wow isnt.

  • GrimmxGrimmx SandefjordPosts: 219Member
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Grimmx

    Where is the Sandbox pvp?

    EVE comes to mind, but what else?

    We have like a gazillion pve games FFS.

    There are a few others, like Darkfall, Mortal online and a few more. Adding a PvE sandbox wouldnt really hurt the PvP games and might actually boost sandboxes rather weak position in the genre right now. Salem is coming out pretty soon as well, and rumors say that a westernized version of Archeage isnt far away either.

    It is clear the the genre needs a few quality sandboxes right now, but sandboxes needs to vary as well. Just cloning Eve or UO aint enough, just like cloning EQ and Wow isnt.

    No it isnt.

    Darkfall is closed for the moment. DF2 is starting up again soon, but its not certain when because they have postponed once they can do it twice.

    Mortal Online? dont make me laugh. Its an indie game insulting indie developers.

    Salem? again Indie.

    Archage, hasnt come out so why mention it?

    That leaves EvE ? EvE isnt for everyone because its a space MMO. Ive personally tried playing EVE 3 times because its the ONLY MMORPG with FFA out there now.

    Thats why find it hillarious that people post about why pve people doesnt have a sandbox pve game?

    Seriosly, get a grip. Its pve everywhere.

  • GravebladeGraveblade Weston-Super-MarePosts: 406Member

    I agree Loke but also imagine UO2.

     

    I would still play ultima online if they updated the graphics (again lol) made it run smooth and a better UI. Or a 3d version.

    Fact is, as Richard Garriot has said, they wanted to make everything interactable in the world for UO. Just because of that very fact it meant the pve was quite substantial. You could do what you want within the world when it came to tradeskills and such.

     

    Why will no one make a game like that nowadays?

     

    Time and money I guess... Companies want max profit for minimal work. People do not make a game because they are an entrepreneur and have a creative "vision". To make a game like that, especially if it was 3d, would be a hell of alot of work and it is a gamble but it could also be the best mmorpg ever.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    So when you complain about lack of sandbox...think of those that want a PvE sandbox...we literally have no MODERN choices at all.

    There are plenty of PvE sandboxes; they're just not for you. Most AAA devs aren't going to create a PvE sandbox for the average jaded gamer because they know that the vocal minority will tear it to pieces as "fail" within minutes after the first announcement of it. Making a game where half of your PR and marketing is spent trying to counter the negativity from the same people you are making it for is just not a sound business plan.

    ATITD, Free Realms and Puzzle Pirates are three sandbox style MMOs. None of them you want.

    Of the sandbox-style games that also have a heavy social influence - Second Life, Kaneva, There, vMTV - you don't want those either.

    The vocal sandbox crowd has complained themselves into irrelevance, so that style of game, which is predominantly PvE, is designed to target other segments.

    The most classic example is UO. UO has both PvE sandbox and PvE sandbox on every shard. You never hear players extolling the virtues and greatness of Trammel, which means devs aren't hearing it either. There's a definite market for PvE sandboxes which is why devs are creating them. Unfortunately you're not part of that target market.

     

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • dariuszpdariuszp PrzeworskPosts: 182Member
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Why is every single sandbox that has been released in the past 5 years been PvP and PvP and PvP?

     Because all sandbox game are player oriented. PVP in that game does not meant you HAVE to kill other players. It mean you CAN kill other players.

    That force players to cooperate. Look at EVE. There you have some corps you  don't want to mess with. You don't engage their members no mater what if you have no strength behind you. Why ? Because they will kill you over and over every time you come in range of their canons. 

    Asheron's Call...sandbox...does have a PvP server...but plenty of PvE servers...but its ancient

    Istaria is probably my favorite, only because of playable dragons...but its ancient too

    There was SWG...personally I didn't like it...I think I was way more into Anarchy Online back then, which after the rough launch, was what I played (along with Istaria)

     

    The only modern PvE sandbox that still looks good is Saga of Ryzom...its fun...but the game is so dead. No one is playing it...even the trial isle is completely dead. See 1-3 people at most in town, sometimes I'm only one in the main town...

     

    You (well us?) sandboxers complain about lack of sandbox...but its WAY worse for those that want PvE sandbox. At least you guys get way more choices that are modern, and don't have to go to an ancient MMO or an MMO that is completely dead.

     

    And no, after playing WoW for years...every themepark game I've played (even GW2), I go "okay...done all the content...like WoW way more (mostly for the lore and it being warcraft)...next"...I don't want a themepark MMO. If I did, I'll just play WoW, it does themepark the best imo. But I'm done with WoW and themepark MMOs. I can't get into them at all.

     

    No, what I want a PvE sandbox game. And the only choice out there is Ryzom...and I would play that, if the game wasn't so dead...I actually thought the server merges would boost population, but after merges, population plummeted to worse than vanguard ever was. I've never seen such a dead game. At least vanguard ALWAYS had 20+ people on the trial isle. Ryzom there is 1-3 (or 0 before I get on it)...and at peak maybe its 8 or 9, once in a while it gets to 10 (very rare)...its just so dead.

     Yeah but what you want to do in PVE sandbox ? Run around, holding hands with other players and killing mindless monsters ? You want to build castle or something ? What is the point of no one will siege it ?

    Sandbox is all about tools and freedom to do whatever you want with them. That's it. This is why Day Z is so much fun. If you kill player - he stay dead. If he kill you, you stay dead. War Z on the other hand "kill" your player for around 24 hours. You can't play that character for next day if he is killed.

    This create tension. This is fun. 2 or more players helping each other in Day Z is a GREAT help. BUT every time you encounter one (especially well armed) you have no idea if in next hours he will still help you or shoot you in the back.

    This is something we want from sandbox games. World with actions and consequences. With tension. Running around killing monsters is stupid and pointless. It's boring. And it's give you nothing since if you are dead you will just respawn on some safe location nerby.

    In real sandbox MMO that I love you eather stay dead or you will loose all your stuff. As example in EVE when they ganked me and blow up my battleship, I lost ship that cost around 300.000.000 (ship + equipment + cargo). That's around 14€ if I remember (if exchange is the same as back then).

    From one fight I could not espace. That is what I love.

    So when you complain about lack of sandbox...think of those that want a PvE sandbox...we literally have no MODERN choices at all. 

    Yeah, because if you want to run around, hold hands and kill some mobs with no real consequences or risk - go play themeparks like TOR, WOW or GW2.

     

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    Personally I think a sandbox mmorpg should be integrated PvE & PvP. And when I say pvp, I mean player interacting with player as well as interacting with Environment for pve. Out of:

    • Scholar
    • Soldier
    • Merchant
    • Crafter

    -> Most people want to play the soldier archetype, so that tends to be where the gameplay is? If the game can provide integration with all the above, it means the soldiers need resources from the pve and items from the crafters and money from the merchants and idk about scholars... perhaps they can work things, upgrade things?

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by StarI
    There's planty of modern choices of what you call sandbox PvE games. It's just that some of us call them themeparks. ;)

    No there isnt.

    Themeparks tend to be questdriven games focused on looting stuff. There are a few hybrids like Vanguard with some sandbox parts but nothing really focused on building stuff which is the main part of real sandbox mechanics.

    Sandboxes have player created content, themeparks usually tells you what to do.

    That is partially the problem of PvE only sandboxes. As you said, sandboxes are about building up. But if you just build up, and not destroy something from time to time your world(healthy population assumed) will be full at some point, and withit a little bit boring. The devs have then to add(almost the same as with themeparks) new content(or land to build things up).

    UO is a parade example of this problem. A world full of houses all over the place. You dont have that problem with minecraft.. just start a new server and everything is good. ;)

    Next problem, which is tied with that one, is that sandbox gameing is all about interaction. Interaction with objects, interaction with the world, interaction with players.. and the AI in most games(and AI generally) is not that good to guarantee dynamic interaction with NPCs, or it is at least very hard and unpredictable to realize. If you envision a world, where the NPCs/NPC factions would interact, with other words attack the player settlements, and destroy withit some of it, or at least generate enough danger for ongoing gameplay, and the world would change dynamically between NPC factions land and players owned and controlled land a PvE only Sandbox would work very well. But such a AI is very hard to implement, and very unpredictable.. a little bit to hard and no player settlement would hold against it, to soft and you encounter the same problem if they would be nonexistent.

    Therefore a PvE/PvP sandbox is, at least in my humble opinion, the way to go. You could even make enough zones PvE safe(or with very limited PvP allowed in it), so that a lot of PvE player would never encounter pvp, or could at least very easy avoid it. But for that, you have to make the PvP game, the territory control game a little bit different.

    Think about EvEs system, think about 3 different types of regions/zones. A safe zone like in Eve, where every kill is either completely impossible, or better like in EvE almost impossible and extremely discouraged. A mid sec zone, where is some protection, but pvp to some extent possible with a few consequences for pvp. And a null sec zone, where pvp is absolutely allowed with no/or limited consequences. And now think about a world with a lot of regions and the ability to switch the state of those regions.(think about old Planetside) At the border of every null sec region just another null sec region or a mid sec region can follow. At the border of every mid sec region every region can be. And finally at the border of a safe zone only mid sec can follow. Let say now your faction/clan/whatever conquer a few regions, and what happens is, that the state of zones change in correlation to the territory of your enemies.

    Example:

    Enemy zone mid sec | Enemyzone null sec | Your zone null sec | Your zone mid sec | Your zone safe

    Now would it be rather predictable for a PvE player and he could decide how much risk he want, and futher more he would see different regions over time. And the world would be dynamically.

    And now make it, that you have a few preset factions, but also the ability to create player factions. The preset factions would be big enough, and would give PvE players give a guidance to follow and to live in. But with the ability for player created factions would also offer enough freedom. Everyone could change his faction, for the preset NPC factions you may have to do something, for player factions it is up to the clan to let you in or not.

    I think with such a ruleset you could generate a sandbox valuable for both PvE players and PvP players. And it would be rather predictable(which is always a good thing for designers) and rather easy to implement.

    And just add some elements, when a zone/region will change it state or when it belongs to whatever faction, as example. Build/controll 3 of 4 castles in one regions and it belongs to you(will be null sec). Controll all castles(min 3) in one region and every region on the border of that one is also yours, and the region becomes mid sec. A region of yours, which is only surrounded of your mid sec regions will become a safe zone.

    And now you could fill those game with almost all thinkable sandbox features, and a lot of others and could make out of it a nice virutal world/mmorpg.

    And just out of curiosity.. would that one be something for you, the sandbox pve player? Or is it to risky that your homezone could become at one point of time a pvp zone, and your virtual estate would be on the line? Or could you handle those predictability and go for it?

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dariuszp
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    So when you complain about lack of sandbox...think of those that want a PvE sandbox...we literally have no MODERN choices at all. 

    Yeah, because if you want to run around, hold hands and kill some mobs with no real consequences or risk - go play themeparks like TOR, WOW or GW2.

     

    No. The better answer would be, go play Minecraft. He want to be creative, he want to have a happy community, he want to build things up. But as you said, a dynamic mmo world dont fit very well for that, but a minecraft server does. If it becomes to full and to boring... create a new one. Or play in a PvP/PvE Sandbox and find your niche as a pve player in a world with pvp.

    And well.. maybe even a PvE only sandbox would work somehow.. but i cant either imagine it how it would work, or that it would work. But maybe my mind is to restricted for that one... i would be interesting to hear how you the PvE Sandbox player would want their world.

  • StarIStarI waka wakaPosts: 924Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Shaike
    Originally posted by StarI
    There's planty of modern choices of what you call sandbox PvE games. It's just that some of us call them themeparks. ;)

    Give examples please because i do not know any......

     

    You don't know any themepark? lol

     

    And no, pure PvE games without certain proper PvP elements are not sandboxes, sorry guys.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by StarI
    Originally posted by Shaike
    Originally posted by StarI
    There's planty of modern choices of what you call sandbox PvE games. It's just that some of us call them themeparks. ;)

    Give examples please because i do not know any......

    You don't know any themepark? lol

    And no, pure PvE games without certain proper PvP elements are not sandboxes, sorry guys.

    By that line of thinking, Lincoln Logs aren't a toy unless you're throwing them at people.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by StarI
    Originally posted by Shaike
    Originally posted by StarI
    There's planty of modern choices of what you call sandbox PvE games. It's just that some of us call them themeparks. ;)

    Give examples please because i do not know any......

    You don't know any themepark? lol

    And no, pure PvE games without certain proper PvP elements are not sandboxes, sorry guys.

    By that line of thinking, Lincoln Logs aren't a toy unless you're throwing them at people.

     

    At least no massive multiplayer toy.

  • StarIStarI waka wakaPosts: 924Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by StarI
    Originally posted by Shaike
    Originally posted by StarI
    There's planty of modern choices of what you call sandbox PvE games. It's just that some of us call them themeparks. ;)

    Give examples please because i do not know any......

    You don't know any themepark? lol

    And no, pure PvE games without certain proper PvP elements are not sandboxes, sorry guys.

    By that line of thinking, Lincoln Logs aren't a toy unless you're throwing them at people.

     

     

    That's your own line you draw out, not mine. Sure it's still toys, there just not sandbox.

«13
Sign In or Register to comment.