Originally posted by evolver1972 Originally posted by kb056I wanna be Uncle Owen....Just saying.
So, you wanna end up just sitting at your house waiting for the bad guys to come kill you?
I think there are a lot of people who would like to be a farmer (Uncle Owen) in a game where there is other stuff happening as well. There are wars happening, giants are being killed, whatever, but the player is building a farm, or running a tavern, whatever. Basically running the old Sim Farm or Sim Town simulations within the domain of a larger game. At the same time, they don't necessarily want to be the sheep that all the wolves feed off of.
This makes sense to me. The environment or lore of WoW is cool, but you don't really want to raid or even do heroics. It would be enough to run a farm or smithy sourcing materials that players would use to do raids or run heroics.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by kb056I wanna be Uncle Owen....Just saying.
So, you wanna end up just sitting at your house waiting for the bad guys to come kill you?
I think there are a lot of people who would like to be a farmer (Uncle Owen) in a game where there is other stuff happening as well. There are wars happening, giants are being killed, whatever, but the player is building a farm, or running a tavern, whatever. Basically running the old Sim Farm or Sim Town simulations within the domain of a larger game. At the same time, they don't necessarily want to be the sheep that all the wolves feed off of.
This makes sense to me. The environment or lore of WoW is cool, but you don't really want to raid or even do heroics. It would be enough to run a farm or smithy sourcing materials that players would use to do raids or run heroics.
I get that. It sounds incredibly boring to me, but I get it. However, my statement still stands. Unless you hired people to be your bodyguards, you'd essentially just be waiting for someone to come kill you....if it was that type of game of course.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Originally posted by evolver1972 Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by evolver1972Originally posted by kb056I wanna be Uncle Owen....Just saying.
So, you wanna end up just sitting at your house waiting for the bad guys to come kill you? I think there are a lot of people who would like to be a farmer (Uncle Owen) in a game where there is other stuff happening as well. There are wars happening, giants are being killed, whatever, but the player is building a farm, or running a tavern, whatever. Basically running the old Sim Farm or Sim Town simulations within the domain of a larger game. At the same time, they don't necessarily want to be the sheep that all the wolves feed off of. This makes sense to me. The environment or lore of WoW is cool, but you don't really want to raid or even do heroics. It would be enough to run a farm or smithy sourcing materials that players would use to do raids or run heroics. I get that. It sounds incredibly boring to me, but I get it. However, my statement still stands. Unless you hired people to be your bodyguards, you'd essentially just be waiting for someone to come kill you....if it was that type of game of course.
That's where the game's setup comes into play. You won't often find a farmer who's really into kill or be killed, but also burn down the farm kind of game play. It's up to a developer to decide if they want to have the kind of game play and make it viable. It could be that being a farmer will work if you're part of a guild that has farmland, or maybe there's protections built into the game so that you can protect a certain area around your farm or something. It's up to the developer whether they want that type of game play to be viable and if so, how they do it.
For instance, focusing on solo game play, let players all start off more or less the same. PvP is allowed in the wilderness, but the map is also pretty large. It should be possible for players to get out into the wilderness and start collecting resources. Initially the player would be very vulnerable, but would still be able to build some sort of safe storage so that even if they are killed, anything they aren't carrying is safe. Once they've collected enough resources or money, they can buy or build some area based protection, so that not only is there stuff safe in protected storage, so long as they are in their protected area, they are safe as well. The area is small, and they have to leave it to collect resources and to sell resources, but it belongs to them. As players come together in guilds, they can build larger safe areas.
Some care would have to be taken to allow both the ownership of land, but also the ability for factions to have sieges against each other. Perhaps the owned land is inviolate, but the land where the factions collect resources have mining rights that can be lost if a faction cannot protect that land. Players can't lose their houses, but they can lose their protected resources zones to other players.
Something like that anyway. Just being a farmer would be boring. Being a farmer in a world where PvP and scripted PvE happens would be interesting.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Orcs Must Die, if you really wanna play tower defense.
You can waste time with your friends when your chores are done.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by kb056I wanna be Uncle Owen....Just saying.
So, you wanna end up just sitting at your house waiting for the bad guys to come kill you?
I think there are a lot of people who would like to be a farmer (Uncle Owen) in a game where there is other stuff happening as well. There are wars happening, giants are being killed, whatever, but the player is building a farm, or running a tavern, whatever. Basically running the old Sim Farm or Sim Town simulations within the domain of a larger game. At the same time, they don't necessarily want to be the sheep that all the wolves feed off of.
This makes sense to me. The environment or lore of WoW is cool, but you don't really want to raid or even do heroics. It would be enough to run a farm or smithy sourcing materials that players would use to do raids or run heroics.
In Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE you had to 'unlock' Jedi through a difficult series of semi-random events. It was a brutal grind. Even worse, grinding Jedi xp often got you on the Bounty Hunter boards.
So in a nutshell, yes I did "sit in my house waiting for bad guys to come kill me" quite a lot of the time... I'd literally be sitting in my locked house buffed as high as possible with spice and muon and pixie, and several bounty hunters would come looking for me right as I was there. It was among the most nerve-wracking times in an MMO ever and I had some of the most memoriable fights ever while playing video games....
Uncle Owen is hands-down the way to go
Wait..then..you're saying that you enjoyed being the hero?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Sorry it bothers you. Perhaps you should choose games that did not descend from RPGs, instead.
The problem is the fact that EVERY game now wants the player to feel important. They do that by giving them a pre-defined story to get the player “involved” in the world following specific quest-paths on rails.
The player is the Hero, the Chosen One! Like everyone else………. But the fact is, the player (ME at least) doesn’t get “involved” in the world… the player simply gets DISTRACTED from the world by following a subpar low quality redundant “story”.
I honestly got bored to death with this concept. Being an English Literature lover, I find all these “stories” lacking and not worth reading most of the time. So forcing me to read/watch/being restricted than actually getting involved is just a waste of my time. To me it’s like watching a 10 minutes car-chase in a movie, if you’re 12 year old this might be your first and you might find it amusing. For me, I’ve seen this shit over 1,000 times already… poking my eyes with my finger would give me a lot more entertainment than watching that shit for the trillionth time.
I think it’s about time to flush that “story” and “quest driven” approach to MMORPGs and bring back old school RPG (the REAL Role Playing experience) where you’re free to do whatever you want in a big dangerous world where you’re nothing but a little bitch.
There are no boring Story-Arches and no hand holding. You are a little weakling in a big dangerous world. YOU make your own adventure, YOU make your choices. Everything is on the table. You can befriend that town by helping them out (NOT BY DOING ERRANDS VISITNG QUEST HUBS) but by actually getting involved in a STATIC content (NOT “DYNAMIC”, SCRIPTED SHIT) or you can just hunt the inhabitant of the town… or steal from them. You can become an Evil Wizard with crappy faction towards good towns or a good Bard who’s always loved in every Tavern in the land.
That freedom of choice IS Role Playing. You "Role Play" a character by making your own adventure and your own choices, not by following a pre-defined path listening to what THEY (your character) say, this is not Role Playing... this is Playing. If you think Role Playing Games are about “leveling” and following quest-hubs then all what I can tell you is this... YOU are the one who should choose a game that did not descend from RPGs and your concept of RPGs is retarded.
The OP's dichotomy is especially interesting in Guild Wars 2 because of the Personal Story vs the Dynamic Events.
In the personal story you are basically on a Heroes Journey kind of story. It starts small but you are always the key element that makes everything work. Then it builds up to finally going against dragons etc.
In Dynamic Events you are basically just one of a number of people helping to do something. It may be something extremely trivial where you are basically nothing more than a farm hands. It may be quite consequential where you are part of an elite strike force. But you are never really described as the key pivitol element.
Having two quite opposite extremes in one game and to be validated as part of the written theme of the lore (rather than merely implied or even left entirely open as in a full sandbox) is quite striking and somewhat off IMO.
I actually prefer the way the Dynamic Event's work. Everyone being on a Hero's Journey is implausible and kind of flat. There are large events in GW2 that are quite spectacular. You really don't need to PS to see spectacular dragon stuff. The Level 80 DE where you fight Jourmag's Champion looks simply amazing especially when your event group tears his wings off and he crash lands all of this occurring in the zone itself not a personal instance. And the way it works out where you need a lot of people doing various things like some to bring down walls with flamethroewers etc and the multiple stages. All that is all far more impressive from a story standpoint. Being part of a huge struggle rather than some dude that starts off normal and is somehow just super special for no real reason.
The DE approach, from a story standpoint, just felt much more interesting and satsifying partially because it was on a grand scale that involved other people, the final PS stuff is on a grand scale but you know in the back of your head you are the only actor. But also because it simply fit what is going on the world better.
You don't need to put Captain America into WW2 to make WW2 an amazing story to tell. But it seems like many writers feel that since its a fantasy they need to add in or make you a super hero. I think actually winds up making things less heroic.
These are hardly roleplaying games. Some game companies are more "roleplay friendly" but that's left to the players to just find a spot, stand around and eke out a story on their own.
When it comes to the larger game world, most games are just a conveyor belt for players to stand on. Some of the more advanced games give us the option to duck or jump as the belt pulls us towards end game. The worst games have their belt stop abruptly at max level.
Pre-CU SWG was great. It pretty much said: "Here. You're on the planet now. See you later, good luck."
Too bad the demographic that such gameplay appeals to is too small for the money game companies are after.
Still, I play them. I migrate from MMO to MMO, hoping to find a game that will let me settle in and do as I please til my hearts content.
I am going to hold out hope that Star Citizen will fill that requirement. It's been said it's not really an MMORPG.
That sounds like a good thing to me, since that term doesn't mean what it used to in my eyes.
Originally posted by kb056I wanna be Uncle Owen....Just saying.
So, you wanna end up just sitting at your house waiting for the bad guys to come kill you?
I think there are a lot of people who would like to be a farmer (Uncle Owen) in a game where there is other stuff happening as well. There are wars happening, giants are being killed, whatever, but the player is building a farm, or running a tavern, whatever. Basically running the old Sim Farm or Sim Town simulations within the domain of a larger game. At the same time, they don't necessarily want to be the sheep that all the wolves feed off of.
This makes sense to me. The environment or lore of WoW is cool, but you don't really want to raid or even do heroics. It would be enough to run a farm or smithy sourcing materials that players would use to do raids or run heroics.
In Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE you had to 'unlock' Jedi through a difficult series of semi-random events. It was a brutal grind. Even worse, grinding Jedi xp often got you on the Bounty Hunter boards.
So in a nutshell, yes I did "sit in my house waiting for bad guys to come kill me" quite a lot of the time... I'd literally be sitting in my locked house buffed as high as possible with spice and muon and pixie, and several bounty hunters would come looking for me right as I was there. It was among the most nerve-wracking times in an MMO ever and I had some of the most memoriable fights ever while playing video games....
Uncle Owen is hands-down the way to go
Really? That sounds increbly boring. How long are you going to wait and do nothing? 1 hour? 10 hours?
The problem is the fact that EVERY game now wants the player to feel important. They do that by giving them a pre-defined story to get the player “involved” in the world following specific quest-paths on rails.
The player is the Hero, the Chosen One! Like everyone else………. But the fact is, the player (ME at least) doesn’t get “involved” in the world… the player simply gets DISTRACTED from the world by following a subpar low quality redundant “story”.
What "problem"? This works quite well in single player games. What "subpar low quality redundan story"? You don't think Deus Ex, Dishonored, FF7 have good stories?
Just hire good writers and you can have good stories. Good writers beat random players by a mile in creating interesting stories.
Originally posted by kb056I wanna be Uncle Owen....Just saying.
So, you wanna end up just sitting at your house waiting for the bad guys to come kill you?
I think there are a lot of people who would like to be a farmer (Uncle Owen) in a game where there is other stuff happening as well. There are wars happening, giants are being killed, whatever, but the player is building a farm, or running a tavern, whatever. Basically running the old Sim Farm or Sim Town simulations within the domain of a larger game. At the same time, they don't necessarily want to be the sheep that all the wolves feed off of.
This makes sense to me. The environment or lore of WoW is cool, but you don't really want to raid or even do heroics. It would be enough to run a farm or smithy sourcing materials that players would use to do raids or run heroics.
In Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE you had to 'unlock' Jedi through a difficult series of semi-random events. It was a brutal grind. Even worse, grinding Jedi xp often got you on the Bounty Hunter boards.
So in a nutshell, yes I did "sit in my house waiting for bad guys to come kill me" quite a lot of the time... I'd literally be sitting in my locked house buffed as high as possible with spice and muon and pixie, and several bounty hunters would come looking for me right as I was there. It was among the most nerve-wracking times in an MMO ever and I had some of the most memoriable fights ever while playing video games....
Uncle Owen is hands-down the way to go
Really? That sounds increbly boring. How long are you going to wait and do nothing? 1 hour? 10 hours?
I will pass on this kind of non-game.
You dont seem to like any kind of game then because at that time when you are just waiting ,other people are thinking,maybe you cant think?
Originally posted by kb056I wanna be Uncle Owen....Just saying.
So, you wanna end up just sitting at your house waiting for the bad guys to come kill you?
I think there are a lot of people who would like to be a farmer (Uncle Owen) in a game where there is other stuff happening as well. There are wars happening, giants are being killed, whatever, but the player is building a farm, or running a tavern, whatever. Basically running the old Sim Farm or Sim Town simulations within the domain of a larger game. At the same time, they don't necessarily want to be the sheep that all the wolves feed off of.
This makes sense to me. The environment or lore of WoW is cool, but you don't really want to raid or even do heroics. It would be enough to run a farm or smithy sourcing materials that players would use to do raids or run heroics.
In Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE you had to 'unlock' Jedi through a difficult series of semi-random events. It was a brutal grind. Even worse, grinding Jedi xp often got you on the Bounty Hunter boards.
So in a nutshell, yes I did "sit in my house waiting for bad guys to come kill me" quite a lot of the time... I'd literally be sitting in my locked house buffed as high as possible with spice and muon and pixie, and several bounty hunters would come looking for me right as I was there. It was among the most nerve-wracking times in an MMO ever and I had some of the most memoriable fights ever while playing video games....
Uncle Owen is hands-down the way to go
Really? That sounds increbly boring. How long are you going to wait and do nothing? 1 hour? 10 hours?
I will pass on this kind of non-game.
There are consequences of your decisions in sandbox games, hard to imagine for you I know. I realize you're perfectly content being hand-led down a linear path of choices made for you but some gamers actually like freedom to choose their own path.
Yeah, freedom can be boring at times depending on what decisions you make. Freedom can also be the most exhilerating gaming experience a gamer can have.
I choose freedom.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Originally posted by kb056 I wanna be Uncle Owen....Just saying.
So, you wanna end up just sitting at your house waiting for the bad guys to come kill you?
In his own way Uncle Owen was a hero. He was a pioneer, trying to tame a hostile world. As a moisture farmer on a desert planet he provided a vital service and was building a future for his family. Over the years he must have fought off raider attacks and wild beasts. At the time of the movie he was buying new droids so he could expand his operations.
There is a difference between playing a 'peon' and an 'Uncle Owen'. A peopn just grinds away at a task and never accomplishes anything importnat. An Uncle Owen is trying to build something on his own and progress along a non-combat path.
Ultimately it is all about imagination. People who complain about stories in themeparks seem to be deficient in the imagination department. If there is a pre-made story laid out, they refuse to play out their own stories and become obssessed with following the pre-made story path.
Originally posted by kb056 I wanna be Uncle Owen....Just saying.
So, you wanna end up just sitting at your house waiting for the bad guys to come kill you?
People who complain about stories in themeparks seem to be deficient in the imagination department.
Or perhaps it's because they realize there's only so many ways you can press a lever in a themepark to get the reward.
In themeparks, imagination comes from the designers and the game is so linear that thinking outside the box is either impossible or boring.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
You dont seem to like any kind of game then because at that time when you are just waiting ,other people are thinking,maybe you cant think?
Doing nothing equate thinking? Where do you get that? And if i want to think (like optimize my dps by gear chose), i can always do it OUTSIDE of the game. It is no fun for a game to force you to wait.
I think whenever i want to, not when a game force me to.
Really? That sounds increbly boring. How long are you going to wait and do nothing? 1 hour? 10 hours?
I will pass on this kind of non-game.
There are consequences of your decisions in sandbox games, hard to imagine for you I know. I realize you're perfectly content being hand-led down a linear path of choices made for you but some gamers actually like freedom to choose their own path.
Yeah, freedom can be boring at times depending on what decisions you make. Freedom can also be the most exhilerating gaming experience a gamer can have.
I choose freedom.
Waiting hours for someone to kill you is NOT a decision. And I choose fun. Freedom to sit around to do nothing is not freedom, and no fun.
And it is silly to imply that there is no consequences of decision in themepark game. For example, gear optimization is a big, and often sophisticated decision that may involves the use of 3rd party tools.
You dont seem to like any kind of game then because at that time when you are just waiting ,other people are thinking,maybe you cant think?
Doing nothing equate thinking? Where do you get that? And if i want to think (like optimize my dps by gear chose), i can always do it OUTSIDE of the game. It is no fun for a game to force you to wait.
I think whenever i want to, not when a game force me to.
Thats your problem ,you only see that he is doing "nothing" but he is actually doing many kind of things.
You can test this,go to Compton in the middle of the night,sit down there and just wait.
You dont seem to like any kind of game then because at that time when you are just waiting ,other people are thinking,maybe you cant think?
Doing nothing equate thinking? Where do you get that? And if i want to think (like optimize my dps by gear chose), i can always do it OUTSIDE of the game. It is no fun for a game to force you to wait.
I think whenever i want to, not when a game force me to.
Thats your problem ,you only see that he is doing "nothing" but he is actually doing many kind of things.
You can test this,go to Compton in the middle of the night,sit down there and just wait.
Or think what might happen,its up to you,.
Doing what? He said "waiting". Waiting in fear is still waiting.
And why is this a problem? I don't have to play a game that forces me to wait, and i won't.
There is no problem. I will fire up Planetside 2 and kill some stuff NOW (or whenever i want).
You dont seem to like any kind of game then because at that time when you are just waiting ,other people are thinking,maybe you cant think?
Doing nothing equate thinking? Where do you get that? And if i want to think (like optimize my dps by gear chose), i can always do it OUTSIDE of the game. It is no fun for a game to force you to wait.
I think whenever i want to, not when a game force me to.
Thats your problem ,you only see that he is doing "nothing" but he is actually doing many kind of things.
You can test this,go to Compton in the middle of the night,sit down there and just wait.
Or think what might happen,its up to you,.
Doing what? He said "waiting". Waiting in fear is still waiting.
And why is this a problem? I don't have to play a game that forces me to wait, and i won't.
There is no problem. I will fire up Planetside 2 and kill some stuff NOW (or whenever i want).
"Really? That sounds increbly boring. How long are you going to wait and do nothing? 1 hour? 10 hours?
I will pass on this kind of non-game."
What you are saying just doesnt make sense and i bet you know that.
You dont seem to like any kind of game then because at that time when you are just waiting ,other people are thinking,maybe you cant think?
Doing nothing equate thinking? Where do you get that? And if i want to think (like optimize my dps by gear chose), i can always do it OUTSIDE of the game. It is no fun for a game to force you to wait.
I think whenever i want to, not when a game force me to.
Thats your problem ,you only see that he is doing "nothing" but he is actually doing many kind of things.
You can test this,go to Compton in the middle of the night,sit down there and just wait.
Or think what might happen,its up to you,.
Doing what? He said "waiting". Waiting in fear is still waiting.
And why is this a problem? I don't have to play a game that forces me to wait, and i won't.
There is no problem. I will fire up Planetside 2 and kill some stuff NOW (or whenever i want).
"Really? That sounds increbly boring. How long are you going to wait and do nothing? 1 hour? 10 hours?
I will pass on this kind of non-game."
What you are saying just doesnt make sense and i bet you know that.
What does not make sense?
And i quote .. ."So in a nutshell, yes I did "sit in my house waiting for bad guys to come kill me" quite a lot of the time"
So we are talking about waiting in a house "quite a lot of the time". Why it does not make sense for me to DISLIKE waiting?
Originally posted by kb056 I wanna be Uncle Owen....Just saying.
So, you wanna end up just sitting at your house waiting for the bad guys to come kill you?
People who complain about stories in themeparks seem to be deficient in the imagination department.
Or perhaps it's because they realize there's only so many ways you can press a lever in a themepark to get the reward.
In themeparks, imagination comes from the designers and the game is so linear that thinking outside the box is either impossible or boring.
That's why I called it a deficiency in the imagnation department. They are only able to play themepark games in terms of 'levers' and 'rewards' and fail to think outside that box. They lack the imagination to even consider that there is something outside the narrow box they have locked themselves in. They fail to see the myriad possible ways to play out their own stories in a themepark game.
Originally posted by kb056 I wanna be Uncle Owen....Just saying.
So, you wanna end up just sitting at your house waiting for the bad guys to come kill you?
People who complain about stories in themeparks seem to be deficient in the imagination department.
Or perhaps it's because they realize there's only so many ways you can press a lever in a themepark to get the reward.
In themeparks, imagination comes from the designers and the game is so linear that thinking outside the box is either impossible or boring.
That's why I called it a deficiency in the imagnation department. They are only able to play themepark games in terms of 'levers' and 'rewards' and fail to think outside that box. They lack the imagination to even consider that there is something outside the narrow box they have locked themselves in. They fail to see the myriad possible ways to play out their own stories in a themepark game.
or may be they just don't want to? I *can* write a story, but why would i when someone else is doing it for me?
You fail to see that games are entertainment, and some want to BE entertained, as opposed to create their own stories, even if they can, and entertain themselves.
You dont seem to like any kind of game then because at that time when you are just waiting ,other people are thinking,maybe you cant think?
Doing nothing equate thinking? Where do you get that? And if i want to think (like optimize my dps by gear chose), i can always do it OUTSIDE of the game. It is no fun for a game to force you to wait.
I think whenever i want to, not when a game force me to.
Thats your problem ,you only see that he is doing "nothing" but he is actually doing many kind of things.
You can test this,go to Compton in the middle of the night,sit down there and just wait.
Or think what might happen,its up to you,.
Doing what? He said "waiting". Waiting in fear is still waiting.
And why is this a problem? I don't have to play a game that forces me to wait, and i won't.
There is no problem. I will fire up Planetside 2 and kill some stuff NOW (or whenever i want).
"Really? That sounds increbly boring. How long are you going to wait and do nothing? 1 hour? 10 hours?
I will pass on this kind of non-game."
What you are saying just doesnt make sense and i bet you know that.
What does not make sense?
And i quote .. ."So in a nutshell, yes I did "sit in my house waiting for bad guys to come kill me" quite a lot of the time"
So we are talking about waiting in a house "quite a lot of the time". Why it does not make sense for me to DISLIKE waiting?
You dont seem to like any kind of game then because at that time when you are just waiting ,other people are thinking,maybe you cant think?
Doing nothing equate thinking? Where do you get that? And if i want to think (like optimize my dps by gear chose), i can always do it OUTSIDE of the game. It is no fun for a game to force you to wait.
I think whenever i want to, not when a game force me to.
Thats your problem ,you only see that he is doing "nothing" but he is actually doing many kind of things.
You can test this,go to Compton in the middle of the night,sit down there and just wait.
Or think what might happen,its up to you,.
Doing what? He said "waiting". Waiting in fear is still waiting.
And why is this a problem? I don't have to play a game that forces me to wait, and i won't.
There is no problem. I will fire up Planetside 2 and kill some stuff NOW (or whenever i want).
"Really? That sounds increbly boring. How long are you going to wait and do nothing? 1 hour? 10 hours?
I will pass on this kind of non-game."
What you are saying just doesnt make sense and i bet you know that.
What does not make sense?
And i quote .. ."So in a nutshell, yes I did "sit in my house waiting for bad guys to come kill me" quite a lot of the time"
So we are talking about waiting in a house "quite a lot of the time". Why it does not make sense for me to DISLIKE waiting?
I take that as a yes.
I think you are confused and cannot grasp a simple point that some people are just impatient. But that is ok.
I would recommend Minecraft for open crafting with no story or any FPS out there for meaningless PvP if you don't want a storyline or quests. Stop playing RPG story based games.
Comments
I think there are a lot of people who would like to be a farmer (Uncle Owen) in a game where there is other stuff happening as well. There are wars happening, giants are being killed, whatever, but the player is building a farm, or running a tavern, whatever. Basically running the old Sim Farm or Sim Town simulations within the domain of a larger game. At the same time, they don't necessarily want to be the sheep that all the wolves feed off of.
This makes sense to me. The environment or lore of WoW is cool, but you don't really want to raid or even do heroics. It would be enough to run a farm or smithy sourcing materials that players would use to do raids or run heroics.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I get that. It sounds incredibly boring to me, but I get it. However, my statement still stands. Unless you hired people to be your bodyguards, you'd essentially just be waiting for someone to come kill you....if it was that type of game of course.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
I think there are a lot of people who would like to be a farmer (Uncle Owen) in a game where there is other stuff happening as well. There are wars happening, giants are being killed, whatever, but the player is building a farm, or running a tavern, whatever. Basically running the old Sim Farm or Sim Town simulations within the domain of a larger game. At the same time, they don't necessarily want to be the sheep that all the wolves feed off of. This makes sense to me. The environment or lore of WoW is cool, but you don't really want to raid or even do heroics. It would be enough to run a farm or smithy sourcing materials that players would use to do raids or run heroics.
I get that. It sounds incredibly boring to me, but I get it. However, my statement still stands. Unless you hired people to be your bodyguards, you'd essentially just be waiting for someone to come kill you....if it was that type of game of course.
That's where the game's setup comes into play. You won't often find a farmer who's really into kill or be killed, but also burn down the farm kind of game play. It's up to a developer to decide if they want to have the kind of game play and make it viable. It could be that being a farmer will work if you're part of a guild that has farmland, or maybe there's protections built into the game so that you can protect a certain area around your farm or something. It's up to the developer whether they want that type of game play to be viable and if so, how they do it.
For instance, focusing on solo game play, let players all start off more or less the same. PvP is allowed in the wilderness, but the map is also pretty large. It should be possible for players to get out into the wilderness and start collecting resources. Initially the player would be very vulnerable, but would still be able to build some sort of safe storage so that even if they are killed, anything they aren't carrying is safe. Once they've collected enough resources or money, they can buy or build some area based protection, so that not only is there stuff safe in protected storage, so long as they are in their protected area, they are safe as well. The area is small, and they have to leave it to collect resources and to sell resources, but it belongs to them. As players come together in guilds, they can build larger safe areas.
Some care would have to be taken to allow both the ownership of land, but also the ability for factions to have sieges against each other. Perhaps the owned land is inviolate, but the land where the factions collect resources have mining rights that can be lost if a faction cannot protect that land. Players can't lose their houses, but they can lose their protected resources zones to other players.
Something like that anyway. Just being a farmer would be boring. Being a farmer in a world where PvP and scripted PvE happens would be interesting.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Orcs Must Die, if you really wanna play tower defense.
You can waste time with your friends when your chores are done.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Wait..then..you're saying that you enjoyed being the hero?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The problem is the fact that EVERY game now wants the player to feel important. They do that by giving them a pre-defined story to get the player “involved” in the world following specific quest-paths on rails.
The player is the Hero, the Chosen One! Like everyone else………. But the fact is, the player (ME at least) doesn’t get “involved” in the world… the player simply gets DISTRACTED from the world by following a subpar low quality redundant “story”.
I honestly got bored to death with this concept. Being an English Literature lover, I find all these “stories” lacking and not worth reading most of the time. So forcing me to read/watch/being restricted than actually getting involved is just a waste of my time. To me it’s like watching a 10 minutes car-chase in a movie, if you’re 12 year old this might be your first and you might find it amusing. For me, I’ve seen this shit over 1,000 times already… poking my eyes with my finger would give me a lot more entertainment than watching that shit for the trillionth time.
I think it’s about time to flush that “story” and “quest driven” approach to MMORPGs and bring back old school RPG (the REAL Role Playing experience) where you’re free to do whatever you want in a big dangerous world where you’re nothing but a little bitch.
There are no boring Story-Arches and no hand holding. You are a little weakling in a big dangerous world. YOU make your own adventure, YOU make your choices. Everything is on the table. You can befriend that town by helping them out (NOT BY DOING ERRANDS VISITNG QUEST HUBS) but by actually getting involved in a STATIC content (NOT “DYNAMIC”, SCRIPTED SHIT) or you can just hunt the inhabitant of the town… or steal from them. You can become an Evil Wizard with crappy faction towards good towns or a good Bard who’s always loved in every Tavern in the land.
That freedom of choice IS Role Playing. You "Role Play" a character by making your own adventure and your own choices, not by following a pre-defined path listening to what THEY (your character) say, this is not Role Playing... this is Playing. If you think Role Playing Games are about “leveling” and following quest-hubs then all what I can tell you is this... YOU are the one who should choose a game that did not descend from RPGs and your concept of RPGs is retarded.
The OP's dichotomy is especially interesting in Guild Wars 2 because of the Personal Story vs the Dynamic Events.
In the personal story you are basically on a Heroes Journey kind of story. It starts small but you are always the key element that makes everything work. Then it builds up to finally going against dragons etc.
In Dynamic Events you are basically just one of a number of people helping to do something. It may be something extremely trivial where you are basically nothing more than a farm hands. It may be quite consequential where you are part of an elite strike force. But you are never really described as the key pivitol element.
Having two quite opposite extremes in one game and to be validated as part of the written theme of the lore (rather than merely implied or even left entirely open as in a full sandbox) is quite striking and somewhat off IMO.
I actually prefer the way the Dynamic Event's work. Everyone being on a Hero's Journey is implausible and kind of flat. There are large events in GW2 that are quite spectacular. You really don't need to PS to see spectacular dragon stuff. The Level 80 DE where you fight Jourmag's Champion looks simply amazing especially when your event group tears his wings off and he crash lands all of this occurring in the zone itself not a personal instance. And the way it works out where you need a lot of people doing various things like some to bring down walls with flamethroewers etc and the multiple stages. All that is all far more impressive from a story standpoint. Being part of a huge struggle rather than some dude that starts off normal and is somehow just super special for no real reason.
The DE approach, from a story standpoint, just felt much more interesting and satsifying partially because it was on a grand scale that involved other people, the final PS stuff is on a grand scale but you know in the back of your head you are the only actor. But also because it simply fit what is going on the world better.
You don't need to put Captain America into WW2 to make WW2 an amazing story to tell. But it seems like many writers feel that since its a fantasy they need to add in or make you a super hero. I think actually winds up making things less heroic.
OP is right.
These are hardly roleplaying games. Some game companies are more "roleplay friendly" but that's left to the players to just find a spot, stand around and eke out a story on their own.
When it comes to the larger game world, most games are just a conveyor belt for players to stand on. Some of the more advanced games give us the option to duck or jump as the belt pulls us towards end game. The worst games have their belt stop abruptly at max level.
Pre-CU SWG was great. It pretty much said: "Here. You're on the planet now. See you later, good luck."
Too bad the demographic that such gameplay appeals to is too small for the money game companies are after.
Still, I play them. I migrate from MMO to MMO, hoping to find a game that will let me settle in and do as I please til my hearts content.
I am going to hold out hope that Star Citizen will fill that requirement. It's been said it's not really an MMORPG.
That sounds like a good thing to me, since that term doesn't mean what it used to in my eyes.
Really? That sounds increbly boring. How long are you going to wait and do nothing? 1 hour? 10 hours?
I will pass on this kind of non-game.
What "problem"? This works quite well in single player games. What "subpar low quality redundan story"? You don't think Deus Ex, Dishonored, FF7 have good stories?
Just hire good writers and you can have good stories. Good writers beat random players by a mile in creating interesting stories.
You dont seem to like any kind of game then because at that time when you are just waiting ,other people are thinking,maybe you cant think?
Let's internet
There are consequences of your decisions in sandbox games, hard to imagine for you I know. I realize you're perfectly content being hand-led down a linear path of choices made for you but some gamers actually like freedom to choose their own path.
Yeah, freedom can be boring at times depending on what decisions you make. Freedom can also be the most exhilerating gaming experience a gamer can have.
I choose freedom.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
In his own way Uncle Owen was a hero. He was a pioneer, trying to tame a hostile world. As a moisture farmer on a desert planet he provided a vital service and was building a future for his family. Over the years he must have fought off raider attacks and wild beasts. At the time of the movie he was buying new droids so he could expand his operations.
There is a difference between playing a 'peon' and an 'Uncle Owen'. A peopn just grinds away at a task and never accomplishes anything importnat. An Uncle Owen is trying to build something on his own and progress along a non-combat path.
Ultimately it is all about imagination. People who complain about stories in themeparks seem to be deficient in the imagination department. If there is a pre-made story laid out, they refuse to play out their own stories and become obssessed with following the pre-made story path.
Or perhaps it's because they realize there's only so many ways you can press a lever in a themepark to get the reward.
In themeparks, imagination comes from the designers and the game is so linear that thinking outside the box is either impossible or boring.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Doing nothing equate thinking? Where do you get that? And if i want to think (like optimize my dps by gear chose), i can always do it OUTSIDE of the game. It is no fun for a game to force you to wait.
I think whenever i want to, not when a game force me to.
Waiting hours for someone to kill you is NOT a decision. And I choose fun. Freedom to sit around to do nothing is not freedom, and no fun.
And it is silly to imply that there is no consequences of decision in themepark game. For example, gear optimization is a big, and often sophisticated decision that may involves the use of 3rd party tools.
Thats your problem ,you only see that he is doing "nothing" but he is actually doing many kind of things.
You can test this,go to Compton in the middle of the night,sit down there and just wait.
Or think what might happen,its up to you,.
Let's internet
Doing what? He said "waiting". Waiting in fear is still waiting.
And why is this a problem? I don't have to play a game that forces me to wait, and i won't.
There is no problem. I will fire up Planetside 2 and kill some stuff NOW (or whenever i want).
"Really? That sounds increbly boring. How long are you going to wait and do nothing? 1 hour? 10 hours?
I will pass on this kind of non-game."
What you are saying just doesnt make sense and i bet you know that.
Let's internet
What does not make sense?
And i quote .. ."So in a nutshell, yes I did "sit in my house waiting for bad guys to come kill me" quite a lot of the time"
So we are talking about waiting in a house "quite a lot of the time". Why it does not make sense for me to DISLIKE waiting?
That's why I called it a deficiency in the imagnation department. They are only able to play themepark games in terms of 'levers' and 'rewards' and fail to think outside that box. They lack the imagination to even consider that there is something outside the narrow box they have locked themselves in. They fail to see the myriad possible ways to play out their own stories in a themepark game.
or may be they just don't want to? I *can* write a story, but why would i when someone else is doing it for me?
You fail to see that games are entertainment, and some want to BE entertained, as opposed to create their own stories, even if they can, and entertain themselves.
I take that as a yes.
Let's internet
I think you are confused and cannot grasp a simple point that some people are just impatient. But that is ok.